Evolution
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The problem with focusing on religion and science going hand in hand is that not everyone believes in the same religion, and a lot of people don't follow any religion period. Scientific evidence, however, can usually not be disputed, and strives for FACTUAL EVIDENCE, vs. what cannot be proven.
Again, I'm not suggesting that scientists proclaim there is a God and support any specific type of religion. I'm saying religious scholars/theologians should not try to dispute science, and scientists should not try to dispute religion. Regarding FACTUAL EVIDENCE, there have been plenty of incidents where science disputes its own evidence.0 -
As far as scientific evidence not being disputed....it happens all the time. Science disputes scientific evidence all the time.Scientific evidence, however, can usually not be disputed, and strives for FACTUAL EVIDENCE, vs. what cannot be proven.
Religious scholars, whether Christian or non-Christian, can find common ground. I'm not asking for scientists to claim there is a God. I'm saying many won't try to dispute it.Religious people always want science and religion to go hand in hand (if they're willing to concede that science exists :laugh:) but it's only THEIR religion that they are willing to accept.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that many scientists won't try to dispute religion?
And yes, I understand science disputes its own evidence..but they're at least striving to find the truth, whereas religion offers an unyielding explanation that cannot be proven and is expected to be trusted with faith alone. Which is fine, if that's what someone believes, but they cannot simply say "that's how it happened" with no proof.0 -
People who don't believe in evolution ignore the fact that evolution happens every day. It's why antibiotics stop working, for one thing. It's why the plague stopped killing people in Europe by the 17th century. Of course, there is plenty of room for your God. After all, an omnipotent god doesn't need to design everything. A god could set the whole process in motion by throwing two rocks together and know that billions of years later we would be writing this thread.0
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I believe in evolution because I injured my damn tailbone, and if we didn't evolve from something that used to have a flipping tail, then I wouldn't have to deal with this pain!!!!0
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People who don't believe in evolution ignore the fact that evolution happens every day. It's why antibiotics stop working, for one thing. It's why the plague stopped killing people in Europe by the 17th century. Of course, there is plenty of room for your God. After all, an omnipotent god doesn't need to design everything. A god could set the whole process in motion by throwing two rocks together and know that billions of years later we would be writing this thread.
I think "not believing" translates to "not understanding". As I said before, you can't debate whether or not evolution occurs, because its been scientifically proven. However, you can debate the starting of the earth... as that has yet to be proven scientifically. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see in 500 years people saying "You mean, they ACTUALLY thought a 'magical being' created the earth, thats too funny its obviously _______" ( blank = hopefully find out within the next 500 or so years?)0 -
:laugh:I believe in evolution because I injured my damn tailbone, and if we didn't evolve from something that used to have a flipping tail, then I wouldn't have to deal with this pain!!!!
I'm sorry for your pain. BTDT. Ouch! Who would have thought how much you use your tailbone area for besides sitting?0 -
:laugh:I believe in evolution because I injured my damn tailbone, and if we didn't evolve from something that used to have a flipping tail, then I wouldn't have to deal with this pain!!!!
I'm sorry for your pain. BTDT. Ouch! Who would have thought how much you use your tailbone area for besides sitting?
I know right! And for the most part, it doesn't really bother me much if I'm standing or lying down. But sitting is a chore, and driving really sucks. I don't even know what exactly happened to it---I just know that it happened when I sat up from doing crunches, and I leaned to one side to stand up and felt a pop or something move in that area. It was horribly painful the first few days. Now it's not quite so bad, but I can't sit down normal yet, I still have to lean to the side or sit forward so there's no pressure on it. Every now and again, if I shift too far back towards 'center' while sitting, I feel something pop. i'm so done with stupid tailbone pain!0 -
Thanks Patti. I don't care for science being disrespected, mostly for the reason that WE'RE ON THE INTERNET! Don't tell me scientists are full of it while you type words that are instantly translated into binary code and spread by a world wide digital signal. I equate it to going into someone's church and saying God isn't real. I'd think that showed horrible manners.
You are correct, Brett. We're on the internet typing words that are instantly translated into binary code and spread by a world wide digital system. Science should never be disrespected. However, if we were mere atoms and matter, we would not be able to even discuss these issues. Because we're able to discuss evolution, science, the existence of God, etc, suggests to me that we are far more than just scientific matter.0 -
im really surprised this is even a debate??0
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Atoms and molecules don't just float around randomly. They are put together in different ways make different compounds and materials. It's not just a simple lumping it all together. Cloride is an element that is highly toxic and will eat away at metal. Combine it with sodium and it becomes table salt. Carbon dioxide is something we exhale. It's part of the air. Take away one molecule of oxygen and it becomes carbon monoxide which is deadly. Those are just simple, 2 element compounds that can be changed radically with the addition or subtraction of 1 element. Imagine what happens when you get into much more complex compounds and start changing one or 2 things.0
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Just a word about Physicists and religion... Many of the greatest physicists were also profoundly religious, seeing the wonderful order and beauty of the universe as evidence of a power greater than can be comprehended by mans' limited scope. Einstein, for example, may not have believed in a personal God, but he also had this to say:
“I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 43.
and also:
“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”
Albert Einstein, upon being asked if he believed in God by Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogue, New York, April 24, 1921, published in the New York Times, April 25, 1929
Unusually, I am with MacPatti on this (please don't faint in surprise
!) - I don't believe that science and religion are necessarily exclusive. The allegories used in the Bible to explain Creation, like all allegories, are not to be read literally. As many have said, evolution is continuous and visible, and as such, the evidence cannot be denied, yet we know so little, and understand even less in real terms about the beginnings of life, and are simultaneously witness daily to the multitudinous variations of design that surround us in the natural world. To believe that evolution exists is not necessarily to deny the existence of a Creative Intelligence (God in Judaeo-Christian heritage), nor vice versa.
Science deals in facts, as they are currently understood, but produces theories, which implies an uncertainty - something more or less proved, but open to review and reinterpretation as further knowledge is gained. In a side note, something which just struck me - the Greek root of this word is Theos - meaning God. A theory could therefore literally be explained as a looking at or exploration of the workings of God. The word 'theoria' is also still used in theological research and debate - another thing science and religion have in common.
As Einstein also said: "Question everything"! He would not be surprised, and I suspect would be delighted, that the first steps to disproving his apparently unassailable e=mc2 have recently been taken. Science is never unassailable, and many 'mysteries' have been demystified in the course of time, as our understanding evolves - there is always more to learn, and to quote another of my favourite thinkers:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act 1,Sc. V0 -
im really surprised this is even a debate??
Meaning?0 -
Unusually, I am with MacPatti on this (please don't faint in surprise !)
:laugh:0 -
im really surprised this is even a debate??
Meaning?
I would guess that for the poster saying it, and any of us who've looked into the matter and learned about evolution, there's no argument. It's a fact. It'd be like arguing against gravity or the shape of the Earth. I understand if some people prefer to follow ancient texts, they have that right. But they can still be wrong about things.
And the religious argument AGAINST evolution is just childish and ridiculous (note Patti I'm not saying you or your church makes such arguments. I get that Catholics accept the truth of evolution).
There are people out there who honestly believe that all the fossils we've discovered were placed there by "the devil". To me viewing the world in this way is primitive. Things don't work like that. There aren't little demons running around trying to screw up our scientific understanding of the universe. It's 2011. Grow up.0 -
And the religious argument AGAINST evolution is just childish and ridiculous (note Patti I'm not saying you or your church makes such arguments. I get that Catholics accept the truth of evolution).
I don't know that I'd use the words "childish" or "ridiculous". Maybe ignorant or uneducated (in the true sense of those words). I think some people don't know enough and feel like their abondoning their faith if they "believe in evolution". I'm married to a theologian and my vocation has me studying, discussin, thinking of these issues. For many others, they just want to remain loyal to their faith, and don't really understand it all.0 -
And the religious argument AGAINST evolution is just childish and ridiculous (note Patti I'm not saying you or your church makes such arguments. I get that Catholics accept the truth of evolution).
I don't know that I'd use the words "childish" or "ridiculous". Maybe ignorant or uneducated (in the true sense of those words). I think some people don't know enough and feel like their abondoning their faith if they "believe in evolution". I'm married to a theologian and my vocation has me studying, discussin, thinking of these issues. For many others, they just want to remain loyal to their faith, and don't really understand it all.
I hate to say it, but I think a lot of people are more comfortable being told what to think, whether that's by a teacher, a religious leader, a government, the media, or many other mouthpieces, and prefer not to think critically about what they're hearing, or to ask questions that might highlight fallacies or inaccuracies in what they're being told. Indubitably, it's a more comfortable way to live... Thankfully, this doesn't apply to anyone on this thread! It's great to have somewhere to discuss these contentious issues. :happy:0 -
im really surprised this is even a debate??
Meaning?
meaning, i assumed it had stopped being debated around the same time as the world being flat V sphere debate was settled.0 -
meaning, i assumed it had stopped being debated around the same time as the world being flat V sphere debate was settled.
I think we've actually got beyond debating it in this thread, and are more discussing issues related to it.0 -
by page 2? I dont think responding to the OP whilst only on page 2 means im derailing the thread particularly0
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by page 2? I dont think responding to the OP whilst only on page 2 means im derailing the thread particularly
No.....I didn't mean it like that. I was trying to get you to join the ongoing discussion. Sorry it came across as accusing you of derailing...not my intention.0 -
by page 2? I dont think responding to the OP whilst only on page 2 means im derailing the thread particularly
I think that's kind of the proves your point though.
My page 2 there was so little debate on "does evolution exist" because there's nothing to debate. It does, its proven scientifically. The only room for debate on this issue is on HOW the world started. and even that was oddly agreed upon by many, if no one knows for sure... no one wants to give a definitive answer it seems0 -
meaning, i assumed it had stopped being debated around the same time as the world being flat V sphere debate was settled.
I think we've actually got beyond debating it in this thread, and are more discussing issues related to it.
Agreed - we all seem to concur that evolution exists - now we're on to context and the grey areas - so much more fun :flowerforyou:0 -
The real tragedy is the number of schools not teaching it. Why? Fear of religion.
Even though most schools have no legal obstacle in teaching it, they know what a headache they can be in for. They know parents will protest. So teachers end up shoving evolution to the end of the year and then run out of time to teach it.
It's such a shame because it's truly a beautiful way of understanding life.0 -
The real tragedy is the number of schools not teaching it. Why? Fear of religion.
Even though most schools have no legal obstacle in teaching it, they know what a headache they can be in for. They know parents will protest. So teachers end up shoving evolution to the end of the year and then run out of time to teach it.
It's such a shame because it's truly a beautiful way of understanding life.
If teachers were able to teach evolution with the religious component, we wouldn't have such an issue. The problem is that God has been forced out of many schools. The problem isn't "fear of religion". The problem is those opposed to religion.0 -
I believe in evolution because I injured my damn tailbone, and if we didn't evolve from something that used to have a flipping tail, then I wouldn't have to deal with this pain!!!!
I feel your pain (literally)! I broke my tailbone into 3 pieces when I was kid. Hurt like HELL! Apparently they can't fix that, either.
What were we talking about again?0 -
If teachers were able to teach evolution with the religious component, we wouldn't have such an issue. The problem is that God has been forced out of many schools. The problem isn't "fear of religion". The problem is those opposed to religion.
Schools are secular. You can't teach religion in them. If so, which do you think they should teach? (rhetorical question, just trying to point out WHY we have separation of church and state.)
Also a science class, where evolution would be taught, can't say anything about God. Science is about evidence and that which can be measured, studied and tested.0 -
I'm not suggesting secular schools teach religion, but I don't see why they cannot at least teach that "believing in evolution" does not mean abandoning one's faith.Schools are secular. You can't teach religion in them.Also a science class, where evolution would be taught, can't say anything about God. Science is about evidence and that which can be measured, studied and tested.
The existence of God is a whole other topic! To me, not believing in the Bible is the same as not believing in history books with historical data (but we'll save that for another debate).
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god has no place in school or state. religion is a personal choice to believe in something and nothing more. i'm also surprised it's a debate because i've never in my life met someone who didn't believe in evolution, and so it would never occur to me to ask.
the idea that people don't believe in it because they have no understanding of it and dont want to betray their religion is a little scary and not a great advert for religion.0 -
I'm not suggesting secular schools teach religion, but I don't see why they cannot at least teach that "believing in evolution" does not mean abandoning one's faith.
The existence of God is a whole other topic! To me, not believing in the Bible is the same as not believing in history books with historical data (but we'll save that for another debate).
Oooh Patti you're getting so good with the quote function I can barely keep up!
Thanks. I thought you meant state schools. Glad to see we don't disagree there. I will say it's gotta be tough for teachers. It's not like it used to be, we see that evolution is pretty widely believed these days. But not everywhere. While teachers may not have to worry about legal challenges like they used to they do have to worry about angry parents.
Intelligent design's attempt to shoehorn itself into the debate was (eventually) laughed out of the schools in Dover, a very interesting case for anyone not familiar with it.0 -
god has no place in school or state. religion is a personal choice to believe in something and nothing more. i'm also surprised it's a debate because i've never in my life met someone who didn't believe in evolution, and so it would never occur to me to ask
Maybe to you God has no place in school or state, but that saddens many of us. We can speak about God without trying to convert anyone. We can teach people that by believing in science doesn't mean abandoing religion. Why shouldn't we teach World Religions or Atheism? Wouldn't we raise awareness and respect for people of all beliefs and non-beliefs?the idea that people don't believe in it because they have no understanding of it and dont want to betray their religion is a little scary and not a great advert for religion.
There is a history behind this. There have been ongoing issues between evolution and creationism for a very long time. Just because people feel strongly about their religion doesn't mean they're always educated on every aspect of what that religion teaches. Scientists have also come along way in not disputing religous components of such things as evolution, big bang theory, etc.0
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