Evolution
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Just a word about Physicists and religion... Many of the greatest physicists were also profoundly religious, seeing the wonderful order and beauty of the universe as evidence of a power greater than can be comprehended by mans' limited scope. Einstein, for example, may not have believed in a personal God, but he also had this to say:
“I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 43.
and also:
“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”
Albert Einstein, upon being asked if he believed in God by Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogue, New York, April 24, 1921, published in the New York Times, April 25, 1929
Unusually, I am with MacPatti on this (please don't faint in surprise
!) - I don't believe that science and religion are necessarily exclusive. The allegories used in the Bible to explain Creation, like all allegories, are not to be read literally. As many have said, evolution is continuous and visible, and as such, the evidence cannot be denied, yet we know so little, and understand even less in real terms about the beginnings of life, and are simultaneously witness daily to the multitudinous variations of design that surround us in the natural world. To believe that evolution exists is not necessarily to deny the existence of a Creative Intelligence (God in Judaeo-Christian heritage), nor vice versa.
Science deals in facts, as they are currently understood, but produces theories, which implies an uncertainty - something more or less proved, but open to review and reinterpretation as further knowledge is gained. In a side note, something which just struck me - the Greek root of this word is Theos - meaning God. A theory could therefore literally be explained as a looking at or exploration of the workings of God. The word 'theoria' is also still used in theological research and debate - another thing science and religion have in common.
As Einstein also said: "Question everything"! He would not be surprised, and I suspect would be delighted, that the first steps to disproving his apparently unassailable e=mc2 have recently been taken. Science is never unassailable, and many 'mysteries' have been demystified in the course of time, as our understanding evolves - there is always more to learn, and to quote another of my favourite thinkers:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act 1,Sc. V0 -
im really surprised this is even a debate??
Meaning?0 -
Unusually, I am with MacPatti on this (please don't faint in surprise !)
:laugh:0 -
im really surprised this is even a debate??
Meaning?
I would guess that for the poster saying it, and any of us who've looked into the matter and learned about evolution, there's no argument. It's a fact. It'd be like arguing against gravity or the shape of the Earth. I understand if some people prefer to follow ancient texts, they have that right. But they can still be wrong about things.
And the religious argument AGAINST evolution is just childish and ridiculous (note Patti I'm not saying you or your church makes such arguments. I get that Catholics accept the truth of evolution).
There are people out there who honestly believe that all the fossils we've discovered were placed there by "the devil". To me viewing the world in this way is primitive. Things don't work like that. There aren't little demons running around trying to screw up our scientific understanding of the universe. It's 2011. Grow up.0 -
And the religious argument AGAINST evolution is just childish and ridiculous (note Patti I'm not saying you or your church makes such arguments. I get that Catholics accept the truth of evolution).
I don't know that I'd use the words "childish" or "ridiculous". Maybe ignorant or uneducated (in the true sense of those words). I think some people don't know enough and feel like their abondoning their faith if they "believe in evolution". I'm married to a theologian and my vocation has me studying, discussin, thinking of these issues. For many others, they just want to remain loyal to their faith, and don't really understand it all.0 -
And the religious argument AGAINST evolution is just childish and ridiculous (note Patti I'm not saying you or your church makes such arguments. I get that Catholics accept the truth of evolution).
I don't know that I'd use the words "childish" or "ridiculous". Maybe ignorant or uneducated (in the true sense of those words). I think some people don't know enough and feel like their abondoning their faith if they "believe in evolution". I'm married to a theologian and my vocation has me studying, discussin, thinking of these issues. For many others, they just want to remain loyal to their faith, and don't really understand it all.
I hate to say it, but I think a lot of people are more comfortable being told what to think, whether that's by a teacher, a religious leader, a government, the media, or many other mouthpieces, and prefer not to think critically about what they're hearing, or to ask questions that might highlight fallacies or inaccuracies in what they're being told. Indubitably, it's a more comfortable way to live... Thankfully, this doesn't apply to anyone on this thread! It's great to have somewhere to discuss these contentious issues. :happy:0 -
im really surprised this is even a debate??
Meaning?
meaning, i assumed it had stopped being debated around the same time as the world being flat V sphere debate was settled.0 -
meaning, i assumed it had stopped being debated around the same time as the world being flat V sphere debate was settled.
I think we've actually got beyond debating it in this thread, and are more discussing issues related to it.0 -
by page 2? I dont think responding to the OP whilst only on page 2 means im derailing the thread particularly0
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by page 2? I dont think responding to the OP whilst only on page 2 means im derailing the thread particularly
No.....I didn't mean it like that. I was trying to get you to join the ongoing discussion. Sorry it came across as accusing you of derailing...not my intention.0 -
by page 2? I dont think responding to the OP whilst only on page 2 means im derailing the thread particularly
I think that's kind of the proves your point though.
My page 2 there was so little debate on "does evolution exist" because there's nothing to debate. It does, its proven scientifically. The only room for debate on this issue is on HOW the world started. and even that was oddly agreed upon by many, if no one knows for sure... no one wants to give a definitive answer it seems0 -
meaning, i assumed it had stopped being debated around the same time as the world being flat V sphere debate was settled.
I think we've actually got beyond debating it in this thread, and are more discussing issues related to it.
Agreed - we all seem to concur that evolution exists - now we're on to context and the grey areas - so much more fun :flowerforyou:0 -
The real tragedy is the number of schools not teaching it. Why? Fear of religion.
Even though most schools have no legal obstacle in teaching it, they know what a headache they can be in for. They know parents will protest. So teachers end up shoving evolution to the end of the year and then run out of time to teach it.
It's such a shame because it's truly a beautiful way of understanding life.0 -
The real tragedy is the number of schools not teaching it. Why? Fear of religion.
Even though most schools have no legal obstacle in teaching it, they know what a headache they can be in for. They know parents will protest. So teachers end up shoving evolution to the end of the year and then run out of time to teach it.
It's such a shame because it's truly a beautiful way of understanding life.
If teachers were able to teach evolution with the religious component, we wouldn't have such an issue. The problem is that God has been forced out of many schools. The problem isn't "fear of religion". The problem is those opposed to religion.0 -
I believe in evolution because I injured my damn tailbone, and if we didn't evolve from something that used to have a flipping tail, then I wouldn't have to deal with this pain!!!!
I feel your pain (literally)! I broke my tailbone into 3 pieces when I was kid. Hurt like HELL! Apparently they can't fix that, either.
What were we talking about again?0 -
If teachers were able to teach evolution with the religious component, we wouldn't have such an issue. The problem is that God has been forced out of many schools. The problem isn't "fear of religion". The problem is those opposed to religion.
Schools are secular. You can't teach religion in them. If so, which do you think they should teach? (rhetorical question, just trying to point out WHY we have separation of church and state.)
Also a science class, where evolution would be taught, can't say anything about God. Science is about evidence and that which can be measured, studied and tested.0 -
I'm not suggesting secular schools teach religion, but I don't see why they cannot at least teach that "believing in evolution" does not mean abandoning one's faith.Schools are secular. You can't teach religion in them.Also a science class, where evolution would be taught, can't say anything about God. Science is about evidence and that which can be measured, studied and tested.
The existence of God is a whole other topic! To me, not believing in the Bible is the same as not believing in history books with historical data (but we'll save that for another debate).
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god has no place in school or state. religion is a personal choice to believe in something and nothing more. i'm also surprised it's a debate because i've never in my life met someone who didn't believe in evolution, and so it would never occur to me to ask.
the idea that people don't believe in it because they have no understanding of it and dont want to betray their religion is a little scary and not a great advert for religion.0 -
I'm not suggesting secular schools teach religion, but I don't see why they cannot at least teach that "believing in evolution" does not mean abandoning one's faith.
The existence of God is a whole other topic! To me, not believing in the Bible is the same as not believing in history books with historical data (but we'll save that for another debate).
Oooh Patti you're getting so good with the quote function I can barely keep up!
Thanks. I thought you meant state schools. Glad to see we don't disagree there. I will say it's gotta be tough for teachers. It's not like it used to be, we see that evolution is pretty widely believed these days. But not everywhere. While teachers may not have to worry about legal challenges like they used to they do have to worry about angry parents.
Intelligent design's attempt to shoehorn itself into the debate was (eventually) laughed out of the schools in Dover, a very interesting case for anyone not familiar with it.0 -
god has no place in school or state. religion is a personal choice to believe in something and nothing more. i'm also surprised it's a debate because i've never in my life met someone who didn't believe in evolution, and so it would never occur to me to ask
Maybe to you God has no place in school or state, but that saddens many of us. We can speak about God without trying to convert anyone. We can teach people that by believing in science doesn't mean abandoing religion. Why shouldn't we teach World Religions or Atheism? Wouldn't we raise awareness and respect for people of all beliefs and non-beliefs?the idea that people don't believe in it because they have no understanding of it and dont want to betray their religion is a little scary and not a great advert for religion.
There is a history behind this. There have been ongoing issues between evolution and creationism for a very long time. Just because people feel strongly about their religion doesn't mean they're always educated on every aspect of what that religion teaches. Scientists have also come along way in not disputing religous components of such things as evolution, big bang theory, etc.0
