Trayvon and the media
Replies
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This is why the average untrained person does not need to be walking around with a gun. Someone punches you - you can't just blow their head off. Thats crazy. How is that any different from kids that get beat up or bullied at school and then go in a blow half the class away? Are they justified?This is like OJ all over again, the american public, compeletly fueled my media hysteria is jumping to conclusions based on skin color. No one knows what happened for sure. Witnesses say that Trayvon had Zimm on the ground and was beating the piss out of him. I think a clearer picture will emerge since it is probable that the FBI is doing a deconstruction of the audio that was recorded of the scuffle. MY thougts on it are this.
If indeed, Zimmerman approached Martin, asked him what he was doing, or even if he used a racial slur, he is guilty of nothing more than bad character and judgement. These are not punishable offenses under the law. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon initially, then he is responsible for murder because starting a fight, and escalating to deadly force in my book is murder.
If on the other hand all Ziimmerman did was ask the kid what he was doing, Trayvon had no right to punch him, kick him, or slam his head into the ground. In that case, I think you should be allowed to blow his head off.
Everything else is media fluff. Who cares if the kid had skittle and ice tea. And it's hilarious that when I heard the description about how some white guy killed a black kid on the radio, when I get home, I see the shooter to be a half white/ half Peruvian dude who looks like a mexican. The sensationalism of this is killing me. And now we have mobs of people on both sides defending both the shooter and the shootee based not on the facts, but on the emotional drama the media has forced on us.
Law enforcement is trained to handle this situation without killing the suspect. I have a lot of respect for the police and what they do. All of the men in my family are cops (my sister-in-law too). And this is the reason they are trained so intensely. When I see something suspicious I call the police. I let them handle it.0 -
This is why the average untrained person does not need to be walking around with a gun. Someone punches you - you can't just blow their head off. Thats crazy. How is that any different from kids that get beat up or bullied at school and then go in a blow half the class away? Are they justified?This is like OJ all over again, the american public, compeletly fueled my media hysteria is jumping to conclusions based on skin color. No one knows what happened for sure. Witnesses say that Trayvon had Zimm on the ground and was beating the piss out of him. I think a clearer picture will emerge since it is probable that the FBI is doing a deconstruction of the audio that was recorded of the scuffle. MY thougts on it are this.
If indeed, Zimmerman approached Martin, asked him what he was doing, or even if he used a racial slur, he is guilty of nothing more than bad character and judgement. These are not punishable offenses under the law. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon initially, then he is responsible for murder because starting a fight, and escalating to deadly force in my book is murder.
If on the other hand all Ziimmerman did was ask the kid what he was doing, Trayvon had no right to punch him, kick him, or slam his head into the ground. In that case, I think you should be allowed to blow his head off.
Everything else is media fluff. Who cares if the kid had skittle and ice tea. And it's hilarious that when I heard the description about how some white guy killed a black kid on the radio, when I get home, I see the shooter to be a half white/ half Peruvian dude who looks like a mexican. The sensationalism of this is killing me. And now we have mobs of people on both sides defending both the shooter and the shootee based not on the facts, but on the emotional drama the media has forced on us.
Law enforcement is trained to handle this situation without killing the suspect. I have a lot of respect for the police and what they do. All of the men in my family are cops (my sister-in-law too). And this is the reason they are trained so intensely. When I see something suspicious I call the police. I let them handle it.
You are assuming George has no training...0 -
Im speaking in general. Untrained people should not be confronting citizens.
This is why the average untrained person does not need to be walking around with a gun. Someone punches you - you can't just blow their head off. Thats crazy. How is that any different from kids that get beat up or bullied at school and then go in a blow half the class away? Are they justified?This is like OJ all over again, the american public, compeletly fueled my media hysteria is jumping to conclusions based on skin color. No one knows what happened for sure. Witnesses say that Trayvon had Zimm on the ground and was beating the piss out of him. I think a clearer picture will emerge since it is probable that the FBI is doing a deconstruction of the audio that was recorded of the scuffle. MY thougts on it are this.
If indeed, Zimmerman approached Martin, asked him what he was doing, or even if he used a racial slur, he is guilty of nothing more than bad character and judgement. These are not punishable offenses under the law. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon initially, then he is responsible for murder because starting a fight, and escalating to deadly force in my book is murder.
If on the other hand all Ziimmerman did was ask the kid what he was doing, Trayvon had no right to punch him, kick him, or slam his head into the ground. In that case, I think you should be allowed to blow his head off.
Everything else is media fluff. Who cares if the kid had skittle and ice tea. And it's hilarious that when I heard the description about how some white guy killed a black kid on the radio, when I get home, I see the shooter to be a half white/ half Peruvian dude who looks like a mexican. The sensationalism of this is killing me. And now we have mobs of people on both sides defending both the shooter and the shootee based not on the facts, but on the emotional drama the media has forced on us.
Law enforcement is trained to handle this situation without killing the suspect. I have a lot of respect for the police and what they do. All of the men in my family are cops (my sister-in-law too). And this is the reason they are trained so intensely. When I see something suspicious I call the police. I let them handle it.
You are assuming George has no training...
And specifically with Zimmerman I don't believe he was a law enforcement officer - unless I missed that somewhere. When I say untrained I don't mean gun training. I mean trained in law enforcement.Trained in how to handle confrontation and life threatening situations. I know plenty of people in the military that are trained to kill. They shouldnt be running around with guns looking for suspects either.0 -
Im speaking in general. Untrained people should not be confronting citizens.
And specifically with Zimmerman I don't believe he was a law enforcement officer - unless I missed that somewhere. When I say untrained I don't mean gun training. I mean trained in law enforcement.Trained in how to handle confrontation and life threatening situations. I know plenty of people in the military that are trained to kill. They shouldnt be running around with guns looking for suspects either.
So neighborhood watch groups, people that volunteer their time to keep their homes and families safe, should not be allowed?0 -
This is like OJ all over again, the american public, compeletly fueled my media hysteria is jumping to conclusions based on skin color.
I'll have you know I'm jumping to conclusions purely due to a lack of hard evidence and general crankiness! Not race!
Since when did race come into this argument? :huh:0 -
Its called neighborhood watch. Not neighborhood chase down and shoot. I am a member of my neighborhood watch. We are sponsored by the local police. They always tell you not to confront. Not to chase. Call them immediately and report what you saw. That is what neighborhood watch does. Extra eyes and ears for the police. Not extra trigger fingers.Im speaking in general. Untrained people should not be confronting citizens.
And specifically with Zimmerman I don't believe he was a law enforcement officer - unless I missed that somewhere. When I say untrained I don't mean gun training. I mean trained in law enforcement.Trained in how to handle confrontation and life threatening situations. I know plenty of people in the military that are trained to kill. They shouldnt be running around with guns looking for suspects either.
So neighborhood watch groups, people that volunteer their time to keep their homes and families safe, should not be allowed?
ETA: In fact if you are not a member of a neigborhood watch I suggest finding out more about it. Its not like you see on TV. Im not running around with flashlights chasing down drug dealers. We mostly report people in the park after hours and suspicious cars that havent moved for a few days. Or even suspicious teenagers lurking around.0 -
Here is a page with collected information updated by the city of Sanford:
http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html
and a FAQ from the city manager:
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf0 -
All u say is so true, but to add to wht u have said, I think this is bigger than a black or white issue. The laws of this country suck without question. There is racial bias all over, its just more talked about when its blacks and whites. US as people need to come together and change these laws. This is the most selfish country on the map, bar none. The US will step on anyone's toes for its own self gain,Black, White, Hispanic, Arab....etc for the big pay off,for Themselves!!!!! Yes this is election year and this case will be used for political gain and tht is wrong. There is a mother who doesn't have a son to love and hug anymore, tht is the biggest picture of all. Wht are we teaching kids, trust the law? Don't trust the law? Make your own laws? Trust white ppl? Don't trust them? All black ppl are gangsters and violent? The police are on your side? 19yrs ago the Rodney King issue was at hand, and to this day nuthn positive has come from tht whole experience, and I don't believe nuthn good will come of this. Who said this is the greatest country? Not me, but the politicians who run this hell hole we call the great USA. The only color tht is valued in this country is GREEN!!!0
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Im speaking in general. Untrained people should not be confronting citizens.
This is why the average untrained person does not need to be walking around with a gun. Someone punches you - you can't just blow their head off. Thats crazy. How is that any different from kids that get beat up or bullied at school and then go in a blow half the class away? Are they justified?This is like OJ all over again, the american public, compeletly fueled my media hysteria is jumping to conclusions based on skin color. No one knows what happened for sure. Witnesses say that Trayvon had Zimm on the ground and was beating the piss out of him. I think a clearer picture will emerge since it is probable that the FBI is doing a deconstruction of the audio that was recorded of the scuffle. MY thougts on it are this.
If indeed, Zimmerman approached Martin, asked him what he was doing, or even if he used a racial slur, he is guilty of nothing more than bad character and judgement. These are not punishable offenses under the law. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon initially, then he is responsible for murder because starting a fight, and escalating to deadly force in my book is murder.
If on the other hand all Ziimmerman did was ask the kid what he was doing, Trayvon had no right to punch him, kick him, or slam his head into the ground. In that case, I think you should be allowed to blow his head off.
Everything else is media fluff. Who cares if the kid had skittle and ice tea. And it's hilarious that when I heard the description about how some white guy killed a black kid on the radio, when I get home, I see the shooter to be a half white/ half Peruvian dude who looks like a mexican. The sensationalism of this is killing me. And now we have mobs of people on both sides defending both the shooter and the shootee based not on the facts, but on the emotional drama the media has forced on us.
Law enforcement is trained to handle this situation without killing the suspect. I have a lot of respect for the police and what they do. All of the men in my family are cops (my sister-in-law too). And this is the reason they are trained so intensely. When I see something suspicious I call the police. I let them handle it.
You are assuming George has no training...
And specifically with Zimmerman I don't believe he was a law enforcement officer - unless I missed that somewhere. When I say untrained I don't mean gun training. I mean trained in law enforcement.Trained in how to handle confrontation and life threatening situations. I know plenty of people in the military that are trained to kill. They shouldnt be running around with guns looking for suspects either.
Yes, I believe if some one punches me I have the right to defend myself in any way possible. I am no a kid, I won't be meeting anyone at the monkey bars for a brawl anytime soon. I'm 33 years old and on blood clotting medicine which thins my blood. Any strike to me is potentially life threatening. Therefore, in my mind, any assualt is attempted murder against me. There fore, I will stab with my keys, gouge out eyes, shoot, and bludgeon anyone who assaults me. Good news is, I am a laid back guy and hardly anyone ever wants to fight me, and if I do, I find ways out of the situation.
But like I said, both these individuals had choices. Zimmerman made the wrong choice chasing Trayvon down. But it wasn't illegal, it was rude. (assuming he wasn't the one who threw the first punch). If Trayvon got pissed, punched hard enough to knock him down, and was beating his head into the pavement, Zimmerman had the right to shoot him.
Like I said, we don't know for sure who started it...yet, but the whole thing was on audio, and I think we will know soon enough. If Zimmerman stuck first, was losing a fist fight, then shot. He's a murderer. If not, he's just an *kitten*.
And as far as making this about race, I am aware no one in this forum was doing so. But if you go to your local news affiliates FB pages and see the common persons replies, you realize that there are an awful alot of dumb black, white, and mexican people out there who are not making judgements based on facts, but on how people look, dress, and the color of their skin.0 -
I think we are on the same page for about 99%. But my problem is this wasn't one grown man going after another. I dont care what previous posters say - he was still a kid. When someone commits a crime it needs to be assessed whether or not they were thinking and acting as an adult. I get that. It is rare that children are tried as adults for a reason. Its rare that children have the decision making skills and maturity to fully comprehend what they are doing. I stole my moms car when I was 16. I just wanted to go for a ride and look cool in front of my friends. What if I had killed someone in an accident? But who knows if this kid was capable of making that adult decision when he should not have had to. My neice is 17. If a man were following her with a gun I know for a fact she does not have the decision making skills to do anything but run for her life. If that.
Im speaking in general. Untrained people should not be confronting citizens.
This is why the average untrained person does not need to be walking around with a gun. Someone punches you - you can't just blow their head off. Thats crazy. How is that any different from kids that get beat up or bullied at school and then go in a blow half the class away? Are they justified?This is like OJ all over again, the american public, compeletly fueled my media hysteria is jumping to conclusions based on skin color. No one knows what happened for sure. Witnesses say that Trayvon had Zimm on the ground and was beating the piss out of him. I think a clearer picture will emerge since it is probable that the FBI is doing a deconstruction of the audio that was recorded of the scuffle. MY thougts on it are this.
If indeed, Zimmerman approached Martin, asked him what he was doing, or even if he used a racial slur, he is guilty of nothing more than bad character and judgement. These are not punishable offenses under the law. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon initially, then he is responsible for murder because starting a fight, and escalating to deadly force in my book is murder.
If on the other hand all Ziimmerman did was ask the kid what he was doing, Trayvon had no right to punch him, kick him, or slam his head into the ground. In that case, I think you should be allowed to blow his head off.
Everything else is media fluff. Who cares if the kid had skittle and ice tea. And it's hilarious that when I heard the description about how some white guy killed a black kid on the radio, when I get home, I see the shooter to be a half white/ half Peruvian dude who looks like a mexican. The sensationalism of this is killing me. And now we have mobs of people on both sides defending both the shooter and the shootee based not on the facts, but on the emotional drama the media has forced on us.
Law enforcement is trained to handle this situation without killing the suspect. I have a lot of respect for the police and what they do. All of the men in my family are cops (my sister-in-law too). And this is the reason they are trained so intensely. When I see something suspicious I call the police. I let them handle it.
You are assuming George has no training...
And specifically with Zimmerman I don't believe he was a law enforcement officer - unless I missed that somewhere. When I say untrained I don't mean gun training. I mean trained in law enforcement.Trained in how to handle confrontation and life threatening situations. I know plenty of people in the military that are trained to kill. They shouldnt be running around with guns looking for suspects either.
Yes, I believe if some one punches me I have the right to defend myself in any way possible. I am no a kid, I won't be meeting anyone at the monkey bars for a brawl anytime soon. I'm 33 years old and on blood clotting medicine which thins my blood. Any strike to me is potentially life threatening. Therefore, in my mind, any assualt is attempted murder against me. There fore, I will stab with my keys, gouge out eyes, shoot, and bludgeon anyone who assaults me. Good news is, I am a laid back guy and hardly anyone ever wants to fight me, and if I do, I find ways out of the situation.
But like I said, both these individuals had choices. Zimmerman made the wrong choice chasing Trayvon down. But it wasn't illegal, it was rude. (assuming he wasn't the one who threw the first punch). If Trayvon got pissed, punched hard enough to knock him down, and was beating his head into the pavement, Zimmerman had the right to shoot him.
Like I said, we don't know for sure who started it...yet, but the whole thing was on audio, and I think we will know soon enough. If Zimmerman stuck first, was losing a fist fight, then shot. He's a murderer. If not, he's just an *kitten*.
And as far as making this about race, I am aware no one in this forum was doing so. But if you go to your local news affiliates FB pages and see the common persons replies, you realize that there are an awful alot of dumb black, white, and mexican people out there who are not making judgements based on facts, but on how people look, dress, and the color of their skin.
But you are right. There is audio and we will know soon enough.0 -
SIDE NOTE: Just in case anyone was concerned there is no bad blood between Delta and I.
He private messaged me, apologized for the whole thing and said I was of course right. About everything.
*runs*0 -
I think we are on the same page for about 99%. But my problem is this wasn't one grown man going after another. I dont care what previous posters say - he was still a kid. When someone commits a crime it needs to be assessed whether or not they were thinking and acting as an adult. I get that. It is rare that children are tried as adults for a reason. Its rare that children have the decision making skills and maturity to fully comprehend what they are doing. I stole my moms car when I was 16. I just wanted to go for a ride and look cool in front of my friends. What if I had killed someone in an accident? But who knows if this kid was capable of making that adult decision when he should not have had to. My neice is 17. If a man were following her with a gun I know for a fact she does not have the decision making skills to do anything but run for her life. If that.
Im speaking in general. Untrained people should not be confronting citizens.
This is why the average untrained person does not need to be walking around with a gun. Someone punches you - you can't just blow their head off. Thats crazy. How is that any different from kids that get beat up or bullied at school and then go in a blow half the class away? Are they justified?This is like OJ all over again, the american public, compeletly fueled my media hysteria is jumping to conclusions based on skin color. No one knows what happened for sure. Witnesses say that Trayvon had Zimm on the ground and was beating the piss out of him. I think a clearer picture will emerge since it is probable that the FBI is doing a deconstruction of the audio that was recorded of the scuffle. MY thougts on it are this.
If indeed, Zimmerman approached Martin, asked him what he was doing, or even if he used a racial slur, he is guilty of nothing more than bad character and judgement. These are not punishable offenses under the law. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon initially, then he is responsible for murder because starting a fight, and escalating to deadly force in my book is murder.
If on the other hand all Ziimmerman did was ask the kid what he was doing, Trayvon had no right to punch him, kick him, or slam his head into the ground. In that case, I think you should be allowed to blow his head off.
Everything else is media fluff. Who cares if the kid had skittle and ice tea. And it's hilarious that when I heard the description about how some white guy killed a black kid on the radio, when I get home, I see the shooter to be a half white/ half Peruvian dude who looks like a mexican. The sensationalism of this is killing me. And now we have mobs of people on both sides defending both the shooter and the shootee based not on the facts, but on the emotional drama the media has forced on us.
Law enforcement is trained to handle this situation without killing the suspect. I have a lot of respect for the police and what they do. All of the men in my family are cops (my sister-in-law too). And this is the reason they are trained so intensely. When I see something suspicious I call the police. I let them handle it.
You are assuming George has no training...
And specifically with Zimmerman I don't believe he was a law enforcement officer - unless I missed that somewhere. When I say untrained I don't mean gun training. I mean trained in law enforcement.Trained in how to handle confrontation and life threatening situations. I know plenty of people in the military that are trained to kill. They shouldnt be running around with guns looking for suspects either.
Yes, I believe if some one punches me I have the right to defend myself in any way possible. I am no a kid, I won't be meeting anyone at the monkey bars for a brawl anytime soon. I'm 33 years old and on blood clotting medicine which thins my blood. Any strike to me is potentially life threatening. Therefore, in my mind, any assualt is attempted murder against me. There fore, I will stab with my keys, gouge out eyes, shoot, and bludgeon anyone who assaults me. Good news is, I am a laid back guy and hardly anyone ever wants to fight me, and if I do, I find ways out of the situation.
But like I said, both these individuals had choices. Zimmerman made the wrong choice chasing Trayvon down. But it wasn't illegal, it was rude. (assuming he wasn't the one who threw the first punch). If Trayvon got pissed, punched hard enough to knock him down, and was beating his head into the pavement, Zimmerman had the right to shoot him.
Like I said, we don't know for sure who started it...yet, but the whole thing was on audio, and I think we will know soon enough. If Zimmerman stuck first, was losing a fist fight, then shot. He's a murderer. If not, he's just an *kitten*.
And as far as making this about race, I am aware no one in this forum was doing so. But if you go to your local news affiliates FB pages and see the common persons replies, you realize that there are an awful alot of dumb black, white, and mexican people out there who are not making judgements based on facts, but on how people look, dress, and the color of their skin.
But you are right. There is audio and we will know soon enough.
I agree with all that. But playing devils advocate, he Martin is 6'4" and a football player. Zimmerman might not have known he was confronting a kid. His status as a minor only changes how I think he should be treated in a court of law since I agree with you that children aren't fully capable of adult decision making yet. But I am just trying to focus on that even, that night. I don't care what clothes he was wearing, whether he had skittles or not, if he had recently been suspended. ALl of that is media fluff designed to add drama. If getting suspended from school and looking like a punk is the justification we are using to shoot people, I would have been shot in my teens. This whole thing just got so heated, I just don't see a lot of people setting aside the whole emotional aspect of it and trying to reason through it with logic.0 -
SIDE NOTE: Just in case anyone was concerned there is no bad blood between Delta and I.
He private messaged me, apologized for the whole thing and said I was of course right. About everything.
*runs*
d'aawwwww..how sweet! :laugh:0 -
Whew! An exciting day you all had!
I was working, :grumble: so I missed the chance to weigh in.
1 question I haven't seen raised.......Even if Trayvon was beating the **** out of him, and Zimmerman felt like he had to defend himself, why didn't he shoot him in the knee? Why didn't he fire a warning shot before the attack even started? He really thought lethal force was necessary?
I tend to agree with Brett on this one.0 -
Whew! An exciting day you all had!
I was working, :grumble: so I missed the chance to weigh in.
1 question I haven't seen raised.......Even if Trayvon was beating the **** out of him, and Zimmerman felt like he had to defend himself, why didn't he shoot him in the knee? Why didn't he fire a warning shot before the attack even started? He really thought lethal force was necessary?
I tend to agree with Brett on this one.
That's where it gets complicated. Was Tayvon on top of him when the shot went off? Was it point blank or 15 feet away? He shot once, not multiple times from what I know, so maybe it was a panicked shot. Or maybe Tayvon had already gotten off of him and had broken off the attack and the dude shot him in a rage. There are so many ways this could have gone down and the picture is so incomplete, it's hard for me to take a stance on it.0 -
Anyone know where Trayvon's gunshot wound was? I don't.0
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So now that more information is out about what happened between GZ and Trayvon i.e. the teenage witness who saw GZ lying on the ground moaning and the cops seeing that he had been punched in the face and contusions when he had his head slammed on the ground, plus the recent releasing of information on Trayvons facebook and recent school problems bringing to light that he might not have been as innocent as the pictures they spread all over the news of him made him appear. Does anyone here think that GZ was judged prematurely by the public without all the facts? Has anyone's mind changed a bit? I think this is going to be a very interesting and tough case to try...........if they get that far. Thoughts?
It depends. If anyone has judged anything based on what has been published in the media so far, then I would question their judgement in general.
We don't know all the facts and, as is typical in these cases, the interested parties are trying to "control the narrative" by leaking bits and pieces of information that they think are most advantageous to them.
We can use this incident to have macro discussions about assumptions people make about race, inherent problems in "stand your ground laws" and things like that. But, IMO at least, engaging in substantive discussions about the particulars in this case is pointless. No one has all the facts.
What I will say is that the information that is being leaked now about Johnson follows the classic pattern of trying to paint young African-American males as thugs and thus deserving of whatever fate or punishment they receive. So, again, until I get the larger perspective I am suspicious of any attempts to paint either participant in "good/bad" terms.0 -
It's an election year. Jackson and Sharpton are fueling a race war that they think will benefit Obama. Of course a middle eastern woman was brutally murdered in California, with a message saying "go back yo your country" and no one gets all fired up of that blatant hate crime.
The media is out of control. I've seen the current photo's o fthe two involved. Trayvon was a large young man, dressed like a gangster and had a reputation for being up to no good... Not the little sweet, innocent boy like the 5-year old photos of him the media has been posting. Now witnesses are coming forward saying that Trayvon was beating on Zimmerman right before the gunshot. If balistics and eveidence support that I will agree that this was a self-defense shot. Sad? yes for ALL parties.
Now the New Black Panthers have put a $1million bounty on Zimmermans head and the man has gone into hiding for fear of his life. Really? Who do this groups think they are to take matters into their own hands? We have a justice system for a reason.
My opinion( and I'm sure I'll be slaughtered for this one): Zimmerman, though doing a good thing by being a neighborhood watchmen, should have taken it so far. But if you wanna live like a thug, you will die like one.
You mean this photo?
Because this photo--which I believe is the one that was shown on Fox "News"-- is a fake.
Oh, and the "New Black Panthers" "bounty" was $10,000, but, yeah $1 million sounds much more threatening. (Ignoring the point completely that the NBP is a fringe group that is not taken seriously by anyone except Fox "News". Nonetheless, if it makes you happy, I will gladly state that they, even though they are meaningless idiots, their actions should be condemned in no uncertain terms).
The "witness" reports are selective leaks from police reports - the same police whose botched investigation lead to this whole mess in the first place. Think they don't have a vested interest in trashing Martin's reputation?
I don't see how you can claim the media is "out of control" when you are parroting the false and misleading information spread on right-wing propaganda sites. How are you any better?0 -
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager
According to the Orlando Sentinel, Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him. If this is true, then self-defense would be justified.
Depends on what happened before that. There is also the legal concept that if Zimmerman left the vehicle and initiated a confrontation, he can't really claim "self defense"--at least not as a legal exoneration.
Just playing devil's advocate. Again, I refuse to make any assumptions about this case until the investigations are complete.0 -
It's an election year. Jackson and Sharpton are fueling a race war that they think will benefit Obama. Of course a middle eastern woman was brutally murdered in California, with a message saying "go back yo your country" and no one gets all fired up of that blatant hate crime.
The media is out of control. I've seen the current photo's o fthe two involved. Trayvon was a large young man, dressed like a gangster and had a reputation for being up to no good... Not the little sweet, innocent boy like the 5-year old photos of him the media has been posting. Now witnesses are coming forward saying that Trayvon was beating on Zimmerman right before the gunshot. If balistics and eveidence support that I will agree that this was a self-defense shot. Sad? yes for ALL parties.
Now the New Black Panthers have put a $1million bounty on Zimmermans head and the man has gone into hiding for fear of his life. Really? Who do this groups think they are to take matters into their own hands? We have a justice system for a reason.
My opinion( and I'm sure I'll be slaughtered for this one): Zimmerman, though doing a good thing by being a neighborhood watchmen, should have taken it so far. But if you wanna live like a thug, you will die like one.
You mean this photo?
Because this photo--which I believe is the one that was shown on Fox "News"-- is a fake.
Oh, and the "New Black Panthers" "bounty" was $10,000, but, yeah $1 million sounds much more threatening. (Ignoring the point completely that the NBP is a fringe group that is not taken seriously by anyone except Fox "News". Nonetheless, if it makes you happy, I will gladly state that they, even though they are meaningless idiots, their actions should be condemned in no uncertain terms).
The "witness" reports are selective leaks from police reports - the same police whose botched investigation lead to this whole mess in the first place. Think they don't have a vested interest in trashing Martin's reputation?
I don't see how you can claim the media is "out of control" when you are parroting the false and misleading information spread on right-wing propaganda sites. How are you any better?
Actually they're on video stating that by next week they're looking forward to having $1 million and they're already getting donations from athletes and entertainers.0 -
Actually they're on video stating that by next week they're looking forward to having $1 million and they're already getting donations from athletes and entertainers.
The only "evidence" for the "$1 Million" from "atheletes and entertainers" is, of course, the video of the doofus from the NBPP.
Which brings me back to my previous point about people parroting propaganda and right-wing talking points.
From CNN, dated 3/26/12:The separatist New Black Panther Party, described as a hate group by a civil rights organization, is standing by its $10,000 bounty offer for the capture of the man who shot Trayvon Martin, despite vehement opposition from, among others, Martin's family.The group -- which is distinct from the better known Black Panther Party, founded in the late 1960s -- is described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group and a "virulently racist and anti-Semitic organization."
...
Martin family attorney Daryl Parks echoed comments by others associated with the family, including the Rev. Jesse Jackson, condemning the apparent bounty offer. "We don't condone those people whatsoever," Parks said.
Speaking earlier Monday to city officials in a packed Sanford Civic Center, Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, said his family wanted to work through the legal system and spur changes in Sanford's police department and Florida law.
"We're not asking for an eye for an eye," Tracy Martin said. "We're asking for justice, justice, justice."
So, again, why are you and others even bringing this up at all? Any moron can make a video and post it on youtube. These guys are not part of anything. They are a fringe group of self-promoters -- it's like me saying Fred Phelps represents all christians.
They know that because they look like scary negroes and wear black uniforms, they can get media attention that will rile up the simpletons and that will get them attention and even some support from other simpletons.
It's a smokescreen, a red herring, you name it. You should be smart enough to see through this crap.0 -
No idea where he was shot but "shooting someone in the knee" isn't as easy as it looks on TV. Throw in someone who doesn't use a gun every day, adreneline, possibly fear, etc and frankly, it's almost amazing he hit him with a single shot at all.Whew! An exciting day you all had!
I was working, :grumble: so I missed the chance to weigh in.
1 question I haven't seen raised.......Even if Trayvon was beating the **** out of him, and Zimmerman felt like he had to defend himself, why didn't he shoot him in the knee? Why didn't he fire a warning shot before the attack even started? He really thought lethal force was necessary?
I tend to agree with Brett on this one.
That's where it gets complicated. Was Tayvon on top of him when the shot went off? Was it point blank or 15 feet away? He shot once, not multiple times from what I know, so maybe it was a panicked shot. Or maybe Tayvon had already gotten off of him and had broken off the attack and the dude shot him in a rage. There are so many ways this could have gone down and the picture is so incomplete, it's hard for me to take a stance on it.0 -
The "witness" reports are selective leaks from police reports - the same police whose botched investigation lead to this whole mess in the first place. Think they don't have a vested interest in trashing Martin's reputation?
Again I think this is one of my biggest issues with the case. My cousin used to be a police officer before he joined the FBI and really the messed this case up beyond believe. If Zimmerman has injures they should have been documented on film and noted in the police report. He should have gone to the station for questioning at the very least. The polices in this situation are to bame for alot of the misdirection in this case.0 -
If I was walking down the street minding my own business, and some big dude comes up in a civilian car and no badge, and he's strapped, I'm thinking "Mugger", and I'm probably fighting or running. He probably would'a shot me too.0
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It's an election year. Jackson and Sharpton are fueling a race war that they think will benefit Obama. Of course a middle eastern woman was brutally murdered in California, with a message saying "go back yo your country" and no one gets all fired up of that blatant hate crime.
The media is out of control. I've seen the current photo's o fthe two involved. Trayvon was a large young man, dressed like a gangster and had a reputation for being up to no good... Not the little sweet, innocent boy like the 5-year old photos of him the media has been posting. Now witnesses are coming forward saying that Trayvon was beating on Zimmerman right before the gunshot. If balistics and eveidence support that I will agree that this was a self-defense shot. Sad? yes for ALL parties.
Now the New Black Panthers have put a $1million bounty on Zimmermans head and the man has gone into hiding for fear of his life. Really? Who do this groups think they are to take matters into their own hands? We have a justice system for a reason.
My opinion( and I'm sure I'll be slaughtered for this one): Zimmerman, though doing a good thing by being a neighborhood watchmen, should have taken it so far. But if you wanna live like a thug, you will die like one.
You mean this photo?
Because this photo--which I believe is the one that was shown on Fox "News"-- is a fake.
Oh, and the "New Black Panthers" "bounty" was $10,000, but, yeah $1 million sounds much more threatening. (Ignoring the point completely that the NBP is a fringe group that is not taken seriously by anyone except Fox "News". Nonetheless, if it makes you happy, I will gladly state that they, even though they are meaningless idiots, their actions should be condemned in no uncertain terms).
The "witness" reports are selective leaks from police reports - the same police whose botched investigation lead to this whole mess in the first place. Think they don't have a vested interest in trashing Martin's reputation?
I don't see how you can claim the media is "out of control" when you are parroting the false and misleading information spread on right-wing propaganda sites. How are you any better?
All my information came from a local news station. I don't have cable so I only get news from them on the web or my phone app. I did see AFTER I posted, that the photo was a different kid by the same name. Everything else I said I stand by. The media has pushed an opinion on people. Until we know the details, the results of the investigation, no one has the right to form a lynch mob or decide to take justice into their own hands.0 -
Exactly. All questions of race aside... which is difficult to do, I know... no private citizen should have delusions of Batman and try to be the neighborhood vigilante. Zimmerman saw what he thought was a "suspicious person" (and again, we won't get into his obvious stereotyping here) and called 911, and they said to stay away & leave him alone. That should have been the end of it. But Zimmerman followed the kid and confronted him, Zimmerman was an adult while Trayvon was a minor, Zimmerman was armed while Trayvon was not. In my book, that all makes Zimmerman the one who was seriously out of line here. My brother's a cop and he says the same thing. Alerting the cops to a potential problem is good. Trying to BE a cop when you're not trained or authorized to do so is a good way to get someone killed. Which is exactly what happened here.No, I haven't changed my opinion. I believe there is clear evidence that Zimmerman started to pursue Trayvon. When does self defense change over? When you attack me, I start kicking your *kitten*, and then you're worried for your life and shoot me, that still leaves you as the aggressor.
Yes. Here's where their police department has some 'splaining to do. Even the "Stand Your Ground" law only allows for self-defense. If Zimmerman had seen Trayvon actually committing a crime, that would be another story. But even so, no matter what your explanation, if one person is dead then the person who killed him needs to be brought in & questioned & investigated. Always.The MAJOR MAJOR PROBLEM REMAINS THAT ZIMMERMAN WAS NOT EVEN TAKEN IN FOR QUESTIONING. People can get off on self-defense - WITH INVESTIGATION. You can't just shoot someone dead and be allowed to walk home by the police. Think about it: if you killed an intruder in your home, you'd still almost definitely be taken in for questioning! I'm extremely concerned that ALL potential evidence is now totally compromised by GZ being allowed to drift, etc. etc.
Those are my problems with the whole thing.
This is my stance on this as well.0 -
Until we know the details, the results of the investigation, no one has the right to form a lynch mob or decide to take justice into their own hands.
Too bad George Zimmerman doesn't agree with you.0 -
I think if a man was following me around, I would probably either run or build up the courage to confront him as well. I think that's probably what happened, and Zimmerman was in fact "attacked" BUT which is self defense here? Zimmerman was TOLD NOT to pursue the boy on the 911 tape. So, in my opinion he was just stirring up trouble by not listening to the 911 dispatcher. So if Trayvon did attack him...I don't blame him because that's scary having someone following you around at night. Period. I'd be scared. Flight or Fight kicks in. Either way I feel Zimmerman was in the wrong.
Of course, I don't know all the facts, but as of right now until I hear something else...this is my opinion.0 -
Exactly.If I was walking down the street minding my own business, and some big dude comes up in a civilian car and no badge, and he's strapped, I'm thinking "Mugger", and I'm probably fighting or running. He probably would'a shot me too.0 -
Like I said, we don't know the details, but I have some sense that people are just picking sides based on who they like or relate too. Zimmerman is not a "big dude" compared to the 6'4" teenager. And yes he was told he didn't need to follow Martin. But he did, and it's not illegal. What is illegal is beating the **** out of someone. We don't know what was said. We don't know who threw the first punch. We do know that everyone has the right to walk down a public street, both Zimmerman and Martin.
We do know that everyone has the right to free speech and we don know that it is within a persons right to talk to anyone at anytime on public property. We also know that assault is illegal. I find it hard to believe that everyone here who is supporting Martin thinks that an adult has no right to walk up to another person in their neighborhood and ask a what they were up to without getting bodyslammed. Really? Even if Zimmerman has low character, even if he verbally harassed Martin....Martin had a phone as well. HE could have called the cops! Sad thing is, no matter what the circumstances are, I do not think Martin deserved to be shot. But no american deserves to get the tar kicked out of them either. I try to put myself in both of these guys shoes and I actually feel bad for both of them. NO ONE KNOWS what happend! There are so many X-factors do this that I could go on for several more paragraphs theorizing on what happened, puttin my self in either one of their shoes.
Everyone has the right to defend themselves. If Zimmeram attacked Martin, then Zimmerman is a murderer since Martin was fighting in self defense. If Martin lost his temper with this guy and was beating the tar out of him, then Zimmerman used self defense. End of story. It's a scary world out there folks, so the lesson is, if you don't want to see crap like this happen, we need to let our young people know this is the kind of stupidity, the loss of life, that can happen as a result of physical violence.0
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