Forcing Your Child to be Vegan/Vegetarian.
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We are not naturally at the top of the food chain.
Of course we are. The food chain isn't just who/what eats who/what. It's also about intelligence. Humans as a whole are smarter than other species.0 -
By the way, the fact that you are anti-abortion makes you a woman-murderer in my eyes. My god says so.
You lost me here.
As much as I understand people are trying to draw comparisons, I really think this one is a super-hot potato. I would suggest creating another thread to discuss this topic since I really think it can get down and dirty really fast.0 -
Fair enough. Although I think we already had that thread regarding spina bifida. :flowerforyou:By the way, the fact that you are anti-abortion makes you a woman-murderer in my eyes. My god says so.
You lost me here.
As much as I understand people are trying to draw comparisons, I really think this one is a super-hot potato. I would suggest creating another thread to discuss this topic since I really think it can get down and dirty really fast.0 -
The woman being murdered is the one who dies because she can't get access to a medically necessary abortion because someone somewhere decided for some baffling reason that a fetus is a person.
I'm not touching this one. Too nonsensical to even begin this dicussion.0 -
The woman being murdered is the one who dies because she can't get access to a medically necessary abortion because someone somewhere decided for some baffling reason that a fetus is a person.
I'm not touching this one. Too nonsensical to even begin this dicussion.
These are some strong opinions, and really tangential to the topic.0 -
The woman being murdered is the one who dies because she can't get access to a medically necessary abortion because someone somewhere decided for some baffling reason that a fetus is a person.
But if she chooses to go and get a backdoor abortion and dies, well, I'm sorry to say, but it was her choice.
I don't see us saying "yes, let's give lifestyle choice abortions to 34 week pregnant ladies because they might get a backdoor abortion!".
The baffling idea that a fetus is a person? Just like the baffling idea that a being with a beating heart, its own set of DNA and its own body is not deserving of any rights, but ya know ...0 -
We are not naturally at the top of the food chain.
Of course we are. The food chain isn't just who/what eats who/what. It's also about intelligence. Humans as a whole are smarter than other species.
Sources?0 -
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)
Your comments are brief but filled with problems.
Concerning Genesis 1:29, I don’t see a command here. God simply gave plants that would be good as human food. There is no prohibition of eating meat there.
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Okay, why do you suppose the author put that in? It must be there for a reason. It doesn't say, "Have the fruits of the trees after you've finished hacking up a cow and bbqing it."
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The Bible never says Jesus did not eat meat. He multiplied the loaves and FISH to feed the multitudes (implying he doesn’t have a problem with people eating fish).
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Ah, but two out of three versions of the Gospel do NOT say he fed the masses FISH, they say he fed the masses bread and relish. The most common relish of that time was made with ground olives, not fish. This is something you will not notice unless you read koine Greek.
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He celebrated the Passover Meal throughout his life and shortly before his death (the Passover Meal was centered around eating Lamb)
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Jesus was a Nazarene (member of a sect, not someone born in Nazareth) and as such, was vegetarian, He never ate lamb as part of his Passover Seder.
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and certainly never expressed an objection to this central celebration of the Hebrew religion. Not sure what you mean by the “Docetic” Christ (normal Docetism refers to the belief that Jesus was not really a man but only appeared to be so), but I believe that Jesus had a true, transformed material body after the resurrection.
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Christ appeared as docetic, and His disciples first believed He was a ghost.
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Concerning your third paragraph, since I don’t see Nicea or the orthodox theological developments that followed that council as being contrary to “what the early Church was really like,”
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I guess you never heard of Marcion, the Gnostics, or the Jewish Christians.
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I obviously will disagree with your admittedly “heretical” notions on that!0 -
1. Why's it funny? I know several people in that situation, plus, although I have never tried being vegetarian, I start feeling sick if I don't eat meat for about a week.
1. So if I'm one of those people who gets sick if they try to keep a vegetarian diet even if they are theoretically doing everything right, I still get to eat meat, yes?My child has been raised as I have, by the food pyramid, including meats.
In my opinion, animals were created to provide meat for human nourishment. Just as corn, beans, grains and various other things that grow were created to do the same. If my son chooses to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyles. That is perfectly fine by me. He can have what I make for dinner minus the meat or he can prepare his own food until he moves out.
I get some meat from the grocery but also from a local butcher when I can. My dad worked a second job there when I was a child. I've seen the local cows being brought in and watched them get slaughtered before being processed. Has never bothered me.
Animals were created to provide human nourishment? Just humans, then? No other animals. What about us? Were we 'created' to provide nourishment to animals such as lions and our other predetors?
Considering humans are at the top of the food chain, no. Animals such as lions eat other animals below them on the food chain.
Are carnivorous animals guilty of murder in your opinion then? Since they survive on preying on smaller animals?
We're the top of the food chain? Really? Come and tell me that when you fight a shark with your bare hands.
1. Carnivorous animals actually NEED meat to survive.
2. The difference between us and other animals are that we have the capability to recognise the difference between right and wrong. Oh, and they don't breed animals in their billions and torture them everyday, eventually kill them then send them off to supermarkets, packaged in foil to be sold to greedy humans.
2. The fact that I eat meat means that you think I am a murderer, a torturer, and greedy, right? So then don't you have a moral obligation to kill me so that I stop?
By the way, the fact that you are anti-abortion makes you a woman-murderer in my eyes. My god says so.
1. I always find it funny when people say that.
2. I don't think you're a murderer. You're not killing the animal. You're an accessory in its murder and torture. I think humans as a species are greedy, so yes, I think you're greedy. I think I'm greedy because I still eat diary, despite knowing it's just as bad as the meat industry.
LOL. Woman murderer? How does that make sense? What woman is getting murdered.
ETA; And, no, I don't have a moral obligation to kill anyone.
2. I've killed animals. I go fishing, and I spray my apartment with neurotoxins so that I don't have cockroaches, water bugs, or ants.
At best, it's criminally negligent homicide.
1. LOL.
2. Well, then, I think you have murdered.
LOL at this; At best, it's criminally negligent homicide.0 -
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)
Your comments are brief but filled with problems.
Concerning Genesis 1:29, I don’t see a command here. God simply gave plants that would be good as human food. There is no prohibition of eating meat there.
*****************
Okay, why do you suppose the author put that in? It must be there for a reason. It doesn't say, "Have the fruits of the trees after you've finished hacking up a cow and bbqing it."
*****************
The Bible never says Jesus did not eat meat. He multiplied the loaves and FISH to feed the multitudes (implying he doesn’t have a problem with people eating fish).
****************
Ah, but two out of three versions of the Gospel do NOT say he fed the masses FISH, they say he fed the masses bread and relish. The most common relish of that time was made with ground olives, not fish. This is something you will not notice unless you read koine Greek.
****************
He celebrated the Passover Meal throughout his life and shortly before his death (the Passover Meal was centered around eating Lamb)
***************
Jesus was a Nazarene (member of a sect, not someone born in Nazareth) and as such, was vegetarian, He never ate lamb as part of his Passover Seder.
***************
and certainly never expressed an objection to this central celebration of the Hebrew religion. Not sure what you mean by the “Docetic” Christ (normal Docetism refers to the belief that Jesus was not really a man but only appeared to be so), but I believe that Jesus had a true, transformed material body after the resurrection.
***********
Christ appeared as docetic, and His disciples first believed He was a ghost.
************
Concerning your third paragraph, since I don’t see Nicea or the orthodox theological developments that followed that council as being contrary to “what the early Church was really like,”
*************
I guess you never heard of Marcion, the Gnostics, or the Jewish Christians.
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I obviously will disagree with your admittedly “heretical” notions on that!
Nazarene in the 1st Century was used to reference the early Christians. The sect of Jewish Christians that you are referring to were from the 4th Century. I believe you were trying to say that Jesus was believed to be an Essene, who were vegetarian and communal and existed around the supposed lifetime of Jesus.0 -
Despite your belittling of my remarks on Genesis 1:29, I don’t see any command there of vegetarianism (contrary to your prior assertion). The rest of the Bible doesn’t match your dubious inference (including the rest of the book of Genesis).Okay, why do you suppose the author put that in? It must be there for a reason. It doesn't say, "Have the fruits of the trees after you've finished hacking up a cow and bbqing it."
I do read Koine Greek and looked at three of the four accounts of the miracle of the loaves and fishes and all use the Greek word “ichthus”/fish both for what Jesus “blessed” as well as what was distributed. I suspect the same is true for the fourth account but I didn’t feel a need to look at it. I’d like to know what the word for “relish” is that you think is used in the Greek text.Ah, but two out of three versions of the Gospel do NOT say he fed the masses FISH, they say he fed the masses bread and relish. The most common relish of that time was made with ground olives, not fish. This is something you will not notice unless you read koine Greek.
Give me some “proof” that Jesus was a “Nazarene” in the sense you describe. The only thing I see in the New Testament is Jesus being called a Nazarene because he was from Nazareth. The later sect that arose (after the New Testament) was not known, as far as I know, for vegetarianism.Jesus was a Nazarene (member of a sect, not someone born in Nazareth) and as such, was vegetarian, He never ate lamb as part of his Passover Seder.Christ appeared as docetic, and His disciples first believed He was a ghost.
The disciples of Jesus did not “believe he was a ghost.” Some of their initial reaction was to think he was a spirit but Jesus directly countered that by pointing to the reality of his flesh.
And, yes, I know about Marcion and the Gnostics but I also know about those who refuted them and showed their teachings were fundamentally opposed to the New Testament writings (e.g., Irenaeus, Justin Marytr). Even Marcion rejected much of the New Testament as well as all of the Old Testament arising from his mythology of many gods, the Old Testament god being the virgin-born son of a goddess named Sophia, etc., etc. If you want to believe such things, go right ahead but we are no longer having a conversation about the Bible in that case since Marcionism and Gnosticism in general are simply contrary to the Bible. If you want to say that the Council of Nicea was a perversion of the New Testament sources that preceded the council, it will not be very helpful to appeal to Gnosticism (since that movement, by its own admission, was contrary to the biblical texts).0 -
We are not naturally at the top of the food chain.
Of course we are. The food chain isn't just who/what eats who/what. It's also about intelligence. Humans as a whole are smarter than other species.
Sources?
Sources for humans being more intelligent than other animals? Really? Isn't that a given? If not, here's a quick source:
The key differences between human and animal cognition arise in four areas:
The ability to recombine different types of knowledge and information to gain new understanding
The ability to generalise apply a “rule” or solution for a known problem to a new and different situation
The ability to create symbolic representations of sensory input and to easily understand them
The ability to detach raw sensory and perceptual input from modes of thought.
http://www.aboutintelligence.co.uk/why-humans-more-intelligent-animals.html0 -
I'm pretty sure what puts us at the top is our intellect. :huh:You're at the top of the food chain in front of a lion, tiger, alligator, etc., only if you happen to have a weapon in your hand.
Just sayin'.
So if you're out on the African savannah without a gun and a lion comes around, you're going to talk it to death?
Our intellect allows us to create and use weapons to make up for our physical shortcomings. But without that weapon, you are not at the top of the chain.
We are at the top of the food chain because we are a species that is not hunted for food and are not a food source of another species. We do however hunt and survive on nearly any animal species.
The African savannah is a stretch... a spider could kill me but I'm still higher up on the food chain.
We would be hunted if we lived in the wild like the rest of the animal kindgdom.
We are not naturally at the top of the food chain.
ETA; If any organism is at the top of the food chain, it's bacteria.
You are welcome to take your place with the rest of the animal kingdom. In the meantime, I will take mine on top of the food chain.0 -
how do you all feel about this:
For a period of time in my step-daughter's life, she decided she didn't want to eat beef. It began when she met a neighbor's cow, and continued for a period of about ten years. During that time, she never (knowingly) ate beef.
She has four siblings. There were times when the meat ingredient of dinner was beef. If it was a steak, it was easy enough to let her have extra veggies, make a PB sandwich, whatever. I never fought her on this or forced her to eat a steak.
But......I did lie to her. Anytime I made lasagna, I made it with ground beef. I seasoned it and browned it and crumbled it all up into the sauce. And then I told her it was made of italian sausage (pork).
Why? Because catering to her wishes while feeding seven people wasn't always doable. And lying to her was easier than trying to change her mind. Because I thought it was silly to eliminate beef just because our neighbors had a cow that was cute.
So......am I a monster? Going straight to hell?
(if it matters.....total number of occurrences......maybe 4)
I'm about to go work out but I look forward to your thoughts..................:drinker:0 -
We are not naturally at the top of the food chain.
Of course we are. The food chain isn't just who/what eats who/what. It's also about intelligence. Humans as a whole are smarter than other species.
Sources?
Sources for humans being more intelligent than other animals? Really? Isn't that a given? If
hahahahaHA - no, Summertime, humans as the highest form of intelligence on this planet is not a given nor, I would argue, should it be. In fact, any time you think something should be a particular way because that is your inclination, know that is a big RED FLAG. This topic intrigues me so I'm going to start a new discussion on it as it doesn't really belong here. Let me just leave this little fun video from the Ellen show, where she regularly documents in a lighthearted way the superior intelligence of animals:
http://ellen.warnerbros.com/2011/04/animals_are_smarter_than_humans_0411.php
That's only for fun. There are serious deep arguments for the limitation of human intelligence - David Hume and Ben Franklin both were humbled by how much our species can truly never know.
-Debra0 -
how do you all feel about this:
For a period of time in my step-daughter's life, she decided she didn't want to eat beef. It began when she met a neighbor's cow, and continued for a period of about ten years. During that time, she never (knowingly) ate beef.
She has four siblings. There were times when the meat ingredient of dinner was beef. If it was a steak, it was easy enough to let her have extra veggies, make a PB sandwich, whatever. I never fought her on this or forced her to eat a steak.
But......I did lie to her. Anytime I made lasagna, I made it with ground beef. I seasoned it and browned it and crumbled it all up into the sauce. And then I told her it was made of italian sausage (pork).
Why? Because catering to her wishes while feeding seven people wasn't always doable. And lying to her was easier than trying to change her mind. Because I thought it was silly to eliminate beef just because our neighbors had a cow that was cute.
So......am I a monster? Going straight to hell?
(if it matters.....total number of occurrences......maybe 4)
I'm about to go work out but I look forward to your thoughts..................:drinker:
:laugh:0 -
how do you all feel about this:
For a period of time in my step-daughter's life, she decided she didn't want to eat beef. It began when she met a neighbor's cow, and continued for a period of about ten years. During that time, she never (knowingly) ate beef.
She has four siblings. There were times when the meat ingredient of dinner was beef. If it was a steak, it was easy enough to let her have extra veggies, make a PB sandwich, whatever. I never fought her on this or forced her to eat a steak.
But......I did lie to her. Anytime I made lasagna, I made it with ground beef. I seasoned it and browned it and crumbled it all up into the sauce. And then I told her it was made of italian sausage (pork).
Why? Because catering to her wishes while feeding seven people wasn't always doable. And lying to her was easier than trying to change her mind. Because I thought it was silly to eliminate beef just because our neighbors had a cow that was cute.
So......am I a monster? Going straight to hell?
(if it matters.....total number of occurrences......maybe 4)
I'm about to go work out but I look forward to your thoughts..................:drinker:
I understand the practicality of feeding a family, but as a vegetarian, I would feel betrayed if someone gave me meat without my knowledge and lied about it. I'm not sure about your step-daughter's rejection of beef, while eating pork, etc. It's sort of a half-baked ethical stance, but I think I would have honored it.0 -
how do you all feel about this:
For a period of time in my step-daughter's life, she decided she didn't want to eat beef. It began when she met a neighbor's cow, and continued for a period of about ten years. During that time, she never (knowingly) ate beef.
She has four siblings. There were times when the meat ingredient of dinner was beef. If it was a steak, it was easy enough to let her have extra veggies, make a PB sandwich, whatever. I never fought her on this or forced her to eat a steak.
But......I did lie to her. Anytime I made lasagna, I made it with ground beef. I seasoned it and browned it and crumbled it all up into the sauce. And then I told her it was made of italian sausage (pork).
Why? Because catering to her wishes while feeding seven people wasn't always doable. And lying to her was easier than trying to change her mind. Because I thought it was silly to eliminate beef just because our neighbors had a cow that was cute.
So......am I a monster? Going straight to hell?
(if it matters.....total number of occurrences......maybe 4)
I'm about to go work out but I look forward to your thoughts..................:drinker:
If she was straight vegetarian or vegan than yeah I think you would have been very wrong, but meh she was eating all kinds of other meat so to me it isn't a very big deal. I don't condone lying to your children though........................but when I have them.......I am sure my mind will change. hehe I sneak veggie meat and other veggies in on my fiance when I can, WHAT?! he gets real meat 95% of the time damnit, and I am the one going the extra mile to cook it, plus it proves my point that his picky tastebuds aren't really that picky considering he never notices.0 -
how do you all feel about this:
For a period of time in my step-daughter's life, she decided she didn't want to eat beef. It began when she met a neighbor's cow, and continued for a period of about ten years. During that time, she never (knowingly) ate beef.
She has four siblings. There were times when the meat ingredient of dinner was beef. If it was a steak, it was easy enough to let her have extra veggies, make a PB sandwich, whatever. I never fought her on this or forced her to eat a steak.
But......I did lie to her. Anytime I made lasagna, I made it with ground beef. I seasoned it and browned it and crumbled it all up into the sauce. And then I told her it was made of italian sausage (pork).
Why? Because catering to her wishes while feeding seven people wasn't always doable. And lying to her was easier than trying to change her mind. Because I thought it was silly to eliminate beef just because our neighbors had a cow that was cute.
So......am I a monster? Going straight to hell?
(if it matters.....total number of occurrences......maybe 4)
I'm about to go work out but I look forward to your thoughts..................:drinker:
Imagine that! 7 kids?! Yeah, I wouldn't go out of my way to make special meals unless it was life threatening like an allergy.0 -
Despite your belittling of my remarks on Genesis 1:29, I don’t see any command there of vegetarianism (contrary to your prior assertion). The rest of the Bible doesn’t match your dubious inference (including the rest of the book of Genesis).Okay, why do you suppose the author put that in? It must be there for a reason. It doesn't say, "Have the fruits of the trees after you've finished hacking up a cow and bbqing it."
I do read Koine Greek and looked at three of the four accounts of the miracle of the loaves and fishes and all use the Greek word “ichthus”/fish both for what Jesus “blessed” as well as what was distributed. I suspect the same is true for the fourth account but I didn’t feel a need to look at it. I’d like to know what the word for “relish” is that you think is used in the Greek text.Ah, but two out of three versions of the Gospel do NOT say he fed the masses FISH, they say he fed the masses bread and relish. The most common relish of that time was made with ground olives, not fish. This is something you will not notice unless you read koine Greek.
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oψαρῖον - I would check again if I were you. It is also listed on page 65 of the Greek section of The New Strong Concordance.
Also, in Ireanaeus' Against Heresies (2.22.3, 2.23.4) the story is told without fish. Same in Arnobius, Against the Heathen, as well as in Eusebius, Proof of the Gospel (3,4)
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Give me some “proof” that Jesus was a “Nazarene” in the sense you describe. The only thing I see in the New Testament is Jesus being called a Nazarene because he was from Nazareth. The later sect that arose (after the New Testament) was not known, as far as I know, for vegetarianism.Jesus was a Nazarene (member of a sect, not someone born in Nazareth) and as such, was vegetarian, He never ate lamb as part of his Passover Seder.
*************
The Nazarenes were a pre-Christian sect (like the Essenes) and were so referred to by Epiphanius : "The Nazarenes differed from the Jews in that they did not sacrifice nor did they eat flesh. " Page 198, A Critical Investigation of Epiphanius' klnowledge of the Ebionites; a Translation and Critical Dsicussion of "Panarion" Glenn Alan Koch, U of Pennsylvania Ph.D. 1976 The Nazarenes likely grew out of and were part of the Pythagorean Movement, and definitely preceded Christ.
Epiphanius, although he lived in the 4th Century, wrote Panarion, in which he described the predecessors of Christianity as well as contemporaries who were heretics. He asserted that the followers of Jesus were known as Nasarenes which sect he said antedated Christ and existed after him
Also, Josephus described John the Baptist as a vegetarian, and said all Nazarenes of the First Century were also vegetarians. This was in the Jewish war, but only survives in the Slavonic version. The Roman Church did a great job of wiping out all traces of Jesus' vegetarianism.
********************Christ appeared as docetic, and His disciples first believed He was a ghost.
The disciples of Jesus did not “believe he was a ghost.” Some of their initial reaction was to think he was a spirit but Jesus directly countered that by pointing to the reality of his flesh.
And, yes, I know about Marcion and the Gnostics but I also know about those who refuted them and showed their teachings were fundamentally opposed to the New Testament writings (e.g., Irenaeus, Justin Marytr). Even Marcion rejected much of the New Testament as well as all of the Old Testament arising from his mythology of many gods, the Old Testament god being the virgin-born son of a goddess named Sophia, etc., etc. If you want to believe such things, go right ahead but we are no longer having a conversation about the Bible in that case since Marcionism and Gnosticism in general are simply contrary to the Bible. If you want to say that the Council of Nicea was a perversion of the New Testament sources that preceded the council, it will not be very helpful to appeal to Gnosticism (since that movement, by its own admission, was contrary to the biblical texts).0
