Forcing Your Child to be Vegan/Vegetarian.
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My sources are myself. I believe that causing pain, suffering and death to an innocent living being, capable of pain and suffering, for no other reason except from profit, public demand and greed is immoral and wrong.
The words "immoral" and "evil" usually have a religious or cultural basis. That's why I was wondering. It's one thing to "feel" something is bad, and another to have a basis for that feeling. If you have no basis for your morality, that's fine. I was just wondering if you did.0 -
Patti, the reason why is because she feels it is morally wrong. Whether or not you agree with her, she (or vegetarians) feels you are doing something bad and wrong by supporting the meat industry. So she wants you, and everyone else, to stop doing that.
A parallel I think you'll immediately understand: Some folks spend a lot of effort trying to convince pregnant women not to choose to have an abortion. They would never get an abortion themselves, but it still upsets them tremendously that other people would do that, and they don't want them to do that.
I'm just curious on the basis for ethical vegetarians to say it's morally wrong. Like, I can say why I believe abortion is wrong, and it's grounded in my Christianity. That's the basis for my moral beliefs. I'm really trying to be sincere in asking if there is a basis other than how one "feels". Perhaps I'm not approaching it the right way.
To me, it's an extension of 'Do not kill.' There is no Christian imperative to extend the 'Do not kill' commandment to non-human animals, but it just seems kind to do so. I can live well eating plants, and no animals need to be killed to feed me. So, I say, why not just 'say no' to gratuitous killing in the name of compassion to other creatures who share this planet with us.0 -
Patti, the reason why is because she feels it is morally wrong. Whether or not you agree with her, she (or vegetarians) feels you are doing something bad and wrong by supporting the meat industry. So she wants you, and everyone else, to stop doing that.
A parallel I think you'll immediately understand: Some folks spend a lot of effort trying to convince pregnant women not to choose to have an abortion. They would never get an abortion themselves, but it still upsets them tremendously that other people would do that, and they don't want them to do that.
I'm just curious on the basis for ethical vegetarians to say it's morally wrong. Like, I can say why I believe abortion is wrong, and it's grounded in my Christianity. That's the basis for my moral beliefs. I'm really trying to be sincere in asking if there is a basis other than how one "feels". Perhaps I'm not approaching it the right way.
So why can you have morals based on your religion, but I can't have morals based on my thoughts/feelings/opinions?
Yours are somehow more valid because they're based on a book? (where does it say that abortion is wrong in the bible, anyway. Serious question)0 -
If you're doing it at all, I think you need to take some growth and development and nutrition courses. After that, sure, your kid, your rules. See how that works out when the kid is a teenager, though. :laugh:
My best friend's father was vegetarian. Her mother wasn't, but they all ate according to her father's eating habits. To this day, she rarely eats meat and neither do her three siblings. You grow up eating a certain way and that's what you're used to.
While none of them are strict vegetarians, they just rarely enjoy meat so they rarely eat it.
They're also, all four of them, extremely healthy people so the diet didn't harm them at all. In fact, the shortest of all four of them (two boys and two girls) is 5'7".0 -
My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?
The way these questions read to me--a vegetarian parent who is raising her children vegetarian:
1. "My question is, would you let your child choose?" No one would simply answer 'No' to this question, since s/he would worry about coming across like a controlling monster. It's a closed question, much like 'How often do you beat your wife?' .'
2. "Or force them into eating how you eat?" The word 'force' is a strongly emotive word. Again this is a closed question. Would anyone answer this way: "Yes, I'm a horrible parent who forces my kids to be little clones of me. I tolerate no individuality in my children".
3. "Is it too much to make separate meals?" The phraseology here implies laziness on the part of vegetarian parents. Most vegetarian parents aren't lazy, but are making active decisions to feed their families how they see fit.
4. "Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control." Again, who's going to answer 'No' to this. It's another closed question.
I agree with you. I'm not a vegetarian, but I immediately could see how biased-sounding the questions are.
Just by using the word "force" there is a negative connotation already created.
I think the word "force" is used because vegetarianism is looked at with a slightly suspicious eye by a lot of mainstream America. If someone is a vege, or a vegan, the stereotype is that they are some sort of hippie granola birkenstock-wearing type.
I've also observed that this type of reaction doesn't seem to happen as much if the vegetarianism is religious. Would you ask a Hindu if they are going to "force" their children to be vegetarians, or would you just easily accept that naturally, children will be reared with the same religious values as their parents. But if the vegetarian is an American, who chose to be vege because (insert any reason), then we wonder why that weirdo has chosen to be different from us? What's wrong with meat, HUH?
Very well stated!! Thank you.0 -
My sources are myself. I believe that causing pain, suffering and death to an innocent living being, capable of pain and suffering, for no other reason except from profit, public demand and greed is immoral and wrong.
The words "immoral" and "evil" usually have a religious or cultural basis. That's why I was wondering. It's one thing to "feel" something is bad, and another to have a basis for that feeling. If you have no basis for your morality, that's fine. I was just wondering if you did.
Perhaps they do, but that probably has something to do with the fact that most people are theists.
And perhaps my belief is cultural. Culture dictates that killing is wrong. I don't see the need to discriminate animals from that viewpoint.0 -
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Patti, the reason why is because she feels it is morally wrong. Whether or not you agree with her, she (or vegetarians) feels you are doing something bad and wrong by supporting the meat industry. So she wants you, and everyone else, to stop doing that.
A parallel I think you'll immediately understand: Some folks spend a lot of effort trying to convince pregnant women not to choose to have an abortion. They would never get an abortion themselves, but it still upsets them tremendously that other people would do that, and they don't want them to do that.
I'm just curious on the basis for ethical vegetarians to say it's morally wrong. Like, I can say why I believe abortion is wrong, and it's grounded in my Christianity. That's the basis for my moral beliefs. I'm really trying to be sincere in asking if there is a basis other than how one "feels". Perhaps I'm not approaching it the right way.
So why can you have morals based on your religion, but I can't have morals based on my thoughts/feelings/opinions?
Yours are somehow more valid because they're based on a book? (where does it say that abortion is wrong in the bible, anyway. Serious question)
We think it's morally wrong to murder an animal to feed ourselves when we don't have to. Especially those of us who know we could never take an animal's life on our own and don't feel right eating something we bought in the grocery store and being that separated from the process.0 -
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:0 -
Patti, the reason why is because she feels it is morally wrong. Whether or not you agree with her, she (or vegetarians) feels you are doing something bad and wrong by supporting the meat industry. So she wants you, and everyone else, to stop doing that.
A parallel I think you'll immediately understand: Some folks spend a lot of effort trying to convince pregnant women not to choose to have an abortion. They would never get an abortion themselves, but it still upsets them tremendously that other people would do that, and they don't want them to do that.
I'm just curious on the basis for ethical vegetarians to say it's morally wrong. Like, I can say why I believe abortion is wrong, and it's grounded in my Christianity. That's the basis for my moral beliefs. I'm really trying to be sincere in asking if there is a basis other than how one "feels". Perhaps I'm not approaching it the right way.
So why can you have morals based on your religion, but I can't have morals based on my thoughts/feelings/opinions?
Yours are somehow more valid because they're based on a book? (where does it say that abortion is wrong in the bible, anyway. Serious question)
I agree that religion isn't the only thing that 'counts' when it comes to 'grounding' an ethical point of view. An ethic can be grounded in secular influences like science, and logic. Bringing up religious doctrine doesn't seem fitting on a debate board, unless everyone is coming from the same religious tradition.0 -
That's what I'm wondering. Where do most ethical vegans/vegetarians ground their beliefs? Again, I'm asking sincerely.I agree that religion isn't the only thing that 'counts' when it comes to 'grounding' an ethical point of view. An ethic can be grounded in secular influences like science, and logic.0 -
I split the difference and just eat vegetarians.0
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That's what I'm wondering. Where do most ethical vegans/vegetarians ground their beliefs? Again, I'm asking sincerely.I agree that religion isn't the only thing that 'counts' when it comes to 'grounding' an ethical point of view. An ethic can be grounded in secular influences like science, and logic.
I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?0 -
That's what I'm wondering. Where do most ethical vegans/vegetarians ground their beliefs? Again, I'm asking sincerely.I agree that religion isn't the only thing that 'counts' when it comes to 'grounding' an ethical point of view. An ethic can be grounded in secular influences like science, and logic.
Some would 'ground' it on religious tradition--some Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains for example. Speaking for myself, I have a Christian background and have been immersed in that thinking as a child. When I heard the Ten Commandments, the 'Do not kill' injunction didn't seem to go far enough to satisfy me. I remember thinking that in catechism, but of course never said it aloud since the nuns would have called the priest in to totally dress me down.
In my personal case, another meat-eater I knew overheard me saying how I thought bloody rare steak looked disgusting. He asked 'You eat hamburgers don't you?' I answered 'Yes' and he slammed me hard, especially because I was widely known to be a 'animal lover.' When he called me a hypocrite, all I could do was agree. I became a vegetarian that moment, and that was 38 years ago.
Since that time I have read books on the ethics of animal treatment. Peter Singer was an early influence of mine. But, my 'grounding' is more influenced by looking around and seeing how unnecessary all this suffering is. No one is telling me to accept a vegan doctrine and no one is influencing me to do what I do each and every day. It just makes sense to me to reduce suffering by my consumer choices when it is easy and possible to do so.0 -
I split the difference and just eat vegetarians.
Have they told you you're good at it?
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Getting back to the OP's original topic. 'Forcing your child to be vegan/vegetarian' implies the child has a certain birthright to eat the dominant meat-inclusive diet in this country. Do you believe children are born with a right to eat meat, and do you think vegetarian parents are wrong to deny them meat?0
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I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?0 -
Some would 'ground' it on religious tradition--some Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains for example. Speaking for myself, I have a Christian background and have been immersed in that thinking as a child. When I heard the Ten Commandments, the 'Do not kill' injunction didn't seem to go far enough to satisfy me. I remember thinking that in catechism, but of course never said it aloud since the nuns would have called the priest in to totally dress me down.
In my personal case, another meat-eater I knew overheard me saying how I thought bloody rare steak looked disgusting. He asked 'You eat hamburgers don't you?' I answered 'Yes' and he slammed me hard, especially because I was widely known to be a 'animal lover.' When he called me a hypocrite, all I could do was agree. I became a vegetarian that moment, and that was 38 years ago.
Since that time I have read books on the ethics of animal treatment. Peter Singer was an early influence of mine. But, my 'grounding' is more influenced by looking around and seeing how unnecessary all this suffering is. No one is telling me to accept a vegan doctrine and no one is influencing me to do what I do each and every day. It just makes sense to me to reduce suffering by my consumer choices when it is easy and possible to do so.
Thank you.0 -
Going back to the original topic if I was a vegetarian yes I would feed my child meat. As a parent I need to give my child the best possible outcome to the best of my abilities. Meat is an important part of a balanced diet.
As a meat eater I get all my meat and animal products from a farmers market or friends. I'm lucky enough to be close to one that is quite cheap. I think we need to have much more humane methods of cultivating meat and animal products.
I went vegetarian at 18. I almost died as s result of doing so. I need meat for my body to function.
Comparing meat eaters to slave owners, murderers and pedophiles shows your complete and utter ignorance on any matters avaliable to rational human beings. Maybe I'm throwing petrol at a fire but if you truly believe that those three examples are comparable to a human eating meat, your brain is not functioning correctly, dare I say from a lack of animal product?0 -
I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?
There is no vegan dogma which vegans swallow whole. My religious background is Catholic, but the church's interpretation of Christ's teaching doesn't factor much into my vegetarian ethic. I personally believe Jesus's message was one of peace and love, and for me, that can extend to a wider circle of beings and include animals. But, that isn't the official doctrine of the church, so I wouldn't say my ethics are grounded in church teachings.0
