Forcing Your Child to be Vegan/Vegetarian.
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That's what I'm wondering. Where do most ethical vegans/vegetarians ground their beliefs? Again, I'm asking sincerely.I agree that religion isn't the only thing that 'counts' when it comes to 'grounding' an ethical point of view. An ethic can be grounded in secular influences like science, and logic.0 -
I split the difference and just eat vegetarians.0
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That's what I'm wondering. Where do most ethical vegans/vegetarians ground their beliefs? Again, I'm asking sincerely.I agree that religion isn't the only thing that 'counts' when it comes to 'grounding' an ethical point of view. An ethic can be grounded in secular influences like science, and logic.
I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?0 -
That's what I'm wondering. Where do most ethical vegans/vegetarians ground their beliefs? Again, I'm asking sincerely.I agree that religion isn't the only thing that 'counts' when it comes to 'grounding' an ethical point of view. An ethic can be grounded in secular influences like science, and logic.
Some would 'ground' it on religious tradition--some Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains for example. Speaking for myself, I have a Christian background and have been immersed in that thinking as a child. When I heard the Ten Commandments, the 'Do not kill' injunction didn't seem to go far enough to satisfy me. I remember thinking that in catechism, but of course never said it aloud since the nuns would have called the priest in to totally dress me down.
In my personal case, another meat-eater I knew overheard me saying how I thought bloody rare steak looked disgusting. He asked 'You eat hamburgers don't you?' I answered 'Yes' and he slammed me hard, especially because I was widely known to be a 'animal lover.' When he called me a hypocrite, all I could do was agree. I became a vegetarian that moment, and that was 38 years ago.
Since that time I have read books on the ethics of animal treatment. Peter Singer was an early influence of mine. But, my 'grounding' is more influenced by looking around and seeing how unnecessary all this suffering is. No one is telling me to accept a vegan doctrine and no one is influencing me to do what I do each and every day. It just makes sense to me to reduce suffering by my consumer choices when it is easy and possible to do so.0 -
I split the difference and just eat vegetarians.
Have they told you you're good at it?
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Getting back to the OP's original topic. 'Forcing your child to be vegan/vegetarian' implies the child has a certain birthright to eat the dominant meat-inclusive diet in this country. Do you believe children are born with a right to eat meat, and do you think vegetarian parents are wrong to deny them meat?0
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I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?0 -
Some would 'ground' it on religious tradition--some Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains for example. Speaking for myself, I have a Christian background and have been immersed in that thinking as a child. When I heard the Ten Commandments, the 'Do not kill' injunction didn't seem to go far enough to satisfy me. I remember thinking that in catechism, but of course never said it aloud since the nuns would have called the priest in to totally dress me down.
In my personal case, another meat-eater I knew overheard me saying how I thought bloody rare steak looked disgusting. He asked 'You eat hamburgers don't you?' I answered 'Yes' and he slammed me hard, especially because I was widely known to be a 'animal lover.' When he called me a hypocrite, all I could do was agree. I became a vegetarian that moment, and that was 38 years ago.
Since that time I have read books on the ethics of animal treatment. Peter Singer was an early influence of mine. But, my 'grounding' is more influenced by looking around and seeing how unnecessary all this suffering is. No one is telling me to accept a vegan doctrine and no one is influencing me to do what I do each and every day. It just makes sense to me to reduce suffering by my consumer choices when it is easy and possible to do so.
Thank you.0 -
Going back to the original topic if I was a vegetarian yes I would feed my child meat. As a parent I need to give my child the best possible outcome to the best of my abilities. Meat is an important part of a balanced diet.
As a meat eater I get all my meat and animal products from a farmers market or friends. I'm lucky enough to be close to one that is quite cheap. I think we need to have much more humane methods of cultivating meat and animal products.
I went vegetarian at 18. I almost died as s result of doing so. I need meat for my body to function.
Comparing meat eaters to slave owners, murderers and pedophiles shows your complete and utter ignorance on any matters avaliable to rational human beings. Maybe I'm throwing petrol at a fire but if you truly believe that those three examples are comparable to a human eating meat, your brain is not functioning correctly, dare I say from a lack of animal product?0 -
I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?
There is no vegan dogma which vegans swallow whole. My religious background is Catholic, but the church's interpretation of Christ's teaching doesn't factor much into my vegetarian ethic. I personally believe Jesus's message was one of peace and love, and for me, that can extend to a wider circle of beings and include animals. But, that isn't the official doctrine of the church, so I wouldn't say my ethics are grounded in church teachings.0 -
I just don't see why some vegetarians get so defensive on this topic. I couldn't care less if you think I'm eating DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. I like meat and so does my family. I couldn't care less if you don't like dead animal parts.Macpatti: Let me flip the questions on their head. Try to read them anew, and see how they sound to you.
Forcing your child to EAT DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?
Maybe we get defensive because it involves murder?
Killing animals is not murder. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing a person.
Agreed. How does one even begin to process the notion that killing animals is murder!
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing...0 -
Going back to the original topic if I was a vegetarian yes I would feed my child meat. As a parent I need to give my child the best possible outcome to the best of my abilities. Meat is an important part of a balanced diet.
As a meat eater I get all my meat and animal products from a farmers market or friends. I'm lucky enough to be close to one that is quite cheap. I think we need to have much more humane methods of cultivating meat and animal products.
I went vegetarian at 18. I almost died as s result of doing so. I need meat for my body to function.
Comparing meat eaters to slave owners, murderers and pedophiles shows your complete and utter ignorance on any matters avaliable to rational human beings. Maybe I'm throwing petrol at a fire but if you truly believe that those three examples are comparable to a human eating meat, your brain is not functioning correctly, dare I say from a lack of animal product?
You are throwing petrol. The question is why?0 -
I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)0 -
I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)
I know the public boards prohibit discussions about politics and religion. It occurred to me that maybe that holds true here, too. Could someone clarify that to me. Maybe some of these points should be happening by private message.0 -
My child has been raised as I have, by the food pyramid, including meats.
In my opinion, animals were created to provide meat for human nourishment. Just as corn, beans, grains and various other things that grow were created to do the same. If my son chooses to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyles. That is perfectly fine by me. He can have what I make for dinner minus the meat or he can prepare his own food until he moves out.
I get some meat from the grocery but also from a local butcher when I can. My dad worked a second job there when I was a child. I've seen the local cows being brought in and watched them get slaughtered before being processed. Has never bothered me.0 -
Thank you for your comments. I condensed what I had to say about Kant because I did not expect that anyone on this board would be so familiar with his philosophy.
Please also understand that knowledge of biology and psychology during Kant's time (18th century) was extremely primitive as compared with today. His assertions about animals were undoubtedly based on perceptions of that day, and as you can imagine, I agree with some of them and disagree with some.
http://www.beholders.org/mind/environmental/149-talkingkoko.html
As you can see from my link, some animals can be shown to be logical and able to use language to communicate with other species such as humans. Needless to say, the article also shows how compassionate these creatures are. These are well developed sentient beings who have as much intrinsic right to live as we do. Indeed, Koko, has more ability to communicate than some retarded humans. Therefore, the categorical imperative should be broadened, even by your own criteria, to include sentient beings. I can think of no logical argument to exclude them.
I missed this one (busy thread!).
In reply, I would say that if there is good reason to think that other animals besides humans are capable of the kind of “transcendent” thinking, reflection, understanding, etc., that we humans are capable of doing, then it logically follows that they should be included in the range of creatures protected by law as having a “right to life.” I still don’t see evidence that this is the case, however. The story on Koko the gorilla is a very optimistic one that doesn’t report the serious debates surrounding Koko’s real ability (when compared to humans). Apparently very little has been done to scientifically test the claims that have been made and much (or nearly all) of the interpretation of Koko’s sign-language is left to the handlers. Outside objective tests have not been done (as far as I know). The on-line interviews with Koko that are available on-line are more humorous than convincing. Most of the time Koko responds to questions with something that makes no logical sense and the few times there might be some connection the meaning is debatable (and is also typically surrounded by the use of signs that don’t make sense in that context). I don’t know all the facts but I certainly haven’t seen anything that suggests that Koko “understands” in the sense that I am talking about understanding (transcendent understanding).0 -
We are permitted to discuss politcs and religion in groups. That's much of what we debate, in fact!I know the public boards prohibit discussions about politics and religion. It occurred to me that maybe that holds true here, too. Could someone clarify that to me. Maybe some of these points should be happening by private message.
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I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)
I know the public boards prohibit discussions about politics and religion. It occurred to me that maybe that holds true here, too. Could someone clarify that to me. Maybe some of these points should be happening by private message.
Hello there, I am creator (not the creator lol) and one of the mods. This is a group area and a debate club so these rules do not apply here as long as we are respectful. The rules of the group are at the top of the Topic List please peruse them when you get the chance. Thanks0 -
I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)
I know the public boards prohibit discussions about politics and religion. It occurred to me that maybe that holds true here, too. Could someone clarify that to me. Maybe some of these points should be happening by private message.
Hello there, I am creator (not the creator lol) and one of the mods. This is a group area and a debate club so these rules do not apply here as long as we are respectful. The rules of the group are at the top of the Topic List please peruse them when you get the chance. Thanks
Thanks for the clarification. I hear from Steven way too much!0 -
My child has been raised as I have, by the food pyramid, including meats.
In my opinion, animals were created to provide meat for human nourishment. Just as corn, beans, grains and various other things that grow were created to do the same. If my son chooses to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyles. That is perfectly fine by me. He can have what I make for dinner minus the meat or he can prepare his own food until he moves out.
I get some meat from the grocery but also from a local butcher when I can. My dad worked a second job there when I was a child. I've seen the local cows being brought in and watched them get slaughtered before being processed. Has never bothered me.
It sounds like you have come to a good conclusion for yourself. And, I like the openminded attitude you have in supporting any future decision your son might make to become vegetarian. My wonderful meat-eating parents were supportive when I went vegetarian in my teens, and I am very thankful for that.0 -
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)
Your comments are brief but filled with problems.
Concerning Genesis 1:29, I don’t see a command here. God simply gave plants that would be good as human food. There is no prohibition of eating meat there.
The Bible never says Jesus did not eat meat. He multiplied the loaves and FISH to feed the multitudes (implying he doesn’t have a problem with people eating fish). He celebrated the Passover Meal throughout his life and shortly before his death (the Passover Meal was centered around eating Lamb) and certainly never expressed an objection to this central celebration of the Hebrew religion. Not sure what you mean by the “Docetic” Christ (normal Docetism refers to the belief that Jesus was not really a man but only appeared to be so), but I believe that Jesus had a true, transformed material body after the resurrection.
Concerning your third paragraph, since I don’t see Nicea or the orthodox theological developments that followed that council as being contrary to “what the early Church was really like,” I obviously will disagree with your admittedly “heretical” notions on that!0 -
I've already stated that my morals are grounded in Christianity. So, when I believe something to be "right/wrong", "good/evil", I have a basis for that. I was curious if most ethical vegans and vegetarians ground their belief system in their religion or on how they feel.I don't know about "most vegetarians," but the Golden Rule is about as close to a universal moral imperative as I have ever come across. I guess an equally fair question would be where and whence do you derive YOU moral beliefs?
If you read the bible objectively, you will see that God originally commanded that man be vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)
Jesus himself never ate meat (the Docetic Christ ate fish to show that he was real, but that was after the crucificion.)
Honestly, the Early Church is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, but I rarely get the opportunity. (My own beliefs would be heretical in any modern dogmatic Church: I tend to look at what the early Church was really like, not the Post Nicean deconstruction of it.)
God making improvements imo...
Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. (Genesis 9:3)0 -
My child has been raised as I have, by the food pyramid, including meats.
In my opinion, animals were created to provide meat for human nourishment. Just as corn, beans, grains and various other things that grow were created to do the same. If my son chooses to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyles. That is perfectly fine by me. He can have what I make for dinner minus the meat or he can prepare his own food until he moves out.
I get some meat from the grocery but also from a local butcher when I can. My dad worked a second job there when I was a child. I've seen the local cows being brought in and watched them get slaughtered before being processed. Has never bothered me.
It sounds like you have come to a good conclusion for yourself. And, I like the openminded attitude you have in supporting any future decision your son might make to become vegetarian. My wonderful meat-eating parents were supportive when I went vegetarian in my teens, and I am very thankful for that.
I don't have any issues with it. I once went 3 months without eating meat, lost 45 lbs living off of yogurt, bread cheese and fruit in very small quantities. Wasn't a very healthy diet and I gained 60 back fairly quickly. :explode: It wasn't an ethical decision but more of a self-test to see IF I could do it.
I do however have an issue with people forcing their lifestyle on others. I believe you should let your children eat what they crave when they begin eating solid foods. Put any option out there and see what they choose to put in their mouths. Forcing them to either eat meat or not isn't much different than forcing a religion or belief on them in my opinion.0 -
Parents are supposed to guide and teach. Not teaching them your beliefs, whether dietary or religious, is indeed teaching them something. It's teaching them you don't care enough about it, and when it's things that are crucial to their health, that's not a good thing.I do however have an issue with people forcing their lifestyle on others. I believe you should let your children eat what they crave when they begin eating solid foods. Put any option out there and see what they choose to put in their mouths. Forcing them to either eat meat or not isn't much different than forcing a religion or belief on them in my opinion.0 -
Parents are supposed to guide and teach. Not teaching them your beliefs, whether dietary or religious, is indeed teaching them something. It's teaching them you don't care enough about it, and when it's things that are crucial to their health, that's not a good thing.I do however have an issue with people forcing their lifestyle on others. I believe you should let your children eat what they crave when they begin eating solid foods. Put any option out there and see what they choose to put in their mouths. Forcing them to either eat meat or not isn't much different than forcing a religion or belief on them in my opinion.
MacPatti: This very much proves how people can disagree on some points, and agree on others. I very much agree with everything you said here about conveying your values and health-based lifestyle decisions to your children. Why are we here, if not to teach and guide them?0 -
Exactly. :flowerforyou:MacPatti: This very much proves how people can disagree on some points, and agree on others. I very much agree with everything you said here about conveying your values and health-based lifestyle decisions to your children. Why are we here, if not to teach and guide them?0 -
Parents are supposed to guide and teach. Not teaching them your beliefs, whether dietary or religious, is indeed teaching them something. It's teaching them you don't care enough about it, and when it's things that are crucial to their health, that's not a good thing.I do however have an issue with people forcing their lifestyle on others. I believe you should let your children eat what they crave when they begin eating solid foods. Put any option out there and see what they choose to put in their mouths. Forcing them to either eat meat or not isn't much different than forcing a religion or belief on them in my opinion.
MacPatti: This very much proves how people can disagree on some points, and agree on others. I very much agree with everything you said here about conveying your values and health-based lifestyle decisions to your children. Why are we here, if not to teach and guide them?
I DO believe in teching and guiding. I believe in raising my son to be healthy, polite and happy. I can do those things WITHOUT saying you have to eat meat or you can't eat meat. I can teach my son to have good morals and be a good person without making him believe in God and go to church.. I can teach him right from wrong without making him stand on the side of the road at 4 years old holding up a picture of an aborted fetus like some parents do...0 -
Parents are supposed to guide and teach. Not teaching them your beliefs, whether dietary or religious, is indeed teaching them something. It's teaching them you don't care enough about it, and when it's things that are crucial to their health, that's not a good thing.I do however have an issue with people forcing their lifestyle on others. I believe you should let your children eat what they crave when they begin eating solid foods. Put any option out there and see what they choose to put in their mouths. Forcing them to either eat meat or not isn't much different than forcing a religion or belief on them in my opinion.
MacPatti: This very much proves how people can disagree on some points, and agree on others. I very much agree with everything you said here about conveying your values and health-based lifestyle decisions to your children. Why are we here, if not to teach and guide them?
I DO believe in teching and guiding. I believe in raising my son to be healthy, polite and happy. I can do those things WITHOUT saying you have to eat meat or you can't eat meat. I can teach my son to have good morals and be a good person without making him believe in God and go to church.. I can teach him right from wrong without making him stand on the side of the road at 4 years old holding up a picture of an aborted fetus like some parents do...
You had me for part of that, but your last statement was incendiary.0 -
My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?
A child cannot "choose" their own food 'til a certain age. At that age, then, it all depends. Are they just being a cranky pants and/or rebellious and not wanting to eat just to piss me off? Are they perhaps allergic to it? Do they simply not like it? Different factors come into play. I would never, ever knowingly feed someone something they're allergic to. As far as not liking something, well, that's fine. They don't have to like it. Personally, I like to experiment and cook, so I'd look for alternatives, as well as incorporating what everyone else likes, as well.
Like Patti stated, kids eat what we give them, until they get their own money and purchase their own stuff. And then it goes back to the first question--no, I wouldn't force-feed someone food they're allergic to, and I would not starve them.
"Is it too much to make separate meals?" that's a personal question. To some people, they don't want to make a separate meal. To others, it wouldn't bother them and they would.
Control can go both ways. A child can want to exercise how much control they have, but really, I feel any parent can get around that. Children will eat when they're hungry, unless something is wrong with them, and then the problem isn't usually food, it's something else. On the other hand, I grew up with a very controlling father--he controlled exactly what we ate, how much we ate (the term "overloaded portion sizes" doesn't even hold a candle), even how we ate (if he felt we were eating too fast or too slow, then we'd be in trouble). Also, if we happened to like a certain food that he doesn't like, and he saw us eating it, we'd be in trouble. His behavior is downright disturbing and abusive, and unfortunately, in most cases, the child is helpless against that.0 -
Comparing meat eaters to slave owners, murderers and pedophiles shows your complete and utter ignorance on any matters avaliable to rational human beings. Maybe I'm throwing petrol at a fire but if you truly believe that those three examples are comparable to a human eating meat, your brain is not functioning correctly, dare I say from a lack of animal product?
LOL, I always find it hilarious and absurd how hard it is for some people to see the connection.
Number one, I didn't compare meat eaters to slave owners. I made the point that, in the eyes of the law, killing a slave would not be murder. Now, of course, killing any human is murder, or at least assumed so until a verdict can be reached.
I did not compare meat eaters to peadophiles. I made the point that peadophillia is widely seen as wrong, and that we are all (I'd assume we all are?) bothered by it, even though we wouldn't do it ourselves. I made this analogy because I was asked why I am bothered by other people eating meat.
I regard murder as the killing of an innocent and living being. Therefore, I regard killing animals as murder. Simple.
I would recommend comprehensive reading classes.0
This discussion has been closed.