Forcing Your Child to be Vegan/Vegetarian.

_VoV

I am on a debating board, discussing a topic that is of interest to me. You do know that in law, points are argued and one side is called the 'defense' and they DEFEND a position. Being 'defensive' is only natural in debate, though I think you are implying something quite different.

Good grief! I am on your side here (in regards to feeding your children what you want).

Okay, I'm getting caught up on the word 'defensive.' I'll drop it now. :flowerforyou:

vim_n_vigor

As a parent you are raising your children and influencing their lives forever. I have a feeling that I'll be forcing my little one to take a bath way more often then I am going to be shoving food down his throat.

This won't necessarily be true from the ages 2-4, kids don't really like to take the time out to sit at the table and eat - regardless of the choices!

VegesaurusRex

Macpatti: Let me flip the questions on their head. Try to read them anew, and see how they sound to you.
Forcing your child to EAT DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?

I just don't see why some vegetarians get so defensive on this topic. I couldn't care less if you think I'm eating DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. I like meat and so does my family. I couldn't care less if you don't like dead animal parts.

Maybe we get defensive because it involves murder?

Killing animals is not murder. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing a person.

Agreed. How does one even begin to process the notion that killing animals is murder!

For some of us, the question is how do we even begin to process the idea that killing animals is NOT murder. Killing unnecessarily is just wrong, period. If you need to survive, eat plants. If you want to protect the environment, eat plants. There is no NEED to kill animals.

bathsheba_c

I'm not saying that plants definitely feel pain. I am saying that we don't have evidence whether they do or don't. And that we only recently had evidence that animals do feel pain. Which makes it entirely possible that plants do feel pain, but we don't understand it yet because our frame of reference is an animal nervous system, so we don't know how to test whether or not they do.

Um, vegetarians? Do you not understand that us meat-eaters might be just a little tetchy about the vegetarianism thing when you literally believe we are murderers? Which might have something to do with us putting you on the defensive.

By the way, one might suggest that agriculture is immoral because it often involves the enslavement of animals to make use of their dung, milk, and physical labor. In which case, it's not clear what being vegetarian gets you.

VegesaurusRex

I'm not saying that plants definitely feel pain. I am saying that we don't have evidence whether they do or don't. And that we only recently had evidence that animals do feel pain. Which makes it entirely possible that plants do feel pain, but we don't understand it yet because our frame of reference is an animal nervous system, so we don't know how to test whether or not they do.

Um, vegetarians? Do you not understand that us meat-eaters might be just a little tetchy about the vegetarianism thing when you literally believe we are murderers? Which might have something to do with us putting you on the defensive.

By the way, one might suggest that agriculture is immoral because it often involves the enslavement of animals to make use of their dung, milk, and physical labor. In which case, it's not clear what being vegetarian gets you.

Again, there is no way plants can feel pain. No nervous system, no pain. Period.

Second, do you believe in killing animals when you don't need to to survive?

Thirdly, I agree about animal enslavement. It is wrong.

macpatti

For some of us, the question is how do we even begin to process the idea that killing animals is NOT murder. Killing unnecessarily is just wrong, period. If you need to survive, eat plants. If you want to protect the environment, eat plants. There is no NEED to kill animals.

That doesn't answer how killing animals is murder. I'm waiting for innerfatgirl to reply since she made the initial statement.

summertime_girl

Animal enslavement, is that like having a pet dog?

doorki

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

VegesaurusRex

For some of us, the question is how do we even begin to process the idea that killing animals is NOT murder. Killing unnecessarily is just wrong, period. If you need to survive, eat plants. If you want to protect the environment, eat plants. There is no NEED to kill animals.

That doesn't answer how killing animals is murder. I'm waiting for innerfatgirl to reply since she made the initial statement.

Innerfatgirl may certainly reply as she wishes, but I also feel that killing animals is murder, all the more so because it is unnecessary. Humans can survive quite nicely without killing other animals. Gratuitous killing and therefore gratuitous pain would offend the categorical imperative simply by virtue of being gratuitous.

VegesaurusRex

Animal enslavement, is that like having a pet dog?

I don't think the pets I have had feel enslaved. My dogs have had opportunities to run away, and never have. My cats have also had chances to escape, but always come back. Slaves don't exhibit that behavior.

VegesaurusRex

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

InnerFatGirl

Macpatti: Let me flip the questions on their head. Try to read them anew, and see how they sound to you.
Forcing your child to EAT DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?

I just don't see why some vegetarians get so defensive on this topic. I couldn't care less if you think I'm eating DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. I like meat and so does my family. I couldn't care less if you don't like dead animal parts.

Maybe we get defensive because it involves murder?

Killing animals is not murder. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing a person.

That is the legal definition. What the law says, isn't the gospel.

Not long ago, killing black slaves wasn't murder

InnerFatGirl

Macpatti: Let me flip the questions on their head. Try to read them anew, and see how they sound to you.
Forcing your child to EAT DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?

I just don't see why some vegetarians get so defensive on this topic. I couldn't care less if you think I'm eating DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. I like meat and so does my family. I couldn't care less if you don't like dead animal parts.

Maybe we get defensive because it involves murder?

Killing animals is not murder. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing a person.

Agreed. How does one even begin to process the notion that killing animals is murder!

How does one begin to process the notion?

By opening their mind, letting go of their ignorance and thinking with compassion. That's how.

doorki

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

_VoV

I'm not saying that plants definitely feel pain. I am saying that we don't have evidence whether they do or don't. And that we only recently had evidence that animals do feel pain. Which makes it entirely possible that plants do feel pain, but we don't understand it yet because our frame of reference is an animal nervous system, so we don't know how to test whether or not they do.

Um, vegetarians? Do you not understand that us meat-eaters might be just a little tetchy about the vegetarianism thing when you literally believe we are murderers? Which might have something to do with us putting you on the defensive.

By the way, one might suggest that agriculture is immoral because it often involves the enslavement of animals to make use of their dung, milk, and physical labor. In which case, it's not clear what being vegetarian gets you.

I don't judge meat-eaters. I grew up on a family farm. As a child, I have gutted chickens, and helped load our steers onto the truck to the slaughterhouse. Back then, I didn't give vegetarianism a single thought. And, I don't have a 'Meat is Murder' sticker on my car. People are where they are, and some people see this issue differently than I do.

My private wish would be that people think about these issues and explore its various facets, beyond the dominant point of view. I also wish for the mass production of the tastiest, most inexpensive lab grown meat possible. I personally wouldn't eat it, but I would smile knowing people can eat what they love without killing animals to make it happen.

VegesaurusRex

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

Quite correct. However, note the keywords here: Pain...Brain... Nervous System.

doorki

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

Quite correct. However, note the keywords here: Pain...Brain... Nervous System.

Okay, now reread my statement.

InnerFatGirl

I'm not saying that plants definitely feel pain. I am saying that we don't have evidence whether they do or don't. And that we only recently had evidence that animals do feel pain. Which makes it entirely possible that plants do feel pain, but we don't understand it yet because our frame of reference is an animal nervous system, so we don't know how to test whether or not they do.

Um, vegetarians? Do you not understand that us meat-eaters might be just a little tetchy about the vegetarianism thing when you literally believe we are murderers? Which might have something to do with us putting you on the defensive.

By the way, one might suggest that agriculture is immoral because it often involves the enslavement of animals to make use of their dung, milk, and physical labor. In which case, it's not clear what being vegetarian gets you.

But again, what biological point would there be in plants feeling pain?

And if they do, what are we to do? Animals eat plants. Should we do twice the damage?

And I don't care. Umm, meat eaters, don't you think it makes us tetchy when you guys say stuff like 'I love my meat' or 'I love dead flesh' or 'I'm going to enjoy my hamburger' etc.

Agriculture is not immoral, but using animals as slaves is. We have machines.

Turtlehurdle

Macpatti: Let me flip the questions on their head. Try to read them anew, and see how they sound to you.
Forcing your child to EAT DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?

I just don't see why some vegetarians get so defensive on this topic. I couldn't care less if you think I'm eating DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. I like meat and so does my family. I couldn't care less if you don't like dead animal parts.

Maybe we get defensive because it involves murder?

Killing animals is not murder. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing a person.

Agreed. How does one even begin to process the notion that killing animals is murder!

For some of us, the question is how do we even begin to process the idea that killing animals is NOT murder. Killing unnecessarily is just wrong, period. If you need to survive, eat plants. If you want to protect the environment, eat plants. There is no NEED to kill animals.

This is a flawed argument. Eat plants? How you do ponder that humans survived in Nordic areas where vegetation was extremely scarce? People have been hunting animals for survival since the beginning of time. It's a good thing you did not live in the past otherwise, you would have not survived. In fact, there are still some areas in the world today, where plants are very scarce and there are very limited means of getting "plants" to people.

In fact some people are living in such poverty that they don't have the means of obtaining any kind of fresh vegetable or fruit. Some live off of a few grains and the meat they hunt.

You make me want to bang my head against the wall.

VegesaurusRex

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

Quite correct. However, note the keywords here: Pain...Brain... Nervous System.

Okay, now reread my statement.

Perhaps you should note that pain cannot be defined without reference to the words brain and nervous system

doorki

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

Quite correct. However, note the keywords here: Pain...Brain... Nervous System.

Okay, now reread my statement.

Perhaps you should note that pain cannot be defined without reference to the words brain and nervous system

You can keep hanging on to that but I said that pain serves the purpose of alerting us to negative stimuli. While plants do not feel "pain" they do feel something akin to pain since they also have some sort of mechanism that alerts them to negative stimuli. If you can overlook the literal definition of murder you can also see past this if you actually wanted to see the point.

macpatti

Umm, meat eaters, don't you think it makes us tetchy when you guys say stuff like 'I love my meat' or 'I love dead flesh' or 'I'm going to enjoy my hamburger' etc.

Why does it make you "tetchy" if I say I love meat or I'm going to enjoy a hamburger? I also enjoy a black bean burger and salad. Why do YOU care if I eat meat?

InnerFatGirl

Umm, meat eaters, don't you think it makes us tetchy when you guys say stuff like 'I love my meat' or 'I love dead flesh' or 'I'm going to enjoy my hamburger' etc.

Why does it make you "tetchy" if I say I love meat or I'm going to enjoy a hamburger? I also enjoy a black bean burger and salad. Why do YOU care if I eat meat?

Are you joking, or did you seriously just ask me why I care if you eat meat?

ARE. YOU. BEING. SERIOUS?

VegesaurusRex

Macpatti: Let me flip the questions on their head. Try to read them anew, and see how they sound to you.
Forcing your child to EAT DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. My question is, would you let your child choose? Or force them into eating how you eat? Is it too much to make seperate meals? Or is it worth it to let your child feel in control?

I just don't see why some vegetarians get so defensive on this topic. I couldn't care less if you think I'm eating DEAD ANIMAL BODY PARTS. I like meat and so does my family. I couldn't care less if you don't like dead animal parts.

Maybe we get defensive because it involves murder?

Killing animals is not murder. Murder is defined as unlawfully killing a person.

Agreed. How does one even begin to process the notion that killing animals is murder!

For some of us, the question is how do we even begin to process the idea that killing animals is NOT murder. Killing unnecessarily is just wrong, period. If you need to survive, eat plants. If you want to protect the environment, eat plants. There is no NEED to kill animals.

This is a flawed argument. Eat plants? How you do ponder that humans survived in Nordic areas where vegetation was extremely scarce? People have been hunting animals for survival since the beginning of time. It's a good thing you did not live in the past otherwise, you would have not survived. In fact, there are still some areas in the world today, where plants are very scarce and there are very limited means of getting "plants" to people.

In fact some people are living in such poverty that they don't have the means of obtaining any kind of fresh vegetable or fruit. Some live off of a few grains and the meat they hunt.

You make me want to bang my head against the wall.

Gee, why do all the girls I meet say that!

Anyway, our anscestors have NOT always hunted, far from it. Our Austrolopithicene anscestors never hunted, although they may have scavenged. Homo erectus was probably the first hunter. Homo neanderthalensis ( or if you prefer, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) was clearly a hunter but he is extinct.. Most homo sapiens living today are vegetarians, if not by choice by necessity.

The Lapplanders and Inuits can tolereate more meat than other H. sapiens because genetically they are slightly different from the rest of us - because of prolonged diets of meat they are less prone to cancer and heart disease. Those who were prone to those diseases are dead.

VegesaurusRex

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

Quite correct. However, note the keywords here: Pain...Brain... Nervous System.

Okay, now reread my statement.

Perhaps you should note that pain cannot be defined without reference to the words brain and nervous system

You can keep hanging on to that but I said that pain serves the purpose of alerting us to negative stimuli. While plants do not feel "pain" they do feel something akin to pain since they also have some sort of mechanism that alerts them to negative stimuli. If you can overlook the literal definition of murder you can also see past this if you actually wanted to see the point.

I am not hanging on to anything - that is what pain is. And there is no biological possiblity that plants FEEL anything,

doorki

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

Quite correct. However, note the keywords here: Pain...Brain... Nervous System.

Okay, now reread my statement.

Perhaps you should note that pain cannot be defined without reference to the words brain and nervous system

You can keep hanging on to that but I said that pain serves the purpose of alerting us to negative stimuli. While plants do not feel "pain" they do feel something akin to pain since they also have some sort of mechanism that alerts them to negative stimuli. If you can overlook the literal definition of murder you can also see past this if you actually wanted to see the point.

I am not hanging on to anything - that is what pain is. And there is no biological possiblity that plants FEEL anything,

Then how do they respond to external stimuli?

_VoV

While plants do not feel "pain" due to their lack of a nervous system, they do react to negative stimuli in order to defend themselves. Since pain can be defined as our bodies way of alerting us of negative stimuli, we can say that plants do feel something akin to pain.

You are defining pain in a very non standard way.

"What is Pain?

Because perception and tolerance of pain vary widely from individual to individual, pain is difficult to define and describe. Essentially, pain is the way your brain interprets information about a particular sensation that your body is experiencing. Information (or "signals") about this painful sensation are sent via nerve pathways to your brain. The way in which your brain interprets these signals as "pain" can be affected by many outside factors, some of which can be controlled by special techniques."

http://paincenter.stanford.edu/patient_care/pain.html

Quite correct. However, note the keywords here: Pain...Brain... Nervous System.

Okay, now reread my statement.

Perhaps you should note that pain cannot be defined without reference to the words brain and nervous system

You can keep hanging on to that but I said that pain serves the purpose of alerting us to negative stimuli. While plants do not feel "pain" they do feel something akin to pain since they also have some sort of mechanism that alerts them to negative stimuli. If you can overlook the literal definition of murder you can also see past this if you actually wanted to see the point.

Robots can be programmed to avoid obstacles which could end them. Those potentially destructive obstacles could be construed as 'negative stimuli.' Observing their evasive behavior could make you think they are avoiding 'pain.' But, are they? Are plants?

macpatti

Are you joking, or did you seriously just ask me why I care if you eat meat?

Yes, innerfatgirl, I'm seriuos. We've already established that the literal definition of murder does not apply to animals, so I'm not murdering them. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm looking for a rational, intelligent reply to why it bothers some vegans/vegetarians that others eat meat.

doorki

You can keep hanging on to that but I said that pain serves the purpose of alerting us to negative stimuli. While plants do not feel "pain" they do feel something akin to pain since they also have some sort of mechanism that alerts them to negative stimuli. If you can overlook the literal definition of murder you can also see past this if you actually wanted to see the point.

Robots can be programmed to avoid obstacles which could end them. Those potentially destructive obstacles could be construed as 'negative stimuli.' Observing their evasive behavior could make you think they are avoiding 'pain.' But, are they? Are plants?

Robots do not do it to survive. They do it because we program them to. Plants do it to survive. Why is it so hard to see plants react to external stimuli in order to survive and thrive? Plants kill each other while competing for resources as well as to defend their progeny.

_VoV

Are you joking, or did you seriously just ask me why I care if you eat meat?

Yes, innerfatgirl, I'm seriuos. We've already established that the literal definition of murder does not apply to animals, so I'm not murdering them. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm looking for a rational, intelligent reply to why it bothers some vegans/vegetarians that others eat meat.

Some vegetarians/vegans have abolitionist hopes and dreams. Simply stated, they would like to see animal killing abolished.

We live in a culture of moral relativism, so many people don't understand why other people might think there's an absolute right and wrong to anything. There are some people who believe killing animals is wrong. They see a vegetarian world as a more progressive one. In my experience, vegetarians with this mindset can get annoyed when people act as though the inhumane slaughter of an animal doesn't matter to them, but the issue for them, goes way beyond whether you individually eat meat.