Forcing Your Child to be Vegan/Vegetarian.
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My kids eat what my wife and I provide for them. If they don't like it they can choose not to eat. What we eat is not really relevant.0
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In addition, I respect vegans and the dietary choices they make. I just find it interesting when the debate turns to animals having the same life value as human beings.
Again, if we were vegetarians, our children would be raised that way too.
I find it interesting when humans try to elevate themselves to the top of or beyond the Animal Kingdoms. To do so, they rationalize their so-called intrinsic rights.
Parents - vegan or carnivores or somewhere inbetween - are imperfect. The best we can do is teach kids that we don't know everything and give them the tools of curiosity, strength, and kindness to go out into the world and learn better ways to live. Children are, after all, not possessions but gifts that we send.
-Debra0 -
I find it interesting when humans try to elevate themselves to the top of or beyond the Animal Kingdoms. To do so, they rationalize their so-called intrinsic rights
I don't think I "tried" to elevate humans to the top of the Animal Kingdom. It is an objective fact that we are at the top of the animal world. Last I looked, humans are the ones conquering, understanding, studying and mastering the animal world, not the other animals. I haven't read any books lately by lower animals explaining the nature of animal life, why they are superior to humans, etc. Humans are only ones, as far as I have evidence to examine, who even ponder whether or not humans are above the other animals. The power to contemplate our place in the world, what it all means, etc., is a power not possessed by the other animals (by all evidences). Plants are lower than animals because animals not only live (like plants) but also have sensory powers and powers of self-motion (among other things). Humans are higher than plants because we live (like plants do) but have the higher powers of animals. By the same logic, humans are higher than lower animals because we possess powers of reason and freedom (giving rise to the countless things we have they don't have: sense of history, poetry, religion, science, culture, etc, etc.).
Further, are you claiming that claims to "intrinsic rights" are an illusion and not grounded in reality? If so, are you saying that all value-judgments are subjective and merely opinion? If so, how can you criticize anyone else's opinion or judgment?0 -
Some basic information showing that plants do not want to die, and will cooperate to avoid it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_defense_against_herbivory
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yXlyXsnK5_IJ:scidiv.bellevuecollege.edu/rkr/biology213/lectures/pdfs/PlantDefenses213.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShDIon-Pbz6l7Dz6pqWtuAnSvNxP22O1qlE2LkM3pCJQCIaPupksZHbyxLmtEOkHOOreg3ZcefUquV3LBnYTOFojruYo0fXUbHbKT6meEnkJfMBGa-3BkGRi5Fd38wrsuANeBMm&sig=AHIEtbQw8WNVeet8r2belt5wP_y-6veP_A&pli=1
Of course, it is not pleasant to admit that maybe killing plants is NOT more moral than killing animals because it means that we live in a universe that is predicated on death and suffering (plants and animals must die to feed us, plants must die to feed animals, animals must die to feed plants, etc.). But admitting that is better than giving up steak.
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Another article making my point that plants are people, too, who engage in typical people activities like napalming, moving, hunting, and killing freeloaders of species that they live with symbiotically. This one admittedly from a comedy website:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19456_8-things-you-wont-believe-plants-do-when-no-ones-looking.html0 -
Some basic information showing that plants do not want to die, and will cooperate to avoid it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_defense_against_herbivory
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yXlyXsnK5_IJ:scidiv.bellevuecollege.edu/rkr/biology213/lectures/pdfs/PlantDefenses213.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShDIon-Pbz6l7Dz6pqWtuAnSvNxP22O1qlE2LkM3pCJQCIaPupksZHbyxLmtEOkHOOreg3ZcefUquV3LBnYTOFojruYo0fXUbHbKT6meEnkJfMBGa-3BkGRi5Fd38wrsuANeBMm&sig=AHIEtbQw8WNVeet8r2belt5wP_y-6veP_A&pli=1
Of course, it is not pleasant to admit that maybe killing plants is NOT more moral than killing animals because it means that we live in a universe that is predicated on death and suffering (plants and animals must die to feed us, plants must die to feed animals, animals must die to feed plants, etc.). But admitting that is better than giving up steak.
Plants dont have cute little faces,thats why its ok to eat them.0 -
Some basic information showing that plants do not want to die, and will cooperate to avoid it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_defense_against_herbivory
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yXlyXsnK5_IJ:scidiv.bellevuecollege.edu/rkr/biology213/lectures/pdfs/PlantDefenses213.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShDIon-Pbz6l7Dz6pqWtuAnSvNxP22O1qlE2LkM3pCJQCIaPupksZHbyxLmtEOkHOOreg3ZcefUquV3LBnYTOFojruYo0fXUbHbKT6meEnkJfMBGa-3BkGRi5Fd38wrsuANeBMm&sig=AHIEtbQw8WNVeet8r2belt5wP_y-6veP_A&pli=1
Of course, it is not pleasant to admit that maybe killing plants is NOT more moral than killing animals because it means that we live in a universe that is predicated on death and suffering (plants and animals must die to feed us, plants must die to feed animals, animals must die to feed plants, etc.). But admitting that is better than giving up steak.
I am sorry, but the fact that plants have genetic defenses against environmental stress and pathogens does not mean that they "want" to survive, in the sense that they are "thinking." This is akin to white blood cells in humans. The white blood cells do not have mentation ability any more than plants do, and do not feel pain, any more than plants do. It is basic biology that only the higher animals, i.e., those with nervous systems and brains can think, fear or feel pain.
Your analogy between plants and animals does not hold.0 -
I feed my daughter all kinds of food, including meat. If later in life she decides she wants to go vegan or whatever new name people come up with, then she can feel free to do so.
I know a couple of people who ate meat/variety of foods then switched to becoming vegans only to switch back later to trying to incorporate meats/all foods into their diets only to find that they could no longer eat meat or other foods because it made them sick.
I think that if this can be the case, I don't want to risk the health of my daughter because of my habits. I will let her choose down the line, when she is not 2 whether or not she wants to eat meat.0 -
All this discussion about plants having 'feelings' too is moot. If you care so much about plants, then why don't you care about animals?0
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Did you know that it was only in the past few years that scientists could prove that animals feel pain, and that it's not just a genetic defense against harm? So I'm not entirely sure why you think that not having a nervous system in the same sense animals do means that plants can't feel. Furthermore, there are a number of animal species that do effectively function as a single organism, including getting smarter in proportion to the number of individuals in the hive, in which case, the individual animal is analogous to your white blood cell example.Some basic information showing that plants do not want to die, and will cooperate to avoid it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_defense_against_herbivory
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yXlyXsnK5_IJ:scidiv.bellevuecollege.edu/rkr/biology213/lectures/pdfs/PlantDefenses213.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShDIon-Pbz6l7Dz6pqWtuAnSvNxP22O1qlE2LkM3pCJQCIaPupksZHbyxLmtEOkHOOreg3ZcefUquV3LBnYTOFojruYo0fXUbHbKT6meEnkJfMBGa-3BkGRi5Fd38wrsuANeBMm&sig=AHIEtbQw8WNVeet8r2belt5wP_y-6veP_A&pli=1
Of course, it is not pleasant to admit that maybe killing plants is NOT more moral than killing animals because it means that we live in a universe that is predicated on death and suffering (plants and animals must die to feed us, plants must die to feed animals, animals must die to feed plants, etc.). But admitting that is better than giving up steak.
I am sorry, but the fact that plants have genetic defenses against environmental stress and pathogens does not mean that they "want" to survive, in the sense that they are "thinking." This is akin to white blood cells in humans. The white blood cells do not have mentation ability any more than plants do, and do not feel pain, any more than plants do. It is basic biology that only the higher animals, i.e., those with nervous systems and brains can think, fear or feel pain.
Your analogy between plants and animals does not hold.0 -
I feed my daughter all kinds of food, including meat. If later in life she decides she wants to go vegan or whatever new name people come up with, then she can feel free to do so.
I know a couple of people who ate meat/variety of foods then switched to becoming vegans only to switch back later to trying to incorporate meats/all foods into their diets only to find that they could no longer eat meat or other foods because it made them sick.
I think that if this can be the case, I don't want to risk the health of my daughter because of my habits. I will let her choose down the line, when she is not 2 whether or not she wants to eat meat.
I am trying to understand your reasoning. Are you saying you want to expose your daughter to the broadest range of foods possible? I ask, because when it comes right down to it, we only eat a few animal species. Looking globally and historically, people ate more insects than mammals. Even, the Army survival manual encourages a...erm...broader diet when clinging to life in the wilderness. So, why only expose your daughter to the flesh of chickens, cows, pigs and sheep?0 -
Who said I don't care about animals? Or that I do care about plants? I'm just saying that I disagree with the ethical argument for vegetarianism on the basis that, no matter what I eat, something will suffer and die.All this discussion about plants having 'feelings' too is moot. If you care so much about plants, then why don't you care about animals?
I am not advocating that humans become carnivorous because plants are people, too. :flowerforyou:
Actually, not :flowerforyou: because :flowerforyou: is a filthy plant-murderer.0 -
Who said I don't care about animals? Or that I do care about plants? I'm just saying that I disagree with the ethical argument for vegetarianism on the basis that, no matter what I eat, something will suffer and die.All this discussion about plants having 'feelings' too is moot. If you care so much about plants, then why don't you care about animals?
I am not advocating that humans become carnivorous because plants are people, too. :flowerforyou:
Actually, not :flowerforyou: because :flowerforyou: is a filthy plant-murderer.
I am not seriously implying that you are a cruel plant-murderer. LOLZ.
I am talking about your argument. Are you saying that both plants and animals feel pain, so it really doesn't matter what we eat because the result is the same? Do you believe that, or is this for rhetorical effect? I find it hard that anyone would truly equate the two in terms of net suffering.
All the people here who have argued that we should have deep compassion for plants, seem so sensitive to the tender 'souls'. So why do they mow their lawns? That's merely cosmetic, and yet they subject millions of grass plants to amputation several times each summer.0 -
Who said I don't care about animals? Or that I do care about plants? I'm just saying that I disagree with the ethical argument for vegetarianism on the basis that, no matter what I eat, something will suffer and die.All this discussion about plants having 'feelings' too is moot. If you care so much about plants, then why don't you care about animals?
I am not advocating that humans become carnivorous because plants are people, too. :flowerforyou:
Actually, not :flowerforyou: because :flowerforyou: is a filthy plant-murderer.
A person after my own heart
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I would really like to get back to the question at hand: 'Forcing your child to be vegan/vegetarian.'
At the heart of this question, there seems to be a basic tenet and that is: Children have the right to live mainstream lives, even within families with minority opinions. I would even go so far to say that the question implies that people are born with a right to eat meat, and that vegetarian parents are ignoring this basic right to choose.
I would really like to explore that idea.0 -
I feed my daughter all kinds of food, including meat. If later in life she decides she wants to go vegan or whatever new name people come up with, then she can feel free to do so.
I know a couple of people who ate meat/variety of foods then switched to becoming vegans only to switch back later to trying to incorporate meats/all foods into their diets only to find that they could no longer eat meat or other foods because it made them sick.
I think that if this can be the case, I don't want to risk the health of my daughter because of my habits. I will let her choose down the line, when she is not 2 whether or not she wants to eat meat.
I am trying to understand your reasoning. Are you saying you want to expose your daughter to the broadest range of foods possible? I ask, because when it comes right down to it, we only eat a few animal species. Looking globally and historically, people ate more insects than mammals. Even, the Army survival manual encourages a...erm...broader diet when clinging to life in the wilderness. So, why only expose your daughter to the flesh of chickens, cows, pigs and sheep?
No, I am not "exposing" my daughter to anything out of the ordinary. She just eats a balanced diet like I do which consists of grains, meat, fish, vegetables, breads, diary, you know the way it has been for centuries. If when she is 18, 40, 60, 80 she decides she wants to cut out whatever from her diet, go for it but I am not going to restrict her at the age of 2 to eating nuts and berries or fake imitations of bacon or any kind of food that is modeled to imitate meat. You know for being vegans and vegetarians, you sure do obsess a lot over meat.0 -
You know for being vegans and vegetarians, you sure do obsess a lot over meat.
What do you mean by this? Why wouldn't this question be of interest to vegetarians?0 -
Of course, it is not pleasant to admit that maybe killing plants is NOT more moral than killing animals because it means that we live in a universe that is predicated on death and suffering (plants and animals must die to feed us, plants must die to feed animals, animals must die to feed plants, etc.). But admitting that is better than giving up steak.
Indeed, plants have an internal dynamism to live, just like all living things. Consequently, they adapt to their environment and “find” ways to survive. I do not see evidence, however, that they possess consciousness and therefore their not “wanting” die is not the same as humans “not wanting” to die. In other words, I think some amount of anthropomorphism is taking place when you compare the plant unconscious striving for life with human longing for life (In other words, you are transferring human experience to plants because of some measure of similarity in their material processes). Additionally, I don’t see evidence that either plants or lower animals see death the same way we do. Humans see death, among other things, as contrary to their longing to live forever. I don’t see that plants or other animals have the slightest notion of such things. As a result, I don’t feel any moral guilt when I kill an ant, mosquito or the weeds in my yard.0 -
I will raise my child as a vegan or, at the very least, vegetarian. I will not force them, but I will teach them and show them.
Habits are easily formed in early life.
To the people who posted R.E growth and development. Do some research.0 -
1. Many vegetarians do not eat a healthy diet, relying on high-fat and high-carbohydrate items for calories.
2. It is very difficult to get balanced nutrition on a vegan diet, and many vegans take multivitamins in order to get nutrients that most people get without problem from meat.
3. Plants don't want to die any more than animals do, and have a surprising variety of defense mechanisms to avoid being eaten/alert other plants to danger.
4. Research shows that certain people are physically unable to keep to a vegetarian diet, and physicians often advocate vegetarian patients who feel unwell to add fish once a week to their diet.
1. Why does high-fat and high-carb automatically equal unhealthy? Avocados and peanut butters are high in fat, rice and pasta are all high carb, but each of these can have a place in a healthy diet.
2. Balanced nutrition isn't an issue strictly limited to vegan diets - there are plenty of omnivores out there who struggle to meet their dietary needs. With just a little planning, vegan nutrition is easy - we just get it from different sources. The only issue would be B12, which can be eaten through plant-based sources (after all, that's how cows and other animals get it), but in a lot of cases, it's simply easier to take a supplement.
3. Generally, at least from my own experience, vegetarians and vegans take issue with perpetuating the pain, suffering and slaughter of other sentient beings. Cows, pigs, chickens and other animals all have brains, nervous systems and are capable of suffering - at least for me, it's that issue that causes me to lead an animal-free lifestyle. If research comes that plants really are capable of feeling pain, suffering and loss like animals are, maybe I will reconsider my choices, but for now, I, and other vegans, are doing their best to reduce the amount of suffering in the world - we do, however, recognize that this does not mean we can necessarily eliminate suffering.
4. This isn't really a valid argument - you could state this for anything that requires above-average effort, say, running a marathon or getting into an Ivy-League university. Sure there are people who aren't "cut out for it" - but really that just means they don't want to put in the extra effort. The same can be said for people who turn to fast food and processed meals instead of cooking for themselves - it's not really a valid argument against a meatless lifestyle.
You rock.0
