Are you SURE you don't want healthcare for the poor?
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The poor can get emergency services.
Sure, if you consider having a runny nose to be an emergency service. "The poor" go to the ER for everything, and that is not going to change with Obamatax. You know why? Because it's too much trouble to call a doctor for an appointment, wait for the appointment, remember the appointment, and actually show up for the appointment. They won't go to the doctor for preventive care. They'll wait until they get sick and keep clogging up the ER because the ER cannot, by law, turn them away, and they know it.And what about the lower middle class who doesn't receive health insurance working two 30 hour/week jobs, making barely over $10/hour, while paying for food and daycare and housing? What about them? They make too much for Medicare/Medicaid, don't have it through their employers, and can't afford it on their own.
If you can't pay for insurance, you shouldn't get to have insurance. Life sucks. But you don't have a "right" to anything that has to be paid for by someone else. And I'd like to know how many of these people who allegedly can't afford health insurance are miraculously able to afford cigarettes and beer and $50,000 cars and flat screen TVs and cell phones and $200 jeans and the latest video game systems. If health insurance were that important, surely it'd be higher on the list. When you're paying your own bills and aren't relying on the fruits of other people's labor, you don't have to answer for what you do with your money, but when you're stealing from my paycheck, you most certainly do.
I am so unbelievably sick of the half of this country that pays zero taxes whining about how the half that does pay taxes is somehow not paying enough. We'd get a lot of this ridiculousness cleaned up in a hurry if everyone had some skin in the game.
Thank you so much for this post. I agree 110%.
I actually was listening to 'Fortunate Son' by CCR on my way home from lunch and had to turn the channel because of the lines about people with "a silver spoon only helping themselves" and not being foturnate because you aren't a millionaires son.
I'm considered poor and I'm sick of the rich being given such a bad rap. My boyfriend and I look up to successful, wealthy people. We want to have nice cars, vacation in nice places and have nice things but the only way we will ever get there is by working very, hard and having lots of ambition. Brian and I are striving for a successful life together and to live the American dream.. I wonder why we want those things. If we work our *kitten* of to obtain those goals, poor people are going to judge us and complain about how we have so much and they have so little. I'm scared for us to work our way up to success and wealth because it seems to be a trap.0 -
I would hate to live in the State that you do, if this is true.
That would be true in every state, except for MA. Just look up the term "working poor".
I know what working poor is... don't be condescending.... I've lived it.... In the cities that I have lived in there have been places where the working poor can get adequate care without insurance... Hell, I work right across the street from one such clinic (which btw also includes dentistry and pediatrics). So while it may be true in your city or your state it's not true everywhere... I know the clinic I go to, they constantly work with the uninsured... again, they would rather see the uninsured because they don't have to deal with insurance companies. You could walk into just about any clinic here and be taken care of regardless of whether you have insurance... insurance is not nor should it ever be a requirement to recieve care... and people need to realize that ER's are the most expensive place to get care... particularly for the uninsured... I also live in a State where clinics are allowed in pharmacies (which are the cheapest place to get health care).... And people don't realize this but most of the time, clinics will take whatever you can give them towards paying a bill off (though working with their billing office is a better bet)... I don't know how many times I have had a rather large medical bill from a clinic and said "I can only pay $50 this week. I will pay some more when I get paid" and they were fine with that.
I have to agree with the above. In both Ohio and Texas, I have been to community health clinics that base your fee on your income. The most I ever paid was $4. Makes me wonder how many people are just completely unaware of what services their local health departments offer; and just how many can't be bothered to find out because the ER will never turn them away.0 -
If you'll read the article this thread was based on, you might come to understand that lack of healthcare for the poorest in this nation actually can endanger not just your upward mobility, but your life.0
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If you'll read the article this thread was based on, you might come to understand that lack of healthcare for the poorest in this nation actually can endanger not just your upward mobility, but your life.
I don't think anyone disagrees with this (at least I don't and I don't think I have ever met anyone that does)... I think the disagreement comes when trying to figure out how to get the healthcare to the people that need it the most.0 -
That is false. We offer health care for the uninsured in this country. We have free clinics that will provide preventative care, as well. It may be inconvenient to have to wait for hours, it may not be the prettiest facility, and it may require driving out of your immediate area, but it's there.Because most can't receive adequate and ongoing care, much less preventative care for most issues, without insurance.0 -
If you'll read the article this thread was based on, you might come to understand that lack of healthcare for the poorest in this nation actually can endanger not just your upward mobility, but your life.
I don't think anyone disagrees with this (at least I don't and I don't think I have ever met anyone that does)... I think the disagreement comes when trying to figure out how to get the healthcare to the people that need it the most.
Given a choice between paying more taxes and letting the poor die in the streets, many would choose to let them die. And I don't see how healthcare can be provided to those who cannot afford it unless it is through taxation.0 -
I would hate to live in the State that you do, if this is true.
That would be true in every state, except for MA. Just look up the term "working poor".
I know what working poor is... don't be condescending.... I've lived it.... In the cities that I have lived in there have been places where the working poor can get adequate care without insurance... Hell, I work right across the street from one such clinic (which btw also includes dentistry and pediatrics). So while it may be true in your city or your state it's not true everywhere... I know the clinic I go to, they constantly work with the uninsured... again, they would rather see the uninsured because they don't have to deal with insurance companies. You could walk into just about any clinic here and be taken care of regardless of whether you have insurance... insurance is not nor should it ever be a requirement to recieve care... and people need to realize that ER's are the most expensive place to get care... particularly for the uninsured... I also live in a State where clinics are allowed in pharmacies (which are the cheapest place to get health care).... And people don't realize this but most of the time, clinics will take whatever you can give them towards paying a bill off (though working with their billing office is a better bet)... I don't know how many times I have had a rather large medical bill from a clinic and said "I can only pay $50 this week. I will pay some more when I get paid" and they were fine with that.
I have to agree with the above. In both Ohio and Texas, I have been to community health clinics that base your fee on your income. The most I ever paid was $4. Makes me wonder how many people are just completely unaware of what services their local health departments offer; and just how many can't be bothered to find out because the ER will never turn them away.
Or because they don't want to pay even $4. That's a pack of cigarettes.. or for $10 they can get a dimebag of weed. Hospital is always free. Plus you can go to the ER and say you hurt somehwere and get good drugs. Or if you have a cold, they will treat you at the ER rather than paying $8 for a bottle of Robitussin.0 -
The way I see it, we have 3 choices:
Make the minimum wage a true living wage
Continue to pay higher taxes for the working poor to go to free clinics and the ER for care
Cut off care and pay for more riot police and prisons as the working poor revolt
And even if you pick 'make the minimum wage a living wage' you still have to worry about people who are unemployed and need healthcare.0 -
Except the minimum wage will alway be the minimum wage... if you increase the minimum wage to be the living wage, you would have to increase what those making the "living wage" would get... then prices will inflate because there is a much larger influx of money floating around... and we are right back were we started.0
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Except the minimum wage will alway be the minimum wage... if you increase the minimum wage to be the living wage, you would have to increase what those making the "living wage" would get... then prices will inflate because there is a much larger influx of money floating around... and we are right back were we started.
Inflation, destroying the value of the dollar, killing of business, higher unemployment. So many things wrong with raising min. wage...0 -
Except the minimum wage will alway be the minimum wage... if you increase the minimum wage to be the living wage, you would have to increase what those making the "living wage" would get... then prices will inflate because there is a much larger influx of money floating around... and we are right back were we started.
If that's the case then why have real wages decreased for several decades? There are other market forces at work that have nothing to do with the cost to create a product or service. Companies will make as large a profit as they can off their goods. Hence, a shirt made in Honduras will cost as much or more than a shirt made in a country with higher wages, because the company isn't selling it for what it cost plus a set markup, the company sells for what it thinks it will get for it.0 -
Except the minimum wage will alway be the minimum wage... if you increase the minimum wage to be the living wage, you would have to increase what those making the "living wage" would get... then prices will inflate because there is a much larger influx of money floating around... and we are right back were we started.
If that's the case then why have real wages decreased for several decades? There are other market forces at work that have nothing to do with the cost to create a product or service. Companies will make as large a profit as they can off their goods. Hence, a shirt made in Honduras will cost as much or more than a shirt made in a country with higher wages, because the company isn't selling it for what it cost plus a set markup, the company sells for what it thinks it will get for it.
Oh I can go off on such a tangent (and I almost did until I deleted it...) but that would take me so far off the topic of health care....
Prices raise for a mirade of reasons... Whether it be the "oil crisis" or drought... for example, the reason the cost of peanut butter rose so much last year was because peanut farmers planted cotton and corn instead because the price to sell those two crops was better... which is totally within their rights as a business. So you are right, that it is more complicated than that...0 -
Really? You are far more cynical than I.Given a choice between paying more taxes and letting the poor die in the streets, many would choose to let them die.0 -
Just a little FYI... Here is the hierarchy of cost when it comes to health care providers (though I may have the middle two switched as I'm going off of memory and I can only find the cost comparison between ER's and Urgent Care Clinics)...
ER>Standard Clinic>Urgent Care Clinic>Walk in Clinic (such as CVS minute clinic. Which only applies to some states as not all states allow these, sadily)...
The thing with health care in this country is that people either don't know how to or are too lazy to learn where to go to get adequate care for a decent price. People just know to go to the ER for everything because the ER cannot refuse anyone for any reason. But the ER costs insurance more and it costs the patient more... Whereas Urgent Care clinics (while they may not be open 24/7 like an ER is... but if you go with to the ER with a cold, you might just be waiting until a Clinic opens up the next day anyway) are much faster and much cheaper... by on the upwards of 75%
Here is just one article about the cost difference between the two.
http://www.wisebread.com/cost-comparison-emergency-rooms-vs-urgent-care
And I know quite a few people that go to urgent care clinics for their preventative screenings and checkups instead of the typical family doctor.0 -
You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.
People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.
To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:
1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.0 -
Really? You are far more cynical than I.Given a choice between paying more taxes and letting the poor die in the streets, many would choose to let them die.
It's true I'm very cynical. When I see people arguing against a proposed solution without offering a counter solution, I assume they want the poor to just go away and die quietly. As I said, I do not like Obama's plan as written. I have stated what I think our options are and in another thread I outlined what I would prefer to see in a healthcare bill.
I assume that people who say that they don't want to pay taxes so someone else can see a doctor and who do not suggest another solution simply want the poor to die.
Blujay is an exception, since she tries to analyze the possibilities even if she hasn't offered a specific cut and dried solution (which admittedly, may not be the right solution, since the issue isn't necessarily cut and dried).0 -
Really? You are far more cynical than I.Given a choice between paying more taxes and letting the poor die in the streets, many would choose to let them die.
It's true I'm very cynical. When I see people arguing against a proposed solution without offering a counter solution, I assume they want the poor to just go away and die quietly. As I said, I do not like Obama's plan as written. I have stated what I think our options are and in another thread I outlined what I would prefer to see in a healthcare bill.
I assume that people who say that they don't want to pay taxes so someone else can see a doctor and who do not suggest another solution simply want the poor to die.
Blujay is an exception, since she tries to analyze the possibilities even if she hasn't offered a specific cut and dried solution (which admittedly, may not be the right solution, since the issue isn't necessarily cut and dried).
I don't offer one, because I don't know what that would be.... I know I don't think providing insurance to everyone (however that may happen) is completely the answer... but I also know that the way we are going we aren't going to survive either... I just wish people would try to educate themselves before trudging off the ER for every cough... I like the idea of doctors setting a flat fee for services... I like the idea of clinics posting what standard procedures cost where people can access them easily...
such as this: http://www.minuteclinic.com/services/wellnessandprevention/
I just know there are cheaper alternatives to health care... and I wish there was a way to get this information out there... I wish ALL states would let physicians do what they needed to do to make health care cheaper for the uninsured without telling them they must call it insurance (even if it's not)...
Yes, I am fortunate to have insurance... but I don't believe that people should have to have insurance to get a standard level of care. I don't believe that it should be a case of either you get insurance or you don't get care.... I hate that idea and I think it smacks in the face of freedom and liberty.0 -
Bad assumption. I, like k8blujay2, don't offer a better solution because I don't have one. That does not mean I must support this one or just want to see the poor "die in the streets".I assume that people who say that they don't want to pay taxes so someone else can see a doctor and who do not suggest another solution simply want the poor to die.0 -
By the way, y'all can call me Katie... :flowerforyou:0
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My daughter's name is Katie (although, she decided last year in 2nd grade to spell it with a y because it's "cuter")! Her name is Kathleen.By the way, y'all can call me Katie... :flowerforyou:0
