Are you SURE you don't want healthcare for the poor?
Replies
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You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.
People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.
To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:
1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.
Wow, glad to see that Glenn Beck is getting healthy.0 -
This is just such a complicated topic... and it is so easy to say "well let's just do it like Europe"... but the thing is... every European country does it's own thing pretty much at least in the details anyway... and we are roughly the entire size of Europe... population wise. We are also a much more diverse society than Europe... ethnically, culturally and politically.0
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My daughter's name is Katie (although, she decided last year in 2nd grade to spell it with a y because it's "cuter")! Her name is Kathleen.By the way, y'all can call me Katie... :flowerforyou:
Hahaha... I always say ending it with the 'y' is the wrong way... :laugh:0 -
You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.
People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.
To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:
1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.
^^^This. Very well said.0 -
You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.
People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.
To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:
1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.
It may not be rocket science, but it is not as easy as that paraphrase makes it out to be.
1. Graduate from high school.
I graduated from high school AND college.
2. Get married before you have kids.
I am not married, nor do I have any kids.
3. Stay married.
I never married, so this does not apply. If I was married, perhaps the second income would help, but then there would be two of us to support instead of just myself.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
I do work. I have since I was 18. I even worked full time while going to college.
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
I have never engaged in any criminal behavior.
I would like to add, other than a small student loan that was needed to finish out college, I'm actually pretty tight with my money. Almost everything I buy is second hand.
I am still POOR. I do not CHOOSE to be poor. In fact, I try very hard not to be.0 -
Except the minimum wage will alway be the minimum wage... if you increase the minimum wage to be the living wage, you would have to increase what those making the "living wage" would get... then prices will inflate because there is a much larger influx of money floating around... and we are right back were we started.
Inflation, destroying the value of the dollar, killing of business, higher unemployment. So many things wrong with raising min. wage...
Other than the fact that those "arguments" have been raised EVERY time the minimum wage was raised (even when it was first instituted), and that the "OMG the sky is falling" predictions have NEVER happened, you are 100% correct.0 -
I actually was listening to 'Fortunate Son' by CCR on my way home from lunch and had to turn the channel because of the lines about people with "a silver spoon only helping themselves" and not being foturnate because you aren't a millionaires son.
I'm considered poor and I'm sick of the rich being given such a bad rap. My boyfriend and I look up to successful, wealthy people. We want to have nice cars, vacation in nice places and have nice things but the only way we will ever get there is by working very, hard and having lots of ambition. Brian and I are striving for a successful life together and to live the American dream.. I wonder why we want those things. If we work our *kitten* of to obtain those goals, poor people are going to judge us and complain about how we have so much and they have so little. I'm scared for us to work our way up to success and wealth because it seems to be a trap.
I may be expressing my own viewpoint, rather than a larger opinion, but I don't think the "complaining about the rich" is focused on the scenario you describe.
There are plenty of rich people in this country. Except for a tiny minority of true socialists or others besotted with class envy, I don't think there is a lot of resentment against rich people per se.
The complaints against the "1%", stem from several factors (and we are talking about the true robber barons here, not some couple working hard to be successful):
Primarily, the complaints are against a system that, on purpose or by accident, has given special consideration to the rich and has resulted in an increased disparity of income that is undermining the economic and political stability of the country. It is also a system that is making it increasingly difficult for average people to achieve the American dream. Social and financial mobility are at all-time lows in this country.
A lot of people are getting rich, not because of their honest efforts, but because they have rigged the game in their favor. Things like reductions in capital gains taxes, special tax loopholes and deductions, etc, did not happen by accident--those who had the financial means were able to influence lawmakers to grant them special favors.
A huge portion of income these days is not being earned through productive work--manufacturing products, providing services, inventing things, producing value, etc--but by "rent seeking"--those who work at grabbing a larger share of the pie without enlarging the pie. Money is earned by manipulation and parlor tricks--leaving everyone else to pay the bill in higher prices--while a tiny few walk off with a huge bundle.
Many of these same people -- who have not "earned" their money, or who have inherited it -- now see themselves as some type of elite --"job creators", "drivers of the financial engines" -- who have no accountability, nor any obligation to society as a whole. They rail against "government", even as that same government and the achievements of society as a whole have allowed them to have their successes.
I think the resentment is leveled esp to those on Wall St whose irresponsibility was a primary cause of our current economic problems and yet not only were they not really punished, they are complaining that everyone is mean to them.
I think everyone who has worked hard to achieve success should enjoy it and take pride in their achievements. But I also think they should retain a certain amount of empathy and humility--the idea that no one makes it entirely on their own, and we all have an obligation to give something back.0 -
You forgot a few.You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.
People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.
To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:
1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.
1. Never get seriously ill.
2. Never get laid off.
3. Never have a seriously ill child.
4. Never take care of an elderly parent or grandparent.
5. Never get into a car accident.
You are an idiot if you honestly think that those 1st 5 things are how to get wealthy in America. I've been married for 19 years. We have 2 kids ages 15 and 12. I was 27 and a homeowner before we got pregnant with our first. The only debt we've ever had were a small student loan from my husband, mortgages, and 2 car payments (on a total of 6 cars over those 19 years, only 2 since 2000). I pay everything on credit and pay in full every month. I make money using credit cards because of the reward programs. We worked hard and were financially stable enough for me to be able to be a SAHM when we had kids. We are financially well off. We're not 1%ers but we're probably in the 5%er group. We've also been on WIC when my husband was activated with the National Guard reserves and sent to Iraq in 2003. He was laid off from a 6 figure job when they found out that he would likely be activated. (Yea, I know it's illegal. JAG asked if they put it in writing. *rolleyes* ) When he was activated our household income dropped 75% and stayed there. So, yea, I was that woman in the nice car with nice clothes and nice jewelry buying cheese and milk with WIC coupons. You're welcome. We rebounded again when he came home but it took a while since no one would hire him because they all thought he'd get activated again. (yes, most actually said that. No, they didn't put it into writing.) My husband now has a good job income wise. However, he's on his way to Afghanistan right now where he'll be until Christmas. We do what we have to do and are lucky enough to be healthy and physically able to do these things.
Not everyone is so lucky. I'm not stupid enough to believe that everyone really has the same opportunities. A soldier who comes home missing a leg isn't going to be able to do his job. Someone who has cancer and isn't able to work isn't going to be able to make it at all no matter when they get married or how law abiding they are. My son had a wonderful teacher this past year. She had stage 4 breast cancer. He husband works but can only work part time because he had to care for her. The school was wonderful enough to keep her on staff even after she could no longer work just so she could have health insurance. She didn't come in often but when she did she'd sit in the teacher's lounge and grade papers. The school could have let her go and cut her off insurance. They didn't and for that I am very, VERY proud to live in such a compassionate area where there aren't a lot of people who think she's a lazy slacker who doesn't deserve anything. The last day of school was June 17th. She passed away on June 22nd. You can count her as one of those leeches who pay no taxes either because once they itemize their medical expenses they won't owe a dime. I'd scold her for you but, well, yea.0 -
The poor can get emergency services.
Sure, if you consider having a runny nose to be an emergency service. "The poor" go to the ER for everything, and that is not going to change with Obamatax. You know why? Because it's too much trouble to call a doctor for an appointment, wait for the appointment, remember the appointment, and actually show up for the appointment. They won't go to the doctor for preventive care. They'll wait until they get sick and keep clogging up the ER because the ER cannot, by law, turn them away, and they know it.And what about the lower middle class who doesn't receive health insurance working two 30 hour/week jobs, making barely over $10/hour, while paying for food and daycare and housing? What about them? They make too much for Medicare/Medicaid, don't have it through their employers, and can't afford it on their own.
If you can't pay for insurance, you shouldn't get to have insurance. Life sucks. But you don't have a "right" to anything that has to be paid for by someone else. And I'd like to know how many of these people who allegedly can't afford health insurance are miraculously able to afford cigarettes and beer and $50,000 cars and flat screen TVs and cell phones and $200 jeans and the latest video game systems. If health insurance were that important, surely it'd be higher on the list. When you're paying your own bills and aren't relying on the fruits of other people's labor, you don't have to answer for what you do with your money, but when you're stealing from my paycheck, you most certainly do.
I am so unbelievably sick of the half of this country that pays zero taxes whining about how the half that does pay taxes is somehow not paying enough. We'd get a lot of this ridiculousness cleaned up in a hurry if everyone had some skin in the game.
I am unbelievably sick of the paranoid delusion that all our problems are caused by some nameless, faceless (urban) horde that is somehow managing to live it up at everyone else's expense.
Do you even have a clue why so many people do not pay federal income tax? And what a lie it is to pretend that those who don't somehow are not paying their "fair share"?
Here is an abstract from the most recent study published by the Tax Policy Center:About 46 percent of American households will pay no federal individual income tax in 2011,
roughly half of them because of structural features of the income tax that provide basic
exemptions for subsistence level income and for dependents. The other half are nontaxable
because tax expenditures— special provisions of the tax code that benefit selected taxpayers or
activities—wipe out tax liabilities and, in the case of refundable credits, result in net payments
from the government. Most important of those tax expenditures are provisions that benefit senior
citizens and low-income working families with children. While those factors particularly affect
lower-income households, different provisions eliminate taxes for other households. Itemized
deductions and credits for children and education are more important for middle-income
households, while the relatively few high-income nontaxable households benefit most from
above-the-line and itemized deductions and reduced tax rates on capital gains and dividends.
You can read the entire report here:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001547-Why-No-Income-Tax.pdf
Or you can read a summary here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2011/07/27/why-do-some-people-pay-no-federal-income-tax/
Yes, THAT Forbes Magazine (Et tu, Malcolm?)
Half the people who pay no federal income tax do so because of low incomes--basically, the laws exempt people with "subsistence" level incomes from paying federal tax. What percentage of "subsistence" do you think people should be paying in federal taxes? A bowl of gruel? A sack of toenail clippings?
Of the remainder, 75% of those are exempt because of tax provisions that benefit seniors and working families with children. Tell Granny to skip the next prescription refill. Donnie Trump needs a tax break......
It should also be noted that almost all of the tax laws that included the provisions that keep people from paying federal tax were passed under Republican administrations--Ford, Reagan, and GWBush. (I believe there was also an expansion of the EITC under Clinton, but it was started under Ford and expanded also by Reagan). They were passed because, in an earlier time of sanity, even Republicans had a small sense of social conscience, and there was a consensus that these were helpful anti-poverty measures. They were also passed during times when Democrats and Republicans were still able to find some common ground.
It also needs to be emphasized that the increase in numbers of people who pay no federal tax is NOT due to increased giveaways--or even increased taxes on everyone else (the CBO reported today that Americans are paying a lower percentage of their incomes in Federal taxes than in the past 30 years). It's a reflection of the fact that in the past 30 years, the bottom 60% of the people in this country have seen virtually no increase in their incomes. The thresholds haven't changed all that much--it's just that more and more people are sinking below them. And those people still pay plenty of taxes--they pay a disproportionate share of their incomes in sales taxes, payroll taxes, medicare taxes, local taxes -- and many pay property taxes as well. They have plenty of "skin in the game"--in fact, that's sometimes all they have left to give.
We'd get a lot of ridiculousness cleaned up in a hurry if people stopped holding on to their "welfare queen" fantasies and took a realistic view of what is happening in this country.0 -
You forgot a few.You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.
People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.
To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:
1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.
1. Never get seriously ill.
2. Never get laid off.
3. Never have a seriously ill child.
4. Never take care of an elderly parent or grandparent.
5. Never get into a car accident.
You are an idiot if you honestly think that those 1st 5 things are how to get wealthy in America. I've been married for 19 years. We have 2 kids ages 15 and 12. I was 27 and a homeowner before we got pregnant with our first. The only debt we've ever had were a small student loan from my husband, mortgages, and 2 car payments (on a total of 6 cars over those 19 years, only 2 since 2000). I pay everything on credit and pay in full every month. I make money using credit cards because of the reward programs. We worked hard and were financially stable enough for me to be able to be a SAHM when we had kids. We are financially well off. We're not 1%ers but we're probably in the 5%er group. We've also been on WIC when my husband was activated with the National Guard reserves and sent to Iraq in 2003. He was laid off from a 6 figure job when they found out that he would likely be activated. (Yea, I know it's illegal. JAG asked if they put it in writing. *rolleyes* ) When he was activated our household income dropped 75% and stayed there. So, yea, I was that woman in the nice car with nice clothes and nice jewelry buying cheese and milk with WIC coupons. You're welcome. We rebounded again when he came home but it took a while since no one would hire him because they all thought he'd get activated again. (yes, most actually said that. No, they didn't put it into writing.) My husband now has a good job income wise. However, he's on his way to Afghanistan right now where he'll be until Christmas. We do what we have to do and are lucky enough to be healthy and physically able to do these things.
Not everyone is so lucky. I'm not stupid enough to believe that everyone really has the same opportunities. A soldier who comes home missing a leg isn't going to be able to do his job. Someone who has cancer and isn't able to work isn't going to be able to make it at all no matter when they get married or how law abiding they are. My son had a wonderful teacher this past year. She had stage 4 breast cancer. He husband works but can only work part time because he had to care for her. The school was wonderful enough to keep her on staff even after she could no longer work just so she could have health insurance. She didn't come in often but when she did she'd sit in the teacher's lounge and grade papers. The school could have let her go and cut her off insurance. They didn't and for that I am very, VERY proud to live in such a compassionate area where there aren't a lot of people who think she's a lazy slacker who doesn't deserve anything. The last day of school was June 17th. She passed away on June 22nd. You can count her as one of those leeches who pay no taxes either because once they itemize their medical expenses they won't owe a dime. I'd scold her for you but, well, yea.
Applause.......0 -
My job is taxes and finance. I'm damn good at it too. We paid taxes this year - 9%. Last year we didn't. Ditto the year before that. We got foreign income exemptions. We also didn't pay most of our 19 year marriage. I deducted our house, my office, business travel and expenses, classes, charitable donations, investment expenses, rental property and all the expenses it had, retirement accounts, property taxes, license plates, charitable mileage, etc, etc, etc. I've taken people with an income of over $250,000 and got them into a 0% tax bracket. In fact, according to the IRS, in 2009 1 in every 189 people who made over $200,000 paid no taxes. Funny how some people get so incredibly irate that someone who makes $20,000 doesn't pay any taxes but when you say someone who makes $250,000 doesn't pay taxes then there be crickets. In order for a family of 4 making $30,000 to actually have a taxable income at all you'd have to get rid of the standard deduction, child tax credit, and personal exemptions. But if the government did that it would affect everyone and suddenly the very people whining that this family doesn't pay taxes would be whining that the government was increasing taxes. So make up your damn minds. If you don't want tax increases don't whine that everyone but you should have a tax increase. It doesn't work that way.0
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All I'm gonna say is it must be nice to not have to pay taxes.... :indifferent: From either end of the spectrum.... We itemize everything we can and we still pay taxes...0
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When I think of things I would like to see my tax dollars go towards, healthcare for the poor is one thing I don't mind. I'm sure I can pick apart nearly everyones life who has made mistakes over the course of a few decades and decide that they made some wrong choices and ended up where they are.....but I don't think they should die from preventable health conditions for it. There is a difference between tough love and being apithetic to your fellow humans or americans.
Rights. Everyone is up in arms about their rights. I think it is reasonable to include economic freedom with our civil liberties. But when I think of things that are currently going on in this country, I just don't get how the vast majority of conservatives or what ever they are, can get so rabidly worked up over Obama care when they have done NOTHING about things like The Patriot Act, warrantless wire taps, indefinated detention, secret prisons, or spy drones being used against our own citizens. Maybe I am generalizing, but it seems that Republicans or Conservatives only care about liberties when they think it will cost them money which is ****ing sad.
Besides, and I could be wrong on this, but as far as healthcare not being a "right". I agree. But police departments aren't rights. Neither are interstate highways, public libraries and schools, postal service, fire fighters, clean drinking water, sewage, and a littany of other things that we as Americans have benefited from for a very long time not covered under the Bill of Rights.0 -
I'm not sure anyone on either side of this argument would refer to her as a "leech who pays no taxes". That's like the other poster who said people who are against Obamacare would rather see poor people die in the streets.You can count her as one of those leeches who pay no taxes either because once they itemize their medical expenses they won't owe a dime. I'd scold her for you but, well, yea.0 -
When I think of things I would like to see my tax dollars go towards, healthcare for the poor is one thing I don't mind. I'm sure I can pick apart nearly everyones life who has made mistakes over the course of a few decades and decide that they made some wrong choices and ended up where they are.....but I don't think they should die from preventable health conditions for it. There is a difference between tough love and being apithetic to your fellow humans or americans.
Rights. Everyone is up in arms about their rights. I think it is reasonable to include economic freedom with our civil liberties. But when I think of things that are currently going on in this country, I just don't get how the vast majority of conservatives or what ever they are, can get so rabidly worked up over Obama care when they have done NOTHING about things like The Patriot Act, warrantless wire taps, indefinated detention, secret prisons, or spy drones being used against our own citizens. Maybe I am generalizing, but it seems that Republicans or Conservatives only care about liberties when they think it will cost them money which is ****ing sad.
Besides, and I could be wrong on this, but as far as healthcare not being a "right". I agree. But police departments aren't rights. Neither are interstate highways, public libraries and schools, postal service, fire fighters, clean drinking water, sewage, and a littany of other things that we as Americans have benefited from for a very long time not covered under the Bill of Rights.
Meh... Democrats haven't done anything about the Patriot act and all the things you listed either... in fact Obama signed the Patriot Act extention... But then I also think both parties (and their hardcore groupies) are full of crap.... I think the difference between some of the social privilages that you listed comes down to who funds and manages them.... yes, police and fire departments may get a federal grant here and there, but they are largely a local entity... the local city hires them because the city and it's citizens feels it's necessary... not because the federal government mandates it.... the same goes for libraries, water and sewer... and what not... cities are also well within their rights to opt for a private company to take this over and manage it... though this doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.... and while it may not seem like a big difference to a lot of people, I personally don't have a problem with local and/or state governments issuing taxes and providing a service... I may be biased in this though.... however, I do disagree with the federal government doing such things.... like I said before, the United States is a diverse country in many different ways.... what is needed in Washington State is not going to be the same as what is needed in Mississippi... I feel this way about education, I feel this way about just about everything.... and I feel that all too often, the federal government puts a cure all on to everything instead of considering the nuances of each region...
BTW, I don't mind the interstate system, because that was initially started as a national defense mechinism... a way to move convoys easily from one area to another in the time of war.... and it helps regulate interstate commerce.... also I wouldn't mind seeing the post office privatized, as a public entity they haven't been making any money in a long time... mostly due to government legislation that makes it hard for the USPS to close a post office if it is not making any money to stand... they have been "borrowing" from the government for years now.0 -
I thought this was a 'friendly' debate site... Calling someone an idiot for her beliefs is character defining, in my opinion, as is using WIC when you drive a nice car with nice clothes and jewelry. Sell the car and get a cheaper one, sell the jewelry (aside from the sentimental), and consign your nice clothes to pay for things if you have to. I speak from experience as one who works as a teacher and whose husband earns upper middle class income. I have a chronic illness with 'good' medical insurance and sometimes have to do without to pay for the ongoing medical bills. People don't want to sacrifice, and seem to think they have a right to things they can't afford. It's pretty pathetic.0
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Wed 07/11/12 10:28 AM
You forgot a few.You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.
People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.
To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:
1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.
1. Never get seriously ill.
2. Never get laid off.
3. Never have a seriously ill child.
4. Never take care of an elderly parent or grandparent.
5. Never get into a car accident.
You are an idiot if you honestly think that those 1st 5 things are how to get wealthy in America. I've been married for 19 years. We have 2 kids ages 15 and 12. I was 27 and a homeowner before we got pregnant with our first. The only debt we've ever had were a small student loan from my husband, mortgages, and 2 car payments (on a total of 6 cars over those 19 years, only 2 since 2000). I pay everything on credit and pay in full every month. I make money using credit cards because of the reward programs. We worked hard and were financially stable enough for me to be able to be a SAHM when we had kids. We are financially well off. We're not 1%ers but we're probably in the 5%er group. We've also been on WIC when my husband was activated with the National Guard reserves and sent to Iraq in 2003. He was laid off from a 6 figure job when they found out that he would likely be activated. (Yea, I know it's illegal. JAG asked if they put it in writing. *rolleyes* ) When he was activated our household income dropped 75% and stayed there. So, yea, I was that woman in the nice car with nice clothes and nice jewelry buying cheese and milk with WIC coupons. You're welcome. We rebounded again when he came home but it took a while since no one would hire him because they all thought he'd get activated again. (yes, most actually said that. No, they didn't put it into writing.) My husband now has a good job income wise. However, he's on his way to Afghanistan right now where he'll be until Christmas. We do what we have to do and are lucky enough to be healthy and physically able to do these things.
Not everyone is so lucky. I'm not stupid enough to believe that everyone really has the same opportunities. A soldier who comes home missing a leg isn't going to be able to do his job. Someone who has cancer and isn't able to work isn't going to be able to make it at all no matter when they get married or how law abiding they are. My son had a wonderful teacher this past year. She had stage 4 breast cancer. He husband works but can only work part time because he had to care for her. The school was wonderful enough to keep her on staff even after she could no longer work just so she could have health insurance. She didn't come in often but when she did she'd sit in the teacher's lounge and grade papers. The school could have let her go and cut her off insurance. They didn't and for that I am very, VERY proud to live in such a compassionate area where there aren't a lot of people who think she's a lazy slacker who doesn't deserve anything. The last day of school was June 17th. She passed away on June 22nd. You can count her as one of those leeches who pay no taxes either because once they itemize their medical expenses they won't owe a dime. I'd scold her for you but, well, yea.
Applause.......
I thought this was a 'friendly' debate site... Calling someone an idiot for her beliefs is character defining, in my opinion, as is using WIC when you drive a nice car with nice clothes and jewelry. Sell the car and get a cheaper one, sell the jewelry (aside from the sentimental), and consign your nice clothes to pay for things if you have to. I speak from experience as one who works as a teacher and whose husband earns upper middle class income. I have a chronic illness with 'good' medical insurance and sometimes have to do without to pay for the ongoing medical bills. People don't want to sacrifice, and seem to think they have a right to things they can't afford. It's pretty pathetic.0 -
When I think of things I would like to see my tax dollars go towards, healthcare for the poor is one thing I don't mind. I'm sure I can pick apart nearly everyones life who has made mistakes over the course of a few decades and decide that they made some wrong choices and ended up where they are.....but I don't think they should die from preventable health conditions for it. There is a difference between tough love and being apithetic to your fellow humans or americans.
Rights. Everyone is up in arms about their rights. I think it is reasonable to include economic freedom with our civil liberties. But when I think of things that are currently going on in this country, I just don't get how the vast majority of conservatives or what ever they are, can get so rabidly worked up over Obama care when they have done NOTHING about things like The Patriot Act, warrantless wire taps, indefinated detention, secret prisons, or spy drones being used against our own citizens. Maybe I am generalizing, but it seems that Republicans or Conservatives only care about liberties when they think it will cost them money which is ****ing sad.
Besides, and I could be wrong on this, but as far as healthcare not being a "right". I agree. But police departments aren't rights. Neither are interstate highways, public libraries and schools, postal service, fire fighters, clean drinking water, sewage, and a littany of other things that we as Americans have benefited from for a very long time not covered under the Bill of Rights.
Meh... Democrats haven't done anything about the Patriot act and all the things you listed either... in fact Obama signed the Patriot Act extention... But then I also think both parties (and their hardcore groupies) are full of crap.... I think the difference between some of the social privilages that you listed comes down to who funds and manages them.... yes, police and fire departments may get a federal grant here and there, but they are largely a local entity... the local city hires them because the city and it's citizens feels it's necessary... not because the federal government mandates it.... the same goes for libraries, water and sewer... and what not... cities are also well within their rights to opt for a private company to take this over and manage it... though this doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.... and while it may not seem like a big difference to a lot of people, I personally don't have a problem with local and/or state governments issuing taxes and providing a service... I may be biased in this though.... however, I do disagree with the federal government doing such things.... like I said before, the United States is a diverse country in many different ways.... what is needed in Washington State is not going to be the same as what is needed in Mississippi... I feel this way about education, I feel this way about just about everything.... and I feel that all too often, the federal government puts a cure all on to everything instead of considering the nuances of each region...
BTW, I don't mind the interstate system, because that was initially started as a national defense mechinism... a way to move convoys easily from one area to another in the time of war.... and it helps regulate interstate commerce.... also I wouldn't mind seeing the post office privatized, as a public entity they haven't been making any money in a long time... mostly due to government legislation that makes it hard for the USPS to close a post office if it is not making any money to stand... they have been "borrowing" from the government for years now.
It wasn't a defense of Democrats, I hold them just as accountable for things like the Patriot Act, but since we were talking about Obama Care and the conservatives seem to be outraged the most, I just wonder when they all became such hard core constitutionalists because it wasn't from 2000-2008.
And I understand what you are saying about the difference between State and Federal services, but they aren't "rights" and it's the same concept. Besides, I'm a little sick of the whole States rights discussion. Seems like when ever I hear a person advocating "States Rights", they are getting ready to **** someone else out of something like marriage another civil liberty issue.0 -
When I think of things I would like to see my tax dollars go towards, healthcare for the poor is one thing I don't mind. I'm sure I can pick apart nearly everyones life who has made mistakes over the course of a few decades and decide that they made some wrong choices and ended up where they are.....but I don't think they should die from preventable health conditions for it. There is a difference between tough love and being apithetic to your fellow humans or americans.
Rights. Everyone is up in arms about their rights. I think it is reasonable to include economic freedom with our civil liberties. But when I think of things that are currently going on in this country, I just don't get how the vast majority of conservatives or what ever they are, can get so rabidly worked up over Obama care when they have done NOTHING about things like The Patriot Act, warrantless wire taps, indefinated detention, secret prisons, or spy drones being used against our own citizens. Maybe I am generalizing, but it seems that Republicans or Conservatives only care about liberties when they think it will cost them money which is ****ing sad.
Besides, and I could be wrong on this, but as far as healthcare not being a "right". I agree. But police departments aren't rights. Neither are interstate highways, public libraries and schools, postal service, fire fighters, clean drinking water, sewage, and a littany of other things that we as Americans have benefited from for a very long time not covered under the Bill of Rights.
Meh... Democrats haven't done anything about the Patriot act and all the things you listed either... in fact Obama signed the Patriot Act extention... But then I also think both parties (and their hardcore groupies) are full of crap.... I think the difference between some of the social privilages that you listed comes down to who funds and manages them.... yes, police and fire departments may get a federal grant here and there, but they are largely a local entity... the local city hires them because the city and it's citizens feels it's necessary... not because the federal government mandates it.... the same goes for libraries, water and sewer... and what not... cities are also well within their rights to opt for a private company to take this over and manage it... though this doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.... and while it may not seem like a big difference to a lot of people, I personally don't have a problem with local and/or state governments issuing taxes and providing a service... I may be biased in this though.... however, I do disagree with the federal government doing such things.... like I said before, the United States is a diverse country in many different ways.... what is needed in Washington State is not going to be the same as what is needed in Mississippi... I feel this way about education, I feel this way about just about everything.... and I feel that all too often, the federal government puts a cure all on to everything instead of considering the nuances of each region...
BTW, I don't mind the interstate system, because that was initially started as a national defense mechinism... a way to move convoys easily from one area to another in the time of war.... and it helps regulate interstate commerce.... also I wouldn't mind seeing the post office privatized, as a public entity they haven't been making any money in a long time... mostly due to government legislation that makes it hard for the USPS to close a post office if it is not making any money to stand... they have been "borrowing" from the government for years now.
It wasn't a defense of Democrats, I hold them just as accountable for things like the Patriot Act, but since we were talking about Obama Care and the conservatives seem to be outraged the most, I just wonder when they all became such hard core constitutionalists because it wasn't from 2000-2008.
And I understand what you are saying about the difference between State and Federal services, but they aren't "rights" and it's the same concept. Besides, I'm a little sick of the whole States rights discussion. Seems like when ever I hear a person advocating "States Rights", they are getting ready to **** someone else out of something like marriage another civil liberty issue.
True... it does seem like the masses pick and choose which constitutional rights to hang on too... :-/ Oh and I could go off on a whole different tirade about the State (on any level) being involved in marriages and civil contracts...0 -
I didn't need to sell anything to make ends meet. We had plenty in savings. My point was that we qualified for WIC because my husband was sent to war. Frankly, the fact that you think that someone whose spouse is sent to war should dress in rags, drive a clunker, and not own anything nice rather than get $30/month in government aid is rather character defining as well. FTR, the car was bought brand new 2 1/2 years earlier and was paid for (hubby worked for the company so we got it cheaper than the same model used would have been.) The clothes were bought at garage sales, Goodwill, etc. The jewelry was bought when I was single and managed a jewelry dept in college for 1/2 off or more from retail prices. Even though we are well off that doesn't mean I'm not frugal.Wed 07/11/12 10:28 AM
I thought this was a 'friendly' debate site... Calling someone an idiot for her beliefs is character defining, in my opinion, as is using WIC when you drive a nice car with nice clothes and jewelry. Sell the car and get a cheaper one, sell the jewelry (aside from the sentimental), and consign your nice clothes to pay for things if you have to. I speak from experience as one who works as a teacher and whose husband earns upper middle class income. I have a chronic illness with 'good' medical insurance and sometimes have to do without to pay for the ongoing medical bills. People don't want to sacrifice, and seem to think they have a right to things they can't afford. It's pretty pathetic.0
