That Was No "Accident"
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In situations like this, where the guy clearly doesn't want the child and was somewhat tricked into having one, he should not have to pay child support. I find it disgusting in situation like this, the women goes after the guy for child support.
If the man doesn't want to have the child, he shouldn't have to pay for it.
It just seems that the guy really has no say in the situation. He gets tricked, doesn't want the child, and is forced to pay for 18 years. It's horrific in my opinion.
I disagree Mike. If you are having sex with a woman you know it could very well result in a pregnancy. Duped or not those are the potential consequences. If you father a child, wanted or not, you should have to support said child. What I will say though is that men should have much more say (equal say) in the decisions that are made during and after pregnancy. Do we keep the baby, do we have an abortion, do we put it up for adoption etc. Currently very few courts entertain a mans opinion on any of these things and as it takes two to tango, the laws should be gender neutral.
But at the end of the day, you father a child and you should pay child support.0 -
*deleted* posted same twice0
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This thread makes me want to get my tubes dealt with even more. Actually a full hysterectomy is sounding really good. LOL
At the age of 25 my doctor told me at by 35 if I still didn't want kids we'd talk about "permanent BC measures" - ONE MORE YEAR!0 -
Good point Mike. I think if it is their choice and they make that choice to have the child, then it follows they shouldn't be entitled to any form of compensation.
I would say it was more their choice to have children, since they have termination options. But men can't control that, so then it falls onto their choice to engage in intercourse.
Believe me, I don't have a "woe is me" attitude as this hasn't even happened to me. I guess this is why I have ZERO sympathy for single mothers as well. It was their choice to have sex in the first place.I concur. I'm sick of the "woe is me, I don't get to force a woman to have an abortion" bullsh*t. It makes me ill to think that there are people who would actually force someone to bear a child or not bear a child because of some ridiculous notion about what is fair or not fair. Here's how it works, chaps. You don't want a lady to get preggers then do what you can to make sure it doesn't happen. Understand that when you stick your d*ck in a vagina, it's a possibility, however minute, that a baby could pop outta there 9 months later. If you don't want a kid don't have sex, get a vasectomy, or stick to anal and shut it with the attitude that you should have a deciding factor over another persons body.
Yeah, it's horrible when women trick men into having babies, but I find it really hard to sympathize with a guy who is shocked that sex leads to babies.
Absolutely! Especially in the case we're talking about, where the guy is purposely mislead and lied to. It just seems like a crappy deal that the guy would have to pay child support in this case.
1) The man chose to engage in sex, an act that is designed for procreation. Are you really surprised pregnancy happens as a result?
2) As I said above, how the hell do you prove it was intentional deception? It's pure he said she said. No proof. Unless you signed a contract stating something like "if you get pregnant, I'm not supporting it."
3) You would really refuse to pay child support on your own flesh and blood, even if you disliked the baby's mother? Wow.
Besides, didn't you once say you only sleep with women you wouldn't mind having a child with?
Ladies, here it is...another things that is ALL OUR FAULT in the minds of some men. :noway: The majority of us are rational and sane and agreed that tricking a guy with pregnancy is disgusting. But god forbid you have a true accident and suddenly you're super screwed when some men forget how anatomy works!! What did you skip 7th grade?? :grumble:0 -
I don't think the people who constitute this group are a population who have a huge statistical risk with AIDS (how many homosexuals/drug addicts do we have here? probably few). As for the other STDs I have heard of, my understanding was that they rarely left permanent problems if treated early enough.
Funny that the group rarely addresses this issue... I wonder if certain age groups are more or less concerned about this than others? I say that because of my age, I hit my teenage years in the 80s and the fear of HIV was huge at the time...obviously it had a lasting impression on my psyche. But those younger than I am don't seem to give it much attention (unless I'm missing something?).Is it bad that I'm more scared of catching an STD than knocking a girl up?? Call it more motivation to wrap it up I suppose.
However, I definitely see condoms as a way to prevent STDs as well (which is the other reason why I am using them as well).
First, anyone can still contract HIV regardless of your generalizations, but I understand you are saying other STD's are more likely at this point in time. You may have missed my point which was that HIV was 'the big unknown' at a time when I was first really learning and understanding sex and it's consequences, hence the reason it sticks in my head more than others perhaps.0 -
1) Well, surprised that there is a pregnancy... Not so much, we've seen before on this topic that there is 1% of chance (or something) that a woman can get pregnant even if all the precautions have been taken.
I agree with this:
1) The man chose to engage in sex, an act that is designed for procreation. Are you really surprised pregnancy happens as a result?
Absolutely! Especially in the case we're talking about, where the guy is purposely mislead and lied to. It just seems like a crappy deal that the guy would have to pay child support in this case.Good point Mike. I think if it is their choice and they make that choice to have the child, then it follows they shouldn't be entitled to any form of compensation.
2) As I said above, how the hell do you prove it was intentional deception? It's pure he said she said. No proof. Unless you signed a contract stating something like "if you get pregnant, I'm not supporting it."
3) You would really refuse to pay child support on your own flesh and blood, even if you disliked the baby's mother? Wow.
Besides, didn't you once say you only sleep with women you wouldn't mind having a child with?
1) The man chose to engage in sex, an act that is designed for procreation. Are you really surprised pregnancy happens as a result?
It may sound cliche, but it takes two to tango. Pregnancy is a possibility when having sex, whether you are using some form of contraceptive or not. BOTH parties are assuming this responsibility, unless as stated above, there was some sort of agreement signed stating that one party doesn't want to be held responsible.
Not rocket science. Take responsbility for your actions.
What surprises me more is that I was under the impression that in our day and age, we were able to prevent births with a 100% success rate...
But I agree that the woman should take responsibility for her actions (or lack, thereof) and not ask for child support if she decided not to terminate the pregnancy against the will of the man involved.
2) Such a contract have no value at all. That means a man can give up on his rights but never on his responsibilities.
That's (I think) what most men on here or in the article are irritated about.
We never get as much control as women over this situation.
3) It doesn't matter what the emotional standpoint of anyone is on this issue (I believe most men would actually support the child if you still want an answer to your question)... The legal standpoint is what we should be interested in (same as rape, murder, etc.).
Currently, as it stands, men have no defense against women acting as described in the article.
If some women are not willing to act responsibly with what nature gave them (i.e. their vagina) then law should protect men against that.0 -
On the off chance that this truly delightful thread should turn into a giant boys vs. girls debate complete with frustrated gnashing of teeth, insults, hair and fur a-flying, I'd like to remind everyone to maintain a reasonable level of respect for each other, whether or not the topic and/or the opinions expressed here are not your own and/or you find yourself getting quite heated about them.
xo0 -
Good point Mike. I think if it is their choice and they make that choice to have the child, then it follows they shouldn't be entitled to any form of compensation.
I would say it was more their choice to have children, since they have termination options. But men can't control that, so then it falls onto their choice to engage in intercourse.
Believe me, I don't have a "woe is me" attitude as this hasn't even happened to me. I guess this is why I have ZERO sympathy for single mothers as well. It was their choice to have sex in the first place.I concur. I'm sick of the "woe is me, I don't get to force a woman to have an abortion" bullsh*t. It makes me ill to think that there are people who would actually force someone to bear a child or not bear a child because of some ridiculous notion about what is fair or not fair. Here's how it works, chaps. You don't want a lady to get preggers then do what you can to make sure it doesn't happen. Understand that when you stick your d*ck in a vagina, it's a possibility, however minute, that a baby could pop outta there 9 months later. If you don't want a kid don't have sex, get a vasectomy, or stick to anal and shut it with the attitude that you should have a deciding factor over another persons body.
Yeah, it's horrible when women trick men into having babies, but I find it really hard to sympathize with a guy who is shocked that sex leads to babies.
Absolutely! Especially in the case we're talking about, where the guy is purposely mislead and lied to. It just seems like a crappy deal that the guy would have to pay child support in this case.
1) The man chose to engage in sex, an act that is designed for procreation. Are you really surprised pregnancy happens as a result?
2) As I said above, how the hell do you prove it was intentional deception? It's pure he said she said. No proof. Unless you signed a contract stating something like "if you get pregnant, I'm not supporting it."
3) You would really refuse to pay child support on your own flesh and blood, even if you disliked the baby's mother? Wow.
Besides, didn't you once say you only sleep with women you wouldn't mind having a child with?
Ladies, here it is...another things that is ALL OUR FAULT in the minds of some men. :noway: The majority of us are rational and sane and agreed that tricking a guy with pregnancy is disgusting. But god forbid you have a true accident and suddenly you're super screwed when some men forget how anatomy works!! What did you skip 7th grade?? :grumble:
Why is it every time Mike posts the same few women jump on him? I dont agree with many things he says, and in fact dont agree that he should not have to pay child support for an unwanted pregnancy. But I did it by saying, Mike I disagree and here is why and further here is where I do agree: legal rights etc.
I realize this is an internet forum, but in order to have true social discourse, if you dont like someones opinion please refrain from calling them an idiot who missed 7th grade. Like his opinions or not, Mike is clearly not an idiot. Further FlimFlam and I have agreed with Mike on many things in this post why dont you call us out in the same manner?
I understand some people here have had a history of not accepting things said by Mike and DM but lets keep it at social discourse and not name calling please.0 -
Why is it every time Mike posts the same few women jump on him? I dont agree with many things he says, and in fact dont agree that he should not have to pay child support for an unwanted pregnancy. But I did it by saying, Mike I disagree and here is why and further here is where I do agree: legal rights etc.
I realize this is an internet forum, but in order to have true social discourse, if you dont like someones opinion please refrain from calling them an idiot who missed 7th grade. Like his opinions or not, Mike is clearly not an idiot. Further FlimFlam and I have agreed with Mike on many things in this post why dont you call us out in the same manner?
I understand some people here have had a history of not accepting things said by Mike and DM but lets keep it at social discourse and not name calling please.
It's easier to say "I don't agree with you and you're an idiot" as opposed to "I don't agree with you because of X, Y, and Z".
You gave me a sharp, well thought out rebut to my post and I appreciate you shedding light on the topic.0 -
Good point Mike. I think if it is their choice and they make that choice to have the child, then it follows they shouldn't be entitled to any form of compensation.
I would say it was more their choice to have children, since they have termination options. But men can't control that, so then it falls onto their choice to engage in intercourse.
Believe me, I don't have a "woe is me" attitude as this hasn't even happened to me. I guess this is why I have ZERO sympathy for single mothers as well. It was their choice to have sex in the first place.I concur. I'm sick of the "woe is me, I don't get to force a woman to have an abortion" bullsh*t. It makes me ill to think that there are people who would actually force someone to bear a child or not bear a child because of some ridiculous notion about what is fair or not fair. Here's how it works, chaps. You don't want a lady to get preggers then do what you can to make sure it doesn't happen. Understand that when you stick your d*ck in a vagina, it's a possibility, however minute, that a baby could pop outta there 9 months later. If you don't want a kid don't have sex, get a vasectomy, or stick to anal and shut it with the attitude that you should have a deciding factor over another persons body.
Yeah, it's horrible when women trick men into having babies, but I find it really hard to sympathize with a guy who is shocked that sex leads to babies.
Absolutely! Especially in the case we're talking about, where the guy is purposely mislead and lied to. It just seems like a crappy deal that the guy would have to pay child support in this case.
1) The man chose to engage in sex, an act that is designed for procreation. Are you really surprised pregnancy happens as a result?
2) As I said above, how the hell do you prove it was intentional deception? It's pure he said she said. No proof. Unless you signed a contract stating something like "if you get pregnant, I'm not supporting it."
3) You would really refuse to pay child support on your own flesh and blood, even if you disliked the baby's mother? Wow.
Besides, didn't you once say you only sleep with women you wouldn't mind having a child with?
Ladies, here it is...another things that is ALL OUR FAULT in the minds of some men. :noway: The majority of us are rational and sane and agreed that tricking a guy with pregnancy is disgusting. But god forbid you have a true accident and suddenly you're super screwed when some men forget how anatomy works!! What did you skip 7th grade?? :grumble:
Why is it every time Mike posts the same few women jump on him? I dont agree with many things he says, and in fact dont agree that he should not have to pay child support for an unwanted pregnancy. But I did it by saying, Mike I disagree and here is why and further here is where I do agree: legal rights etc.
I realize this is an internet forum, but in order to have true social discourse, if you dont like someones opinion please refrain from calling them an idiot who missed 7th grade. Like his opinions or not, Mike is clearly not an idiot. Further FlimFlam and I have agreed with Mike on many things in this post why dont you call us out in the same manner?
I understand some people here have had a history of not accepting things said by Mike and DM but lets keep it at social discourse and not name calling please.
No place in my post did I call Mike out by name nor call anyone an idiot. I am very happy for reasonable discussions and debates, but I'm not going to change who I am or how I speak to do so.
Oh and I did respond to something else Flim said and I was not rude to him either.0 -
Good point Mike. I think if it is their choice and they make that choice to have the child, then it follows they shouldn't be entitled to any form of compensation.
I would say it was more their choice to have children, since they have termination options. But men can't control that, so then it falls onto their choice to engage in intercourse.
Believe me, I don't have a "woe is me" attitude as this hasn't even happened to me. I guess this is why I have ZERO sympathy for single mothers as well. It was their choice to have sex in the first place.I concur. I'm sick of the "woe is me, I don't get to force a woman to have an abortion" bullsh*t. It makes me ill to think that there are people who would actually force someone to bear a child or not bear a child because of some ridiculous notion about what is fair or not fair. Here's how it works, chaps. You don't want a lady to get preggers then do what you can to make sure it doesn't happen. Understand that when you stick your d*ck in a vagina, it's a possibility, however minute, that a baby could pop outta there 9 months later. If you don't want a kid don't have sex, get a vasectomy, or stick to anal and shut it with the attitude that you should have a deciding factor over another persons body.
Yeah, it's horrible when women trick men into having babies, but I find it really hard to sympathize with a guy who is shocked that sex leads to babies.
Absolutely! Especially in the case we're talking about, where the guy is purposely mislead and lied to. It just seems like a crappy deal that the guy would have to pay child support in this case.
1) The man chose to engage in sex, an act that is designed for procreation. Are you really surprised pregnancy happens as a result?
2) As I said above, how the hell do you prove it was intentional deception? It's pure he said she said. No proof. Unless you signed a contract stating something like "if you get pregnant, I'm not supporting it."
3) You would really refuse to pay child support on your own flesh and blood, even if you disliked the baby's mother? Wow.
Besides, didn't you once say you only sleep with women you wouldn't mind having a child with?
Ladies, here it is...another things that is ALL OUR FAULT in the minds of some men. :noway: The majority of us are rational and sane and agreed that tricking a guy with pregnancy is disgusting. But god forbid you have a true accident and suddenly you're super screwed when some men forget how anatomy works!! What did you skip 7th grade?? :grumble:
Why is it every time Mike posts the same few women jump on him? I dont agree with many things he says, and in fact dont agree that he should not have to pay child support for an unwanted pregnancy. But I did it by saying, Mike I disagree and here is why and further here is where I do agree: legal rights etc.
I realize this is an internet forum, but in order to have true social discourse, if you dont like someones opinion please refrain from calling them an idiot who missed 7th grade. Like his opinions or not, Mike is clearly not an idiot. Further FlimFlam and I have agreed with Mike on many things in this post why dont you call us out in the same manner?
I understand some people here have had a history of not accepting things said by Mike and DM but lets keep it at social discourse and not name calling please.
I think the difference is the wording. It's so matter-of-fact.0 -
This is just a blanket statement.. I'm not talking about specifics.
Why is it every time Mike posts the same few women jump on him? I dont agree with many things he says, and in fact dont agree that he should not have to pay child support for an unwanted pregnancy. But I did it by saying, Mike I disagree and here is why and further here is where I do agree: legal rights etc.
I realize this is an internet forum, but in order to have true social discourse, if you dont like someones opinion please refrain from calling them an idiot who missed 7th grade. Like his opinions or not, Mike is clearly not an idiot. Further FlimFlam and I have agreed with Mike on many things in this post why dont you call us out in the same manner?
I understand some people here have had a history of not accepting things said by Mike and DM but lets keep it at social discourse and not name calling please.
I've learned to just stay out of those ones because I don't have anything nice to say. And you know the saying..
I think it's about tact and support. When certain people make certain claims, there is always a more tactful way of doing it. As opposed to just throwing around these sweeping/hasty generalizations, why not have something to back it up or phrase it in a way that isn't condescending and rude? Some of the men on this board know how to do so tactfully. Some do not. People who do not use some kind of filter are more likely to be scrutinized and picked at, in my opinion.
Just a thought.0 -
Believe me, I don't have a "woe is me" attitude as this hasn't even happened to me. I guess this is why I have ZERO sympathy for single mothers as well. It was their choice to have sex in the first place.
I'll tackle this one.... As a single mother receiving no child support (and no type of assistance), I believe I have a leg to stand on in doing so.
I agree with you in the fact that there is far too much "woe is me" out there in regards to single mothers. There is also too much assistance readily available for them (as well as single fathers). I believe that many women place themselves in a position to be pitied instead of taking control of the situation. It wasn't easy when I first got divorced, but through hard work and sacrifice, I've been able to provide a very good life for my children. I knew exactly what situation I was placing myself in, and if anyone pitied me, I straightened them out very quickly.
I will say that I do take a little offense to your comment: "It was their choice to have sex in the first place". Where was the man? It takes two. It's his choice to take that risk, and it's his responsibility to take care of any baby that comes into this world. If he screws some batsh*t crazy woman that entraps him, that's on him. Is it fair? No, but he should have thought twice before leaving the condom in his wallet.0 -
I agree with Becky, and that is why I mentioned to Mike, that it takes two to tango so yes even an unwanted or "trapped" pregnancy to me still means the man has a responsibility to pay child support. The absence of child support often means a child must receive subsistence from the state which causes all of us to pay and we didnt all get to enjoy the sex!
I do also see the point of the woe is me single mother attitude. A large segment of society has spent many of the last years working diligently to take away fathers rights, and it is only in the last few years a lot of states have begun to reverse that trend.
Before anyone gets up in arms, I am not saying that it was fair in the past for a man to just leave his family and as the breadwinner leave a family and ex wife with no job skills with no hope of an income, however I also think the rules have shifted well past the point of equality in that regard and are only recently starting to bend back to what could "reasonably" be considered gender neutral.0 -
Believe me, I don't have a "woe is me" attitude as this hasn't even happened to me. I guess this is why I have ZERO sympathy for single mothers as well. It was their choice to have sex in the first place.
Um .. I'm not sure who said this or what context it was said in .. but I have serious issues with this statement. I am basically a single mother now .. but I was MARRIED and it was a mutual agreement of ours to have this child. So now I don't get to feel something about the fact that I am now doing it on my own?? Screw that and screw that statement you made.0 -
1) Well, surprised that there is a pregnancy... Not so much, we've seen before on this topic that there is 1% of chance (or something) that a woman can get pregnant even if all the precautions have been taken.
What surprises me more is that I was under the impression that in our day and age, we were able to prevent births with a 100% success rate...
But I agree that the woman should take responsibility for her actions (or lack, thereof) and not ask for child support if she decided not to terminate the pregnancy against the will of the man involved.
2) Such a contract have no value at all. That means a man can give up on his rights but never on his responsibilities.
That's (I think) what most men on here or in the article are irritated about.
We never get as much control as women over this situation.
3) It doesn't matter what the emotional standpoint of anyone is on this issue (I believe most men would actually support the child if you still want an answer to your question)... The legal standpoint is what we should be interested in (same as rape, murder, etc.).
Currently, as it stands, men have no defense against women acting as described in the article.
If some women are not willing to act responsibly with what nature gave them (i.e. their vagina) then law should protect men against that.
A man knows what a womans body is capable of. The man plants the seed. Yes, options of keeping the baby or having an abortion can be discussed but ultimately the man who decided to plant the seed has his hands tied because he has no control over a womans BODY. In being supportive with a friend and her boyfriend once, I saw first hand that other than killing a baby, abortion is painful, takes a toll on you emotionally, can cause complications and is very uncomfortable.
This ultimately turns into a terrible "he said/she said", "I'm taking you to court", "this is your child/no it's not"- someone just trying to pass the buck. You're speaking about a child, not a thing.0 -
Just a momentary though that doesn't seem to have been mentioned previously: regardless of the circumstances of conception, child support is exactly that - support of a child who is not in any way responsible either for the circumstances of its' birth, or the status of its parent's relationship. Refusal to ante up for the support of your biological child ' punishes' no-one but the child, and is frankly pretty childish behaviour in and of itself, suggesting insufficient maturity to be engaging in sex if one cannot understand and accept the potential consequences.
Apologies for mistakes etc - typing on phone with gloves on!0 -
What if, the woman being perfectly aware that the birth of the child will happen after an undesired pregnancy (undesired by the man), and so the child will never get the life he/she truly deserves...Just a momentary though that doesn't seem to have been mentioned previously: regardless of the circumstances of conception, child support is exactly that - support of a child who is not in any way responsible either for the circumstances of its' birth, or the status of its parent's relationship. Refusal to ante up for the support of your biological child ' punishes' no-one but the child, and is frankly pretty childish behaviour in and of itself, suggesting insufficient maturity to be engaging in sex if one cannot understand and accept the potential consequences.
What if the man doesn't want the child to step into this world in such poor conditions and that the man desires abortion?
In this case, will the woman step up and take her responsibilities?
Should she be able to refuse on moral grounds? (currently: no)
And should she be able to refuse on legal grounds? (currently: yes)
Later on, when the woman asks for the man to take his responsibilities i.e. pay for child support...
Should he be able to refuse on moral grounds? (currently: no, which is what you are invoking here - the morality of the action)
And should he be able to refuse on legal grounds? (currently: no, a man cannot refuse)
Does anyone else see a discrepancy here?
To add on that, I am 100% for child support in case of birth desired by both partners (100% for it both LEGALLY and MORALLY).
I don't however think there is any LEGAL ground (only a MORAL ground) to force someone to support a child if one of the partners didn't desire the birth, as it is entirely possible to prevent the birth from happening in this day and age. This specific case of child support should be on a voluntary basis (as much as it pains me to say that).0 -
A man knows what a womans body is capable of. The man plants the seed. Yes, options of keeping the baby or having an abortion can be discussed but ultimately the man who decided to plant the seed has his hands tied because he has no control over a womans BODY. In being supportive with a friend and her boyfriend once, I saw first hand that other than killing a baby, abortion is painful, takes a toll on you emotionally, can cause complications and is very uncomfortable.
This ultimately turns into a terrible "he said/she said", "I'm taking you to court", "this is your child/no it's not"- someone just trying to pass the buck. You're speaking about a child, not a thing.Just a momentary though that doesn't seem to have been mentioned previously: regardless of the circumstances of conception, child support is exactly that - support of a child who is not in any way responsible either for the circumstances of its' birth, or the status of its parent's relationship. Refusal to ante up for the support of your biological child ' punishes' no-one but the child, and is frankly pretty childish behaviour in and of itself, suggesting insufficient maturity to be engaging in sex if one cannot understand and accept the potential consequences.
Agree, good points. Actions can have undesirable consequences despite one's intentions. Not really an excuse to blow off responsibility connected to the consequences (a child).
I'm surprised by a sort of feigned naïveté on this issue. I don't take everybody at their word, and if I were a guy who did not want to impregnate someone- I'd wear a condom or get a vasectomy. A planned "unplanned" pregnancy is not something that your girlfriend or hook-up just invented. We're all aware that this can happen, and it's not that hard to prevent.0 -
Basically what it comes down to, apparently, in the minds of many of the men here, is that men deserve to have consequence-free complete sexual liberty. Women, on the other hand, should be punished for their licentiousness (and the suspicion they are all possibly capable of devious behavior) in having sex at all, by taking complete responsibility, which is factually only 50% theirs, for any and all arising consequences eg. Pregnancy and the resulting child. Equality? Women's lib? Pah - we're still in the dark ages. Immaculate conception is so rare we're still celebrating the known/legendary example 2000 plus years later. It's simple - if you have sex, you risk being partly responsible for the conception of a child. Accept the risk, or take action to prevent or diminish it. If you don't, you are culpable and have obligations. Full stop.0
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Believe me, I don't have a "woe is me" attitude as this hasn't even happened to me. I guess this is why I have ZERO sympathy for single mothers as well. It was their choice to have sex in the first place.
Um .. I'm not sure who said this or what context it was said in .. but I have serious issues with this statement. I am basically a single mother now .. but I was MARRIED and it was a mutual agreement of ours to have this child. So now I don't get to feel something about the fact that I am now doing it on my own?? Screw that and screw that statement you made.
Jen, I am 100% with you here. I was married, WE had a child TOGETHER, and now because of multiple variables that did not exist when we were married- I am a full time single mother. It effing sucks, and I definitely have the right to feel that.
Single slut mom as societal scapegoat is a pretty cliched idea. I'd find a better target.
Edit: This is Mike's statement.0 -
Basically what it comes down to, apparently, in the minds of many of the men here, is that men deserve to have consequence-free complete sexual liberty. Women, on the other hand, should be punished for their licentiousness (and the suspicion they are all possibly capable of devious behavior) in having sex at all, by taking complete responsibility, which is factually only 50% theirs, for any and all arising consequences eg. Pregnancy and the resulting child. Equality? Women's lib? Pah - we're still in the dark ages. Immaculate conception is so rare we're still celebrating the known/legendary example 2000 plus years later. It's simple - if you have sex, you risk being partly responsible for the conception of a child. Accept the risk, or take action to prevent or diminish it. If you don't, you are culpable and have obligations. Full stop.
Oh nonsense and remember the hypothetical in the op.
A committed relationship although not defined as to how long and the lady being the one to deceive.
While most have nodded at the fact that she is a bad person they also have stated to a degree or directly he shouldn`t complain as he had sex with her.
That is akin to saying pregnancy is a womans fault because she didn`t keep her legs closed...how would that go over?
What happened to that little thing called trust?
Are people actually saying that even if a mutually agreed upon strategy of birth control is the lady taking the pill you really should never believe she will stick to it?
Come on,most people are better then that and if a person does break that bond then they cannot be absolved nor should the hurt caused by it be demeaned or the resultant possible wish to walk away be condemned.
It is the same as saying that if the man wanted a child so poked holes in a condom that the woman was obligated to carry to term.
The premise was not a hook up or one night stand and while I know we (myself included) go off on tangents in this case that needs to be kind of kept in mind.0 -
Basically what it comes down to, apparently, in the minds of many of the men here, is that men deserve to have consequence-free complete sexual liberty. Women, on the other hand, should be punished for their licentiousness (and the suspicion they are all possibly capable of devious behavior) in having sex at all, by taking complete responsibility, which is factually only 50% theirs, for any and all arising consequences eg. Pregnancy and the resulting child. Equality? Women's lib? Pah - we're still in the dark ages. Immaculate conception is so rare we're still celebrating the known/legendary example 2000 plus years later. It's simple - if you have sex, you risk being partly responsible for the conception of a child. Accept the risk, or take action to prevent or diminish it. If you don't, you are culpable and have obligations. Full stop.
BOOM.
/endthread0 -
Actually, we're saying both. It's her fault AND his fault because sex = babies. I think a few people have said "it takes two to tango".Basically what it comes down to, apparently, in the minds of many of the men here, is that men deserve to have consequence-free complete sexual liberty. Women, on the other hand, should be punished for their licentiousness (and the suspicion they are all possibly capable of devious behavior) in having sex at all, by taking complete responsibility, which is factually only 50% theirs, for any and all arising consequences eg. Pregnancy and the resulting child. Equality? Women's lib? Pah - we're still in the dark ages. Immaculate conception is so rare we're still celebrating the known/legendary example 2000 plus years later. It's simple - if you have sex, you risk being partly responsible for the conception of a child. Accept the risk, or take action to prevent or diminish it. If you don't, you are culpable and have obligations. Full stop.
Oh nonsense and remember the hypothetical in the op.
A committed relationship although not defined as to how long and the lady being the one to deceive.
While most have nodded at the fact that she is a bad person they also have stated to a degree or directly he shouldn`t complain as he had sex with her.
That is akin to saying pregnancy is a womans fault because she didn`t keep her legs closed...how would that go over?
What happened to that little thing called trust?
Are people actually saying that even if a mutually agreed upon strategy of birth control is the lady taking the pill you really should never believe she will stick to it?
Women who are this deceptive and f*cked up show other signs of being a wacko. My guess is that there were several red flags that he ignored cause she was hot enough or something. I believe one of the first things I said is that dudes should stop banging psycho b*tches. Shouldn't trust them either.Come on,most people are better then that and if a person does break that bond then they cannot be absolved nor should the hurt caused by it be demeaned or the resultant possible wish to walk away be condemned.
It is the same as saying that if the man wanted a child so poked holes in a condom that the woman was obligated to carry to term.
It's not the same at ALL because it's her body. No one can, or should force to her to make a decision about her body that she doesn't want.
The premise was not a hook up or one night stand and while I know we (myself included) go off on tangents in this case that needs to be kind of kept in mind.
It's still the basic idea that sex = babies. Relationship, one night stand, whatever. It's a risk you take when you have sex with someone that 9 months later you might have a screaming, sh*tting, pink wriggler come into your life.0 -
True as far as facts go,just kind of sad that many seem to want to mitigate the horrible thing that was described imo to make it an equal issue when as written it was not.
Actually, we're saying both. It's her fault AND his fault because sex = babies. I think a few people have said "it takes two to tango".As long as both were condemned for deception and held to the same responsibility I have no issueBasically what it comes down to, apparently, in the minds of many of the men here, is that men deserve to have consequence-free complete sexual liberty. Women, on the other hand, should be punished for their licentiousness (and the suspicion they are all possibly capable of devious behavior) in having sex at all, by taking complete responsibility, which is factually only 50% theirs, for any and all arising consequences eg. Pregnancy and the resulting child. Equality? Women's lib? Pah - we're still in the dark ages. Immaculate conception is so rare we're still celebrating the known/legendary example 2000 plus years later. It's simple - if you have sex, you risk being partly responsible for the conception of a child. Accept the risk, or take action to prevent or diminish it. If you don't, you are culpable and have obligations. Full stop.
Oh nonsense and remember the hypothetical in the op.
A committed relationship although not defined as to how long and the lady being the one to deceive.
While most have nodded at the fact that she is a bad person they also have stated to a degree or directly he shouldn`t complain as he had sex with her.
That is akin to saying pregnancy is a womans fault because she didn`t keep her legs closed...how would that go over?
What happened to that little thing called trust?
Are people actually saying that even if a mutually agreed upon strategy of birth control is the lady taking the pill you really should never believe she will stick to it?
Women who are this deceptive and f*cked up show other signs of being a wacko. My guess is that there were several red flags that he ignored cause she was hot enough or something. I believe one of the first things I said is that dudes should stop banging psycho b*tches. Shouldn't trust them either.How many times have I said this about the lady lamenting the badass guy who turned into the *kitten* partner?
It seldom gets accepted.Come on,most people are better then that and if a person does break that bond then they cannot be absolved nor should the hurt caused by it be demeaned or the resultant possible wish to walk away be condemned.
It is the same as saying that if the man wanted a child so poked holes in a condom that the woman was obligated to carry to term.
It's not the same at ALL because it's her body. No one can, or should force to her to make a decision about her body that she doesn't want.But he should happily accept the financial and physical/social impact on his due to a deception...talk about a double standard
The premise was not a hook up or one night stand and while I know we (myself included) go off on tangents in this case that needs to be kind of kept in mind.
It's still the basic idea that sex = babies. Relationship, one night stand, whatever. It's a risk you take when you have sex with someone that 9 months later you might have a screaming, sh*tting, pink wriggler come into your life.
Would seem to be on par with suggesting a partner cheated on bears some responsibility in the breaking of what was a trust.0 -
Too many quotes to try to sort out.
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Simple concept: Storks bring babies. Swallows don't. /thread!0
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Basically what it comes down to, apparently, in the minds of many of the men here, is that men deserve to have consequence-free complete sexual liberty. Women, on the other hand, should be punished for their licentiousness (and the suspicion they are all possibly capable of devious behavior) in having sex at all, by taking complete responsibility, which is factually only 50% theirs, for any and all arising consequences eg. Pregnancy and the resulting child. Equality? Women's lib? Pah - we're still in the dark ages. Immaculate conception is so rare we're still celebrating the known/legendary example 2000 plus years later. It's simple - if you have sex, you risk being partly responsible for the conception of a child. Accept the risk, or take action to prevent or diminish it. If you don't, you are culpable and have obligations. Full stop.
The problem I have on this topic is that a lot of women's views on here are so incredibly one sided and offensive to the guys on here, most notably Flim and I. WE GET IT, it takes two to tango and the child is 50% ours, hence men have a certain amount financial obligation when it comes to raising a child.
My problem is that men have ZERO say whether or not the women should have the baby or not.
What if I was go out this weekend, pick up a drunk 10/10, and end up having sex. After she realizes she pregnant, she looks at me and secretly thinks to herself, "there's no way I want this guy in my life. I wouldn't even have sex with him sober." and decides to get an abortion. Meanwhile, I have baby fever and want to have the baby.. yet I have zero say whether she should keep the baby or not. And I thought the baby was 50% mine.. I guess I was wrong.0 -
My problem is that men have ZERO say whether or not the women should have the baby or not.
Yup, sorry. Ultimately it costs the woman more emotionally and physically to either get an abortion or follow through and have the child. Excuse me if I have little sympathy for men who think that they should have a say in that. You're right, it's not fair. Nothing will ever make it fair for everyone. That's life. Didn't your parents ever tell you life wasn't fair when you (arbitrary "you" not you speciically) were sniveling about how your older brother got to stay out later than you? You understand the risks when you have sex, can't go crying about it.
The baby IS 50% yours, but her body and soul isn't.0 -
Just reiderates the phrase "don't stick your **** in someone you wouldn't want to have a baby with"
The difference between, as a woman, having a child that both of you agree on and getting knocked up because you "wanted sex" or "where totally wasted and irresponsible" is completely different, even if both leave you as a single mother. I honestly don't think the men meant anything against ladies that are single mother because a relationship didn't work out. I'm not one to support the guys on here, but I don't think they meant to be rude.
Within the first month of dating my boyfriend I thought I might be pregnant, during this time before I took a test we had a very detailed discussion about what we'd do. I don't believe in abortion if you had sex consentually, ever. But I don't want kids, ever. If I had been pregnant I would have gone through the pregnacy and given the baby up for adoption, to someone who really wanted a baby. I don't feel it's good to be a parent if you don't WANT to. Raising a child should be something you want to do. He preferred if I had been pregnant to abort, because he would have gotten attached and not wanted to give the baby up at the end of the 9 months. Neither of us want kids, ever, but even though both options would have left us without a child, we had different preferences. But ultimately, he agreed that it was up to me, it was my body.0
This discussion has been closed.