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Woman should make the first move?
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Income really isnt something that matters to me.... As long as they have a job and can support themselves I'm ok with thatIncome doesn't matter to me, as long as he's able to pay his own bills and doesn't depend on someone else to do so.
A month ago, I would have said the above. You guys have heard me wax poetic about the mechanic and other low wage earners in my church singles group. Since guys who own their own businesses / are at the top of their game / are doing well for themselves in my part of the country STILL don’t make what I make, I stopped letting “makes more than me” be a requirement.
But once BB mentioned the “M” word, I realized I *DO* care about a man’s finances. Not only do I care WHAT he makes, but I care how he is managing it and how he is planning for the future.
One weird thing is that after BB started talking about long term plans, my attitude toward how HE spent on me changed. I really didn’t care about all the nice restaurants until he talk about us being a committed couple. Now, I’m beginning to feel somewhat responsible for the money he spends on me, and since I’m pretty frugal I don’t want him being too extravagant or wasteful. If he had a good savings built up and sound investments, I had that would be different (spend away!!) but he doesn’t: and that concerns me.
Some of the questions I now think about as far as a man’s income:
How does he feel about money? Does he have enough earning potential that he won’t be mad at me later for being a high-earner? Does he plan to be financially independent one day (Anyone can achieve this through budgeting and sound investments, but many people think it’s hopeless and won’t make the effort)? Does he have the right mindset to HELP me achieve my goal of financial independence, or is he the entitled type who will eventually spend everything I save up? Even if he wouldn’t HURT my goals, would he simply ride my coattails or would he be an active participant? How is he managing his pay? Does he make enough to maintain the lifestyle he wooed me with, or would our fun trips cease (or be funded entirely by me)? Does he make enough that he won’t be upset if I buy my own jewelry/expensive items (or, if he insists on buying them for me WILL he and CAN he actually buy them for me)?
Currently, BB does not know what I make. I’ve told him we have “about the same take home” which is currently true, but due to divorce responsibilities that eat up a significant portion of my check before I see it, I really do make more on paper. I have savings and investments and a frugal mindset. He is still climbing out of his own divorce pit and I'm waiting to see what his long term attitude will be.
At the same time, it’s pretty hard to be critical for someone for not spending their money when they’re spending a significant portion of their income on YOU.0 -
But once BB mentioned the “M” word, I realized I *DO* care about a man’s finances. Not only do I care WHAT he makes, but I care how he is managing it and how he is planning for the future.
Just goes to show how different most men and women think. I could care less "WHAT" my partner makes. More important is that she enjoys her job, she's good at it, has a positive attitude, etc. On the other hand, how she is managing her money is important. She needs to have a healthy, responsible attitude towards finance.
But if she's a starving artist or a fast rising corporate exec, makes little difference to me. Or rather, I take that back: I'd probably prefer the starving artist, since she would be around more often (I also like artists). If she's a corporate exec, I hope she manages her time well. I already travel too much. I'd hate for her to be away all the time, as well.
Money has never meant much to me, other than a way to show I'm adding value. Something like poker chips in the game of life, I suppose. I don't spend much money on myself, don't really look at the prices of most things, don't really need to have a huge house, whatever. I just keep it simple. I like my minimalist lifestyle. On the other hand, I never want to be in a position where I can't have something because of money (even though, again, I don't really want much). And I'd certainly never want a partner that lived beyond our means.
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But once BB mentioned the “M” word, I realized I *DO* care about a man’s finances. Not only do I care WHAT he makes, but I care how he is managing it and how he is planning for the future.
Just goes to show how different most men and women think. I could care less "WHAT" my partner makes.
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Money has never meant much to me, other than a way to show I'm adding value.
Money never meant much to me, either, until I found myself supporting a man who refused to work and after the divorce unloading over 700K of debt he racked up. Last year I celebrated the day I was finally "only" in 5-figures of debt. Two more years til debt free.
It is very important to me not to end up in that situation again. It's not so much what he does with HIS money, as that I'm looking at indicators of what he will eventually do with MY money and whether I can trust him enough to make it OUR money.0 -
Oh, and on that other post, the last sentence should have read:
it’s pretty hard to be critical for someone for not SAVING their money when they’re spending a significant portion of their income on YOU.
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This is not reality, this is not life.
The rich get to enjoy life more than someone who isn't that is reality.
Demonizing someone for their success is pointless. If someone has earned their way and now uses their money to sustain themselves in a responsible manner, he has accomplished more than the majority of the population.
Building a good amount of wealth takes discipline, as far as im concerned if someone has earned their wealth they are not forced to work any longer.
You can demand "fairness" in the game of life all you want, but that is simply unrealistic. I am actually slightly appalled the amount of jealousy in this thread.
Also to note: I know someone is going to say "WAIL WUT IF THEY ENHARITED THEIR WELF, THEN THAT IS SO UNFAREEEE!"
Welcome to life, where things are not fair. I don't think people should judge those individuals either.
Again, personal preference. I do not care to date a trust fund baby.
In regards to the other question. Yes, I've dated wealthy men. While they are nice gentleman and highly regarded in society, they were not the type of men I wanted to be with. Their schedules were demanding, and with some, not all, I felt like an object. Yes, it was nice to receive fine gifts (which I returned) and offers of houses (I of course did not accept). It was flattering at times, but then you realize that it was more for their image than the relationship. While this was flattering, it was not the lifestyle I desired.
So, yes. Having been in the situation, I answer again. Bachelor #2.0 -
Money never meant much to me, either, until I found myself supporting a man who refused to work and after the divorce unloading over 700K of debt he racked up. Last year I celebrated the day I was finally "only" in 5-figures of debt. Two more years til debt free.
It is very important to me not to end up in that situation again. It's not so much what he does with HIS money, as that I'm looking at indicators of what he will eventually do with MY money and whether I can trust him enough to make it OUR money.
Well, that's why I separated the WHAT (as in how much she makes) with the HOW (as in how she manages her money). You can make little or no money and still be responsible, frugal, mature. Clearly someone who racks up 700k USD in debt (or 1.4 million USD in debt, since you split it upon divorce?) has serious issues that go way beyond his apparent refusal to work.
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Well, that's why I separated the WHAT (as in how much she makes) with the HOW (as in how she manages her money). You can make little or no money and still be responsible, frugal, mature. Clearly someone who racks up 700k USD in debt (or 1.4 million USD in debt, since you split it upon divorce?) has serious issues that go way beyond his apparent refusal to work.
No, it was in the 900s, but I took the bulk b\c if I didn't, he said he'd take me to court to get our son. I had the better job and my advisors said that if we went to court not only would I likely lose physical custody of my son (because of my high tempo military job- I'm gone too much, and was away on military travel when this all happened), I'd also rack up extra legal fees and possibly get stuck with ALL the debt.
He does have issues. He refuses to admit it, but I do believe he suffers from PTSD from his time in Iraq.
In retrospect, I acted too hastily and probably COULD have both kept my son and had a more equitable distribution, since I don’t think he really *wanted* the boy so much as he was using *my desire* to keep him in order to get me to take on the debt. OTOH, that was one of the fastest divorces ever, and even with that debt my quality of life went WAY up even that first month.
I hate thinking of the time-value of all that money lost. I could be rich right now.0 -
But if she's a starving artist or a fast rising corporate exec, makes little difference to me. Or rather, I take that back: I'd probably prefer the starving artist, since she would be around more often (I also like artists). If she's a corporate exec, I hope she manages her time well. I already travel too much. I'd hate for her to be away all the time, as well.
The starving artist is usually the better choice. On the surface, it shouldn't matter. On the surface, I'd be very open to the fast track career woman as in fact in theory it would take financial pressure off of me. But in reality, it doesn't play out that way.
I perceive that fast track career women are notoriously difficult to make happy, and that's a reason towards why I am not positively predisposed towards that type. Studies show that women are generally unhappy when they out earn the man in a relationship. Depending upon a woman's occupation and industry, she could out earn me. Part of the appeal of my chosen career field is that hours are not as long as some other career tracks, but believe me, my field has the potential for long hours and stress for sure. A guy like me needs a nurturing, supportive partner. The way I see things, I have enough issues in my work life. When I leave work, I need to be with someone who solves problems, not causes me additional problems. At the same time, when a Type A, career track girl finds a driven guy on the same level as her, it can happen that she can make accusations that the guy is too Type A and two Type A, driven people can't work together as a couple.
A starving artist type would bring her own issues as well, but some may be more manageable. Individual circumstances vary.0 -
Income really isnt something that matters to me.... As long as they have a job and can support themselves I'm ok with thatIncome doesn't matter to me, as long as he's able to pay his own bills and doesn't depend on someone else to do so.
What is more attractive, a guy who is a trust fund kid with millions in the bank, no debt and doesn't work or a guy who makes likes $40,000 a year, limited net worth and can support himself with a job, but is one job loss away from significant financial issues?
Do you know trust fund kids? I do. Were you raised w trust fund kids? I was. Was everything handed to you? I was. I walked away from the money for a reason.......... It's not all its cracked up to be! I have fleeting moments when I wish I could have that lifestyle again and raise my kids in it, but then I do a reality check and remember WHY I walked away!
Give me a man that loves what he does and makes more than me ( not hard). But, I don't need 6 figures or more anymore!!!!0 -
What is more attractive, a guy who is a trust fund kid with millions in the bank, no debt and doesn't work or a guy who makes likes $40,000 a year, limited net worth and can support himself with a job, but is one job loss away from significant financial issues?
A couple more details for my original hypothetical, which I did keep intentionally vague. I really enjoy the insight I'm seeing here from the ladies.
1. The trust funder millionaire doesn't work, but does manage money well. He lives below his means. He's figured out a way to financially plan so that he doesn't have to work for the rest of his life. The woman who he is with would be able to live comfortably with him, but she wouldn't be quitting her day job, at least not in the short to medium term.
2. The 2nd guy works in an industry where job security is limited. Most industries function this way in this economy. His skill set is not unique and income growth over time would be limited. The historical precedent suggests that male income stops growing around age 45.
Ages of the two men in the hypothetical are whatever you want them to be. Assume the man is never married, no children.
If number 1 was like my dad, only my age, yes. I'd marry him. My parents are both millionaires because of my father. He is not lazy nor a homebody. He's an amazing man that was born into the right family, at the right time and met the right people at the right time and made a ton of money in his younger years. So, if I met someone just like my dad ( only in his 30s) yes, I'd marry him!!! :-)0 -
I hate thinking of the time-value of all that money lost. I could be rich right now.
Think you had a bad lawyer. Your ex had no job, massive debts, plus he's a man.... Hard to see how he would have gotten custody of your son. But in any case, glad the divorce worked out for you. Peace of mind is worth a lot.
My point was that no matter how much money he made, he would most likely still be in debt. Because clearly he has no ability to manage money. But as I said in my original post, most women view this differently from men. They are looking for responsibility AND raw earning power.
Also, not sure how the military is paying now, but if you've paid down over 600k USD in debt (plus interest?), I believe the pay scale there has jumped quite a bit from what I remember. You've been eating Ramen noodles for 5 years? ;-)
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A starving artist type would bring her own issues as well, but some may be more manageable. Individual circumstances vary.
I think I'd prefer the starving artist, too, just because she would bring a different perspective, and compliment me better (plus I tend to like art, and artistic people). On the other hand, it's really hard to generalize.
Also, I probably wouldn't have a problem quitting my work and being the starving artist myself, if my partner had a great job. Not because she could possibly earn more than me. But because she wanted to continue with her work more than I would. Anything's possible.
I've always wanted to spend more time on the garden. I love to cook. Besides, I have some ideas for a few ventures that would probably never be mega profitable, but could do well, and keep me busy (and out of airports).
You really have to look at this on a case by case basis.
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I perceive that fast track career women are notoriously difficult to make happy, and that's a reason towards why I am not positively predisposed towards that type.
Why do you have this perception?Studies show that women are generally unhappy when they out earn the man in a relationship.
Typically because the men make it an issue...The way I see things, I have enough issues in my work life. When I leave work, I need to be with someone who solves problems, not causes me additional problems.
Again, why would you think a fast track career woman would cause you more problems than a starving artist type? I would think the fast track career types would have less drama and demands than the starving artist types.At the same time, when a Type A, career track girl finds a driven guy on the same level as her, it can happen that she can make accusations that the guy is too Type A and two Type A, driven people can't work together as a couple.
I disagree with this. I'm Type A, and I can't date a guy who isn't also Type A. The Type Bs or whatever drive me absolutely bonkers. I've had some great relationships with other Type As.0 -
I perceive that fast track career women are notoriously difficult to make happy, and that's a reason towards why I am not positively predisposed towards that type.
Why do you have this perception?Studies show that women are generally unhappy when they out earn the man in a relationship.
Typically because the men make it an issue...The way I see things, I have enough issues in my work life. When I leave work, I need to be with someone who solves problems, not causes me additional problems.
Again, why would you think a fast track career woman would cause you more problems than a starving artist type? I would think the fast track career types would have less drama and demands than the starving artist types.At the same time, when a Type A, career track girl finds a driven guy on the same level as her, it can happen that she can make accusations that the guy is too Type A and two Type A, driven people can't work together as a couple.
I disagree with this. I'm Type A, and I can't date a guy who isn't also Type A. The Type Bs or whatever drive me absolutely bonkers. I've had some great relationships with other Type As.
Question 1: Why do I have that perception?
Based upon individual experience. My individual experience has been that fast track career women have been fussy and hard to please. Nothing ever seems to make them happy. I have experienced women like this. These relationships go nowhere.
Comment 1: RE: Women being unhappy in relationships when they out earn men.
Well, is that the case that men make it an issue? I wouldn't make it a case. I would feel relief of a financial burden being lifted. My experience has been different. My experiences have been that women are pre-disposed to not wanting to carry the lead earner role and that they'll write you off immediately if they out earn you. I've felt that women make it an issue more than men.
Comment 2: Who causes more drama? Fast Trackers vs. Starving Artists
I look to avoid drama as much as possible. Both create issues. I'm not really even drawn to the starving artist type. That's far from a top choice.
Comment 3: Type A vs Type B
I have gotten feedback from Type A women that they can't handle two Type A's in a relationship. I'm a Type A'er, but I'm more moderate and know when the scale back. Of course, there was a recent occurrence when a so-called Type A woman hurled an accusation at me of being too Type A without even fully giving me the time of day and said she tends to do better with non Type A more laid back types. I think she really didn't know what she wanted. If she really did well with the laid back type dude, she wouldn't have been single. But I liked that you, as a Type A, think other Type A's are a good fit.0 -
At the same time, when a Type A, career track girl finds a driven guy on the same level as her, it can happen that she can make accusations that the guy is too Type A and two Type A, driven people can't work together as a couple.
I disagree with this. I'm Type A, and I can't date a guy who isn't also Type A. The Type Bs or whatever drive me absolutely bonkers. I've had some great relationships with other Type As.
Even though there will always be exceptions, I've always noticed that alpha women prefer alpha men. While alpha men usually prefer beta women.
When I look at my contacts in law enforcement, every female cop or detective is married to a man in law enforcement. On the legal end of things, I've seen many female prosecutors marry male counterparts in the same field. Strong alpha female personalities are generally attracted to strong male personalities.
The exact opposite is true for men. As an alpha male type, the last type of person I want to date is an alpha female. I'd rather find someone very agreeable with a warm personality (1950's housewife skills like baking and sandwich making is a huge plus too!)0 -
My point was that no matter how much money he made, he would most likely still be in debt.
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Because clearly he has no ability to manage money.
Why do you always assume so much in your arguments? I go on deployment, you write "well you volunteered for it." No I didn’t. When I joined the military, people in my career field were never allowed out of the country. I write about my debt. You write "must have been 1.4$M" (I don’t know anyone who split debt even- in fact the military buddies all seemed to end up with most of it). Why not just respond to the information that is provided?
My ex is not bad with money. His debt was not due to inability to manage his money, but due to (he said this to me) the fact that he knew I, wanting to keep my security clearances, would find a way to do whatever it took to dig us out. It hurt when he told me this, but it spurred me to action to prevent further damage. He was much smarter than I was, using me and my work ethic. He used his step-mom for the first year after the divorce. She wised up, cut him off, and now he is doing just fine. He's a GS14 in DC (good money).Also, not sure how the military is paying now, but if you've paid down over 600k USD in debt (plus interest?), I believe the pay scale there has jumped quite a bit from what I remember. You've been eating Ramen noodles for 5 years? ;-)
Ramen is too unhealthy, lol, but yes we eat frugally: dry beans, homemade stuff, soup from scratch with leftovers, etc. Also, up til last year I was a licensed Realtor, which pays far more than my military pay, and I have an online boutique. I let my Realtor's membership lapse last year because my Shreveport job is too travel intensive, but the good thing is that all that travel comes with travel pay and if you are frugal about your travel you can rack in quite a bit. I'm about halfway through to saving up to pay off the last loan, though I'm considering delaying that and just paying off my new Rav instead. Even though the bank has frozen the line, my ex has found ways of "un freezing" it so my intent is to pay it off in full and them immediately close it, hopefully by the end of next year.
I'm not asking a guy to work THAT hard, lol, but I'm working too hard overcoming this situation to have some man come in and ride my coattails.
PS: It doesn't hurt that for the last 2 or so years most of my entertainment budget has been covered by men taking me out ha ha ha!
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I'd rather find someone very agreeable with a warm personality (1950's housewife skills like baking and sandwich making is a huge plus too!)
Yes, this is very desirable.0 -
I'd rather find someone very agreeable with a warm personality (1950's housewife skills like baking and sandwich making is a huge plus too!)
Yes, this is very desirable.
If you want to live a boring life.0 -
I'd rather find someone very agreeable with a warm personality (1950's housewife skills like baking and sandwich making is a huge plus too!)
Yes, this is very desirable.
If you want to live a boring life.
Not necessarily, I have those skills and enjoy doing that for a worthwhile man. I certainly have extra spunk and adventure though!0 -
I'd rather find someone very agreeable with a warm personality (1950's housewife skills like baking and sandwich making is a huge plus too!)
Yes, this is very desirable.
If you want to live a boring life.
If I was married to an alpha woman.. she'd be throwing lamps and dishes at me everyday. Boring sounds pretty good compared to that.0
