Keto questions
Replies
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I had an increase in acne before it improved. I'm not sure of the cause, but my theory is its part of the "clean out" process. I'm much older than you (will be 48 in three days) so experiences can be different. It's probably not hormone related there for you shouldn't experience emotional issues like you would around your monthly cycle (although I don't know where you are in your cycle, to be sure of this).0
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I will notice skin oil more when I am losing more. Some additional breakouts
I asked my Dr and he said when you run on fat, your body does not care if it is dietary or body fat
It s still burning low grade fuel.
I am positive it is not hormone cycle related in my case!
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Ok good to know. Usually when I drink a lot of water and cut out processed carbs my skin clears up so that's what I was thinking. My cycle actually seems late...I don't record the dates so not sure exactly but I was expecting it a week or so ago. Kinda think the acne could have to do with that as well, I often get more right before it.0
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It took a few weeks before my skin cleared up. I noticed after a month. I still get the occasional zit though.0
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Karlotta was that because of the number of calories in the Splenda syrup? Not sure what else would have made you gain.
Anyone get bad moods and/or depression after switching to a keto regimen? I was reading that people with pre-existing depression issues have a hard time with such low carb intake. But I assume after adapting, the body will quite like the MCTs and good fats I'll be constantly giving it - I anticipate both a positive affect from those healthy brain food fats but also the cravings and irritability from ditching the carbs. I've had a long-term struggle with depression so I was a little concerned when I read that.
I am with you on the mental health effects. I got insomnia and got really cranky. It took about two months on keto to start these symptoms. I quit the keto WOE for almost 5 months.
This time around I am going low carb but not so crazy low carb. Hope this works.
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-Do I need to continue mass consumption of electrolytes (e.g. chicken broth, powerade zero etc.) the entire time I'm planning to consume a keto diet or only when I'm converting to keto at the beginning (first few days, first 8 weeks, etc...)?#2 All the time. There is a "goldilocks" amount of electrolytes. For Magnesium, enough to keep your legs from cramping (charlie horse) but not so much that you get diarrhea. Usually this is 400mg day Mag Citrate (other types have different amounts and absorption rates)
Salt and potassium: enough to not feel dizzy, weak. But not so much that you retain water or get dehydrated.
I'm going to have to disagree with DittoDan. Well, we hold different opinions on this, at least. I don't think supplementing electrolytes is likely to be harmful, but I also don't think it's likely to be necessary after adaptation. Once you're past the point of massive water-weight losses, you're not going to be losing tons of electrolytes each day. Your body is also remarkably adept at balancing the amount you're losing to the amount you're taking in, under normal conditions. The initial adaptation period is a bit too much all at once for your body to cope.
After the first month, you can probably safely taper the supplements down until you're off them. Gradually bringing them down will make this effortless and your body will adapt to the reduced amount. As long as you don't have any negatives (like increased cramping), you shouldn't need to supplement. This even goes for salt. I love salt, so I add a lot. But, I know people who never add any.
Actually, the author of the Principia Ketogenica (the definitive collection of research on low-carb and ketogenic diets and someone who eats basically zero carbs) has this to say about salt and electrolyte consumption.
Link to reddit post.Written much about this, and I've spent an entire year avoiding every salt molecule possible and then a year adding salt to everything.
Nothing happened.
Result: Salt to taste.
Maybe there's long term effects that my N=1 won't expose, in the long run I don't think salt is a major factor in anything compared to everything else we deal with.
TL:DR - probably not worth avoiding, but also not worth supplementing unless electrolyte stuff is [bleep]ed. Don't need it, maybe doesn't hurt. Only one thing for sure - makes culinary life better.
Sure, that's one person's experience (although I know a lot of other people with the same experience), but it's pretty strong evidence that supplementation isn't strictly needed.0 -
If you have any medical issues (I just had a thyroidectomy) ask for a check of potassium and magnesium added to every blood draw. I'm thankful my doctor will always oblige. I've been under several times and am currently on RX for each - and I get it checked regularly.
Once I am feeling good, my levels have in the past and I hope in the future, my levels will be good without additional meds. But low potassium and low magnesium can really make you feel like you've been run over by a truck!
I do eat a lot of greens and squash and nuts, and I do Epsom salt baths but I'm STILL low which tells me I really do need those supplements, esp when my body is healing or stressed.0 -
Your body is also remarkably adept at balancing the amount you're losing to the amount you're taking in, under normal conditions. The initial adaptation period is a bit too much all at once for your body to cope.
After the first month, you can probably safely taper the supplements down until you're off them. Gradually bringing them down will make this effortless and your body will adapt to the reduced amount. As long as you don't have any negatives (like increased cramping), you shouldn't need to supplement. This even goes for salt. I love salt, so I add a lot. But, I know people who never add any.
I'll just add that you can't generalize this one unless you understand the mechanisms involved, and I think it's safe to say that most people don't (and that includes me).
Goat is right that the body adapts in some ways. But even after the adaptation period, you can still have issues with sodium, and here's why:
Sodium loss is mostly a function of ketones in the urine.
Ketones in the urine will fluctuate widely. Those who fast (like DittoDan), and those who exercise a bunch (like I did), will generate MEGA ketones, dump a lot in the urine, lose a bunch of sodium, and feel like crap.
The bit about feeling like crap is pretty interesting. AFAICT, it's not really about sodium, but about the resulting low blood volume (which doesn't necessarily mean low blood PRESSURE due to compensation mechanisms).0 -
How much protein is too much? Too much can affect glucose?0
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I have to keep my protein down in the 70-100 gram range to stay in ketosis since some does get converted to glucose. 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fats works OK for me.0
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KeithF6250 wrote: »OK I know it's been a long day for me but where did they get the "perfect humans" to eat?
This!0 -
-Do I need to continue mass consumption of electrolytes (e.g. chicken broth, powerade zero etc.) the entire time I'm planning to consume a keto diet or only when I'm converting to keto at the beginning (first few days, first 8 weeks, etc...)?#2 All the time. There is a "goldilocks" amount of electrolytes. For Magnesium, enough to keep your legs from cramping (charlie horse) but not so much that you get diarrhea. Usually this is 400mg day Mag Citrate (other types have different amounts and absorption rates)
Salt and potassium: enough to not feel dizzy, weak. But not so much that you retain water or get dehydrated.
I'm going to have to disagree with DittoDan. Well, we hold different opinions on this, at least. I don't think supplementing electrolytes is likely to be harmful, but I also don't think it's likely to be necessary after adaptation. Once you're past the point of massive water-weight losses, you're not going to be losing tons of electrolytes each day. Your body is also remarkably adept at balancing the amount you're losing to the amount you're taking in, under normal conditions. The initial adaptation period is a bit too much all at once for your body to cope.
After the first month, you can probably safely taper the supplements down until you're off them. Gradually bringing them down will make this effortless and your body will adapt to the reduced amount. As long as you don't have any negatives (like increased cramping), you shouldn't need to supplement. This even goes for salt. I love salt, so I add a lot. But, I know people who never add any.
Actually, the author of the Principia Ketogenica (the definitive collection of research on low-carb and ketogenic diets and someone who eats basically zero carbs) has this to say about salt and electrolyte consumption.
Link to reddit post.Written much about this, and I've spent an entire year avoiding every salt molecule possible and then a year adding salt to everything.
Nothing happened.
Result: Salt to taste.
Maybe there's long term effects that my N=1 won't expose, in the long run I don't think salt is a major factor in anything compared to everything else we deal with.
TL:DR - probably not worth avoiding, but also not worth supplementing unless electrolyte stuff is [bleep]ed. Don't need it, maybe doesn't hurt. Only one thing for sure - makes culinary life better.
Sure, that's one person's experience (although I know a lot of other people with the same experience), but it's pretty strong evidence that supplementation isn't strictly needed.
Ok, no big deal. I should of wrote that after adaptation, a lesser amount of electrolytes is needed, BUT, more that a person on a SAD diet. Like WAB said, ketone production governs it. And I experientially noticed that if I stop salting my food, I will get dizzy, light headed, seeing stars and lethargic. Pre-keto, I had high blood pressure and my doc told me to lay off the salt, and I did. I NEVER got dizzy, light headed, etc. at that time, so something has changed now that I'm on the Keto diet.
So, again, it's "Goldilocks". Not too much, not to little, let your body speak to you, adjust accordingly.Disclaimer:
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I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
110 pounds down, 14 to go. 12 months 3 weeks on diet
It's Ketogenic or Bariatric Surgery! How I Found the Ketogenic Diet
Previous Discussions on the LCD & Keto Groups
Blog #10 Keto: Abbreviations, Acronyms & Terminology Used on the LCD & Keto Discussion Groups Updated
DittoDan's Keto Sub Groups Blog
Blog #13 DittoDan's Milestone's, First's And Good Changes Since Starting the Ketogenic Diet Updated
DittoDan's Keto Blogs
How I got Off of Diabetic Prescriptions Drugs Since I Started Keto Updated0 -
Your body is also remarkably adept at balancing the amount you're losing to the amount you're taking in, under normal conditions. The initial adaptation period is a bit too much all at once for your body to cope.
After the first month, you can probably safely taper the supplements down until you're off them. Gradually bringing them down will make this effortless and your body will adapt to the reduced amount. As long as you don't have any negatives (like increased cramping), you shouldn't need to supplement. This even goes for salt. I love salt, so I add a lot. But, I know people who never add any.
I'll just add that you can't generalize this one unless you understand the mechanisms involved, and I think it's safe to say that most people don't (and that includes me).
Goat is right that the body adapts in some ways. But even after the adaptation period, you can still have issues with sodium, and here's why:
Sodium loss is mostly a function of ketones in the urine.
Ketones in the urine will fluctuate widely. Those who fast (like DittoDan), and those who exercise a bunch (like I did), will generate MEGA ketones, dump a lot in the urine, lose a bunch of sodium, and feel like crap.
The bit about feeling like crap is pretty interesting. AFAICT, it's not really about sodium, but about the resulting low blood volume (which doesn't necessarily mean low blood PRESSURE due to compensation mechanisms).
That's interesting, maybe that's what's happening to me? I don't know the mechanics, but that it happens to me. What your saying sounds plausible. I think the next time that happens to me, I'll check my blood pressure. I have a portable meter. I'll let you know what happens...
Thank you...
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
110 pounds down, 14 to go. 12 months 3 weeks on diet
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I'll check my blood pressure.
Blood pressure is another fascinating topic.
The body maintains very tight control over sodium concentration in the blood.
That means that when sodium levels are low, we dump water to increase sodium concentration in the blood, and that lowers blood VOLUME.
The body also tries to maintain blood PRESSURE even when VOLUME drops, and it does that by constricting blood vessels.
It sort of works, but we end up with a compromised system. With the lower blood volume, there's not as much leeway to adapt to changing requirements, like when you suddenly stand up or when you exercise. And we feel lightheaded or fatigued.
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Now, now, I did say most people could probably taper off the supplements without concern. I also suggested that if they're experiencing negatives, they shouldn't continue to taper them off. I think most people don't need them. Maybe people doing extreme amounts of exercise, pushing for high ketone levels, or who have some other condition that increases their needs will need to continue perpetually.
We may have to agree to disagree about the requirements for it. Everyone should do what makes them feel best.0 -
I'll check my blood pressure.
Blood pressure is another fascinating topic.
The body maintains very tight control over sodium concentration in the blood.
That means that when sodium levels are low, we dump water to increase sodium concentration in the blood, and that lowers blood VOLUME.
The body also tries to maintain blood PRESSURE even when VOLUME drops, and it does that by constricting blood vessels.
It sort of works, but we end up with a compromised system. With the lower blood volume, there's not as much leeway to adapt to changing requirements, like when you suddenly stand up or when you exercise. And we feel lightheaded or fatigued.
Blood pressure is an interesting topic I need to learn more about. I can't get my balance correct, I have naturally low blood pressure and oddly when I'm stressed it drops even lower, which is opposite of most people's response. When I stand up even when not doing keto the room goes black for a second then comes back. So when I'm keto it drops even lower and when I stand up it takes longer to regain normal. I'm a salt fiend all my life I have been, I crave it and will eat it plain at times. I'd love to understand that more.0 -
Goat, the problem with waiting until you experience symptoms is that the body goes through some extreme measures before you get to that point.
For example, if blood volume is too low to maintain sodium concentration, that's when we start dumping potassium, and that can get you into real trouble because the potassium comes from cells, not blood. So eventually you end up deficient in multiple electrolytes and minerals if you ignore the simple advice to add salt.0 -
Ok I get the feeling low and being ravenous at night, adding to this are some intense carb fantasies. I go the whole day being cool without carbs, I might feel slightly weird from time to time and get pretty hungry out of nowhere before I eat my lunch...but overall it's ok until night. A couple nights ago I was super hyper at 1 am and then totally crashed, like didn't want to get off the couch to make my avocado drained. Then I just wanted honey nut Cheerios really badly and pouted about it for awhile. Last night I couldn't stop imagining eating Shipley's glazed donuts until I was full, or a Tiff's treats sandwich with snicker doodles smothered in ice cream...it's bad enough that if any of that stuff was around it'd be pretty hard to resist. So I eat my fatty foods and meats but am still hungry, quite possibly go over ideal protein amount but I don't care because I'm just trying not to think about donuts. But I wake up fine, not really hungry, can even go 2-4 hrs without eating, not really craving carbs. It's kinda weird. I was gonna ask before if it's normal to just suddenly get hungry (I'm on Day 6 eating 20 g net carbs). But it's definitely been weird the last few nights.0
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The vast majority of people should have no issues at all, though. So, I err on the side of simplicity and ease. I will never promote "just in case" supplementation. I believe most people make this way of eating seem way more complicated and hazardous than it actually is or needs to be. People have eaten like this long before we had all these things to keep track of.0
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Ok I get the feeling low and being ravenous at night, adding to this are some intense carb fantasies. I go the whole day being cool without carbs, I might feel slightly weird from time to time and get pretty hungry out of nowhere before I eat my lunch...but overall it's ok until night. A couple nights ago I was super hyper at 1 am and then totally crashed, like didn't want to get off the couch to make my avocado drained. Then I just wanted honey nut Cheerios really badly and pouted about it for awhile. Last night I couldn't stop imagining eating Shipley's glazed donuts until I was full, or a Tiff's treats sandwich with snicker doodles smothered in ice cream...it's bad enough that if any of that stuff was around it'd be pretty hard to resist. So I eat my fatty foods and meats but am still hungry, quite possibly go over ideal protein amount but I don't care because I'm just trying not to think about donuts. But I wake up fine, not really hungry, can even go 2-4 hrs without eating, not really craving carbs. It's kinda weird. I was gonna ask before if it's normal to just suddenly get hungry (I'm on Day 6 eating 20 g net carbs). But it's definitely been weird the last few nights.
Sometimes I have days that I'm just hungry all day. Not very often, but I did just have one yesterday. So I ate. I figured there's a reason my body wants me to eat today. I stayed on plan though. My protein was higher than normal, but not a problem. Some days it's higher, some days it's lower. I didn't eat so much that I didn't have a deficit, but if I felt that I needed more, I probably would've went with it. My appetite is usually very much under control and I have no issues eating at a decent deficit. So if I'm more hungry sometimes, I allow it.
I felt like I was starving yesterday afternoon even though a had already eaten so I fried some nugget sized, chicken in bacon grease, topped it with Monterey cheese and half a piece of bacon. They were the best "chicken nuggets" EVER! 0 -
People have eaten like this long before we had all these things to keep track of.
Good point. Most people don't consider sodium to be a "supplement" -- just something we eat. So if we need it, how did we get it in the past?
Maybe by chewing on bark?
http://www.livescience.com/4120-mystery-solved-gorillas-eat-rotting-wood.html
After observing mountain gorillas in Uganda for nearly a year, scientists believe they have discovered why the animals eat decayed wood and lick tree stumps, behaviors that have puzzled primate researchers for decades.
The answer: for the sodium.
Phinney speculates that we used to get it by drinking the blood of our kills.
So if you're not drinking blood, and you're not eating bark, maybe some broth would be a good idea after peeing out a bunch of ketones.
Since waiting until you have symptoms might be too late, just salt to taste. We should crave salt if we need it. Even if you don't crave it, if it still tastes good to you, that probably means you need it.0 -
A few years ago we got 4 mini horses for the daughter. I noticed one mare was licking the ground where I expect the owner had put block salt at one point. We put out a salt/mineral block when we got them home. She licked on it for three days. I was concerned but just counted on nature getting it right.
After the three days she did not go to the salt block more than the rest. She was like 18 years old and knew what she needed and how much she needed by some means. I am not sure we are that connected with our needs that well. 0 -
weigh over my head. The acronyms alone is hard to figure out. WOE, YMMV, ???. I stick to 60 grams or less a day per my doc and nutritionist. Have a great day0
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I was gonna ask before if it's normal to just suddenly get hungry (I'm on Day 6 eating 20 g net carbs). But it's definitely been weird the last few nights.
My personal standard advice for new folks (and I've seen a bunch of others say the same thing) is for the first couple weeks to really, really not worry about calories at all. Just eat low carb foods, and eat whenever you're hungry, even if it seems like you're eating all the time or eating a ridiculous amount early on. It *really* helps with what can be wild, intense cravings for some folks, and it will settle down.0 -
@Batlady49 , the abbreviations can be explained in the Launch Pad. We use many here, some I'm still not sure of, like YMMV, but WOE is way of eating. Just for reference, wol is way of life. We will get it! Hang in there, and 60 grams of carbs is great!
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I think YMMV is your mileage may vary ie different strokes for different folks.0
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TY!! I'm so technologically challenged! My brain doesn't work this way.. I've never been able to even figure out ink blots. Sorry OP for butting in! 0
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Ok I get the feeling low and being ravenous at night, adding to this are some intense carb fantasies. I go the whole day being cool without carbs, I might feel slightly weird from time to time and get pretty hungry out of nowhere before I eat my lunch...but overall it's ok until night. A couple nights ago I was super hyper at 1 am and then totally crashed, like didn't want to get off the couch to make my avocado drained. Then I just wanted honey nut Cheerios really badly and pouted about it for awhile. Last night I couldn't stop imagining eating Shipley's glazed donuts until I was full, or a Tiff's treats sandwich with snicker doodles smothered in ice cream...it's bad enough that if any of that stuff was around it'd be pretty hard to resist. So I eat my fatty foods and meats but am still hungry, quite possibly go over ideal protein amount but I don't care because I'm just trying not to think about donuts. But I wake up fine, not really hungry, can even go 2-4 hrs without eating, not really craving carbs. It's kinda weird. I was gonna ask before if it's normal to just suddenly get hungry (I'm on Day 6 eating 20 g net carbs). But it's definitely been weird the last few nights.
I have Carbmares sometimes. Carb nightmares. Like I'm eating and enjoying a warm giant choc chip cookie covered in ice cream, whipped cream, hot fudge and caramel, and I'm 3/4 the way through it in food-heaven and then I realize I just kicked myself out of ketosis. I freak out. I stop eating it. I wake up stressed as hell. Thankfully I haven't had one of those in awhile.
Night time is my witching-hour as well. If I get a major craving that won't quit, it's usually at night, and I make a low-carb snack or a low-carb imitation sweet like the one I want. It usually works for me. However, the craving should subside soon if you are sticking to plan, looking out for sneaky hidden carbs, and get enough fat.
Lately though, since I'm still trying to nix the last 8lb and I'm restricting calories, I get the munchies in the evening before bed and I just chew sugar-free gum to keep food out of my mouth until I go upstairs after putting the kids to bed. It aggravates the TMJ but it's been working.0 -
Whenever you wonder about whether something you're experiencing is normal -- particularly if it's in the first month or two -- have a look at the Whole 30 Timeline. It's technically for the Whole 30, but the effects of it and the effects of LCHF are nearly identical (since Whole 30 drops a large portion of carbs out of the picture, too).
The carb dreams? Yep, they're in there (day 12-15 in the timeline).
http://whole30.com/2013/08/revised-timeline/
Also, I agree with the other person who mentioned that if you're just starting out, don't worry about calories. Just eat low carb foods when you're hungry. It may seem like a lot, but believe it or not, it's often actually not much more than what should be your maintenance amount (and often not even that). Even if it is, your body is bringing the fat burning "machinery" back online and "upgrading" for more full-time use (since it's likely pretty atrophied after decades of a 60%+ carbohydrate diet), so that extra energy is going to building/rebuilding stuff, and not so much to storage. It will level out after a couple of weeks.0 -
baconslave wrote: »I have Carbmares sometimes. Carb nightmares.
Wow. New vocabulary word.
Kind of awesome and kind of scary!
Love this place!
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