The Obesity Code and Radical Acceptance
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*Very* insightful post! And yes, you absolutely need to be mindful of self-care, too, in your healing process.0
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Roseygirl1 wrote: »Wow, I'm pretty happy right now! I just did my first blood sugar monitoring, and my 2 hour post-dinner blood sugar was 98! This on a day when my total calories were about 1200, net carbs 20, and pretty much a 4 hour eating window. AND I'M NOT HUNGRY!!!!! This is a fabulous start and very encouraging. Thank you everybody for all the great suggestions!
Rosey
That's awesome. And thank you for starting this thread. It resonates so deeply with my own instincts when I started reading up, following through on conclusions and started doing keto and IF. I mean, it made so much sense, and I felt so lousy, hardly being able to get to work, tired all the time, and a worrying talk with an endocrinologist, who I visited for something else entirely, but who looked over my bloodwork and warned me in no uncertain terms of the consequences of what she saw.
So, healing my body was really on the agenda, weight loss not so much, but I figured that would come if I healed my metabolism. And I must say, the process is a very powerful and pretty fast one if you take into account that it had taken my body decades to get to the state it was in. And I reversed a lot of that damage in a year.
Again, thank you for bringing this up and blessings on your journey towards health.7 -
Thank you for starting this thread, Roseygirl1. I appreciated your and others' thoughtful comments to the point of purchasing the Kindle version of Obesity Code and reading it, hoping to find a new approach to the obesity problem. However, I found the book mostly unhelpful and incredibly discouraging. If you are discouraged as well, I want to offer my take on a few of his thoughts:
Helpful
-- “However, moderate consumption of red wine does not raise insulin or impair insulin sensitivity, and therefore may be enjoyed. 16 Up to two glasses a day is not associated with major weight gain17 and may improve insulin sensitivity. 18 The alcohol itself, even from beer, seems to have minimal effects on insulin secretion or insulin resistance. It is sometimes said that you get fat from the foods you eat with the alcohol rather than from the alcohol itself. There may be some truth to that, although the evidence is sparse.”
-- His drawing attention to Cortisol and stress as possible causes of weight gain. That would explain my unexplained weight gain in the first 6 months of 2010.
Unhelpful
-- He mentions that he grew up in the 1970s. I have no idea how he got the idea that snacking began in that decade.
“LET’S TURN BACK the clock to the U.S. in the 1960s. Food shortages from the war are a thing of the past. Obesity is not yet a major issue. Why not? After all, they ate Oreo cookies, KitKats, white bread and pasta. They ate sugar, although not quite as much. They also ate three meals per day, with no snacks in between.”
I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s. We did plenty of snacking. My kindergarten served a snack of Oreos and milk every single day. Every day of my 12 years of grade school and upon my arrival home from school, my mother would have milk or lemonade or sweet iced tea ready, along with cookies or other dessert-type snack. We were not unusual.
-- Throughout the book, he implies that his 2-pronged approach to dieting will solve the problem of the plateau. However, at location 4145 (about 65% of the way through the book), he says:
“You’ll probably eventually experience a weight-loss plateau. Changing either your fasting or dietary regimen, or both, may help. Some patients increase fasting from twenty-four-hour periods to thirty-six-hour periods, or try a forty-eight-hour fast. Some may try eating only once a day, every day. Others may try a continuous fast for an entire week. Changing the fasting protocol is often what’s required to break through a plateau.”
This is the same type of advice that other authors give for breaking through a plateau, “Changing either your fasting or dietary regimen, or both…” Where is his breakthrough?
-- He states that, “all foods raise insulin to some degree” and “If all foods raise insulin, then the only way for us to lower it is to completely abstain from food.” I am willing to consider Intermittent Fasting, but in my mind he has not supported his case. I find the book Protein Power by the Eades to be a more carefully and scientifically supported book. In Protein Power, the Eades state, “Fat doesn’t do anything; as far as insulin is concerned, fat doesn’t exist.” Dr. Atkins, too, uses what he calls the “fat fast” to break a plateau… eat only fat for a while because fat doesn’t raise insulin levels.
-- I found his statement regarding plateaus to be incredibly discouraging, “… All diets… by six to twelve months, weight loss plateaus, followed by a relentless regain, despite continued dietary compliance.” I had to pull out my copy of the book Thin for Life by Fletcher to restore my belief that I can lose weight and keep it off.
Roseygirl1, you invited thoughtful comments, and I am sorry that mine were thoughtful but a bit negative. I am posting my thoughts to help any who may have been discouraged by the book as I was.
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All foods do raise insulin, but fat is so insignificant it's not much of a stretch to say it "does nothing" and protein can raise insulin significantly in someone with insulin resistance. His main approach is fasting. So it makes absolute sense that he's considering even the tiny insulin responses from fat and potentially higher response from protein. The other plans @janettles is mentioning aren't fasting plans. The idea in those is only significant carb restriction. Fasting is much more than just carb restriction.
I don't really understand the comparison... this book is just discussing another way. Fasting is known to bring on very dramatic and quick improvement of insulin resistance. I don't believe either of the other books are targeting that exact issue.2 -
After reading this book 3 months ago, I followed his advice and have lost 20 pounds (now 159), normalized my sugar levels, dropped 2 meds, and am feeling great. I look forward to the next 15 pound loss when I will achieve a long awaited goal of 145 pounds. The light is at the end of the tunnel of over 40 years of insulin sensitivity that culminated in type 2 diabetes cerca 2002.
Needed to add:
Everyone grew up differently. In Brooklyn, in the 60's. My after school snack was an apple. No cookies were allowed since my grandmother, who looked after me was diabetic. On the other hand, she gave me 15 cents on the weekends when I played outside, to get ice cream from the Good Humor Man. She thought ice cream was a healthy snack since it contained wholesome milk and cream. God bless her.5 -
Hi Sunny_Bunny_. I appreciate your comments. Since Dr Fung bases his views of fasting on his belief that all foods raise insulin, I mentioned the books by Eades and Atkins to support another view of whether all foods raise insulin, not to promote their diets or views of fasting. My best to you.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »All foods do raise insulin, but fat is so insignificant it's not much of a stretch to say it "does nothing" and protein can raise insulin significantly in someone with insulin resistance. His main approach is fasting. So it makes absolute sense that he's considering even the tiny insulin responses from fat and potentially higher response from protein. The other plans @janettles is mentioning aren't fasting plans. The idea in those is only significant carb restriction. Fasting is much more than just carb restriction.
I don't really understand the comparison... this book is just discussing another way. Fasting is known to bring on very dramatic and quick improvement of insulin resistance. I don't believe either of the other books are targeting that exact issue.2 -
@Aquawave I also grew up in Brooklyn during the 60's/70's. I was never allowed to snack; mom's rule was "it will spoil your dinner." I suspect she was on a strict budget as well. I think snacking/non-snacking is more a question of upbringing/family life than anything else. I have listened to a few of Dr. Fung's lectures, but have not read his book. As mentioned numerous times in these discussions do what works best for your body. Is there a high rate of regaining the weight back after dieting, yes, but that is because individuals have a tendency to view their lifestyle as either dieting or not dieting. I think it works best to think in terms of a way of eating rather than something you are either on or off.5
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Hi Sunny_Bunny_. I appreciate your comments. Since Dr Fung bases his views of fasting on his belief that all foods raise insulin, I mentioned the books by Eades and Atkins to support another view of whether all foods raise insulin, not to promote their diets or views of fasting. My best to you.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »All foods do raise insulin, but fat is so insignificant it's not much of a stretch to say it "does nothing" and protein can raise insulin significantly in someone with insulin resistance. His main approach is fasting. So it makes absolute sense that he's considering even the tiny insulin responses from fat and potentially higher response from protein. The other plans @janettles is mentioning aren't fasting plans. The idea in those is only significant carb restriction. Fasting is much more than just carb restriction.
I don't really understand the comparison... this book is just discussing another way. Fasting is known to bring on very dramatic and quick improvement of insulin resistance. I don't believe either of the other books are targeting that exact issue.
I know what you're saying. My only point is that the tiny amount that fat produces an insulin response is so insignificant that it doesn't make any difference at all on a carb restricted diet. However, it can matter on a fast.
So, when the others say it doesn't create an insulin response, it's not that it literally doesn't at all, it's that it's so insignificant that it doesn't matter.
But fasting is different. You will even see this come up when talking about fat fasting or drinking bulletproof coffee while fasting. Many don't consider those fasts at all and technically they're not. But since only fat is consumed, it mimicks fasting well enough to be beneficial. Then you get debate about weather or not adding cream breaks the fast because of the protein and lactose. Because even in very small amounts, it does matter when it comes to fasting.2 -
I do appreciate all the comments! I'm just starting to do my work and research, and ultimately, I am focused on my own body and its reactions. I have no intention (at this point) of embarking on true 24 or 36 hour fasts. Because I have been through so much medically and stress-wise, my guiding star for my own choices is "disciplined kindness." That means providing my body with loving, healing actions.
Sunny Bunny, I, too, felt that tinge of discouragement in reading Dr. Fung, and that's what spurred me to take on eating less frequently. This first week of experimentation has been illuminating for me. I am discovering just how little food I actually need (compared to how much I was eating before.) I can clearly feel how blood sugar surges from excess carbs drove my eating. This past week, with 20 gms. net carbs, the beast of raging hunger has really muted.
In fact, since I am paying loving attention, I am having to look for hunger signals. Once, my stomach growled, and I was thrilled! Another time, getting irritable was a good signal. I feel like I am embarking on a love affair with my body. Paying deep attention, tenderly feeding myself with healing foods, lowering myself into an epsom salt bath for a dose of magnesium---all with the intention of exquisite care.
One thing I know is that we must believe we can be successful in order to be successful, and what *I* took from the Fung book that was useful was allowing myself to go longer periods without nibbling, and *gasp* even skipping meals. So far, this has felt good in the body. It's funny, when I realize how little I am eating, and how little hunger I feel, I imagine my numerous fat cells like good buddies, doing what they are meant to do, which is feed me when food isn't needed. (I don't like the word "starve": I am not starving, nor am I dieting. I am allowing my body to reach its equilibrium and natural, healthy weight by providing the proper environment and stimuli)
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Thank you for offering these points to consider, Sunny_Bunny_. I also very much appreciate the loving and intelligent tone that Roseygirl1 has set for the consideration of this topic.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
Hi Sunny_Bunny_. I appreciate your comments. Since Dr Fung bases his views of fasting on his belief that all foods raise insulin, I mentioned the books by Eades and Atkins to support another view of whether all foods raise insulin, not to promote their diets or views of fasting. My best to you.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »All foods do raise insulin, but fat is so insignificant it's not much of a stretch to say it "does nothing" and protein can raise insulin significantly in someone with insulin resistance. His main approach is fasting. So it makes absolute sense that he's considering even the tiny insulin responses from fat and potentially higher response from protein. The other plans @janettles is mentioning aren't fasting plans. The idea in those is only significant carb restriction. Fasting is much more than just carb restriction.
I don't really understand the comparison... this book is just discussing another way. Fasting is known to bring on very dramatic and quick improvement of insulin resistance. I don't believe either of the other books are targeting that exact issue.
I know what you're saying. My only point is that the tiny amount that fat produces an insulin response is so insignificant that it doesn't make any difference at all on a carb restricted diet. However, it can matter on a fast.
So, when the others say it doesn't create an insulin response, it's not that it literally doesn't at all, it's that it's so insignificant that it doesn't matter.
But fasting is different. You will even see this come up when talking about fat fasting or drinking bulletproof coffee while fasting. Many don't consider those fasts at all and technically they're not. But since only fat is consumed, it mimicks fasting well enough to be beneficial. Then you get debate about weather or not adding cream breaks the fast because of the protein and lactose. Because even in very small amounts, it does matter when it comes to fasting.3 -
I'm heading out the door now for my first 30 min. session of personal training. I'm hoping I can communicate my goals of just slowly building strength. I must admit, I'm afraid of getting hurt. Wish me luck!6
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Roseygirl1 wrote: »I am discovering just how little food I actually need (compared to how much I was eating before.)
Love it. Great discovery.4 -
(...) However, I found the book mostly unhelpful and incredibly discouraging. If you are discouraged as well, I want to offer my take on a few of his thoughts:
Helpful
-- “However, moderate consumption of red wine does not raise insulin or impair insulin sensitivity, and therefore may be enjoyed. 16 Up to two glasses a day is not associated with major weight gain17 and may improve insulin sensitivity. 18 The alcohol itself, even from beer, seems to have minimal effects on insulin secretion or insulin resistance. It is sometimes said that you get fat from the foods you eat with the alcohol rather than from the alcohol itself. There may be some truth to that, although the evidence is sparse.”
If your main goal is to lose weight, I have bad news for you concerning alcohol. The body perceives ethanol as poison. So while the body is busy metabolizing alcohol intake, it won't burn fat from storage.Unhelpful
-- He mentions that he grew up in the 1970s. I have no idea how he got the idea that snacking began in that decade.
I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s. We did plenty of snacking. My kindergarten served a snack of Oreos and milk every single day.
This is your experience. In my country people weren't snacking much up until the last decade or so. I don't see how this invalidates his book full of references to studies backing up his main point: Insulin is a driver of weight gain.-- He states that, “all foods raise insulin to some degree” and “If all foods raise insulin, then the only way for us to lower it is to completely abstain from food.” (...) but in my mind he has not supported his case. (...)
-- I found his statement regarding plateaus to be incredibly discouraging (...)
All diets plans end and then life begins. If you keep thinking about dieting as just a phase, then you'll keep on getting discouraged and unhappy. This is exactly the gist OP is talking about, IMO: That eating for health and general wellbeing is a much more valuable prize than losing and regaining weight. People IRL keep asking me how I lost the weight and also how I'm maintaining "so easily". I smile and say "it's hard work, but it works for me". If they're really interested to know more, I'll provide more details, but most instantly recognize they probably aren't willing to go there. We each have to find our own way of how to life our lives.
Hi Sunny_Bunny_. I appreciate your comments. Since Dr Fung bases his views of fasting on his belief that all foods raise insulin, I mentioned the books by Eades and Atkins to support another view of whether all foods raise insulin, not to promote their diets or views of fasting. My best to you.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »All foods do raise insulin, but fat is so insignificant it's not much of a stretch to say it "does nothing" and protein can raise insulin significantly in someone with insulin resistance. His main approach is fasting. So it makes absolute sense that he's considering even the tiny insulin responses from fat and potentially higher response from protein. The other plans @janettles is mentioning aren't fasting plans. The idea in those is only significant carb restriction. Fasting is much more than just carb restriction.
I don't really understand the comparison... this book is just discussing another way. Fasting is known to bring on very dramatic and quick improvement of insulin resistance. I don't believe either of the other books are targeting that exact issue.
It's not Dr. Fung's "belief". It's a metabolic fact that some food types raise insulin more than others. To my knowledge it's referenced in Phinney and Volek's "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living": As we all know processed carbs raise insulin the most, but some proteins can raise insulin up to 58% and fat is 10%. (Whey isolate is one of the worst). For people with metabolic syndrome, the basal insulin level is already constantly high. Any food will add even more insulin on top of that. If someone keeps eating and snacking all the time, there is no time for the insulin to go down. High insulin prevents the body from UNLOCKING fat from adipose tissue (lipolysis). I will say that I don't agree with everything Dr. Fung says. No-one is right all the time
Dr. Jason Fung - 'Therapeutic Fasting - Solving the Two-Compartment Problem'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk
Please remember that most of Dr. Fung's patients are the already very ill, often morbidly obese people. The people with years of Diabetes Mellitus and many boluses of insulin. The people on kidney dialysis. The desperate. You may not be that desperate. His methods may or may not apply to you.
Another approach than fasting is to try eat according to Marty Kendall's insulin index:
https://optimisingnutrition.com/the-insulin-index/
In the 2ketodudes's podcast (shoutout to whoever tipped us about that! great podcast!):
Not sure if it was the diabetes or insulin episode, but if I remember correctly a study showed that in a normal metabolism the body reduces insulin 3 hours post-prandial (PP), but it ONLY lowers to basal level after 10 hours!!! By the time people have eaten and absorbed dinner, it's only a couple of hours of prime time fat burning before breakfast. Most people go into ketosis during the late stage of sleep. Could it be this is why most of use actually burn the most from storage fat during sleep ?
Type2Diabetes
http://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=8
Insulin
http://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=3
This is why I consistently talk about "fat loss" rather than "weight loss". Because at the end of the day, you want to lose fat from STORED fat, not just keep burning easy available energy in the bloodstream that happens to be floating around. In other words, if you keep eating very often, the body will choose the easiest option: that is to burn the glucose in blood, mobilize glycogen from liver and muscle AND only after all of this...the body has no other choice but to burn some from your bum. For most members of MFP, this is called "a caloric deficit".
I wish you the best on your journey.
Edit: some minor typos, formatting and words. Not meanings.5 -
I think I might continue to share my experiences and experiments here in this thread, since my metabolic status is the driving force behind those experiments. Hopefully, this will help others in my position.
So here's the quick and dirty on the start point for me: 61 years old, autoimmune disease, thyroid cancer (on levothyroxine hormone replacement), cervical spine fusions from C3 to C7, post-Lyme disease, ongoing significant stressors---aging parents and special needs adult children.
Got a pre-diabetes diagnosis, at 61, at annual physical, not that it should have been a surprise given my big belly. My diet wasn't bad by SAD standards, but bread and potatoes were regular residents of my plate, sugary "comfort" foods too-frequent visitors, and just eating too much and too often contributed to my condition, along with stress.
I read fast. So I've read THE OBESITY CODE, the new Atkins book, THE BIG FAT LIE so far, along with working my way through the links on the launch page here, and others sent to me privately. This information-gathering has led me to make the following changes:
1. I set my carbs to work out to about 20 net carbs----that means the total carb count minus the fiber grams.
2. While I will not go white-knuckle hungry (like I felt in my WW days), I do aim to decrease how often I eat in a day, and how long my overnight fast is. So far, a week in, this is working out well, I do not eat past 7pm, I drink black coffee in the morning, and I let my hunger guide me as to when to break my fast. This usually turns out to be around 11am to 1pm, a 16 to 18 hour overnight fast.
3. I bought a glucose meter, and I am testing my blood sugar (in a random, unsystematic way) to see what's happening there. My fasting blood sugar from the lab was 104 mg%, and at home, this past week, it's been going down every morning. This morning (Day 8 of LCHF) it's 84mg%.
4. I have begun slowly and carefully working on getting stronger with a personal trainer 30 min. twice a week.
5. I added Vit. D, a multivitamin, and magnesium oil (topical) to my daily do. (My vit. d level doc tested was only just at the minimum level above deficient.)
6. I make sure to have homemade bone broth available.
So far, I feel pretty good. I have surges of energy that are really startling, and I've had only a couple of episodes of "hitting the wall" and needing either salty bone broth or food.
The best thing about all this is that I am developing a new confidence in my body. I feel that I am working *with* my body instead of against it. I imagine my stuffed fat cells gracefully feeding me since I've called on them to supply energy and they are now my friends.
So far, so good.
Rosey18 -
Brava!
I'd like a case of your sparkling, refreshing attitude. (Happy to pay full price.)6 -
Good luck, Rosey.0
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Last night, my husband and I had dinner with my parents at their independent living facility. They eat dinner in a very nice dining room. I had a small salad with olive oil and vinegar, 4 oz. of corned beef, and about 2 cups of cooked cabbage. I had planned for a small serving of Fiber One cereal and almond milk (1/2 c. each) at home afterward, all within my carb and calorie budget.
But it turned out to be a very anxiety-provoking evening. After dinner, we needed to talk about my parents' final wishes----they mentioned a while back wanting to change which cemetery to lie in final rest. It's complicated, involving potentially moving the remains of my sister from a cemetery in NJ to the one near where we all live now in NYS. Then my parents asked me all kinds of questions about how children are doing, with the implication that there is more I can or should be doing for them. (There isn't.)
So I came home and had twice as much cereal and almond milk as I intended, plus a hunk of cheddar cheese. It was, in emotional tone, a binge. I was very anxious and angry at having been made anxious. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to sleep. So I turned on the TV (watched Major Crimes, not exactly soothing) and ate. I was in the binge (small as it was) before I had a chance to consider other actions.
At age 61, I would like to dance with this old, old behavior in such a way as to evolve. It's a spiritual issue for me. Framing it so, I can invite myself to notice when I am triggered and to find other, kinder means of responding. A cup of hot tea, a magnesium bath, meditation, journal writing----a timeout to be with myself and be kind. It's been a long time since I had a binge, and I was unprepared for it. The stresses are only going to continue as my parents age, and one of them is left behind and my children's needs are ongoing. So the only thing I *can* control is how I respond to these stresses.
Tonight is my first low carb dinner party, two other couples will be joining my husband and me. I'm planning a cheese board, raw veggies, almonds and olives for appetizers; marinated grilled sliced pork; grilled mushrooms, and sauteed spinach with pine nuts. Someone is bringing a cake---it's an anniversary celebration for a friend---and I will take a piece and poke at it with my fork to avoid any questions and not call attention to myself at a celebratory moment.
Oh, and I choose to partake of one glass of red wine, understanding this is not a low carb choice. I'm doing the diet in order to live, and once in a while, a glass of red wine makes a life worth living!
Rosey
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Binges happen. As binges go, it didn't sound too bad. I'm sure it helped writing about it this morning. You have been making some wonderful changes in your life. I love how you have decided to be gentle with yourself. Keep on with your plan and don't be too hard on yourself about the binge.
Because you mentioned it earlier, I have been reading The Obesity Code and have found it to be very interesting.
Good luck with your cake poking!!!
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Been there Miss Rosie. The aging parents. The difficult subjects and decisions. The assisted living environment with two parents who made the choice to be there when they were both diagnosed with terminal cancer the same freaking week in April of 2006. The decision maker. The POA. The Executrix. Even the bit about the deceased sister and cemetery plot arrangements. 9 years later, your post has me in tears. Oh, the sadness. Forgive your binge. Stay mindful. Be kind to yourself. You are carrying a huge load. 6 -
Been there Miss Rosie. The aging parents. The difficult subjects and decisions. The assisted living environment with two parents who made the choice to be there when they were both diagnosed with terminal cancer the same freaking week in April of 2006. The decision maker. The POA. The Executrix. Even the bit about the deceased sister and cemetery plot arrangements. 9 years later, your post has me in tears. Oh, the sadness. Forgive your binge. Stay mindful. Be kind to yourself. You are carrying a huge load.
Thank you for this. I'm sorry you had that path to walk, but know that your compassion comforted another soul today.
Rosey2
