Ad Libitum August '18
Options
FIT_Goat
Posts: 4,224 Member
I hereby renounce calorie restriction, once again. For the month of August, I urge the brave to join me. Restrict only your carbs. Let go of calories and the other macros.
I have included the relevant bits of my argument against counting calories below. That way you can understand why I encourage this. We did this in rhe past, and it shocked several participants when the results were better than expected. It has been a while, and I am bringing it back.
One of the original goals, when we cleaned up the group, was to define the place of calories and calorie counting in regards to low-carb. Given that this is MFP, you'll find a lot of people stress counting calories. It's the nature of the beast. If you wish to count calories or believe that not counting will/does not work for you, then continue to count them. Certainly counting calories doesn't stop low-carb from working. When people ask for help setting their macros, even I ask what their calorie goals are.
With that said, I (Goat) am going to go the path of "Low Carb Bigotry" and state that counting calories is not part of a low carb diet. You do not need to track anything except carbs. If you keep the carbs low, your calories will take care of themselves.
I openly discourage counting calories and tracking (except where tracking helps you discover the cumulative amount of carbs you're really eating). I tell new people this all the time. I know most ignore it and won't give it a couple months to see for themselves. But, I wish they would. What's the worst that will happen? You might not lose weight for those months? You might gain a little weight? How much will it really set you back? You can always go back to counting calories if it doesn't work for you. It's hard, once you have trained yourself to worry about the calories, to go the other way and start ignoring them.
Switching to low-carb is hard enough on your body without providing it with all the fuel it asks for. Trust your body. Let it adapt before you try and put another stress (calorie restriction) on it. Chances are that it will automatically reduce your calories when it is ready, because you have so much excess stored in body fat.
Let's go through the various low-carb plans and see how they approach calorie counting:
I have ranted on this several times in the past:
There are several books you can read:
Off the top of my head, this is all I've got. I may add more later. Eventually, I intend to link to this from the launchpad... unless the other group leaders adamantly refuse to allow such heresy to be part of that.
One member was concerned about undereating and asked what I thought of that. This was the response.
Short term, I would agree with that. Just be willing and prepared for the possibility of a big feast day. I've known people who would do around those levels the first week or so and then suddenly be starving (and they'd eat... a lot... a lot, a lot... talking 4k+ calories). Usually, hunger will normalize around a point that works for your body. If you're eating that low, I'd probably focus on high protein foods first, before the fats. Add as much fat as you feel like you can stomach... but decide the amount of meat you want before you do (like... "I want that big of a steak right now" not "I want 45g of protein at this meal").
If you find yourself craving a bit more fat, eat it. If you want less fat, eat a little leaner cut of meat.
I really doubt you'll want to maintain extremely low for very long. But, the initial switch is well known to cause extreme loss of hunger. Just listen to what you want.
Don't panic if you have a 5k calorie day. It will be ok. You won't have undone your work. Your body is just rebooting.
While under-eating is probably a larger concern than over-eating (as hypercaloric intake seems to be a relatively well handled thing with low carb) because you could lose muscle mass, I wouldn't worry unless it becomes a constant. Your appetite should pick up after a while. Just don't ignore it when it happens and you'll be fine.
I have included the relevant bits of my argument against counting calories below. That way you can understand why I encourage this. We did this in rhe past, and it shocked several participants when the results were better than expected. It has been a while, and I am bringing it back.
One of the original goals, when we cleaned up the group, was to define the place of calories and calorie counting in regards to low-carb. Given that this is MFP, you'll find a lot of people stress counting calories. It's the nature of the beast. If you wish to count calories or believe that not counting will/does not work for you, then continue to count them. Certainly counting calories doesn't stop low-carb from working. When people ask for help setting their macros, even I ask what their calorie goals are.
With that said, I (Goat) am going to go the path of "Low Carb Bigotry" and state that counting calories is not part of a low carb diet. You do not need to track anything except carbs. If you keep the carbs low, your calories will take care of themselves.
I openly discourage counting calories and tracking (except where tracking helps you discover the cumulative amount of carbs you're really eating). I tell new people this all the time. I know most ignore it and won't give it a couple months to see for themselves. But, I wish they would. What's the worst that will happen? You might not lose weight for those months? You might gain a little weight? How much will it really set you back? You can always go back to counting calories if it doesn't work for you. It's hard, once you have trained yourself to worry about the calories, to go the other way and start ignoring them.
Switching to low-carb is hard enough on your body without providing it with all the fuel it asks for. Trust your body. Let it adapt before you try and put another stress (calorie restriction) on it. Chances are that it will automatically reduce your calories when it is ready, because you have so much excess stored in body fat.
Let's go through the various low-carb plans and see how they approach calorie counting:
- Letter on Corpulence (1869) -- William Banting
http://www.lowcarb.ca/corpulence/corpulence_full.htmlI am thoroughly convinced, that it is QUALITY alone which requires notice, and not quantity. This has been emphatically denied by some writers in the public papers, but I can confidently assert, upon the indisputable evidence of many of my correspondents, as well as my own, that they are mistaken.
I apprehend that people of larger frame and build may require a proportionately larger quantity of the prescribed diet, but they must be guided by their own judgment in the application of the principles laid down. - Eat Fat And Grow Slim (1958) -- Richard MacKarness, M.B., B.S
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/fat/chap2.htmThe beauty of this method of slimming is that once you have got the hang of the proportions of fat, protein and carbohydrate in the foods you choose to eat, you can afford to ignore calories altogether.
[. . .]
The much publicised diets with emphasis solely on calories are fallacious. It is excess carbohydrates and not calories only that make a fat man fat. The tiresome business of totting up daily calories, on which most modern reducing diets are based, is a waste of time for an obese person. Because, as Professor Kekwick and Dr. Pawan showed, a fat man may maintain his weight on a low-calorie diet, if it is taken mainly as carbohydrate, but he will lose weight on a much higher calorie diet provided he eats it mainly in the form of fat and protein. - Dr. Atkins' Diet Revolution: The High Calorie Way to Stay Thin Forever (1972) Robert Atkins
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=430644The Rules of Original Atkins
The Diet Revolution Rules (Level One)
1. Don’t count calories - Jeff Volek (author of Art and Science of Low Carb Living/Performance)
http://www.truehealthunlimited.com/blog/q-a-with-jeff-volek-phd-rd-the-nations-leading-low-carb-expert-scientific-researcherI’ve effortlessly maintained my weight over 20 years without counting, I never count calories. - Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/do-calories-matter“Should I be counting calories?” In a word, no. - The Calorie Myth -- Johnathan Bailer
http://youtu.be/e5ewexMZ1-o
You'll note, he stresses that calories do count. He even says you could gain weight on a high-fat, no carb diet (drinking 10k calories of liquid butter a day). Although, no one would ever do that. And, really that's the whole point. You're not going to want to eat more than your body is able to use. Low Carb is not a denial of the existence of calories. They're there and you'll need to burn off the excess ones you have stored to lose fat.
LowCarbHeart Summed the points up well.- If you focus on the quality of what you eat, the quantity will take care of itself
- It is truly impossible to accurately track calories in and even harder to track calories out
- Changing the quality of what you eat will cause you to burn more calories than any exercise ever will
- Sugar is more addictive than cocaine
- Calorie counting only works for 4.6% of the population
- Exercise is also about quality not quantity
- Eating fat doesn't make you fat, it makes you full
- You burn more calories in the process of burning protein vs carbohydrates
- Become Fat Adapted vs Sugar Adapted
- Sometimes the pursuit of health can become unhealthy. If you just stick to eating non-starchy vegetables, nutrient dense protein, whole fat, and low fructose fruits, in that order, you will be fine.
I have ranted on this several times in the past:
Calories matter, but you don't [shouldn't] need to count or restrict calories. Hydration also matters, but you don't need to count or restrict water intake. Your body, when operating correctly, will take care of caloric balance without conscious intervention on your own part. Are there possible complicating factors which may prevent your body from operating correctly? Sure. You already found one of them. In the presence of carbs, many people's hormones and metabolic signals get messed up and your body fails to operate correctly. Some medications, medical conditions, and other factors could also hinder proper functioning.
If you eat more calories than your body needs, your body will deal with those calories in some way. They will be stored as fat or burned off (there are many ways they can be used up). You don't really get to choose which one happens. You can decide to exercise more, but if you don't it won't prevent your body from burning them in other ways.
Frankly, I ignore all calorie calculations and advice. I've tracked them all, and found the resultant data to be so full of error as to be useless. Years ago, when I lost weight by restricting, I weighed more and was younger. I was also working out. By all accounts, I should have had a higher TDEE (daily calorie burn). But, if I ate 1,700-1,800 calories a day, I would gain weight. It drove me crazy. These days, I am lighter and older than I was. I rarely work out. I have the same job as before. By all accounts, I should have a lower TDEE. All the calculations say my current TDEE should be about 350 calories a day fewer than before. Instead, I am eating ~2,400-2,500 calories a day and still losing weight.
That's right. I have a lower [estimated] TDEE... I am eating ~700 calories more... by all accounts, if the numbers made sense, I should be gaining more than two pounds a week now or I should have been losing more than two pounds a week then.
Truth is, before I had deprived myself to the point where my body metabolically adapted to the amount I had been eating and it had adapted to the exercise level I was doing. Now, it's almost the opposite.
Anyway, long story short... calories matter, but a lot of things you don't need to control matter. We could say that weight loss was simply a matter of carbon balance. If you lose more carbon each day than you take in, you will lose weight (this is true, btw... the fat you burn becomes carbon-dioxide and water). Good luck trying to count the carbon molecules you consume through food and compare them to the amount you lose through the many ways it leaves your body. Calories are the same basic thing. You may have one easy way they come in, but there are many possible things that can happen to them after that and not all of those are under your conscious control.
I found a large component of low carb was retraining myself to eat the correct amount. I actually had minimum calorie goals, that I would hit, and no maximum calorie goals. Before I hit maintenance, I would eat at least 1,900 calories a day (on average). Below that was only acceptable if the day before had been well over and I truly wasn't hungry. Usually, I would hit a little more than that.
Will you see some weight fluctuations right at the start? I did. You'll have to give your body time to settle and trust that it will.
For me, calories matter much less than carbs. When I add nuts, tons of veggies (particularly non-green ones), fruit, most dairy, sugar-alcohols, artificial sweeteners, etc. I find my calories rise. I can avoid that by tracking every item I eat, which is just not how I choose to live. The other option, for me, is to just avoid them on a general basis. It may be similar for you, except that you want to include a certain amount of calories that aren't filling to get you up to the range you need to eat to stop losing weight.
There are several books you can read:
- "Good Calories Bad Calories" By Taubes
- "Why We Get Fat" By Taubes
- "The Calorie Myth" By Bailor
Off the top of my head, this is all I've got. I may add more later. Eventually, I intend to link to this from the launchpad... unless the other group leaders adamantly refuse to allow such heresy to be part of that.
One member was concerned about undereating and asked what I thought of that. This was the response.
Short term, I would agree with that. Just be willing and prepared for the possibility of a big feast day. I've known people who would do around those levels the first week or so and then suddenly be starving (and they'd eat... a lot... a lot, a lot... talking 4k+ calories). Usually, hunger will normalize around a point that works for your body. If you're eating that low, I'd probably focus on high protein foods first, before the fats. Add as much fat as you feel like you can stomach... but decide the amount of meat you want before you do (like... "I want that big of a steak right now" not "I want 45g of protein at this meal").
If you find yourself craving a bit more fat, eat it. If you want less fat, eat a little leaner cut of meat.
I really doubt you'll want to maintain extremely low for very long. But, the initial switch is well known to cause extreme loss of hunger. Just listen to what you want.
Don't panic if you have a 5k calorie day. It will be ok. You won't have undone your work. Your body is just rebooting.
While under-eating is probably a larger concern than over-eating (as hypercaloric intake seems to be a relatively well handled thing with low carb) because you could lose muscle mass, I wouldn't worry unless it becomes a constant. Your appetite should pick up after a while. Just don't ignore it when it happens and you'll be fine.
7
Replies
-
Wow. Fit GOAT, you give a person a lot to think about and who can argue with your results? It would be cool to not have to log everything. Sometimes it almost feels guilty not to log food. What you propose would be much simpler.
I gotta try it. What do I have to lose? (no pun here)1 -
If I don't log, how will I know how many carbs I'm eating?1
-
Phoenix_Dawn wrote: »If I don't log, how will I know how many carbs I'm eating?
We had many solutions to this problem, in the original Ad Libitum month. We created an extension that hid calories on the website. Some people only logged foods containing carbs. Some people just kept track of how many carbs they have left in their head. It's not super hard when it's the only thing you pay attention to. Some of us ate no carbs. It is really easy to track zero.
The extension is no longer working, but we have a different method for hiding calories now. In the end, this isn't a "no logging" challenge. You can log, and you can even log everything. It is an attempt to avoid conscious calorie restriction.Wow. Fit GOAT, you give a person a lot to think about and who can argue with your results? It would be cool to not have to log everything. Sometimes it almost feels guilty not to log food. What you propose would be much simpler.
I gotta try it. What do I have to lose? (no pun here)
I will see if we have the original thread and rules. I remember the results were pretty good from the first time we did it, and a bunch of people promised to stick it out just to prove me wrong (as they were convinced that I was a fool). Funny enough, I was someone who gained weight the original month. I was weight stable when we started, and ate a bunch of dairy right at the end (which spikes my scale weight). So, I was up a pound or so. Still, you get used to your weight floating around a few pounds.1 -
The following is the text of the original challenge, with dates updated for this upcoming one.
Who here is down for a month of not counting calories? Want to see if you can live like the crazies? Here's a chance to try it out for yourself. Or, if you're already doing it, here's a chance to officially track how it's working for you. I'll obviously be sticking to my usual goals: no plants (so trace carbs only) and no counting or measuring of anything but my weight.
Basics- You can log your food, so long as you don't change how much you eat based on the calories.
- You don't need to log, if you don't want to.
- Your carb goal should be the only thing you count, if you include carbs, and should be strictly stayed under.
- You should make note of when you include sugar-alcohols and if you counted those carbs. Some people find that those do end up still counting.
- You should check in weekly* (Wednesday 8/1, 8/8, 8/15, 8/22, and Saturday 9/1).
- You should try and stay in for the whole month. If nothing else, you'll prove to me you couldn't do it and still lose weight.
Weekly Check-In Should Include- Carb Goal:
- Starting Weight (or 0.0):
- Current Weight (or total change from starting weight):
- Short description of how it's going for you. Anything you think is important or you want to mention.
Note: You can use weight or just the overall change in your weight. I'll actually be using my trend-weight on each day. You can do a "Change in weight" track, if you would prefer people not know your actual weight. That would be a starting weight of 0.0, and then you would add or subtract the difference each week..
Example of same person, different ways:
Weight:
(8/1, 184.0) (8/8, 185.3) (8/15, 184.2) (8/22, 182.9) (9/1, 181.1)
Change:
(8/1, 0.0) (8/8, +1.3) (8/15, +0.2) (8/22, -1.1) (9/1, -2.9)
Obviously, I hope it goes better than that for people who try this.
* Yes, I realize that the final check-in is more than a week. But, that does give us the whole month worth and it was that or have one on the 29th and then another three days later. I'll also be creating a thread (hopefully the night before) for the check-ins. So, that will help remind people of the dates.2 -
Method for hiding calories in the website. There is no method (as far as I am aware) of hiding them on the app. This only hides them on the diary screen, where you enter food. Your main page will still show it.This is a very cut-down, very simple, stylish sheet that seems to work on firefox
First, install Stylish.
Second, click on the new icon.
Third, click on the three dots,
Fourth, select "Create new style"
Fifth, copy and paste the code below into the style box.@-moz-document url-prefix("http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary"), url-prefix("https://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary"){ td:nth-child(2) { display: none } }
Sixth, give it a name and click save.
That should be it. Google chrome should be a similar process (according to what I have read)... except you really only need the 3 lines starting with td:nth-child(2) {... and it will ask what site it applies for when it is set up.
Here is what it looks like for me.
2 -
"Restrict" I'm in
"Eliminate" not so much
Chickens have already placed me
on their "Most Hated List"2 -
FIT this is the way I have been doing Keto since Oct 2014.
Sure I had to count to figure out what I was eating initially but never saw any reason to record it.
I still weight each morning and for the past three years I have been at 195 +/- 5 pounds. While at my 255 peak weight back in 2014 I took weight loss off of the table as a health goal. After 40 years I knew it was a worthless goal because everytime I lost weight I had a 100%+ regain. Plus at the age of 63 and knowing I did not have long to live at my rate of decline I NEVER WANTED TO GO HUNGRY EVER AGAIN TO LOSE WEIGHT. I feel like shouting that from the mountain tops.
When I decided to focus on my health to avoid starting on Enbrel injections for my Ankylosing Spondylitis pain I then cold turkey (tapering failed for the first two months) stopped eat/drinking food sources containing added sugars and or any form of any grain.
While I keep my gross carb level around 50 grams daily my one rule just noted makes my carb level automatic for the most part.
Weighting each morning is my high carb eating warning buzzer. If my weight jumps 3-6 pounds in one day I know somewhere somehow I got into something that was prepared with sugar and or grain. I love coleslaw but I never knew people dumped sugar into it. I now eat before church potlucks because of problems like this.
After the first few months say Jan 2015 I realized I could eat all I wanted of my new WOE when I wanted it and still lose or maintain my weight.
I estimate I still eat 2000-3000 calories most days because once or twice a year I total my days calories on a napkin.
Breakfast this morning was 1000+ calories which is typical. 700 were from my one cup of coffee due to the coconut oil and heavy whipping. If I go to McDonald's today like most I will typically drink 3 cups of coffee giving me 540 more calories from the half and half. As you can see when adding in lunch and dinner it is not hard to hit 3000 some days. While I move more non that my arthritis is reversing slowly I still make sure I walk the 1/4 mile path everyday.
Yes it sounds like a no brainer but that what what this old man required this time around. Well there were two hellish weeks of carb withdrawal reaction but that time in hell has about faded from my mind as I am back to living for the now and the future.
I do not know if this simple approach is right or wrong for others and do not try to tell others how to think, eat and move. It works for me is all that I know.
5 -
It's incredibly freeing, isn't it Gale? Just trusting that your body will do the right thing, and eating as much as you want. I know a lot of people won't get on board. But, for those who do and free themselves, it's worth it. My favorite quote from the original trial wasI discovered that I can eat, including 2 birthday celebrations and a holiday where I didn't have access to my normal foods and still lose weight. I didn't log ANYTHING. I listened to my hunger cues and it still worked. Eat when I'm hungry, stop when I'm not.
Not logging shifted my focus from thinking about and obsessing over food. I just got on with life, ate low carb for the vast majority of the time and ate when I was hungry. I proved that I can do it. I'm much more relaxed about food and eating.
[. . . ]
That was a big step for me. After decades of not knowing how to eat for my body and every diet requiring you to be militant over every mouthful it's a huge relief. Not counting anything is so liberating.3 -
I tried to compile all the results from the original Ad Libitum experiment way back in the day. I turned everything into net weight loss, and removed names. I didn't keep track of drop-out, which is something that I would like to be more aware of this time.
The chart is hard to read, but most people lost weight. At the 3rd checkin 94% were down. At the end, it was 63%. One person reported that their weight was exactly the same (no gain), I was up, 4 others were also up but a couple of those were some daily variance away from being no change. Honestly, 0.2 lbs is the same as zero on the scale. But, whatever. It looks like a lot of people popped up at the end of the month. I know what caused mine (dairy).
The average amount of weight lost was -2.2 pounds. With the most weight lost being -10.6 pounds. The largest gain was +2.6 pounds. Of those who lost weight, the average loss was -3.9 pounds. That's loss-rate (between 0.5-1 pound a week) is pretty typical for most people and their goals at the time.
When we start, this time, I am going to try and record dropouts. I don't think we had many the first time, because a couple hung in just to tell me that I was wrong and prove they would gain weight. So, when we do the first check-in, I will start a new tracking sheet.2 -
You have to ignore the dates in the chart. I made that chart using the sheet I prepared for this upcoming month. The dates should be April 1, 2015 to May 1, 2015.1
-
Sounds like a great idea.0
-
I'm in!
0 -
I'm in. Starting up again at MFP. I had great success after figuring out LCHF stuff that worked for me, and I got lazy about staying engaged with MFP. But, I'm back... Coming off a three-month carb "slip up" (more like a full-on Slip-N-Slide headfirst dive - Hahaha!). I've been getting more interested in the science and application of a zero carb diet and questioning the validity of the whole "calorie" thing. FIT_Goat, your posts have been so informative and inspiring. Thanks!1
-
I'll give this a try. The thought of freeing myself from constant counting sounds amazing. I'm always obsessing about food. It would be nice to focus on other things1
-
ok the only thing i have to say is , my sister lost 175 pounds like 15 years ago and has kept it off maybe up 10 pounds then back down again , she eats low carb , not keto not anything fancy , just low carb (20or lower a day) she never counted calories , never ! she asks me all the time , Tammy why are you counting calories and i am like that is how it is done on MFP and she says ok , but just eat meat and cheese and some veggies (low carb ones) don't worry about it ....I do worry , because my brain says I have to count I have to do something or I will eat crazy foods LOL like mcdoubles LOL so I log every thing , but in the last week I have gained weight and I am logging , I am counting , I am staying under my macros , and putting butter in my coffee LOL , but it's not working anymore . I am even doing the not eating after 8 pm and don't eat again until 10 or 11 am , so I have to try something , I am up 7 pounds and I was losing like 2 pounds a week or so . SO maybe I will do what my sister has been saying for 6 months .....why am I counting calories !!
thank you for all the info : @FIT_Goat1 -
I track only sporadically now (4 years into maintenance) but am VERY glad I tracked in the beginning. I really had little clue how much I was eating versus how much I should be eating to maintain a decent weight. Then when I switched to high fat, the visual on the plate was extremely different to the eye compared to my "tons of low cal vegetables" method of weight loss so another mental adjustment was in order.
Good luck to all.2 -
tammyfranks2 wrote: »ok the only thing i have to say is , my sister lost 175 pounds like 15 years ago and has kept it off maybe up 10 pounds then back down again , she eats low carb , not keto not anything fancy , just low carb (20or lower a day) she never counted calories , never !
Yep, this is the way low-carb was done. This is why people used to lose their minds about it. Saying you don't count calories and you just eat until you're not hungry? That's how people are supposed to get fat, not lose weight!she asks me all the time , Tammy why are you counting calories and i am like that is how it is done on MFP
It really is. I openly admit, this is the wrong audience for the "don't count" message.
But, I practice what I preach and I believe in it. Not only does it work, but it does amazing things for your mindset. That's why I still bring it up here, even though it is not how things are done at MFP.and she says ok , but just eat meat and cheese and some veggies (low carb ones) don't worry about it ....I do worry , because my brain says I have to count I have to do something or I will eat crazy foods LOL like mcdoubles LOL so I log every thing , but in the last week I have gained weight and I am logging , I am counting , I am staying under my macros , and putting butter in my coffee LOL , but it's not working anymore . I am even doing the not eating after 8 pm and don't eat again until 10 or 11 am , so I have to try something , I am up 7 pounds and I was losing like 2 pounds a week or so . SO maybe I will do what my sister has been saying for 6 months .....why am I counting calories !!
thank you for all the info : @FIT_Goat
Hopefully this turns things around for you. I don't know how far away from your goal you are, and the body does weird things on a short-term basis, so you have to learn to trust it.2 -
Hopefully this turns things around for you. I don't know how far away from your goal you are, and the body does weird things on a short-term basis, so you have to learn to trust it. @Fit_Goat
I have a lot to lose , so this really is a serious WOE for me , surgery, and doctors, pain, and pills , is my life and I am done . I have to lose weight . I am only 45 pounds down . need to lose at lease 200 . and i will trust that i can do this ...thanks !!4 -
Fascinating!
I’m curious about this too.
In regards to the MFP calorie count, would it work to simply set my calories really high and just ignore them?
I focus mainly on the macro ratios, keeping my carbs to max of 40g. But truth be told, I always have a sideways eye on those calories.
I’ve lost 60 pounds in the past year, slow and steady. But perhaps I’m calorie restricting.... and I’ve done the yo-yo nonsense plenty of times; I don’t want that.
I’m intrigued.3 -
Tammy, I had bariatric surgery and lost 175 pounds under doctors supervision. But forty pounds crept back. Then I found lo-carb (which turned into keto) and turned it around. I lost twenty in two months.tammyfranks2 wrote: »I have a lot to lose , so this really is a serious WOE for me , surgery, and doctors, pain, and pills , is my life and I am done . I have to lose weight . I am only 45 pounds down . need to lose at lease 200 . and i will trust that i can do this ...thanks !!
The similarity of appetite loss with both methods intrigues me. Bariatric works for many; but lo-carb seems to have the same potential. Good luck - you can do this!
3
