Experiments, tests, trying things out..

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  • Bella_Figura
    Bella_Figura Posts: 4,032 Member
    edited March 2022
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    Yes....but living with a husband who takes almost 100 tablets a day has made me tablet-averse. I'd rather understand the cause and address it if possible, rather than just paper over the cracks.

    Maybe it's just retirement and having more free time...I'm finally tackling all those annoying health issues that I've had for decades but done nothing about...

    I started with the excess weight...
    Then started trying to improve my cardio-vascular fitness and endurance...
    Lately I've started to address my very stiff spine and lack of flexibility...

    It was only a matter of time before I turned my attention to resolving 'the poo issue'....

    Now if I could just turn back the clock and restore elasticity to my saggy, wrinkly skin that would be the icing on the cake... :smile:
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
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    I like your style Garfield! Flexibility... maybe you'll help tie me in a pretzel soon.... :smiley:
  • Bella_Figura
    Bella_Figura Posts: 4,032 Member
    edited March 2022
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    Here's a theoretical conundrum for you....

    If you had to choose between:
    • maintaining a higher than ideal weight - but being healthier
      OR
    • maintaining your ideal weight - but having some minor but annoying health issues
    ...which would you choose?

    This is the situation I'm grappling with at the moment.

    The minor issue is slow gut transit.

    This seems to respond better to a diet higher in fat - in fact, the sweet spot seems to be about 120g fat/day.

    It also responds well to an 80g/day maintenance dose of dried prunes (there is science to back this up! The 80g optimal figure wasn't plucked out of thin air...)

    Problem is:
    • 80g prunes adds about 180 cals/day (but only a trace amount of fat)
    • 120g fat amounts to about 1,080 cals
    • Let's assume I also wanted another couple of pieces of fruit per day for overall health reasons - say one apple and one orange - both have almost no fat - but would add another 120 calories/day
    • Let's assume I also wanted a couple of portions of veggies - again, no fat...let's say they add 120 calories

    So here are my calories so far:
    0m4gucyx7eck.png

    That's 1500 calories before I've eaten a single bean, pea or lentil; before I've eaten any grains... (OK, I know bread/pasta/rice all contain fat, but not in great quantities....)

    The maintenance calories for my ideal weight are about 1,750/day - provided that I can continue to walk an average of 18,000 steps/day and continue to cycle 80kms a week. If injury prevents me maintaining that calorie burn, my TDEE might drop as low as 1,495/day (at an activity factor of 1.4)

    Best case scenario, at my ideal weight I have only 250 calories a day for pulses and grains....
    Worst case scenario, I have to eliminate those foods from my diet entirely, and get all my energy from modest amounts of fruit and veggies, and the bulk from the fat contained in meat, dairy, fish and nuts/seeds.

    It's possible, but is it enjoyable? I don't even like meat and fish very much!

    Whereas, if I maintained at my current weight, I get 130 - 150 cal/day more to play around with, which wouldn't buy me many grains/pulses, but would be better than nothing.

    So should I settle for maintaining my current weight so that I can have a more balanced diet....or eventually push on to my ideal weight (10kg lower) but suck up the more restricted diet?

    Decisions, decisions...
  • lauriekallis
    lauriekallis Posts: 4,672 Member
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    I'm coming to the maybe living at a higher than romantic dream weight is optimum. So I would opt for that. I was going to try to aim for the "ideal weight" just to try it on, but that seems to really mess with my body. It wasn't like trying on a different sized piece of clothing. Going to try not to do that again.
  • Athijade
    Athijade Posts: 3,250 Member
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    I mean, my "ideal" weight puts me into the 120's for my height. I would be ecstatic to be 160-150 with my health being better. Less weight will hopefully equal less pain. Nothing is going to cure my IC but I can maintain my current remission thanks to diet. Plus, I have to think about my mental health as well.

    I also have digestive issues, though mine seem to be the opposite. I have to be very careful with my fat or I will be spending all day in the bathroom. Which is one big reason I am really trying to cut out fast food. I always react badly to it.
  • conniewilkins56
    conniewilkins56 Posts: 3,391 Member
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    I must have the guts of a goat….no allergies, no plumbing issues, no diabetes and healthy organs!….my b/p is probably a little high and I have replaced body parts but I am healthy…..gaining back 40 pounds has left me huffing and puffing but I am back on track and the scales are moving in the right direction…350+ was horrible, 240 was amazing, and 280 is doable but not good….my goal is 199 and for me that would be a huge victory and a livable weight for me….to think I was within 40 pounds makes me sick but I am getting back there!
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
    edited March 2022
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    Garfield you're hurting my brain!

    And you made me spend time trying to look at my own numbers... which highlight that YES I *am* eating way too many saturated and tran-fats (traced to logged cookies for the two highest individual values in the 12.5 and 10.5g range on the two days in question) for my own good.

    ia29qv9zce7v.png

    Also explains my current weight... I am a little bit older and a little bit less active... and I am eating on average very close to what my TDEE was between 2016 and 2018. So I currently weight a little bit more than I did then close to the upper half of my 2016 weight. :wink:

    dor9s57o1ysp.png

    When you think about it Garfield... that's actually fairly amazing given how much "hamster handling" is taking place... to essentially end up at the same place! Really: it actually a bit mind blowing.

    So we now get back to you! :wink:

    A bit of a false dichotomy you're presenting. It isn't either, OR. It is a continuum.

    Sure. Right now things work *best* at 120g fats. BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION.

    How many grams of fat did you start with? I'll take a random stab at 1/3 of your 1500 Cal. So you started with less than 60g of fats and you've now doubled them.

    Well 120 is BEST. But you can try 100g or even try 80g. Maybe it won't be as PERFECT as 120g. But it will probably be better than 55g or 60g.

    And the dried prunes? A lot of them are covered with a thin sheen of oil for preservation and... I suspect to enhance their effect. They are not a bad little thingy and they do count as your BASIC fruit for the day (85g dry is two portions vs 85g fresh being one)

    Decisions are not irrevocable. And issue management does NOT have to be 100% diet with no help from the pharmacy... nor 100% managed via pharmacy with no help from diet!

    So NUDGE towards where you want to be. But do watch out for saturated and other not so great fats. Not all lipids are created equal and I really should start looking at MY saturated and trans-fat consumption!

    I don't think you (you personally given what I know about your gastronomical adventures) will be too happy going "low carb" and being happy with your "diet" does play into sustainability just as much as managing any other condition.
  • Bella_Figura
    Bella_Figura Posts: 4,032 Member
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    You're right of course on all counts.

    Yes, your hamster wrangling is nothing short of stupendous - to be in essentially the same place given the plates you keep spinning is mind boggling.

    Yes, it is a false dichotomy.

    Yes, I don't have to hit the sweet spot every day...things started to improve when I nudged the fat above 80 on a consistent basis...and got better still at 120g, which is all I could comfortably shoehorn into 1900 calories.

    Yes...I could use some supplements....with the caveat that they've not helped much in the past, and have actually tended to exacerbate the problem...hence why I'm currently experimenting (using myself as a lab rat again) with a dietary approach instead.

    Yes...decisions aren't irrevocable and are infinitely flexible and nuanced...

    Yes...I customarily focus mainly on unsaturated fat...though an unhealthy amount of suet and butter have sneaked into my diet of late, I must confess...

    Yes...I have ZERO affinity for a low carb diet. Sheesh, I'd hate it! I certainly wouldn't even consider it if there weren't this ongoing issue making life uncomfortable...but sometimes for health reasons you need to suck things up that aren't especially palatable. I'm trying to find the magic formula that means I can get the improvements I need without going low carb...

  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
    edited March 2022
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    So retract to 80g, or so, slowly... and use some but not excess fiber.... and see how things go

    Girl fiber is supposed to be at around 26/28 I think without double checking. I think mainly because of total calories. So probably a bit less for you if you're below 2k.

    Before you increased fiber for not so good results, and during the increase, how much was your lipid intake during the same timeframe?

    Maybe increase lipids 20% from THAT and keep fiber normal as opposed to high or low and see how a week or two go? 🤞

    Or go for 80g and then play with fiber to see if more or less is good.

    And what type. Let's just say that it is REALLY NOT a good idea for me to have all bran buds -psyllium- without good and speedy access to a washroom the next day 🙀🙀🙀🤷🏻‍♂️
  • Bella_Figura
    Bella_Figura Posts: 4,032 Member
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    Current plan is to keep fibre below 25g (which is still on the high side for the average person). With the bulk coming from soluble fibre rather than insoluble.

    It's counter-intuitive but INsoluble fibre (the 'roughage' that is supposed to be the magic bullet for curing or preventing constipation) is the thing that causes me problems.

    Psyllium is actually 70% soluble fibre, which doesn't help as much as it should, but doesn't do any harm either. Bran (insoluble fibre) is actively harmful for me - everything grinds to a halt.

    Prior/during the doomed 'great fibre increase experiment' my lipids were averaging 1g per kg of bodyweight, which is about spot on per the recommendations (and actually pretty consistent since day 1).
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
    edited March 2022
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    So with only 10% increase in lipids you saw improvements

    So try 80g + soluble?

    No idea what buds are made with but most of the action from them comes from the psyllium unlike other all bran product. If I have too much insoluble without enough lipids I would have trouble too.

    Thankfully due to total calories I get to coast at 100g + unlimited fiber and only get in trouble when 8 reduce fiber to normal levels! 👍😹

    The young ones around here will say this conversation has gone to the 💩er! 🙀😘
  • Yoolypr
    Yoolypr Posts: 2,893 Member
    edited March 2022
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    PAV8888 wrote: »

    The young ones around here will say this conversation has gone to the 💩er! 🙀😘

    The old ones too!!!
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
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    💩💩 2 U 2 Yooly! :lol::kissing_heart:
  • lauriekallis
    lauriekallis Posts: 4,672 Member
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    At least we know your still alive! :)
  • Bella_Figura
    Bella_Figura Posts: 4,032 Member
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    Am I the only person who constantly treats myself as a lab rat for dodgy dietary/exercise experiments?
  • lauriekallis
    lauriekallis Posts: 4,672 Member
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    And that's why we love you! <3
  • luxia2020
    luxia2020 Posts: 55 Member
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    Am I the only person who constantly treats myself as a lab rat for dodgy dietary/exercise experiments?
    I don't know if I can consider myself a lab rat for that kind of experimentation. However, I have been subjecting myself to an exceptionally long test. :D Let's put it in a more "scientific" format since this is a long-term test.
    Hypothesis: Practicing "maintenance" early in the weight loss journey prepares the mind and body for the actual long-term maintenance through engrained habits.
    Methodology:
    • Based on the article I've shared elsewhere previously, the idea is to practice intermittent fasting with a completely scheduled day, with flexibility in the middle of the day for inconsistent events. (Incorporated on February 01, 2022.)
    • Set calorie goal on MFP to be the maintenance value for a desired milestone weight goal after confirming said value does not go under the current weight's BMR.
    • Follow a typical day around that maintenance value.
    • Once weight drops to the milestone weight goal, readjust the calorie goal on MFP again to the ideal weight goal's maintenance value.
    • Once the ideal weight goal is achieved, maintain the same settings and eating habits to see if weight averages around the ideal weight consistently, with a 1-2% error margin for a year.
    Findings thus far:
    • First 3 weeks, elevated hunger pains for reasons unknown.
    • The following month, hunger pains signify a lack of sufficient protein & fat combinations in the previous meal or the time between meals exceeding 4 hours.
    • Micronutrient adjustment after 100 days seems to have no correlation to fullness level.
    • The last month, incorporating suggestions from the linked article above, has improved my sleeping pattern and productivity. In addition, healthy eating habits have now been solidified.
    • At 250 days, I had not thought much about what I've been doing until I started writing this post.
    Temporary Conclusion: It seems to be working?
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
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    Where are all my I LOVE @luxia2020 emojies?!!!!

    YES. YES. YES. :love: :love: :love:

    Now let's build some extra resilience in the model... some defensive strategies... flesh it out... and we're ready to publish! :wink:
  • luxia2020
    luxia2020 Posts: 55 Member
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    PAV8888 wrote: »
    Where are all my I LOVE @luxia2020 emojies?!!!!

    YES. YES. YES. :love: :love: :love:

    Now let's build some extra resilience in the model... some defensive strategies... flesh it out... and we're ready to publish! :wink:

    Funny you mention that, PAV! I was wondering how else to flesh it out before I decided to temporarily shelve it for now and post what I had thus far! :D Though, what did you mean by "defensive strategies?"
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
    edited April 2022
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    "defensive strategies" :blush:

    The world will inevitably collapse.
    Things won't work out.
    Change will be externally imposed.
    Hamster city panic!
    OMG, OMG, OMG.
    run around run around... the sky the sky....

    How will you mitigate the damage?

    What parts will you cling on to the "very end" going down with the ship and the music playing because they are the most important aspects of why things work?


    --What if your next job is night shift? what part of "the plan" would you still be able to get to work?
    --you built flexibility mid-day you said. What if your friends drag you out to after nine pm half price sushi? will you survive?

    hey: I just stumble into these things: your clear thinking and plan above is already above my pay grade :smile:

    But I am a believer in onions and fall-back positions due to being a "natural" pessimist... and then neutrally observing happy happy things happening.

    If I were an optimist things would be better, right? But I am not.. so there's that and we each work within our hamster limits! :lol: