Given a choice between paying more taxes and letting the poor die in the streets, many would choose to let them die.

Given a choice between paying more taxes and letting the poor die in the streets, many would choose to let them die.

Really? You are far more cynical than I.

It's true I'm very cynical. When I see people arguing against a proposed solution without offering a counter solution, I assume they want the poor to just go away and die quietly. As I said, I do not like Obama's plan as written. I have stated what I think our options are and in another thread I outlined what I would prefer to see in a healthcare bill.

I assume that people who say that they don't want to pay taxes so someone else can see a doctor and who do not suggest another solution simply want the poor to die.

Blujay is an exception, since she tries to analyze the possibilities even if she hasn't offered a specific cut and dried solution (which admittedly, may not be the right solution, since the issue isn't necessarily cut and dried).

You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.

People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.

To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:

1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.

It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.

By the way, y'all can call me Katie... :flowerforyou:

My daughter's name is Katie (although, she decided last year in 2nd grade to spell it with a y because it's "cuter")! Her name is Kathleen.

You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.

People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.

To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:

1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.

It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.

I actually was listening to 'Fortunate Son' by CCR on my way home from lunch and had to turn the channel because of the lines about people with "a silver spoon only helping themselves" and not being foturnate because you aren't a millionaires son.

I'm considered poor and I'm sick of the rich being given such a bad rap. My boyfriend and I look up to successful, wealthy people. We want to have nice cars, vacation in nice places and have nice things but the only way we will ever get there is by working very, hard and having lots of ambition. Brian and I are striving for a successful life together and to live the American dream.. I wonder why we want those things. If we work our *kitten* of to obtain those goals, poor people are going to judge us and complain about how we have so much and they have so little. I'm scared for us to work our way up to success and wealth because it seems to be a trap.

The poor can get emergency services.

Sure, if you consider having a runny nose to be an emergency service. "The poor" go to the ER for everything, and that is not going to change with Obamatax. You know why? Because it's too much trouble to call a doctor for an appointment, wait for the appointment, remember the appointment, and actually show up for the appointment. They won't go to the doctor for preventive care. They'll wait until they get sick and keep clogging up the ER because the ER cannot, by law, turn them away, and they know it.

And what about the lower middle class who doesn't receive health insurance working two 30 hour/week jobs, making barely over $10/hour, while paying for food and daycare and housing? What about them? They make too much for Medicare/Medicaid, don't have it through their employers, and can't afford it on their own.

If you can't pay for insurance, you shouldn't get to have insurance. Life sucks. But you don't have a "right" to anything that has to be paid for by someone else. And I'd like to know how many of these people who allegedly can't afford health insurance are miraculously able to afford cigarettes and beer and $50,000 cars and flat screen TVs and cell phones and $200 jeans and the latest video game systems. If health insurance were that important, surely it'd be higher on the list. When you're paying your own bills and aren't relying on the fruits of other people's labor, you don't have to answer for what you do with your money, but when you're stealing from my paycheck, you most certainly do.

I am so unbelievably sick of the half of this country that pays zero taxes whining about how the half that does pay taxes is somehow not paying enough. We'd get a lot of this ridiculousness cleaned up in a hurry if everyone had some skin in the game.

About 46 percent of American households will pay no federal individual income tax in 2011,
roughly half of them because of structural features of the income tax that provide basic
exemptions for subsistence level income and for dependents. The other half are nontaxable
because tax expenditures— special provisions of the tax code that benefit selected taxpayers or
activities—wipe out tax liabilities and, in the case of refundable credits, result in net payments
from the government. Most important of those tax expenditures are provisions that benefit senior
citizens and low-income working families with children. While those factors particularly affect
lower-income households, different provisions eliminate taxes for other households. Itemized
deductions and credits for children and education are more important for middle-income
households, while the relatively few high-income nontaxable households benefit most from
above-the-line and itemized deductions and reduced tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

When I think of things I would like to see my tax dollars go towards, healthcare for the poor is one thing I don't mind. I'm sure I can pick apart nearly everyones life who has made mistakes over the course of a few decades and decide that they made some wrong choices and ended up where they are.....but I don't think they should die from preventable health conditions for it. There is a difference between tough love and being apithetic to your fellow humans or americans.

Rights. Everyone is up in arms about their rights. I think it is reasonable to include economic freedom with our civil liberties. But when I think of things that are currently going on in this country, I just don't get how the vast majority of conservatives or what ever they are, can get so rabidly worked up over Obama care when they have done NOTHING about things like The Patriot Act, warrantless wire taps, indefinated detention, secret prisons, or spy drones being used against our own citizens. Maybe I am generalizing, but it seems that Republicans or Conservatives only care about liberties when they think it will cost them money which is ****ing sad.

Besides, and I could be wrong on this, but as far as healthcare not being a "right". I agree. But police departments aren't rights. Neither are interstate highways, public libraries and schools, postal service, fire fighters, clean drinking water, sewage, and a littany of other things that we as Americans have benefited from for a very long time not covered under the Bill of Rights.

You know what the real problem is? Government interference has gotten in the way of natural selection. It used to be embarrassing to be poor and stupid, so people tried a lot harder not to be. These days, it's noble to be a government leech.

People in this country who call themselves poor have no idea what "poor" really means. They accuse "the rich" (whom they define as anyone who doesn't live on public assistance) of having ill-gotten "wealth," and they use this false premise to rationalize their "right" to pop out 7 kids and support them with taxpayer dollars because working an $8/hr fast food counter isn't worth their time. And they pass that chip right on down to their own kids' shoulders instead of teaching them that they can have more if they're willing to work for it.

To paraphrase Walter Williams, this is how not to be poor in America:

1. Graduate from high school.
2. Get married before you have kids.
3. Stay married.
4. Work at any kind of job (even one that starts out paying minimum wage).
5. Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.

It is not rocket science. It's time we stop making excuses and start acknowleding that at some point, you are "poor" because you choose to be.

You forgot a few.

1. Never get seriously ill.
2. Never get laid off.
3. Never have a seriously ill child.
4. Never take care of an elderly parent or grandparent.
5. Never get into a car accident.


You are an idiot if you honestly think that those 1st 5 things are how to get wealthy in America. I've been married for 19 years. We have 2 kids ages 15 and 12. I was 27 and a homeowner before we got pregnant with our first. The only debt we've ever had were a small student loan from my husband, mortgages, and 2 car payments (on a total of 6 cars over those 19 years, only 2 since 2000). I pay everything on credit and pay in full every month. I make money using credit cards because of the reward programs. We worked hard and were financially stable enough for me to be able to be a SAHM when we had kids. We are financially well off. We're not 1%ers but we're probably in the 5%er group. We've also been on WIC when my husband was activated with the National Guard reserves and sent to Iraq in 2003. He was laid off from a 6 figure job when they found out that he would likely be activated. (Yea, I know it's illegal. JAG asked if they put it in writing. *rolleyes* ) When he was activated our household income dropped 75% and stayed there. So, yea, I was that woman in the nice car with nice clothes and nice jewelry buying cheese and milk with WIC coupons. You're welcome. We rebounded again when he came home but it took a while since no one would hire him because they all thought he'd get activated again. (yes, most actually said that. No, they didn't put it into writing.) My husband now has a good job income wise. However, he's on his way to Afghanistan right now where he'll be until Christmas. We do what we have to do and are lucky enough to be healthy and physically able to do these things.

Not everyone is so lucky. I'm not stupid enough to believe that everyone really has the same opportunities. A soldier who comes home missing a leg isn't going to be able to do his job. Someone who has cancer and isn't able to work isn't going to be able to make it at all no matter when they get married or how law abiding they are. My son had a wonderful teacher this past year. She had stage 4 breast cancer. He husband works but can only work part time because he had to care for her. The school was wonderful enough to keep her on staff even after she could no longer work just so she could have health insurance. She didn't come in often but when she did she'd sit in the teacher's lounge and grade papers. The school could have let her go and cut her off insurance. They didn't and for that I am very, VERY proud to live in such a compassionate area where there aren't a lot of people who think she's a lazy slacker who doesn't deserve anything. The last day of school was June 17th. She passed away on June 22nd. You can count her as one of those leeches who pay no taxes either because once they itemize their medical expenses they won't owe a dime. I'd scold her for you but, well, yea.

Applause.......

When I think of things I would like to see my tax dollars go towards, healthcare for the poor is one thing I don't mind. I'm sure I can pick apart nearly everyones life who has made mistakes over the course of a few decades and decide that they made some wrong choices and ended up where they are.....but I don't think they should die from preventable health conditions for it. There is a difference between tough love and being apithetic to your fellow humans or americans.

Rights. Everyone is up in arms about their rights. I think it is reasonable to include economic freedom with our civil liberties. But when I think of things that are currently going on in this country, I just don't get how the vast majority of conservatives or what ever they are, can get so rabidly worked up over Obama care when they have done NOTHING about things like The Patriot Act, warrantless wire taps, indefinated detention, secret prisons, or spy drones being used against our own citizens. Maybe I am generalizing, but it seems that Republicans or Conservatives only care about liberties when they think it will cost them money which is ****ing sad.

Besides, and I could be wrong on this, but as far as healthcare not being a "right". I agree. But police departments aren't rights. Neither are interstate highways, public libraries and schools, postal service, fire fighters, clean drinking water, sewage, and a littany of other things that we as Americans have benefited from for a very long time not covered under the Bill of Rights.

Meh... Democrats haven't done anything about the Patriot act and all the things you listed either... in fact Obama signed the Patriot Act extention... But then I also think both parties (and their hardcore groupies) are full of crap.... I think the difference between some of the social privilages that you listed comes down to who funds and manages them.... yes, police and fire departments may get a federal grant here and there, but they are largely a local entity... the local city hires them because the city and it's citizens feels it's necessary... not because the federal government mandates it.... the same goes for libraries, water and sewer... and what not... cities are also well within their rights to opt for a private company to take this over and manage it... though this doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.... and while it may not seem like a big difference to a lot of people, I personally don't have a problem with local and/or state governments issuing taxes and providing a service... I may be biased in this though.... however, I do disagree with the federal government doing such things.... like I said before, the United States is a diverse country in many different ways.... what is needed in Washington State is not going to be the same as what is needed in Mississippi... I feel this way about education, I feel this way about just about everything.... and I feel that all too often, the federal government puts a cure all on to everything instead of considering the nuances of each region...

BTW, I don't mind the interstate system, because that was initially started as a national defense mechinism... a way to move convoys easily from one area to another in the time of war.... and it helps regulate interstate commerce.... also I wouldn't mind seeing the post office privatized, as a public entity they haven't been making any money in a long time... mostly due to government legislation that makes it hard for the USPS to close a post office if it is not making any money to stand... they have been "borrowing" from the government for years now.

It wasn't a defense of Democrats, I hold them just as accountable for things like the Patriot Act, but since we were talking about Obama Care and the conservatives seem to be outraged the most, I just wonder when they all became such hard core constitutionalists because it wasn't from 2000-2008.

And I understand what you are saying about the difference between State and Federal services, but they aren't "rights" and it's the same concept. Besides, I'm a little sick of the whole States rights discussion. Seems like when ever I hear a person advocating "States Rights", they are getting ready to **** someone else out of something like marriage another civil liberty issue.