The Carnivore Credo
FIT_Goat
Posts: 4,224 Member
[Currently Incomplete ... but please post responses with questions or comments... as they will help me complete it]
I, FIT_Goat, am a strict carnivore. This means that I eat little, to no, plants. All of my energy (calories) and nutrients come from animals or animal products. I believe plants can be used for seasoning and or medicine, but they aren't meant to be used for attempting to meet energy or nutrient goals.
The Basics
Why?
This is the biggest question people ask. Each person is different. Many people assume we just don't like vegetables. I like most vegetables. I even used to be a vegetarian. I spent most of my life convinced that the lack of perfect health was probably due to eating too few vegetables. When starting this way of eating, I started with one basic belief.
"My body wants to be healthy and in shape."
Your body wants to be in shape, too. My body was struggling to get healthy because of things I was eating. When I ate lots of carbs, my body couldn't get excess weight off. Reducing the carbs led to obvious results in my weight. My health also improved, commensurate with the lost weight, and I felt great. For all I knew, things were ideal. I didn't even know I needed to do anything else.
I started this out of curiosity. Could I do it? Would I die? I read a book that said it was possible, but could it be real? But, I quickly stuck to it because I was suddenly gaining back health that I hadn't even been aware that I had lost. For the first time in my life, I wasn't dealing with constant stomach pain, gurgling, gas (which keto had already reduced), etc. Over the next few months, I eventually lost my allergies. I lost my allergies! I didn't even know that was possible! It resulted in many small little differences that made me feel good. When I have strayed, which has been rare, it always brings back these problems. Some return quicker than others, and usually my wife is begging me to go back to meat-only because she loves the non-gassy me.
Could it be that vegetables were anti-health? That they were causing me to be ill, or at the very least preventing me from regaining my health? Over time, I have come to my own conclusions regarding the answers to those questions. I suggest everyone else come to their own.
How
Eat meat.
Drink water.
Alright, that's easy enough to say, but hard in practice. First, start out simply with a fixed time period. Go for at least 4 weeks, but not more than 6. Keep it short and reasonable. Commit to sticking with it 100% for that time period. No cheats, no breaks, no exceptions. Keep track of how you feel.
FAQ
What this is not
I, FIT_Goat, am a strict carnivore. This means that I eat little, to no, plants. All of my energy (calories) and nutrients come from animals or animal products. I believe plants can be used for seasoning and or medicine, but they aren't meant to be used for attempting to meet energy or nutrient goals.
The Basics
These are a modification of the basic ideas set forth by a guy known as Owsley "the Bear" Stanley. He ate the way I do for over 50 years, before dying in a car accident (not of scurvy, malnutrition, or heart attack). Not every carnivore adheres to the same "rules" as I do. Some allow artificial sweeteners. Some don't do dairy. Some count calories, macros, and track their carbs. Some do bone broth, some eat raw meat, some eat organ meats. None of that's really necessary, but it makes some people feel better.1) Eat only from the animal world (meat, eggs, high-fat/low-carb dairy).
2) Calories and macros are not important, nor is the number of meals/day.
3) Eat nothing from the vegetable world whatsoever (very small amounts of spices may be added, they are not ‘food’).
4) Drink mostly water, coffee, or tea. Drink nothing sweetened in any way. Alcohol (liquor and wine) may be consumed carefully and at your own discretion.
5) You do not need any supplements of any kind.
Why?
This is the biggest question people ask. Each person is different. Many people assume we just don't like vegetables. I like most vegetables. I even used to be a vegetarian. I spent most of my life convinced that the lack of perfect health was probably due to eating too few vegetables. When starting this way of eating, I started with one basic belief.
"My body wants to be healthy and in shape."
Your body wants to be in shape, too. My body was struggling to get healthy because of things I was eating. When I ate lots of carbs, my body couldn't get excess weight off. Reducing the carbs led to obvious results in my weight. My health also improved, commensurate with the lost weight, and I felt great. For all I knew, things were ideal. I didn't even know I needed to do anything else.
I started this out of curiosity. Could I do it? Would I die? I read a book that said it was possible, but could it be real? But, I quickly stuck to it because I was suddenly gaining back health that I hadn't even been aware that I had lost. For the first time in my life, I wasn't dealing with constant stomach pain, gurgling, gas (which keto had already reduced), etc. Over the next few months, I eventually lost my allergies. I lost my allergies! I didn't even know that was possible! It resulted in many small little differences that made me feel good. When I have strayed, which has been rare, it always brings back these problems. Some return quicker than others, and usually my wife is begging me to go back to meat-only because she loves the non-gassy me.
Could it be that vegetables were anti-health? That they were causing me to be ill, or at the very least preventing me from regaining my health? Over time, I have come to my own conclusions regarding the answers to those questions. I suggest everyone else come to their own.
How
Eat meat.
Drink water.
Alright, that's easy enough to say, but hard in practice. First, start out simply with a fixed time period. Go for at least 4 weeks, but not more than 6. Keep it short and reasonable. Commit to sticking with it 100% for that time period. No cheats, no breaks, no exceptions. Keep track of how you feel.
- Pick a goal time frame (4-6 weeks)
Your goal is to make it the whole time with no cheats. You don't make any breaks or exceptions during this time. - Eat fatty meat and plenty of it.
- Coffee and tea are probably fine. I couldn't quit it all at once.
FAQ
- What about the carbs in {eggs, cheese, cream, seafood, etc.}?
Each person is different in regards to this, but most of us do not count anything. This includes carbs from these foods. If I eat a dozen eggs, and I just might, I don't count the carbs. Sure, it's like 7g of carbs, which is over the 5g that most consider the limit for this. I might eat a bunch of liver, which can contain a lot. It doesn't matter. I ignore those carbs. I am a little more considerate about carbs from dairy, but that is because dairy tends to stall me worse than almost everything else. - What about vitamin C?
You don't need it when eating fresh meat. Don't try to live off canned ham, or do something else silly like that. You can cook your meat. I would recommend that you don't cook it to death. But, I do know people who eat almost only well-cooked hamburger and do just fine. - How do you poop?
Uhm, same as you do. I don't need fiber. Things work out just fine with enough fat in your diet. Actually, I experience less problems with constipation and irregularity than before. - But what about the planet?
Pasture restores the soil and is healthy for the earth. Modern agriculture destroys the soil. On top of that, much of the land that can be used to raise meat is unsuitable for growing the monocrops that we think of as "healthy." - Can I drink alcohol?
It is not recommended. If you choose to drink, stick to the low-carb beverages. Most wines are fine and liquors also. - What about artificial sweeteners?
This is a hotly debated topic and people are considered carnivore who end up on both sides of this. My [Goat's] opinion is that a preference for sweetness causes more temptation and a more difficult time succeeding at being a carnivore. For this reason, you really should go cold-turkey and not allow any sweetness. It doesn't matter if that sweetness has a carb or calorie count attached to it. I saw no sweeteners at all would be ideal. After that, the sweeteners that are not sugar-alcohols would be second best. Sugar alcohols frequently do contain carbs that affect blood sugar. But, all sweet things keep the cravings for sweet things alive.
I confess, I do sometimes allow myself a diet cola (usually when eating out). But, it is very rare, because I do find that I am more tempted by carbs after I have been drinking diet cola. - How do you not go over on protein?
First, I don't count protein. So, I don't go over. If you do track protein, you won't really find it changes much at all.
Say you have a goal:- 100 grams of protein
- 147 grams of fat
- 20 grams of carbs
- (1800 calories a day)
This is roughly 73% / 22% / 5% and is pretty typical.
You cut those vegetable carbs out. Now you need to make up 80 calories? Where do you get 80 calories? How about a large egg?
You're now at:- 106 grams of protein
- 153 grams of fat
- 0.6 grams of carbs
- (1800 calories a day)
Your protein macro barely changed at all! And, we haven't even considered that the vegetables probably contributed some protein.
Spinach nutrition found online:- 20 grams of protein
- 0 grams of fat
- 20 grams of carbs (30 grams - 10 grams of fiber)
The 20 net carbs from spinach probably had 20 grams of protein in there with them. That is 80 calories of protein and 80 calories from carbs. Swap those 160 calories for 2 eggs, what have you done?
2 eggs nutrition:- 12 grams of protein
- 12 grams of fat
- 1.2 grams of carbs
Swapping the spinach for 2 eggs brings your macros to 79.3% / 20.4% / 0.3%... that's even better than before. You've reduced the actual amount of protein you're eating!
**[Package of pictsweet frozen spinach that had nutrition label of 0 grams fat, 3 grams carbs, 1 gram fiber, and 2 grams protein used for the above calculations] - What about the cost?
Per calorie, low-carb vegetables are horrible on your wallet. A quick google says that a pound of frozen spinach will get you about 140 calories. You're doing really good to get that for $1. I think the generic at my local store is around $2 for a pound or it might be 12 oz. How many calories can $1 of eggs get you? Well, let's pretend that eggs are not on sale and cost $3 a dozen. Even at this inflated price, you're getting 280-320 calories per dollar. That's less than half the price per calorie! I can usually get eggs for $2 a dozen when not buying them in bulk and almost as cheap as $1.50 a dozen when buying 5+ dozen at a time. Don't think of it as a "volume of food" consideration. By volume, low-carb friendly vegetables are cheap. But, by nutrition and calories, they're very expensive. My food expenses went down when I stopped buying vegetables.
What this is not
- This is not for everyone
There are some people who are just not happy with the lack of variety on this way of eating. Some people also struggle with the social aspects of eating this way. Very few, if any, people around you will understand or agree with how you eat. You will have to deal with all sorts of opposition. - This is not extreme keto
While this way of eating is naturally ketogenic, ketosis is a side-effect and not a primary goal of eating this way. You won't normally be in a deeper state of ketosis than eating keto. We don't attempt to manipulate these levels or eat in a way that increases them. - This is not better than keto or other low-carb plans
Extreme is not better. It isn't worse either. This is just different. Someone eating meat only isn't better at low-carb than people eating plants also. In some respects, I think we're worse at low-carb. I am worse at self-control when it comes to sweet foods (even artificially sweet ones). I am worse at weighing and counting things as a regular habit. I am worse at tracking details. I am worse at convincing people that low-carb is a reasonable way to eat.
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Replies
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The only thing stopping me from giving carnivore a trial is the extra cost that it would create since I basically use cheap veggies as filler and the fact that when I eat too much protein my belly hates me. I obviously have some digestive issues with it that I need to work out.
I realize that it's still high fat and not necessarily high protein. But it just doesn't seem to take much to cause my trouble.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The only thing stopping me from giving carnivore a trial is the extra cost that it would create since I basically use cheap veggies as filler and the fact that when I eat too much protein my belly hates me. I obviously have some digestive issues with it that I need to work out.
I realize that it's still high fat and not necessarily high protein. But it just doesn't seem to take much to cause my trouble.
Per calorie, low-carb vegetables are horrible on your wallet. A quick google says that a pound of frozen spinach will get you about 140 calories. You're doing really good to get that for $1. I think the generic at my local store is around $2 for a pound or it might be 12 oz. How many calories can $1 of eggs get you? Well, let's pretend that eggs are not on sale and cost $3 a dozen. Even at this inflated price, you're getting 280-320 calories per dollar. That's more than half the price per calorie! I can usually get eggs for $2 a dozen when not buying them in bulk and almost as cheap as $1.50 a dozen when buying 5+ dozen at a time.
Don't think of it as a "volume of food" consideration. By volume, low-carb friendly vegetables are cheap. But, by nutrition and calories, they're very expensive. My food expenses went down when I stopped buying vegetables. The amount of meat I consume isn't much more than I would have consumed otherwise.
The volume of food you eat may be smaller, but you'll find you feel full easier and quicker. The missing vegetables aren't really replaced by anything. And, if you wanted, an extra tablespoon of butter more than covers the missing calories without any extra protein to mess you up. And, butter is a heck of a lot better than broccoli.
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Tonight I made fish, so not a good example really. But for the whole 4 fillets that I blackened, I used almost and entire stick of butter and poured the pan drippings onto mine.
I also made broccoli and had some romaine available too in case I felt like I was still hungry.
I ate the fish first so that I wouldn't fill up on broccoli which also had butter on it. But, in the end, I needed a little salad to top it off too. There wasn't anymore fish so I couldn't just have more of that in this case.
I'm going to try eating the meat first with extra fats for a while and see if I can cut back on the "fillers"
I am a calorie counter
having not lost any new weight since October and that specifically being my goal makes it very difficult to not consider that. So that's my other issue. Veg is cheap, low calorie filler. And I'm already buying it anyway cuz the fam wants it.
Anyway, I'm going to attempt to eat meat and fats first for a while and see if I am in need of the rest. All while not increasing protein unless it seems to be digesting comfortably.
I do love butter!0 -
Great summary @FIT_Goat . I thought we need green leafies for vit C. Interesting! Thxs for sharing.
My doctor specialised in nutrition, choosing that after being a pharmacist and seeing symptoms not causes being treated. No i have not asked him re vit C. He mentioned that he has patients that are vegetarian who run marathons whilst others try being vegetarian and get really unhealthy when they dont eat meat. I wonder if carnivore is the same, some people will thrive n others may see less benefits. Love to hear experience from others. Me I usually eat ~300g green leafy veg a day, plus meat, butter and cream. Feeling healthy n energized.1 -
I believe in Vitamin C but I don't think you have to have it to stay healthy and that the RDA amount is so low anyway, why bother?
I supplement 6000mg a day, but not because I think I NEED it. I just think it has a medicinal like immune boosting purpose.0 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ I hear you re volume fillers. I am trialing BPC right now, trying to skew balance to fat. Liquid fat calories. I get less hungry if I have solid food with same calories or even less (more protein than fat).0
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Do you think the weight came off because you are eating less total calories then when you were vegetarian?0
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ArielEveHealth wrote: »Do you think the weight came off because you are eating less total calories then when you were vegetarian?
I am eating 2,700 calories a day when weight stable. My calorie goal was never that high as a vegetarian, although I may have hit it. Eating this way, I have lost weight eating 2200 calories of just meat. I have gained weight eating 1800 calories after calorie restricting myself down to a similar weight.
So, no, I don't think it is the total calories.1 -
@FIT_Goat Thanks for sharing. I find it fascinating...and tempting. I really appreciate the time that you took to lay out your plan and the ROI.
I am going to give it more thought.0 -
Looks like Meativore May might become an annual thing. 1
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It is very interesting, and hearing about your journey helps. Thank you Mr. Goat!0
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My main stumbling block to trying a carnivorous diet is coconut. I like coconut oil or some coconut cream in my coffee. I can't do dairy every day, it just doesn't agree with me enough for that.
I am a believer in the benefits of MCTs so I wouldn't want to give up such a good fat. I suppose I could include that...
Hmmm. Coconut carnivore....
Well. You all got me thinking about this again. I love how this board gets me to question my dietary choices. Thank you. 3 -
My main stumbling block to trying a carnivorous diet is coconut. I like coconut oil or some coconut cream in my coffee. I can't do dairy every day, it just doesn't agree with me enough for that.
I am a believer in the benefits of MCTs so I wouldn't want to give up such a good fat. I suppose I could include that...
Ironically, goat milk has about 30-35% mct... so if you're looking to keep your medium chain fatty acids and go lacto-carnivore, that might be a good option for you.1 -
I think coconut oil is one of the less harmful plant fats. I even use it sometimes myself, mostly because I have a bunch left over from my keto days. I don't think it's ideal, but it's also not the end of the world.1
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Interesting! Thanks guys.
More thinking.....0 -
I do not eat a mainly meat diet; however, my tdee changes drastically eating keto vs standard American diet. I definitely can eat more calories to maintain my weight.0
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Looks like Meativore May might become an annual thing.
I second this!!0 -
This is very interesting and I am very sure I am going give this a try. Like you said for 4 weeks straight and see how my body does.0
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This is really interesting, I actually hate most vegetables but force myself to eat them sometimes for two reasons: 1. We're told it's essential for health and 2. I grew up learning that a meal is meat or fish plus veg. So I love the idea of ditching the veg but wonder what my meals would be without them. Any tips on what to serve with different types of meat? I've tried serving eggs as a side dish which worked well but would get boring quickly.0
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melmerritt33 wrote: »This is really interesting, I actually hate most vegetables but force myself to eat them sometimes for two reasons: 1. We're told it's essential for health and 2. I grew up learning that a meal is meat or fish plus veg. So I love the idea of ditching the veg but wonder what my meals would be without them. Any tips on what to serve with different types of meat? I've tried serving eggs as a side dish which worked well but would get boring quickly.
More meat.
Seriously, one of the selling points is the simplicity and not having to worry about sides.0 -
LOL, that's the obvious answer of course, I'm just so ingrained with the "serve something else with meat" idea that it seems weird to think of just serving more meat. But I love meat so much I'd probably enjoy my meals more, now thinking about what to buy for dinner tomorrow using just meat, yum!1
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I usually don't have a side with my meat. I might have eggs, cheese, or wings as a side. But, usually it is just a steak by itself.3 -
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Well, I did pretty good today with meat and fat first until dinner...
I made the most amazing bacon cheeseburgers. I bought GOOD smoked, uncured bacon. I bought good fatty ground beef.
I loaded it up with a few sautéed mushrooms and a good amount of butter and mayo. I ate it all (1/3lb) then still felt like I wanted a small amount of the zucchini and peppers I cooked in garlic and butter. Fail...
But dang! I'm stuffed!0 -
Definitely gonna give this some thought. Maybe will try during Feb.0
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I tried meativore may last year and haven't looked back. But as he mentioned, there are different strokes for different folks. I do mostly meat and most days are only meat. I will eat salad though when we go out for dinner when it's a social thing. I'm simply not going to fork out the dough for one steak and not eat the sides. So it ends up more filling to eat a chicken ceasar salad without the croutons. I sometimes go a bit nutty after eating only meat and eggs for a few months and just need something else. so, a salad it is. But I'd say at least 25 days a month are just pure carnivore as he described.
It works for me for several of the same reasons too. I suck at tracking and counting. I hate cooking and deciding and planning. I cook a big bunch of meat and eat the same meat all week, whenever I'm hungry. No planning. What meat do I eat? Whatever was on sale that week. Easy peasy.
I do have coffee with butter. I have butter cubed up in the fridge like you would see sugar cubes. I make the coffee into the cup of the magic bullet, pop in a few cubes of butter, whiz it up and voila! Frothy, creamy coffee.
I do however, take planned hops off the wagon for select holidays and social gathering. But I do pay DEARLY for it. Mentally, physically. When I deviate my allergies also return and my asthma returns with a vengeance! Depression, lethargy and anxiety quickly follow. Not to mention bloating and muscle fatigue. Whew! Why would I eat any other way? Because once I jump off the wagon, the rest of the foods are like cocaine. Bread is crack and candy is like meth amphatamines. I mean I could seriously eat myself to death and I was well on my way until FIT-goat provided the final piece to the puzzle with his carnivore lifestyle.
I say, if you're at all curious, give it a go. You can always go back, or make up your own rules that work for you.
@FIT_Goat I like what you wrote. A great intro to what it is and isn't. Succinct and clear! Thank you!1 -
The adjustment to not having "sides" has been easy for me. I do see my hubby looking for things to go with his. Is usually some pimento cheese, egg salad, or something like that. It seems he feels he has to have something else with his meat. I'm happy with meat and butter, lol!0
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Seems the "high fat/low carb dairy" rule is at odds with the "macros are not important" rule?0
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Looks like Meativore May might become an annual thing.
^^ I agree!
Last year Meativore May was such an extreme experience for me! As a former vegetarian I was very skeptic about trying it but I had amazing results. Now when I feel a bit under or go over carbs and start having cravings I go back to meat-only for a few days and it resets my metabolism.
My only reason for not being a carnivore full time is that I still don't like meat, lol. But I can see a time in the future when I will do it, because my body clearly loves meat and I love the way eating only meat makes me feel and the simplicity of it all.
Same as I no longer crave grains in any form -and that was my favourite food-, I'm hoping that my body will teach my brain to want less endives, celery and fruit (I eat mostly blueberries but I still miss all other fruits). Still, one meativore month is something I look forward to repeat.
Who knows, maybe I'll even like bacon someday!
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