Want to be a fat burner? Exercise!
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I would expect that a fat adapted, non elite athlete being compared to a carb eating, non elite athlete would show a similar difference in fat burning ability. Why would it not? Right?
Ah, but what is this mysterious process of "fat adaptation?"
Muscles regularly burn fat. That's why everybody talks about the "fat burning zone." So what would make that rate double? And what would cause the zone to increase for higher exertion levels?
The answer is oxidative stress in a low-glucose environment. I.e., you only get the boost if you stress your muscles anaerobically. For runners, that means running a little faster than a "jog."
It ain't a passive process. You will only get this benefit by exercising.0 -
That's abundantly clear by those graphs! Maybe it'll help me to kick my own booty into gear finally.
I definitely don't see myself a runner. Hopefully, it will at least be a similar response with other types of activity.0 -
Yeah, any activity that hits the muscle glycogen stores. How do you know? Panting. Catching your breath. Inability to hold a conversation during exertion. Those are sure signs of anaerobic metabolism.0
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Yeah, any activity that hits the muscle glycogen stores. How do you know? Panting. Catching your breath. Inability to hold a conversation during exertion. Those are sure signs of anaerobic metabolism.
Well, I just experienced that with my planking! Lol
Now I just need to do something similar for another 15-20 minutes.
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KetoGirl83 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Omg! Why does everything in the universe constantly keep telling me that I need to exercise at this point if I want to keep making progress?!?!
Quit telling me what I am trying so hard to ignore darn you!
I just cannot find any joy in any exercise. I don't wanna do not fun stuff! Ugh!
Sadly, this is me too. All exercise "gurus" say "find something fun". Reading is fun, watching the clouds move is fun, exercise is not fun, sorry.
What I found less difficult for me:
1. I got a mini trampoline and just go there and bounce for a few minutes now and then when I'm home. I have it on the balcony so that counts as going out too.
2. I love to dance so if I feel energetic enough I follow bollywood workouts, at least until I get too exhausted to move (which sometimes is little past the warm up routine). It's so silly that it doesn't feel like exercise if done occasionally but I'm yet to be able to schedule it.
3. I was once a certified Yoga teacher so I reintroduced the practice very slowly. It makes me sad how far my mobility deteriorated but I would like to be able to do at least the basic routines.
4. I program visits to museums or other attractions that force me to walk. I need a "reason" to walk, a carrot to keep me interested.
But still, what I would like would be to be able to disconnect my mind from my body and have the body exercising while my mind was occupied with more interesting things (that's why the museums work for me, I can easily walk the whole afternoon and only notice I'm exhausted when I leave).
Anyone ever tried one of those Vibraslim plates? Something like this: https://youtu.be/SXqvW-EZ4Do
It looks like the kind of passive exercise I'd do while watching TV without much effort but the machines are very expensive and I hesitate to buy one only to find that's all hype.
One of the reasons I signed up to become a professional grocery shopper (yes, it's a thing; it's for a grocery delivery service that sources the groceries from grocery stores) is the "cardio" exercise while keeping my brain occupied and while making money.
I had a busy night last Thursday, and my Fitbit recorded a TDEE of about 3,200 calories for that day, which amounts to 2,700 intake for a 1lb/week deficit. Plus, I made about $70 in that time.
What I also was doing for a while, until my son's school schedule screwed with it, is going for a walk at lunch time and listening to Podcasts while doing it. For a while, I had hour-long Podcasts, which made it easy to gauge the time I'd been walking without actually looking at a clock. The Podcasts kept my mind occupied, while my feet did the walking. 0 -
KetoGirl83 wrote: »
Sadly, this is me too. All exercise "gurus" say "find something fun". Reading is fun, watching the clouds move is fun, exercise is not fun, sorry.
2. I love to dance so if I feel energetic enough I follow bollywood workouts, at least until I get too exhausted to move (which sometimes is little past the warm up routine). It's so silly that it doesn't feel like exercise if done occasionally but I'm yet to be able to schedule it.
4. I program visits to museums or other attractions that force me to walk. I need a "reason" to walk, a carrot to keep me interested.
There's lots to work with here! If you love to dance, you don;t have to follow dance "workouts"... GO DANCING! Join a group, take some lessons, get out a few times a week and do it! Enjoy yourself!
As far as museums/attractions... great! Find a lovely place to walk. A part of town with interesting old buildings, or an area with interesting landscapes, gardens, parks, anywhere you can enjoy looking around and taking in the scenery while you're getting your exercise.
You dont' have to feel like you're a hamster running on a wheel just for the sake of running. Get out and enjoy yourself and let the exercise part just happen.
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I think this is all interesting information, but most of us here are not elite athletes with the ability to run at a decent pace for 3 hours. Keep in mind that we are all individual biological creatures that adapt to our differing environments. My intent is not to discount the information provided, but to take it with a grain of salt.
An elite athlete would use nutrients in a different way than most of us as their body composition is much different and how their bodies have adapted to use fuel may be a bit different as well. A thoroughbred is indeed a horse, but a much different animal than what we'd find walking around in a farmer's field.
I personally have worked out for decades, but when I started keto 2 years ago I found I had to change my workouts to increase my weight loss. I actually saw greater results with lower intensity cardio. I also lift heavy 3 days a week and that has not changed. I found that my weight loss would stall with intense 30 minute cardio workouts 3 times per week. I now do lower intensity 20 minute cardio 3 times per week and have increased results. All of this is regardless of calorie intake. My macros are 5% carb 20% protien 75% fat.0 -
I actually saw greater results with lower intensity cardio.
That's exactly what these results predict.
It has nothing to do with elite athletes. Both groups were elite athletes. Only the low-carbers burned much more fat, and they were running at low intensity. You don't have to run for 3 hours. The increased rate of burn started immediately.
You may need more intense exercise for fat-adaptation, at least according to previous studies. This particular study only shows the results of fat-adaptation vs sugar-adaptation.
Oxidative stress will stimulate mitochondrial biogenesis in all humans. But the character of the mitochondria and the particular mix of enzymes will differ for low-carb and high-carb humans.0 -
Oh boy, I push myself to walk 10 miles everyday, with barely any results to show for it... I'm getting closer and closer to joining the gym and start concentrating on lifting weights, just gotta find some motivation!!0
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Omg! Why does everything in the universe constantly keep telling me that I need to exercise at this point if I want to keep making progress?!?!
Quit telling me what I am trying so hard to ignore darn you!
I just cannot find any joy in any exercise. I don't wanna do not fun stuff! Ugh!
I just finished a book by Chris Cowley and Henry Lodge called "Younger Next Year for Women." Apparently their first book "Younger Next Year" sold a zillion copies; this one is pretty much the same information but tweaked for us ladies.
You probably don't want to read either one because it spells out in horrendous detail what happens to us later in life if we don't exercise. It ain't pretty. Their bottom line: even if you can't find some form of movement that you enjoy, suck it up and do it anyway. That is, unless your idea of fun is spending your last decade or so as a housebound invalid with fragile bones, memory issues, incontinence and a chronic backache. That's if you're lucky enough actually to be at home and not in some nursing institution.
Exercise isn't about making progress with our weight loss. It's about living the life we want right up to the end.
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Well, this is certainly motivation to exercise more. lol.
Sunny_Bunny - if you enjoy walking, check out Leslie Sansone walk at home videos. This is one of the least painful exercise videos in my opinion. I alternate those with strength workouts.0 -
mandycat223 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Omg! Why does everything in the universe constantly keep telling me that I need to exercise at this point if I want to keep making progress?!?!
Quit telling me what I am trying so hard to ignore darn you!
I just cannot find any joy in any exercise. I don't wanna do not fun stuff! Ugh!
I just finished a book by Chris Cowley and Henry Lodge called "Younger Next Year for Women." Apparently their first book "Younger Next Year" sold a zillion copies; this one is pretty much the same information but tweaked for us ladies.
You probably don't want to read either one because it spells out in horrendous detail what happens to us later in life if we don't exercise. It ain't pretty. Their bottom line: even if you can't find some form of movement that you enjoy, suck it up and do it anyway. That is, unless your idea of fun is spending your last decade or so as a housebound invalid with fragile bones, memory issues, incontinence and a chronic backache. That's if you're lucky enough actually to be at home and not in some nursing institution.
Exercise isn't about making progress with our weight loss. It's about living the life we want right up to the end.
I know that's true and I do go through periods when I'm pretty good. I just go through an equal amount of periods when I'm bad. So so bad.Well, this is certainly motivation to exercise more. lol.
Sunny_Bunny - if you enjoy walking, check out Leslie Sansone walk at home videos. This is one of the least painful exercise videos in my opinion. I alternate those with strength workouts.
I did get the most enjoyment from a morning walk that I started last August. But it started getting colder and I just can't... I hate cold! It doesn't even have to be all that cold either. 50's and I'm out for sure. Low 60's an I'm hesitant. Lol
I've never been a fan of videos but I think I need to buckle down like @mandycat223 said and "suck it up". That's how I deal with other things I needed to get control of. This is my biggest hurdle so far.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Oh boy, I push myself to walk 10 miles everyday, with barely any results to show for it... I'm getting closer and closer to joining the gym and start concentrating on lifting weights, just gotta find some motivation!!
Might want to research HIIT first, and see if that appeals to you.0 -
@mandycat223 I am highly motivated by scare tactics. Finding my walking shoes now... 0
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Let's try to quantify this for the average low-carber. For the LC athletes, peak fat oxidation was 1.5g/min and it occurred at 70% VO2max. For the HC athletes, peak fat oxidation was 0.7g/min at 55% VO2max.
Since we can't easily measure VO2, let's convert from heart rate:
http://www.shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/heart-rate-and-percent-vo2max-conversion-calculator.aspx
For an old guy like me, 70% VO2max = 140 bpm. That is a VERY relaxed jog for me. My typical 3 mile run (like today) is at an average HR of 150+. So we're talking about a maximum fat burn rate at your "forever" pace.
If I were high-carb, my max fat burning HR would be about 125. That's a walking pace.
So, let's burn off a pound of fat. That's about 400g (1 lb=450g, fat tissue is 90% lipid).
LC guy would have to run 266 minutes. 4.5 hours. So, for me, I could lose 1 lb of fat by slowly jogging 30 minutes a day for 9 days.
Or, I could eat more carbs and walk for 9.5 hours. 30 minutes a day for 19 days.
Basically, low carb saves me 10 days of exercise for every pound of fat I burn. 0 -
mandycat223 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Omg! Why does everything in the universe constantly keep telling me that I need to exercise at this point if I want to keep making progress?!?!
Quit telling me what I am trying so hard to ignore darn you!
I just cannot find any joy in any exercise. I don't wanna do not fun stuff! Ugh!
I just finished a book by Chris Cowley and Henry Lodge called "Younger Next Year for Women." Apparently their first book "Younger Next Year" sold a zillion copies; this one is pretty much the same information but tweaked for us ladies.
You probably don't want to read either one because it spells out in horrendous detail what happens to us later in life if we don't exercise. It ain't pretty. Their bottom line: even if you can't find some form of movement that you enjoy, suck it up and do it anyway. That is, unless your idea of fun is spending your last decade or so as a housebound invalid with fragile bones, memory issues, incontinence and a chronic backache. That's if you're lucky enough actually to be at home and not in some nursing institution.
Exercise isn't about making progress with our weight loss. It's about living the life we want right up to the end.
I put a hold on that book. It looks good. Thank you.
I am another who exercises only sporadically. I used to be better about it but I find I need at least a month, preferably two, of exercise without interruption in my schedule before I really start looking forward to exercise. Getting to that point is my problem.
I was like that for weight loss too. If I can lose 15+lbs in a go I can usually keep going but if I stop before 10 lbs are lost (and there is more to go) I tend to stop my efforts.
@wabmester I like those numbers! 0 -
Let's try to quantify this for the average low-carber. For the LC athletes, peak fat oxidation was 1.5g/min and it occurred at 70% VO2max. For the HC athletes, peak fat oxidation was 0.7g/min at 55% VO2max.
Since we can't easily measure VO2, let's convert from heart rate:
http://www.shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/heart-rate-and-percent-vo2max-conversion-calculator.aspx
For an old guy like me, 70% VO2max = 140 bpm. That is a VERY relaxed jog for me. My typical 3 mile run (like today) is at an average HR of 150+. So we're talking about a maximum fat burn rate at your "forever" pace.
If I were high-carb, my max fat burning HR would be about 125. That's a walking pace.
So, let's burn off a pound of fat. That's about 400g (1 lb=450g, fat tissue is 90% lipid).
LC guy would have to run 266 minutes. 4.5 hours. So, for me, I could lose 1 lb of fat by slowly jogging 30 minutes a day for 9 days.
Or, I could eat more carbs and walk for 9.5 hours. 30 minutes a day for 19 days.
Basically, low carb saves me 10 days of exercise for every pound of fat I burn.
I love this explanation! I think i could work up to a slow jog and maintain 30 minutes once I get started again. When I was walking very regularly this summer, I would be walking as fast as I could but was focusing more on going further each time and on how I long I stayed out. If my target time was 30 minutes but at a more aggressive pace, I might be able to make that work better. I need to develop new routines.
Thanks for this info. It's very helpful for me, as someone that finds specifically being active for the sake of being active very difficult, it's the undeniable evidence that I just can't excuse away.0 -
@wabmester Thank you so much for this.0
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Christine_72 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »@auntstephie321, your body is designed to provide you with all the fat you need. Every gram of fat you eat is a gram less of body fat that you'll burn
@wabmester Am I reading this right?? It comes across as eat less fat to burn more fat.
This is why people say to eat until satisfied, but not til full.
And that you don't HAVE TO meet the fat goal. But, it's still important to get enough... You shouldn't be hungry on low carb. If you are, you're probably not eating enough fat or enough in general. Could be one or the other... Or even both.
Yeah true. I've often seen people grumbling that they can't hit their fat goal without shoveling in more food even though they're not hungry...
That's been part of my problem. Trying to find enough fat to eat to meet my "daily requirements". I have more problems keeping the calories in check because I can eat lots of meat. I'm still new to this and working on changing eating habits/listening to my body. I also though we were supposed to eat a lot of fat (within the parameters given) to help the body burn fat. Now I see every gram I eat is less my body will burn? Well, I can eat a lot of protein and a lot less fat but all the formulas say to do it opposite. Is that just for satiety purposes or to train your body to burn fat? Once to that point should you greatly reduce fat if it doesn't bother satiety in order to burn a lot more fat? Now I'm all mixed up
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I hate running, no matter how hard I try to "love it" LOL.
I bought one of the Just Dance games for the Xbox One and occasionally do it, but um, I have the rhythm of a drunk moose having a seizure. At least I amuse my husband and despite doing the moves all wrong I work up my heart rate and a good sweat! Also tried Zumba World Fitness. My hips just can't move like that LOL. I'm hoping after I drop another 30 lbs I'll get more, I don't know, limber?
Since getting back into the swing of things after going off the rails at the Holidays, I've been switching up my workouts to keep it interesting. I walk on breaks, walk to lunch, park in the back 40 while out and about, walk my dogs one day, ride my bike one day, dance one day, zumba another day, etc. I'm making sure I get at least 30 min of activity in a day in some fashion. I've noticed that the scale isn't moving much faster than it was pre Thanksgiving, but I'm down loads more inches. Fat is definitely being burned somewhere.0 -
ruffneck813 wrote: »Is that just for satiety purposes or to train your body to burn fat? Once to that point should you greatly reduce fat if it doesn't bother satiety in order to burn a lot more fat? Now I'm all mixed up
I guess this is why, to me, it's important to have a mental framework of how this works. What are you using for guidance?
The "eat fat to burn fat" is nonsense in my mind. Yes, you'll burn fat, but you'll first burn dietary fat. However, if you just eat enough to reach satiety, most people will spontaneously reduce calories, and that will cause them to burn body fat.
So in my mental model, it doesn't make sense to reach a fat target or a fat/protein ratio. But if it makes sense to you, try it before you change your model.
One thing increased dietary fat will probably do is increase ketone levels, so if that's important to you, then you should keep fat intake high.0 -
ruffneck813 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »@auntstephie321, your body is designed to provide you with all the fat you need. Every gram of fat you eat is a gram less of body fat that you'll burn
@wabmester Am I reading this right?? It comes across as eat less fat to burn more fat.
This is why people say to eat until satisfied, but not til full.
And that you don't HAVE TO meet the fat goal. But, it's still important to get enough... You shouldn't be hungry on low carb. If you are, you're probably not eating enough fat or enough in general. Could be one or the other... Or even both.
Yeah true. I've often seen people grumbling that they can't hit their fat goal without shoveling in more food even though they're not hungry...
That's been part of my problem. Trying to find enough fat to eat to meet my "daily requirements". I have more problems keeping the calories in check because I can eat lots of meat. I'm still new to this and working on changing eating habits/listening to my body. I also though we were supposed to eat a lot of fat (within the parameters given) to help the body burn fat. Now I see every gram I eat is less my body will burn? Well, I can eat a lot of protein and a lot less fat but all the formulas say to do it opposite. Is that just for satiety purposes or to train your body to burn fat? Once to that point should you greatly reduce fat if it doesn't bother satiety in order to burn a lot more fat? Now I'm all mixed up
Eat carbs to grams.
Eat protein range to grams (for LBM, height, and activity level).
Fill what's left of your intake (calories) with fat.
Don't cut out fat, as you should get plenty of healthy fats in your diet, but you don't need to go overboard on it if you aren't hungry.
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How do i figure out my 70% VO2max? I guess I'm wondering if I'm working out at the right heart rate.0
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Episode 10 of Keto talk covered this very well in the last half of the episode. I was listening to it thinking "wow, that's how everyone needs to have the fat and protein thing explained to them"
I highly recommend it.0 -
annalisbeth74 wrote: »How do i figure out my 70% VO2max? I guess I'm wondering if I'm working out at the right heart rate.
I don't think there's really a right HR -- I was just using a couple known data points they gave in the study. Everybody had peak fat oxidation at a slightly different VO2.
But you can estimate your %VO2max by plugging your age and HR into this calc:
http://www.shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/heart-rate-and-percent-vo2max-conversion-calculator.aspx
Just play with the HR until it gives you the target %VO2max you want.0 -
@wabmester - Interesting. According to that calculator, my HR for my last couple of runs was on the high side for this. It creates an interesting dilemma. I want to continue to push myself when I run, so that I can get in better shape and hopefully one day go back to half marathons, but I also don't want to miss the peak fat oxidation window. Maybe a mixture of high intensity and medium intensity workouts? I think I need to read the study again.
@Sunny_Bunny_ I'll have to check that out. I've never heard of keto talk.0 -
I run at a variety of paces. You'll burn fat whenever you run, so don't worry too much about the peak fat oxidation rate.
This study only shows the difference between high-carb athletes and low-carb athletes, but keep in mind that all of the low-carbers are already fat-adapted.
The study doesn't tell you how to become fat-adapted, but as I mentioned earlier, it's not a passive process. You don't simply stay low-carb for 4 weeks and you're there. It requires exercise intense enough to stimulate new mitochondria to grow in your muscle cells. The signal for them to grow is thought to be reactive oxygen species. That comes from anaerobic metabolism.
So the signal for fat-adaptation in muscles is HIGH intensity exercise while you're low carb.
Once you have that adaptation, then you'll burn fat at a higher rate at ALL intensities, with the peak at around 70% VO2max (moderate intensity).0 -
annalisbeth74 wrote: »@wabmester - Interesting. According to that calculator, my HR for my last couple of runs was on the high side for this. It creates an interesting dilemma. I want to continue to push myself when I run, so that I can get in better shape and hopefully one day go back to half marathons, but I also don't want to miss the peak fat oxidation window. Maybe a mixture of high intensity and medium intensity workouts? I think I need to read the study again.
@Sunny_Bunny_ I'll have to check that out. I've never heard of keto talk.
Do listen. A must-hear for those learning the ketogenic WOE.
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baconslave wrote: »ruffneck813 wrote: »
Eat carbs to grams.
Eat protein range to grams (for LBM, height, and activity level).
Fill what's left of your intake (calories) with fat.
Don't cut out fat, as you should get plenty of healthy fats in your diet, but you don't need to go overboard on it if you aren't hungry.
That's what I thought I was supposed to be doing for this. I've been following really well I think and keeping the carbs below 20 grams total most days and always below 30. I just got worried when I saw the post saying the body is going to burn fat taken in gram for gram before fat that is already present.0 -
The study doesn't tell you how to become fat-adapted, but as I mentioned earlier, it's not a passive process. You don't simply stay low-carb for 4 weeks and you're there. It requires exercise intense enough to stimulate new mitochondria to grow in your muscle cells. The signal for them to grow is thought to be reactive oxygen species. That comes from anaerobic metabolism.
So the signal for fat-adaptation in muscles is HIGH intensity exercise while you're low carb.
Once you have that adaptation, then you'll burn fat at a higher rate at ALL intensities, with the peak at around 70% VO2max (moderate intensity).
Thanks for explaining how to get my muscles to become fat-adapted better. I wasn't really sure about that process and this simplified it for me and also gives me a goal to go after. I've started doing interval runs on days in between lift days. Hopefully that will push the fat burn higher.0
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