too much protein
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Well, you have to get enough calories
Yipes! I thought calorie counts had gone the way of the dodo (though I still track them - calories, that is - with a daily min/max range, fossil that I am).
Does your body know the difference between dietary fat and body fat when you're in weight-loss mode?
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I too, was concerned about too much protein turning into glucose, so I'm watchin'/still readin' this thread, but just wanted to say I heard "SPAM" and came a runnin'!
I made Spam and eggs yesterday!
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KETOGENICGURL wrote: »My only exposure was as a child when cans of it were given to poor coal mining families under the welfare/food program in rural PA (along with those long boxes of processed cheese!)
LOL Spam is $$$. I only got a can of it yesterday because it was on sale 2 for $5, it's normally almost $4 a can!
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Does your body know the difference between dietary fat and body fat when you're in weight-loss mode?
I need to know this, too.
I feel—yet again—overwhelmed with inconsistent info...this way of life has been akin to taking some advanced master's degree course, for me![:\](https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
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The idea that calories don't matter is so much nonsense. Too little over an extended period of time, regardless of composition, compromises health and well-being. Too many over an extended period of time, regardless of composition, compromises health and well-being.
How to define too much or too little? We are all an experiment of one to a degree, but there are guidelines easily found in this group.
For me, the best thing I did was get a DEXA scan and RMR test done, so I know precisely, without the need to guess, what my body comp was on the date of the test and precisely how many calories I burn with zero activity during the day. As a result, I know exactly how much protein I need to eat to maintain my lean body mass each day, and I know if I take my RMR minus 500 calories I'll lose a pound a week before accounting for exercise.
I think it gets really confusing when people are guessing or skipping logging because, "freedom, damnit!" and the results are inconsistent. My results have been very consistent because I minimize the guessing with the testing and by weighing and measuring everything. My belief is that if I do it long enough I will develop new habits based on the right information that will support my health and well being long term.8 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Well, you have to get enough calories
Yipes! I thought calorie counts had gone the way of the dodo (though I still track them - calories, that is - with a daily min/max range, fossil that I am).
Does your body know the difference between dietary fat and body fat when you're in weight-loss mode?
Well, just saying that eating 10% carbs and 25% protein doesn't make up enough calories... The other 65% has to come from somewhere if not fat, then either more carbs (then you're on Sad diet) or protein, (then you're on Dukan I think). We all know too low fat isn't the answer if health is your goal.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Well, you have to get enough calories
Yipes! I thought calorie counts had gone the way of the dodo (though I still track them - calories, that is - with a daily min/max range, fossil that I am).
Does your body know the difference between dietary fat and body fat when you're in weight-loss mode?
Well, just saying that eating 10% carbs and 25% protein doesn't make up enough calories... The other 65% has to come from somewhere if not fat, then either more carbs (then you're on Sad diet) or protein, (then you're on Dukan I think). We all know too low fat isn't the answer if health is your goal.
I don't disagree if you're in maintenance mode.... but what if you're in induction or weight-loss phases (and, if you're T2D, trying to reduce your insulin resistance and BG)?
In other words, where does the minimum calorie requirement come from if your goal is to switch to from glucose- to fat-burning and work off the 100,000+ extra calories you have stored in body fat (as opposed to a goal of maintaining your current weight)?
Nothing against fat, of course.... (drools, heads to kitchen for a butter-boosted cappuccino)
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Well, you have to get enough calories
Yipes! I thought calorie counts had gone the way of the dodo (though I still track them - calories, that is - with a daily min/max range, fossil that I am).
Does your body know the difference between dietary fat and body fat when you're in weight-loss mode?
Well, just saying that eating 10% carbs and 25% protein doesn't make up enough calories... The other 65% has to come from somewhere if not fat, then either more carbs (then you're on Sad diet) or protein, (then you're on Dukan I think). We all know too low fat isn't the answer if health is your goal.
I don't disagree if you're in maintenance mode.... but what if you're in induction or weight-loss phases (and, if you're T2D, trying to reduce your insulin resistance and BG)?
In other words, where does the minimum calorie requirement come from if your goal is to switch to from glucose- to fat-burning and work off the 100,000+ extra calories you have stored in body fat (as opposed to a goal of maintaining your current weight)?
Nothing against fat, of course.... (drools, heads to kitchen for a butter-boosted cappuccino)
The calorie deficit definitely comes from cutting fat.
But the original comment was asking why do high fat at all, if I recall. So my thinking was that one of the 3 macros needs to be higher then if fat isn't going to be. For example, person can't just keep carbs at 20g and protein at 120g and eat 30g fat... That's not enough calories overall... At least not to be a daily plan. So, if someone wants to eat a daily diet where fat is not a higher proportion, then they need to decide if it's carbs they will eat more of or protein. You gotta eat something!
See what I'm saying.1 -
My current macro ratios:
5% Carbs
15% Protein
80% Fat
I bumped my protein down from 21% out of concern for having too much turn into glucose (I am T2 and currently mostly sedentary, I have bursts of activity here and there but I don't actually track any of it).
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authorwriter wrote: »FYI, if you're on the weight-loss diet (as opposed to maintenance), you don't need to hit a magic number of fat calories - your body will merrily chew away on body fat if it doesn't get enough in your diet!
Okay, I just experienced a total disconnect. If this is the case...why are we eating fat at all? wouldn't it be better to eat as little fat as possible, hit our protein goals and let our bodies go to our fat stores?
@RalfLott posted this video on another thread. Dr. Phinney addresses why you can't do a high protein diet indefinitely. He recommends no more than 30% for your protein macro.
https://youtu.be/KkdFkPxxDG8 3 -
MelissaHaseley wrote: »I noticed that protein is harder to digest in the morning. I had a small zero carb protein shake this morning and I almost fell asleep driving to work. Next time have a protein shake it will be after I have worked out. I have a harder time getting all the fats I need, but certain cheeses have higher fat content and they go great on lean meats. I don't like having to drink the butter and oil after I've eaten chicken just to get the fats in my system. Some people just fill a shot glass of olive oil and down it, tips get your fats, unsaturated and helps your digestive system move everything through.
What's in your protein shake? If it's dairy derived at all, it might be your culprit. Whey is insulinogenic on par with white bread, meaning it spikes your insulin just as much. If you are sensitive to the effects of an insulin spike, it can lead to the tiredness (just ask @KnitOrMiss about her food narcolepsy issues).
Also, if you're having a hard time getting your fat in, ditch the lean meats and get the fatty ones. The idea that saturated fat is bad for you is a myth. The Launch Pad has details on that. I'm not going to be a broken record today. At least not on that front.authorwriter wrote: »FYI, if you're on the weight-loss diet (as opposed to maintenance), you don't need to hit a magic number of fat calories - your body will merrily chew away on body fat if it doesn't get enough in your diet!
Okay, I just experienced a total disconnect. If this is the case...why are we eating fat at all? wouldn't it be better to eat as little fat as possible, hit our protein goals and let our bodies go to our fat stores?
Digestion is a big one. As is nutrient absorption from the food we eat. Our bodies do not like living off lean meat as the sole form of meat consumption. Even short of what's known as "rabbit starvation" (which usually only applies to survival situations), eating protein to the exclusion of both fat and carbohydrates is really miserable. There's a reason body builders call it "the world's hardest diet" and is only recommended for a week, maybe two.
What happens? Diarrhea and/or constipation and nausea, for starters. Even the famous Stevenson suffered this issue when the beginning of his documented experiment consisted of lean, instead of fatty, meats.
Over the long term, you also suffer from lack of nutrients in general, and poor absorption of the nutrients that are there. The nutrients in meat are present in large part in the fat (consider eggs -- 90% of the nutrients are in the yolk, the fattiest part). That fat is also required for proper absorption of vitamins A, D, E, and K.anewlifeat40 wrote: »authorwriter wrote: »FYI, if you're on the weight-loss diet (as opposed to maintenance), you don't need to hit a magic number of fat calories - your body will merrily chew away on body fat if it doesn't get enough in your diet!
Okay, I just experienced a total disconnect. If this is the case...why are we eating fat at all? wouldn't it be better to eat as little fat as possible, hit our protein goals and let our bodies go to our fat stores?
That's a good question.
If your goal is to burn fat and reduce (as opposed to maintain) your body fat stores, then I think you're basically right. Most of us can't stand reducing our total food intake so drastically, but many LCHF advocates would say there's no reason not to do what you suggest, assuming you meet your macro- and micronutrient requirements (and you're not driven to Twinkies as you keto-adapt).
Anyone else want to chime in?
One word. Hunger. Fat provides satiety so we eat less. Also, if you're not eating fat, and you're not eating carbs... you're basically just eating protein, which converts to fat when you eat more than your body needs... at least that's my understanding? Correct me if I"m wrong... I'm a total newb still...
Technically (and on paper), true, but in reality, not really. The conversion of protein to fat is a two-step process -- first the protein needs to be made into glucose, then the glucose into fat. Each step in the process consumes about 25% of the energy per unit, resulting in nearly 50% of the original energy being lost. In other words, if you consume 10 calories worth of protein that gets converted to fat, only about 5 calories actually gets stored. As a result, in order to stall out a 500 calorie deficit, you'd have to eat 1000 calories, or 250g, of protein excess. So, unless the remaining calories are purely from fat or carbohydrates and all that protein is being stored, protein intake isn't likely to have much of an effect on weight, really. If you're only getting calories from protein, you're looking at somewhere in the ballpark of 500g of protein, which actually requires a ton of effort and is a miserable experience on a number of fronts (see the body builder link, above). And, since the body prioritizes tissue building and repair over fuel in general when it comes to protein, most realistic intakes of protein aren't going to be converted to fat, anyway.7 -
LOL Don't knock it till you try it! Different strokes for different folks I guess. Although my hubby and kids are not big fans I don't get to eat it as often as I would like. But you must def pan fry it to get max salty goodness 4 -
Really interesting read on another thread that made me thing about my sleepy after meals thing - which has been dramatically cut down since I added support for my low stomach acid... @Dragonwolf I know everything ties back to the gut, but the list of things related is making my head spin at the moment!
My Blog, Summary of Other
Related LCD Post
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KETOGENICGURL wrote: »SPAM is considered as quality meat? Or emergency food only? I thought "processed" meats like hot dogs were avoided... do LC'ers consider SPAM a good choice?
My only exposure was as a child when cans of it were given to poor coal mining families under the welfare/food program in rural PA (along with those long boxes of processed cheese!)
You couldn't pay me to eat Spam! I definitely don't consider this a quality food source, but we all have different goals here, so no judgement on those who like it. I've aimed for a clean diet for years, and I find it very easy to eat LCHF and eat clean. Though I admit, I'm far from perfect and time impacts my menu, I often use bottled salad dressing and mayo and I even eat sausages now and then (fresh ones, not hot dog type sausages, I draw the line at that).
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Eh...well I also eat offal so I guess I'm not too picky lol.PaleoInScotland wrote: »KETOGENICGURL wrote: »SPAM is considered as quality meat? Or emergency food only? I thought "processed" meats like hot dogs were avoided... do LC'ers consider SPAM a good choice?
My only exposure was as a child when cans of it were given to poor coal mining families under the welfare/food program in rural PA (along with those long boxes of processed cheese!)
You couldn't pay me to eat Spam! I definitely don't consider this a quality food source, but we all have different goals here, so no judgement on those who like it. I've aimed for a clean diet for years, and I find it very easy to eat LCHF and eat clean. Though I admit, I'm far from perfect and time impacts my menu, I often use bottled salad dressing and mayo and I even eat sausages now and then (fresh ones, not hot dog type sausages, I draw the line at that).
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"Dragonwolf wrote: »Whey is insulinogenic on par with white bread, meaning it spikes your insulin just as much. If you are sensitive to the effects of an insulin spike, it can lead to the tiredness (just ask @KnitOrMiss about her food narcolepsy issues).
O wise @Dragonwolf, this is puzzling.
The sources are not terribly clear on exactly which dairy products are insulinogenic, to what extent, and under what conditions.
I can't browbeat even my endocrinologist into giving me a fasting insulin test, let alone a series of post-prandial tests to try to sniff out my responses to whey-containing substances.
Absent sleepiness or my belt suddenly tightening from lipogenesis, how do I go about putting the pieces together?
Many thx in advance for your insights!1 -
Eh...well I also eat offal so I guess I'm not too picky lol.PaleoInScotland wrote: »KETOGENICGURL wrote: »SPAM is considered as quality meat? Or emergency food only? I thought "processed" meats like hot dogs were avoided... do LC'ers consider SPAM a good choice?
My only exposure was as a child when cans of it were given to poor coal mining families under the welfare/food program in rural PA (along with those long boxes of processed cheese!)
You couldn't pay me to eat Spam! I definitely don't consider this a quality food source, but we all have different goals here, so no judgement on those who like it. I've aimed for a clean diet for years, and I find it very easy to eat LCHF and eat clean. Though I admit, I'm far from perfect and time impacts my menu, I often use bottled salad dressing and mayo and I even eat sausages now and then (fresh ones, not hot dog type sausages, I draw the line at that).
I eat offal too
There's a big difference between frying up some fresh beef liver, chicken hearts or sweet breads versus spam and hot dogs. I just like to know exactly what innards I'm eating and I like to eat them fresh. Yes, I'm fussy about my food, I'm one of those annoying people who grills the waiter with questions before ordering and reads the entire label before buying something at the grocery store, it drives my hubby crazy.4 -
LOL - @PaleoInScotland - I don't know what it is about hot dogs and bologna, but even the all beef supposedly "safe" stuff always caused my stomach to hurt. I used to have to drench it in sauces to choke it down... I'm still not up to frying up my own offal, but I do eat pate/liverwurst, so I'm eating the gateway meats. LOL2
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@PaleoInScotland yes I see your point and its a good one. Spam is my guilty pleasure haha ok i know im prob grossing you out so i'll stop I grew up eating it so i never really thought about it being a frankenfood. 1
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Offal is offal-y delicious.
I love tripe and cow tongue!
I definitely came from a culture that you did not waste parts of the animal. If you could eat it, they found a way.3 -
samanthaluangphixay wrote: »Offal is offal-y delicious.
I love tripe and cow tongue!
I definitely came from a culture that you did not waste parts of the animal. If you could eat it, they found a way.
omg I love tripe and cow tongue! super delicious in tacos not a fan of liver though 
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omg I love tripe and cow tongue! super delicious in tacos not a fan of liver though
Yeah...liver is my least favourite innard. I have never had tripe in tacos but I really like tongue in tacos.
My family throws it on the grill and that is my fave way to eat it. Some people don't like the tough/chewy texture but I really do! I'm a weirdo lol
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carine0502 wrote: »Hey my low-carber friends!
I have a question about macros and how to keep them correct. I'm supposed to keep my proteins around 50-60g a day (1m63 for 52/53kg) and I always end up with twice as much. So I'm afraid this is not good!
All the LCHF recipes I gather are always meat/fish/egg based so filled with a lot of proteins.
can you give me examples of menus to keep proteins relatively low?
thanks a lot
I was reading on dietdoctor.com and it said to eat 1gr of protein for each kilogram of your goal weight. If you divide your goal weight by 2.2 that will give you it in kilograms. So if you choose to be at 20gr carbs, and figure your proteins that way they the rest is fats. Put that into MFP goals...worth a try1 -
Me too! I'm huge on texture. Thats why I like octopus too. I like chewy things .samanthaluangphixay wrote: ». Some people don't like the tough/chewy texture but I really do! I'm a weirdo lol
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Me too! I'm huge on texture. Thats why I like octopus too. I like chewy things .samanthaluangphixay wrote: ». Some people don't like the tough/chewy texture but I really do! I'm a weirdo lol
You both sound like me. I love all animal parts, especially the chewy ones.2 -
"Dragonwolf wrote: »Whey is insulinogenic on par with white bread, meaning it spikes your insulin just as much. If you are sensitive to the effects of an insulin spike, it can lead to the tiredness (just ask @KnitOrMiss about her food narcolepsy issues).
O wise @Dragonwolf, this is puzzling.
The sources are not terribly clear on exactly which dairy products are insulinogenic, to what extent, and under what conditions.
I can't browbeat even my endocrinologist into giving me a fasting insulin test, let alone a series of post-prandial tests to try to sniff out my responses to whey-containing substances.
Absent sleepiness or my belt suddenly tightening from lipogenesis, how do I go about putting the pieces together?
Many thx in advance for your insights!
Endo won't give you a fasting insulin test?! Why?! I'd say get a new endo. Can't speak to the post-pandial tests, since I haven't tried that.
In the research I've done, whey seems to be the big reason for the insulin spike above and beyond what's expected with the lactose, and it's not modulated by fat content. I suspect whey + lactose are the worst. Logic would dictate that whey-heavy foods would be the worst.
It's arguably a poor substitute, but if you want to test on your own, it might be worth picking up a glucometer. If you're actively keto, it might also be good to get one that measures ketones. Both glucose and ketones are modulated by insulin, so theoretically, there should be a drop in either/both and/or less of an increase than you'd expect for the amount of glucose and could be a proxy measure of insulin increase.
If you want to try it, I'd set it up this way:
1. Start with control tests of straight glucose, straight protein, and straight fat. Glucose tablets, chicken breast, and probably just about any fat except coconut oil and maybe butter would be great for this (MCTs are kind of like jet fuel and may not provide the control measurements we need; butter has trace amounts of the non-fat compounds that might interfere, for purity's sake, I'd avoid it; if you have it, I'd say lard or tallow would be good control fats). If you can find it, isolated lactose would be good to measure, too. In all cases, measure by weight and use that amount in all tests.
2. Measure glucose and ketones in the fasting state before consuming the item, and 1, 2, and 3 hours after consumption.
3. Whey isolate would probably be a good test for how you react to straight whey (whey concentrate would be a close second). Get some that's nothing but whey and mix it with water.
4. From there, test different kinds of dairy and see how you react, using the same measurements. Ricotta is whey-heavy. Hard cheeses and strained yogurts are casein-heavy. Cream cheese often has added whey. Butter only has trace amounts of both, with heavy cream having a little more but still small amounts (though try to get one that's just cream and not additive crap). Whole milk has the standard base ratios, with the lower fats having slightly more per unit (due to the decrease in fat). Lactose-free milk is also a good one to try (and actually tastes pretty good).2
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