Atheists Go to church for their kids
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I'll give it a whirl AZDak, as I think there's a chance you might be asking me.
"Moral Foundation", as far as I can tell from how we've been discussing it here, is a pretty meaningless concept to me. I even think it may be a negative thing.
I have morals, we all do, no one is arguing against that at all. For me that's what matters. When Patti brings up religion as a moral foundation for her beliefs, well I equate it with a believer saying the Holy Spirit guides their lives or something like that. Without being offensive, which may not work, but I consider it to be nonsense. I dismiss it with an eye roll or snarky comment if I'm really in a mood.
I don't believe in a higer power-moral foundation. I don't even believe in objective morality. I think our morality is ever changing and that's a good thing! Because as a species we clearly started out with a morality that could use some improvement.
I believe morality is subject to the world we live in. That can be attacked, "Oh you're only good when it's convenient for you!" But it's just the reality of life. Stealing is wrong, we all know that. But do you condemn a person who's family is literally starving for stealing a loaf of bread?
We live lifes of comfort never known in the history of the world. So it's easy for us to talk about what moral people we are. Let a few nukes fall and watch how it all changes. You'll see good, caring, decent people killing each other for survival. Take away all our comforts and conveniences and believe me everything we pride ourselves will change in an instant. Good or bad it's simply the truth.
Also I'm ok with it because it leaves room for improvement. If our morality came from a higher power that dictated morality to us long ago, well let's take a look at that moral foundation shall we? Does it come from the bible? Because that book is pretty full of atrocity and genocide. How can you have an unchanging moral foundation that says nothing against slavery or rape, even goes as far as to condone it?
I know that I haven't always been as understanding and moral as I am now. I've learned, I've grown. I very much hope for that to continue. Both with me personally and as a species. It's called progress and it gives me hope for us. If we have a morality that comes from above and has always been there...well.. that's limiting to me.
And for my last point (sorry for the ramble) I know Patti and we get along surprisingly well for people of conflicting beliefs. I know that she's a good person who doesn't mean to offend. She simply believes differently than myself. She's a Catholic and I'm an atheist. We're going to disagree. Period. So should we just yell at one another? Attacking each other with little points, hoping to score a victory? It doesn't work like that. I'm quite sure that nothing I could say would get her to drop her beliefs all of a sudden. Same on my end. But we can talk, we can have a dialogue. Through discussion we can find common ground. We can learn from one another. That's more productive to me. Others can see what we say here and decide for themselves who's using better logic, or making more sense, or whatever. We know we aren't going to change based on an internet debate, but we can have an understanding.
People have been trying for thousands of years to prove that their belief system (or lack of one) is "right". They've used some pretty awful methods too. But since there are as many if not more religions now than ever, and lack of belief is on the rise, well clearly you can't force someone to believe as you do. You can only talk with them and try to get closer to whatever the truth might be. It's a good thing. It's crucial in the world we live in. I HATE the thought of religion being forced on me, so I won't force my atheism on anyone else. I ask only that we be able to talk to one another, openly and without fear of persecution. When EITHER side loses that we all lose.
Again, sorry for the long message. Probably didnt' even answer the question...:embarassed:
I wasn't really evaluating other people's "moral foundation"--just questioning the implied idea that only religion offers a "moral foundation". This was in response to comments from people who seemed to profess an agnostic or atheist viewpoint and yet also seemed to agree with the original statement and the testimony that there were indeed "atheist friends" who agreed with that position.
It sounded to me like people in general were accepting the idea the "morality = religion". As I have subsequently described, that is a concept that I reject out of hand.We live lifes of comfort never known in the history of the world. So it's easy for us to talk about what moral people we are. Let a few nukes fall and watch how it all changes. You'll see good, caring, decent people killing each other for survival. Take away all our comforts and conveniences and believe me everything we pride ourselves will change in an instant. Good or bad it's simply the truth.
Bertold Brecht had a great line to describe that idea written in "The Threepenny Opera": "Erst kommt das Fressen; dann kommt die Moral".
I don't think we have to wait for a nuclear cataclysm to experience what you are describing. You can see it right now in the responses to our extended economic downturn. And you saw it even earlier in the national hysteria that occurred after 9/11.0 -
This is pathetic.
Agree.0 -
I disagree, I think that poster thingie makes a perfectly valid point. So many of us lie to our kids about Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy etc.etc.etc. and then in the very next breath we teach religion. So then the kid turns 8 or 10 or whenever and finds out that you've been jerking his chain his entire life.
Well kids aren't stupid. When they find that you lied about Santa, and you lied about the Easter bunny, and you lied about the Tooth Fairy, and you lied about Spot going to live on a farm, and you lied lied lied,,, it's perfectly reasonable for them to wonder if you lied about Jesus too. I'd worry if they didn't.
We didn't teach our kids Santa, for just this reason.
<<Maybe this needs to be a new post,,,>>0 -
"first comes a full stomach, then comes ethics"<<snip>
Bertold Brecht had a great line to describe that idea written in "The Threepenny Opera": "Erst kommt das Fressen; dann kommt die Moral". <<snip>>0 -
Casper I agree completely. As a kid in Catholic school I can remember seeing the similarity between Santa and God/Jesus. Once we all find out Santa is fake well.. I know there are other kids out there that may be connecting these dots.
What I don't get about believers is how they'll dismiss other gods. Sure we all know Santa isn't real. And most people have no problem laughing at the beliefs of Scientologists, me included. Same with every other faith.
Why completely dismiss those belief systems, which require the exact same faith as Christianity, but be so sure that yours is "real"? We all act like we know Zeus is fake and man made and never existed. But Jesus HAS to be real! I see very little difference in the two.
Like Fear used to have in her sig (which really started the whole "no religion talk in the forums rule") "We all reject 99% of the gods that have ever existed. I simply go one further than you."
Also thanks for the translation! I kept forgetting to look that up. As a theater major who's done Brecht I should have known it anyway...0 -
The other thing is that much of Christianity is a mish-mash of other religions stories. The whole Jesus and virgin birth story isn't the only one out there. There were religions that had a virgin birth long before Jesus came into the picture.
And about Santa----we do Santa at our house. I loved it as a kid, and yeah it sucked finding out he wasn't real (I believed a long time---til age 12), but I wouldn't trade Santa for anything growing up. Loved it.0 -
What I don't get about believers is how they'll dismiss other gods. Sure we all know Santa isn't real. And most people have no problem laughing at the beliefs of Scientologists, me included. Same with every other faith.
Why completely dismiss those belief systems, which require the exact same faith as Christianity, but be so sure that yours is "real"? We all act like we know Zeus is fake and man made and never existed. But Jesus HAS to be real! I see very little difference in the two.
Yeah...as an outsider on religion looking in, they all kinda sound the same, in that they all sound absurd.0 -
The other thing is that much of Christianity is a mish-mash of other religions stories. The whole Jesus and virgin birth story isn't the only one out there. There were religions that had a virgin birth long before Jesus came into the picture.
And about Santa----we do Santa at our house. I loved it as a kid, and yeah it sucked finding out he wasn't real (I believed a long time---til age 12), but I wouldn't trade Santa for anything growing up. Loved it.
Not to mention the co-mingling of other cultural influences over time: while not "officially" part of the theology, the "pagan" sources of things like the Easter Bunny, Easter Eggs, Christmas trees, etc are readily apparent. It's also interesting to see how the depictions of Jesus in art evolved over the centuries and how that also reflects changes in peoples' general religious outlook.0 -
You're right. Kids aren't stupid. I give them more credit to grow up understanding why we do the Santa, Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy thing without thinking we lie to them about everything. The other important piece you're leaving out is when children eventually ask, "Is there really a Santa" and we tell them the truth. So, when they ask "Is there really a God" they should feel confident in knowing they'll also get an honest answer there. There is nothing wrong with children questioning Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and God.Well kids aren't stupid. When they find that you lied about Santa, and you lied about the Easter bunny, and you lied about the Tooth Fairy, and you lied about Spot going to live on a farm, and you lied lied lied,,, it's perfectly reasonable for them to wonder if you lied about Jesus too. I'd worry if they didn't.0 -
Ok, ready for this. Sit down. Are you sitting? OK then. I agree with Patti. There. I said it. It didn't even hurt. Much. OK, maybe a little. :laugh:
You're right. Kids aren't stupid. I give them more credit to grow up understanding why we do the Santa, Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy thing without thinking we lie to them about everything. The other important piece you're leaving out is when children eventually ask, "Is there really a Santa" and we tell them the truth. So, when they ask "Is there really a God" they should feel confident in knowing they'll also get an honest answer there. There is nothing wrong with children questioning Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and God.Well kids aren't stupid. When they find that you lied about Santa, and you lied about the Easter bunny, and you lied about the Tooth Fairy, and you lied about Spot going to live on a farm, and you lied lied lied,,, it's perfectly reasonable for them to wonder if you lied about Jesus too. I'd worry if they didn't.
Seriously, kids aren't stupid. Telling them about Santa isn't going to make them question religion anymore than it's going to make them question whether or not you're their real parents. It might lead to them asking if the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc is real. It did with my kids. But never in any conversation I've ever heard where a parent explained that Santa isn't a real person and the presents come from mommy and daddy did the kid ever just assume that meant God wasn't real or that the parents maliciously lied to them about everything they ever said was true.
Why no, I haven't started drinking yet. Why do you ask? :laugh:0 -
Well, I have been drinking, so I wasn't sure if I read this correctly or not! :drinker:Ok, ready for this. Sit down. Are you sitting? OK then. I agree with Patti. There. I said it. It didn't even hurt. Much. OK, maybe a little. :laugh:
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It didn't make me question religion - I was already doing that, but it made me question why my parents were lying to me. Let's not undersell this. My parents tried to tell me that a fat man in a red suit magically came down a chimney that we didn't have and left presents. I remember being 4 years old and literally wondering if my parents were on drugs. How dare they insult my intelligence with some ridiculous, obviously false, hopelessly stupidly laughably untrue mythology? I was young and little and inexperienced, but I was not stupid and I resented being lied to.<<snip>>
Seriously, kids aren't stupid. Telling them about Santa isn't going to make them question religion anymore than it's going to make them question whether or not you're their real parents. It might lead to them asking if the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc is real. It did with my kids. But never in any conversation I've ever heard where a parent explained that Santa isn't a real person and the presents come from mommy and daddy did the kid ever just assume that meant God wasn't real or that the parents maliciously lied to them about everything they ever said was true.
<<snip>>
As my source of info Re" Santa and my source of info Re: religion were the same people, the lies absolutely did make me question everything they said. It's probably part of why I'm not a believer today.
We didn't do it. We taught our kids that Jesus was a genius who taught the world a better way to live,,, and that Christmas was time to celebrate his birth and to talk about his teachings regarding loving one another and being kind and decent and good. And we taught them that Santa was a fictitious character that was sort'a like the clown at Jesus' birthday party. Kind'a like the Ronald McDonald of Christmas. And we never lied.0 -
My girlfriend is christian and I am a very unapologetic atheist. If we have kids I will be fine with her taking them to church because I believe you have to make up your own mind. I will expose them to science and critical thinking.0
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My girlfriend is christian and I am a very unapologetic atheist. If we have kids I will be fine with her taking them to church because I believe you have to make up your own mind. I will expose them to science and critical thinking.
My girlfriend is agnostic but kind of "spiritual". I could see her mother convincing her to take any kids we might have to church.
I decided I'm fine with that. The child will still see me not going. When he/she asks why I'll be honest. Eventually the child can make up their own mind. The way it should be.
Also I already know that having the house to myself on a Sunday morning is such a gift I almost wish I did believe, so I'd have someone to thank.
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It may have been mentioned in the previous 14 pages of commentary, most of which I didn't read, but a Church can serve a variety of purposes. Community building is an example.
Perhaps I'm radical, but I don't see a reason to view a Church as just a place for people who believe in God, or to assume that anyone who happens to show up for services happens to be there to worship God. Plenty Churches are primarily a family.
The notion that only people who believe in God should show up for services seems silly to me as a default position.0
This discussion has been closed.