Atheists Go to church for their kids
Replies
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No ma'am. That's a reference to the constant cries of "Oppression" from the Christians. The only oppressed minority that is actually a majority. See "Christmas; war on" - "O'reilly, Bill".0
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General statements and observations from a person raised in a very devout faith community. None of this is directed at any particular person. My views alone - cut me to ribbons if you will:
Arguing with a person of faith is like arguing with a fish about the nature of water.
Water is the fish's world, he lives in it, and he's probably not even aware that it's there. The water is the fish's home and provides great comfort and all that he needs. He might look at you pityingly, so sorry for you that you do not enjoy the wondrous life of being submerged in H2O at all times.
Religious faith informs their worldview. They know that g-d says "Thou shalt not kill", and they know they don't want to kill and would never kill. Many will make a small leap and reason that they do not wish to kill because g-d told them not to. From there it's just a short jump to "Atheists do not listen to g-d's commandment not to kill - therefore Atheists are all murderers (or would really like to be)". See that cartoon of the baby sandwich for a reference.
"I take great comfort in knowing that I'm saved from eternal damnation by acceptance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ - therefore people without that salvation do not have that comfort - therefore the Atheist worldview is impoverished an unfilfilling". Huh? What? To need salvation, one must feel that they are in danger. Atheists don't.
The faithful can be insulting without meaning to be. Utterly unaware that others don't share their frame of reference. Once you believe in the literal truth of Goblins and Fairies (Ooh, may bad,,, Demons and Angels) your world view is far enough from the rationalist that it's easy to lose track of what might or might not be offensive or insulting. (As I just did. Point taken?).
Onward,,,
I agree with you. I don't TRY insulting or offending anyone. Where we got off track in this thread was the purposeful ridiculing, name calling, and derogatory pictures being posted, and making it personal. I certainly don't believe I will change anyone's mind about religion, and I'm not trying to shove my religion down anyone's throat. I gave my reaction to the article without even reading anyone else's comments. My views were on atheism as a whole and not directed at any specific person. I try very hard to discuss and debate religion without offending people who have different beliefs.0 -
No ma'am. That's a reference to the constant cries of "Oppression" from the Christians. The only oppressed minority that is actually a majority. See "Christmas; war on" - "O'reilly, Bill".
I saw that. They even did a local news story here last night on "War on Christmas". Just making sure he wasn't using it as an argument for anything being said in this thread. I don't think any of us here are crying "oppression". I'm certainly not.0 -
He brings that up every December. It riles up his base, good for ratings, sells lots of soap and makes him lots of money. Bill O'reilly does more damage to Christianity than the Westboro Baptist Church.
I spent 20 years trying to be a faithful Christian. I got the full education, was baptized southern baptist, went to vacation bible school, the whole program. Never bought it, not for a minute. I had enough 'faith' to fear that I might burn in hell if I couldn't believe what I was taught, but not enough faith to believe all the stuff that went with it, so in the end I reasoned that if 90% of the theology made no sense then the fire&brimstone didn't make sense either and I rejected the whole thing. But I didn't jump all the way to hard atheism either, I couldn't.
Then I wandered for 20 years, talked to a lot of people, learned lots'a stuff. Then I found a home and I'm happy there.
SO - I know a great deal about the Christian point of view, I just don't share it. I do think the morals and ethics of the Nazarene are unsurpassed, as did Thomas Jefferson.0 -
General statements and observations from a person raised in a very devout faith community. None of this is directed at any particular person. My views alone - cut me to ribbons if you will:
Arguing with a person of faith is like arguing with a fish about the nature of water.
Water is the fish's world, he lives in it, and he's probably not even aware that it's there. The water is the fish's home and provides great comfort and all that he needs. He might look at you pityingly, so sorry for you that you do not enjoy the wondrous life of being submerged in H2O at all times.
Religious faith informs their worldview. They know that g-d says "Thou shalt not kill", and they know they don't want to kill and would never kill. Many will make a small leap and reason that they do not wish to kill because g-d told them not to. From there it's just a short jump to "Atheists do not listen to g-d's commandment not to kill - therefore Atheists are all murderers (or would really like to be)". See that cartoon of the baby sandwich for a reference.
"I take great comfort in knowing that I'm saved from eternal damnation by acceptance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ - therefore people without that salvation do not have that comfort - therefore the Atheist worldview is impoverished an unfilfilling". Huh? What? To need salvation, one must feel that they are in danger. Atheists don't.
The faithful can be insulting without meaning to be. Utterly unaware that others don't share their frame of reference. Once you believe in the literal truth of Goblins and Fairies (Ooh, may bad,,, Demons and Angels) your world view is far enough from the rationalist that it's easy to lose track of what might or might not be offensive or insulting. (As I just did. Point taken?).
Onward,,,
I agree with you. I don't TRY insulting or offending anyone. Where we got off track in this thread was the purposeful ridiculing, name calling, and derogatory pictures being posted, and making it personal. I certainly don't believe I will change anyone's mind about religion, and I'm not trying to shove my religion down anyone's throat. I gave my reaction to the article without even reading anyone else's comments. My views were on atheism as a whole and not directed at any specific person. I try very hard to discuss and debate religion without offending people who have different beliefs.
What's the difference in writing a long paragraph about how you feel about atheists in the way you did and me showing a picture of the way I feel. And how come no one is angry with me about the anti-atheist poster I put up with the guy eating a baby? So, you can feign being the victim or the bigger person here, but once again, if you can't handle people standing up to the ridiculous things you are typing, then stay in bed. Because I am sure not going to sit here and listen to a person tell me I have an impoverished world view or any of the other brainwashed nonsense you said lying down. Hell, if you are this offended at some silly cartoons, how offended were you when the Pope covered up the rape of children by some of his priests?0 -
He brings that up every December. It riles up his base, good for ratings, sells lots of soap and makes him lots of money. Bill O'reilly does more damage to Christianity than the Westboro Baptist Church.
That's a close one, right there. 0 -
And one of us refuses to patronize someone he considers delusional. Interesting. I applaud your integrity, as I go for popcorn.
I do love this debating room,,, 0 -
You know the difference, Adrian. Quit pretending like you're not ridiculing or trying to personally offend me. Man-up and own that you're pissed at the church, God, or whatever, so you take it out on me for being a Christian and stating my beliefs.What's the difference in writing a long paragraph about how you feel about atheists in the way you did and me showing a picture of the way I feelHell, if you are this offended at some silly cartoons, how offended were you when the Pope covered up the rape of children by some of his priests?
ANY cover up of child molestation deeply upsets me. It is a horrible act, especially for someone in a power position or in a trust position to take advantage of children. Makes me sick. But, hey, you throwing priests who molest boys out there in a religious debate isn't very original.0 -
And one of us refuses to patronize someone he considers delusional. Interesting. I applaud your integrity, as I go for popcorn.
I don't understand this statement?0 -
If you "accidentally" offend someone and then keep saying similar things you are no better than the person who intentionally posts something they know will be taken as offensive. If A is perfectly in their rights to state their opinion that all those who don't follow their version of religion will burn in hell then B is perfectly in their rights to state that A's version of God is an egotistical sadist. It's just a differing opinion. It might be a bit harsher in As opinion but B might feel the opposite.0
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I'll bet your debate partner does. Let's see,,,
I don't understand this statement?And one of us refuses to patronize someone he considers delusional. Interesting. I applaud your integrity, as I go for popcorn.0 -
If you "accidentally" offend someone and then keep saying similar things you are no better than the person who intentionally posts something they know will be taken as offensive. If A is perfectly in their rights to state their opinion that all those who don't follow their version of religion will burn in hell then B is perfectly in their rights to state that A's version of God is an egotistical sadist. It's just a differing opinion. It might be a bit harsher in As opinion but B might feel the opposite.
Are we really going to sit here and act like we don't know there is a difference between debating view points and ridiculing beliefs? Give me a break.0 -
And one of us refuses to patronize someone he considers delusional. Interesting. I applaud your integrity, as I go for popcorn.I don't understand this statement?I'll bet your debate partner does. Let's see,,,
But you posted it, so I'm asking you for clarification. I'm not really interested in waiting for "my debate partner" to jump in.0 -
A true hard atheist considers religious belief to be a delusion. Belief in something that is not real. Most of the time the atheist will not raise a stink, and just make small talk with the person of faith, roll their eyes and move on. Talking with the person much as one might talk with an unmedicated schizophrenic. It's just easier.
""Of course woman was made from a man's rib, you betcha"
"The burning bush said what?"
"I wonder if they helped themselves to some oysters while walking through the parted Red Sea"
"Your talking dog said what?"
It's patronizing, but it's easier than trying to discuss water with a fish, so that's what Atheists usually do. Someone here has chosen not to do that. It's a little nasty and difficult and will probably result in a fight, so it takes real conviction to do it - or not caring whose feelings you hurt, one or the other. That's integrity. I didn't say I necessarily agreed, I said I applaud the guts.
(The popcorn wisecrack was about watching the upcoming fight :happy: ).0 -
If you "accidentally" offend someone and then keep saying similar things you are no better than the person who intentionally posts something they know will be taken as offensive. If A is perfectly in their rights to state their opinion that all those who don't follow their version of religion will burn in hell then B is perfectly in their rights to state that A's version of God is an egotistical sadist. It's just a differing opinion. It might be a bit harsher in As opinion but B might feel the opposite.
Are we really going to sit here and act like we don't know there is a difference between debating view points and ridiculing beliefs? Give me a break.
No Patti, I started this debate in a friendly manner. But you continue your offenses even though you claim to be unaware. I happen to think you are full of it, and these debates are always going to be heated because you and your dogma are condesending to non-believers. So I have "manned" up. And once again, I am going to ridicule your beliefs all day long, but at least I'm either honest or intelligent enough to realize when I am doing it instead of calling a whole group of peoples view points "impoverished" and then hiding behind, "Oh, I wasn't trying to offfend you, I was just stating my opinion".
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Adrian, I've never said that our different points of view would not "offend" the other. My point of contention has to do with the ridiculing and name calling. There's no place in a respectable debate for that.
This is no longer a debate, it's a personal attack, so I'm out.0 -
Adrian, I've never said that our different points of view would not "offend" the other. My point of contention has to do with the ridiculing and name calling. There's no place in a respectable debate for that.
This is no longer a debate, it's a personal attack, so I'm out.
Bye0 -
I have to admit, I am a little sad this thread has died out, I did have a lot more posters.0
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*sigh*
I wish the guideline "It's okay to agree to disagree" would have been utilized here.0 -
*sigh*
I wish the guideline "It's okay to agree to disagree" would have been utilized here.
Sorry, we should all be more careful because...........
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*sigh*
I wish the guideline "It's okay to agree to disagree" would have been utilized here.
Sorry, we should all be more careful because...........
Or maybe we could just learn that not everybody will agree, and it's silly to take things really personally on an internet message board?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of your sentiments about what Patti posted regarding atheists' world view, feeling unsettled, etc. But I also realize that I don't think she meant any of it in a malicious way, and that her and I can have an understanding and debate respectfully without taking what each other says personally.
While I am not going to really ever be a mod that deletes posts or threads because they got heated etc, I still can hope that we can all be a bit more tactful when arguing and not take things quite so personally.0 -
At least Jesus is super buff in that pic.
My favorite is the Mary and Joesph one though lol0 -
Personal attacks in a debate=fail. Temper tantrums in a debate=fail. Not being able to debate your side respectfully and resorting to ridicule and non-original jokes=fail.
You may have people who agree with atheism, but you won't win any debates when you lose your cool. The words I've used to describe atheism are words I got FROM atheists I've spoken to or read works of. You have no problem with another atheist telling you those same things, but when I do, you don't like it. I'd appreciate it if you would stop twisting my words. Let my posts stand on their own for others to read. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me names and referring to me in any further posts. I will not be debating with you in the future, so there is no need for you to refer to me personally.0 -
Patti's original quote - verbatim:
And the juicy parts:Interesting. Clearly those atheists who take their kids to church because they want them to “make up their own mind” do not think religion is “evil.” Surely they wouldn’t want their kids to “choose” something that is intrinsically bad for them. We don’t put our kids in a situation where they will harm themselves just so they can have choices, do we? Atheists who take their kids to church and want them to have a legitimate basis of making a decision about religion seem to betray, perhaps, a deeper unsettledness on the matter. Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. Since religion addresses such matters that atheists cannot, it makes sense to me that loving parents, even if they have trouble believing, secretly hope their kids will find something that will give them a more fulfilled life than their own. It is interesting how parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements) have a hard time transmitting the same kind of atheism to their children. Children often see through the inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.... atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is..,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.,,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements)
No,,, nothing insulting there. :noway:inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
If I typed the same thing verbatim but with "Christianity" instead of "Atheism" the Christaliban would flame me to a crisp.
Atheism is not a movement at all, and certainly not a "protest". Wow,,, just too much to argue with here, which is why I didn't. Wow.0 -
Again, since this obviously wasn't read before:General statements and observations from a person raised in a very devout faith community. None of this is directed at any particular person. My views alone - cut me to ribbons if you will:
Arguing with a person of faith is like arguing with a fish about the nature of water.
Water is the fish's world, he lives in it, and he's probably not even aware that it's there. The water is the fish's home and provides great comfort and all that he needs. He might look at you pityingly, so sorry for you that you do not enjoy the wondrous life of being submerged in H2O at all times.
Religious faith informs their worldview. They know that g-d says "Thou shalt not kill", and they know they don't want to kill and would never kill. Many will make a small leap and reason that they do not wish to kill because g-d told them not to. From there it's just a short jump to "Atheists do not listen to g-d's commandment not to kill - therefore Atheists are all murderers (or would really like to be)". See that cartoon of the baby sandwich for a reference.
"I take great comfort in knowing that I'm saved from eternal damnation by acceptance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ - therefore people without that salvation do not have that comfort - therefore the Atheist worldview is impoverished an unfilfilling". Huh? What? To need salvation, one must feel that they are in danger. Atheists don't.
The faithful can be insulting without meaning to be. Utterly unaware that others don't share their frame of reference. Once you believe in the literal truth of Goblins and Fairies (Ooh, may bad,,, Demons and Angels) your world view is far enough from the rationalist that it's easy to lose track of what might or might not be offensive or insulting. (As I just did. Point taken?).
Onward,,,0 -
Patti's original quote - verbatim:
And the juicy parts:Interesting. Clearly those atheists who take their kids to church because they want them to “make up their own mind” do not think religion is “evil.” Surely they wouldn’t want their kids to “choose” something that is intrinsically bad for them. We don’t put our kids in a situation where they will harm themselves just so they can have choices, do we? Atheists who take their kids to church and want them to have a legitimate basis of making a decision about religion seem to betray, perhaps, a deeper unsettledness on the matter. Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. Since religion addresses such matters that atheists cannot, it makes sense to me that loving parents, even if they have trouble believing, secretly hope their kids will find something that will give them a more fulfilled life than their own. It is interesting how parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements) have a hard time transmitting the same kind of atheism to their children. Children often see through the inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.... atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is..,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.,,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements)
No,,, nothing insulting there. :noway:inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
If I typed the same thing verbatim but with "Christianity" instead of "Atheism" the Christaliban would flame me to a crisp.
Atheism is not a movement at all, and certainly not a "protest". Wow,,, just too much to argue with here, which is why I didn't. Wow.
I stand by all this. This was my response as to why SOME atheists take their children to church. You know how I came to this opinion? By conversing with other atheists!!! Before I even typed that, I had conversations with some of my atheist friends about the article. Remember that not all atheists are the same, just as all Christians are not.0 -
Patti's original quote - verbatim:
And the juicy parts:Interesting. Clearly those atheists who take their kids to church because they want them to “make up their own mind” do not think religion is “evil.” Surely they wouldn’t want their kids to “choose” something that is intrinsically bad for them. We don’t put our kids in a situation where they will harm themselves just so they can have choices, do we? Atheists who take their kids to church and want them to have a legitimate basis of making a decision about religion seem to betray, perhaps, a deeper unsettledness on the matter. Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. Since religion addresses such matters that atheists cannot, it makes sense to me that loving parents, even if they have trouble believing, secretly hope their kids will find something that will give them a more fulfilled life than their own. It is interesting how parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements) have a hard time transmitting the same kind of atheism to their children. Children often see through the inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.... atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is..,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.,,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements)
No,,, nothing insulting there. :noway:inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
If I typed the same thing verbatim but with "Christianity" instead of "Atheism" the Christaliban would flame me to a crisp.
Atheism is not a movement at all, and certainly not a "protest". Wow,,, just too much to argue with here, which is why I didn't. Wow.
I stand by all this. This was my response as to why SOME atheists take their children to church. You know how I came to this opinion? By conversing with other atheists!!! Before I even typed that, I had conversations with some of my atheist friends about the article. Remember that not all atheists are the same, just as all Christians are not.
Wow, that must have been a deep conversation since the OP posted this at 11:31, you had to read the article, and then you had I'm sure a healthy discussion with several atheist friends who just happened to be standing next to you, and then wrote your reply by 12:00. 29 minutes to get all that info is amazing.0 -
So If I have a conversation with a born again fundie who agrees that their version of God is a bit of an egotistical sadist then it's OK to say that right? It's not offensive because it was said by a Christian right? I know some fundie type people who have a pretty dry wit. They have no issue at all with agreeing about stuff like that. I even forwarded them some of Adrian's pictures and they cracked up. So I guess those aren't offensive either. *shrug*0
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Patti's original quote - verbatim:
And the juicy parts:Interesting. Clearly those atheists who take their kids to church because they want them to “make up their own mind” do not think religion is “evil.” Surely they wouldn’t want their kids to “choose” something that is intrinsically bad for them. We don’t put our kids in a situation where they will harm themselves just so they can have choices, do we? Atheists who take their kids to church and want them to have a legitimate basis of making a decision about religion seem to betray, perhaps, a deeper unsettledness on the matter. Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. Since religion addresses such matters that atheists cannot, it makes sense to me that loving parents, even if they have trouble believing, secretly hope their kids will find something that will give them a more fulfilled life than their own. It is interesting how parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements) have a hard time transmitting the same kind of atheism to their children. Children often see through the inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.... atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is..,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.,,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements)
No,,, nothing insulting there. :noway:inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
If I typed the same thing verbatim but with "Christianity" instead of "Atheism" the Christaliban would flame me to a crisp.
Atheism is not a movement at all, and certainly not a "protest". Wow,,, just too much to argue with here, which is why I didn't. Wow.
I stand by all this. This was my response as to why SOME atheists take their children to church. You know how I came to this opinion? By conversing with other atheists!!! Before I even typed that, I had conversations with some of my atheist friends about the article. Remember that not all atheists are the same, just as all Christians are not.
Wow, that must have been a deep conversation since the OP posted this at 11:31, you had to read the article, and then you had I'm sure a healthy discussion with several atheist friends who just happened to be standing next to you, and then wrote your reply by 12:00. 29 minutes to get all that info is amazing.
Que "The article came out the day before. I read it then and immediately called some Atheists (Which, BTW, should be capitalized the same way Muslim, Christian, etc are) and discussed it..." in 5...4...3...0 -
So If I have a conversation with a born again fundie who agrees that their version of God is a bit of an egotistical sadist then it's OK to say that right? It's not offensive because it was said by a Christian right? I know some fundie type people who have a pretty dry wit. They have no issue at all with agreeing about stuff like that. I even forwarded them some of Adrian's pictures and they cracked up. So I guess those aren't offensive either. *shrug*
You think my pictures are funny? You just fed my out of control ego and deserve another poster!
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This discussion has been closed.