Atheists Go to church for their kids
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But do you teach them how not to?
Just seemed like something you might need help with.... how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is.
,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.
,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements
inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
Never mind. You still don't understand how those words sound to others.0 -
But do you teach them how not to?
Just seemed like something you might need help with.... how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is.
,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.
,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements
inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
Never mind. You still don't understand how those words sound to others.
Yeah, I don't need your help. If you haven't noticed, there were other non-believers on here who weren't insulted by my comments. I think we're pretty much done here, so carry on.0 -
But do you teach them how not to?
Just seemed like something you might need help with.... how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is.
,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.
,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements
inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
Never mind. You still don't understand how those words sound to others.
It is fundamental conceit, not only of "relgionists", but I believe of society in general, that religion is necessary to provide a "moral foundation"--both for individuals and society. This is so ingrained in our culture that even someone who considers themselves thoughtful, reasonable, tolerant -- a "good" christian, if you will -- can casually throw out the most insulting comments without even realizing it, displaying an obtuseness that is breathtaking.
This assumption that "religion = morality" means that it is all too simple for politicians, evangelists and other grifters to create a false persona by artfully manipulating common religious phrases and symbols.
IMO people who exhibit high "morals" in their beliefs and actions do so in spite of religion, not because of it. "Good" people may use religion as a tool to manifest their "goodness", the way an artist can express his/her vision in different mediums, but they would be "good" under any circumstances, whether they professed a particular "faith" or not.0 -
Exactly! I've heard of Christians who claim that they take their kids to Muslim, Jewish, other Christian, etc worship services but frankly, I doubt it. And for those who actually do, I'm sure that afterwards they criticize them and talk about how they would be so much better off if they were of the same denomination. I cannot imagine a fundie Chrisitan ever being OK with their teenager wanting to become a Muslim or even regularly attending an Islamic youth group.Bypassing all the other posts and pics, I'd have to say that I don't really "get" the concept of atheists bringing their kids to church. Why? I get that they want their kids to learn about the world, etc., but what's the point? I'm an atheist because I flat-out think religion is a waste of time and people would be better off without one.
I don't ever plan on having kids, but in the highly unlikely event that I did, I'd support them if they chose to join some sort of religion. I mean, I'd think it was kind of dumb and I wouldn't participate in it with them, but I'd still support them and love them all the same. But I don't think it would be my place to bring them into a house of worship when I'm pretty morally against houses of worship and everything they stand for. It's not like Christian or Jewish or Muslim or all the other religions' parents bring their kids to each religious place so they can "decide for themselves", it's just one of those things where if it happens, it happens. I wouldn't actively prevent my hypothetical children from becoming involved in a religion, but I sure wouldn't be encouraging it.0 -
Instead of listening to a Christian, why don't some if you read works by some famous atheists? None of the things I've stated are denied by all atheists. You continue to put words in my mouth and make assumptions about what I think of all atheists. If you're an atheist, study what it is you claim to be and then stand in those convictions.0
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Who? I see a lot of people who really think you don't get it. You get all insulted if someone gives their negative opinion on your religion but seem to not understand that your negative opinion on their views are equally insulting. No one expects you to embrace atheists as correct. I just don't see where it's so difficult to acknowledge that negative comments and the feelings they create works both ways. *confused*But do you teach them how not to?
Just seemed like something you might need help with.... how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is.
,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.
,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements
inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
Never mind. You still don't understand how those words sound to others.
Yeah, I don't need your help. If you haven't noticed, there were other non-believers on here who weren't insulted by my comments. I think we're pretty much done here, so carry on.
Imagine if someone here said this about Christianity:
The Christian world view is impovershing. I'm glad some fundie parents let their kids sleep in on Sundays and not attend church. It will help them have a more fulfilled life than their own. Parents who adopt Christianity (or other fundie lemming type movements) have strong inconsistencies and inadequacies. Obviously, Christian parents who let their child decide if they really want to be a Christian are secretly hoping their child will choose differently and not have to deal with the parents' same unsettledness. Deep down, those parents must know that Christianity is illogical and unfulfilling.
You'd accuse them of a personal attack and leave. But you said very nearly the exact same thing on multiple occasions and don't seem to understand that you were just as rude and insulting as you'd perceive someone who said it about Christianity to be.0 -
So you'd agree with Fred Phelps then? After all, he's a famous Christian. You do realize that we could say some truly horrible things about Christianity and then come back with "None of the things I've stated are denied by all Christians." Does that make it right? Hell, I could throw out Bible quotes that make the Christian version of God look bad. There are plenty of them. Do you stand in those convictions? Because they back up the POV that your God is an egotistical sadist.Instead of listening to a Christian, why don't some if you read works by some famous atheists? None of the things I've stated are denied by all atheists. You continue to put words in my mouth and make assumptions about what I think of all atheists. If you're an atheist, study what it is you claim to be and then stand in those convictions.0 -
You're not trying to understand what I'm saying. You continue to put words in my mouth. I am a Carholic Christian. I know what my church teaches. I stand on my convictions. The atheist whom I have respectful discussions with actually understand what it means to be an atheist and they stand in those convictions. We can be respectful without offending one another. I find the Christians and the non-believers who get so offended don't really understand their belief. Discuss among yourselves why atheists take their children to church.0
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Funny, I find Christians who get so offended don't really understand their beliefs. Fred Phelps and Popes who cover up child molestation understand what it means to be a Christian and they and their followers stand in those convictions.You're not trying to understand what I'm saying. You continue to put words in my mouth. I am a Carholic Christian. I know what my church teaches. I stand on my convictions. The atheist whom I have respectful discussions with actually understand what it means to be an atheist and they stand in those convictions. We can be respectful without offending one another. I find the Christians and the non-believers who get so offended don't really understand their belief. Discuss among yourselves why atheists take their children to church.0 -
Funny, I find Christians who get so offended don't really understand their beliefs. Fred Phelps and Popes who cover up child molestation understand what it means to be a Christian and they and their followers stand in those convictions.You're not trying to understand what I'm saying. You continue to put words in my mouth. I am a Carholic Christian. I know what my church teaches. I stand on my convictions. The atheist whom I have respectful discussions with actually understand what it means to be an atheist and they stand in those convictions. We can be respectful without offending one another. I find the Christians and the non-believers who get so offended don't really understand their belief. Discuss among yourselves why atheists take their children to church.
Really? Do you really want to name all the horrible things atheists and Christians have done? You're reaching here. Nothing original in people attacking Christianity by naming every Christian they know who has done something horrible. Find where I said all Christians are morally upstanding people. Find where I said all Christians are better than all atheists. Find where I said no Christian has ever done something wrong. Find where I said all atheists are evil and will go to hell. Find where I said I do t trust atheists, I'm afraid of them, or anything so crazy as that.0 -
Patti, I think part of the issue that people are having with your claims is that you are saying that other atheists will back them up, or that other atheists themselves said it. The problem is that just as certain Christians cannot and do not represent the group as a whole, the same can be said for atheists. Just because some of them said something or accepted a claim, doesn't mean that their opinions and beliefs stand for all.0
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I never claimed any of that. You are just making my point though that you dish it out and claim it's all hunky dory but then get upset and offended when someone says the exact same thing back to you.
Funny, I find Christians who get so offended don't really understand their beliefs. Fred Phelps and Popes who cover up child molestation understand what it means to be a Christian and they and their followers stand in those convictions.You're not trying to understand what I'm saying. You continue to put words in my mouth. I am a Carholic Christian. I know what my church teaches. I stand on my convictions. The atheist whom I have respectful discussions with actually understand what it means to be an atheist and they stand in those convictions. We can be respectful without offending one another. I find the Christians and the non-believers who get so offended don't really understand their belief. Discuss among yourselves why atheists take their children to church.
Really? Do you really want to name all the horrible things atheists and Christians have done? You're reaching here. Nothing original in people attacking Christianity by naming every Christian they know who has done something horrible. Find where I said all Christians are morally upstanding people. Find where I said all Christians are better than all atheists. Find where I said no Christian has ever done something wrong. Find where I said all atheists are evil and will go to hell. Find where I said I do t trust atheists, I'm afraid of them, or anything so crazy as that.0 -
^^^ Yea, and that.Patti, I think part of the issue that people are having with your claims is that you are saying that other atheists will back them up, or that other atheists themselves said it. The problem is that just as certain Christians cannot and do not represent the group as a whole, the same can be said for atheists. Just because some of them said something or accepted a claim, doesn't mean that their opinions and beliefs stand for all.0 -
Patti, I think part of the issue that people are having with your claims is that you are saying that other atheists will back them up, or that other atheists themselves said it. The problem is that just as certain Christians cannot and do not represent the group as a whole, the same can be said for atheists. Just because some of them said something or accepted a claim, doesn't mean that their opinions and beliefs stand for all.
No. They had an issue with me before I ever said that. They have an issue with me because they have an issue with Christianity, the church, or God. They don't like my claims, which happen to be true in some cases. Just as their claims of priests molesting children are true. Notice I've never defended those actions. I find them deplorable. Just because atheism has no moral foundation, does not mean atheists can't be good people. The confusion is when people don't know what that even means.0 -
Fish - water,,,0
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"They" had an issue with you before you said that specific thing because you have said so many similar things. I have no issue with Christianity (I am an agnostic with Christian leanings and grew up Catholic), the church (although that's a pretty broad definition as there are soooo many denominations with soooo many different styles), or God (I pray sometimes). It's YOU. It's the fact that you dish it out (and based on your continued harping on "atheism has no moral foundation" you are either not very bright or you know EXACXTLY what you are doing and it's not very Christian.) but can't handle even a tiny bit being dished back at you. No, you didn't defend the priests. But you do get offended and hair flip when someone says the God of the Bible is an egotistical sadist or some even less harsh things as well even though those claims are true in some cases. Just because Christians have no moral foundation without having to read about it in a book doesn't mean they can't be good people.Patti, I think part of the issue that people are having with your claims is that you are saying that other atheists will back them up, or that other atheists themselves said it. The problem is that just as certain Christians cannot and do not represent the group as a whole, the same can be said for atheists. Just because some of them said something or accepted a claim, doesn't mean that their opinions and beliefs stand for all.
No. They had an issue with me before I ever said that. They have an issue with me because they have an issue with Christianity, the church, or God. They don't like my claims, which happen to be true in some cases. Just as their claims of priests molesting children are true. Notice I've never defended those actions. I find them deplorable. Just because atheism has no moral foundation, does not mean atheists can't be good people. The confusion is when people don't know what that even means.
I'm still wondering which non believers you didn't insult.0 -
Nothing out of context, no words taken out of a mouth. You said it and you meant it.... how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is.
,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.
,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements
inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
Now if you had said "My friend Tina has said that she hoped her kids could have faith, because she feels somewhat impoverished because she doesn't believe in a higher power",,, that might have been Okie. If you'd even tossed in some little disclaimer like "In some cases", you might have gotten a pass. But you said ""Atheists who take their kids to church and want them to have a legitimate basis of making a decision about religion seem to betray, perhaps, a deeper unsettledness on the matter. Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is."". That's a blanket statement. "ATHEISM IS AN IMPOVERISHING WORLD VIEW", cut and dry. A crystal clear indictment of and insult to several million people and an entire point of view. And you won't back off, and you won't apologize.
I'm not even an atheist, but I have dear dear friends who are, and I get ticked when somebody calls them names. :grumble:0 -
What are you talking about when you keep saying I dish it out but can't take it? I've continued in every debate and stood on everything I've said. I said I was not going to debate with someone who is going to resort to name calling, immature posters of cartoon characters, and ridicule. I'm all for the debate. Go back and look at some of the ones I've had. I've never backed down, even with people coming at me from all sides."They" had an issue with you before you said that specific thing because you have said so many similar things. I have no issue with Christianity (I am an agnostic with Christian leanings and grew up Catholic), the church (although that's a pretty broad definition as there are soooo many denominations with soooo many different styles), or God (I pray sometimes). It's YOU. It's the fact that you dish it out (and based on your continued harping on "atheism has no moral foundation" you are either not very bright or you know EXACXTLY what you are doing and it's not very Christian.) but can't handle even a tiny bit being dished back at you.
I have said this myself numerous times! What is your point?Just because Christians have no moral foundation without having to read about it in a book doesn't mean they can't be good people.0 -
Patti, I think part of the issue that people are having with your claims is that you are saying that other atheists will back them up, or that other atheists themselves said it. The problem is that just as certain Christians cannot and do not represent the group as a whole, the same can be said for atheists. Just because some of them said something or accepted a claim, doesn't mean that their opinions and beliefs stand for all.
No. They had an issue with me before I ever said that. They have an issue with me because they have an issue with Christianity, the church, or God. They don't like my claims, which happen to be true in some cases. Just as their claims of priests molesting children are true. Notice I've never defended those actions. I find them deplorable. Just because atheism has no moral foundation, does not mean atheists can't be good people. The confusion is when people don't know what that even means.
Well I meant the people that are specifically referencing your statements in this thread. I get that you are making these statements based off what other atheists are supposedly telling you. But I might suggest, instead of using a blanket statement, maybe present it in a "I was told by another atheist that their views are ....." and then leave it open for the non-believers here to evaluate that statement and either support or disagree with it.0 -
Nothing out of context, no words taken out of a mouth. You said it and you meant it... how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is.
,,, give them a more fulfilled life than their own.
,, parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements
inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
Now if you had said "My friend Tina has said that she hoped her kids could have faith, because she feels somewhat impoverished because she doesn't believe in a higher power",,, that might have been Okie. If you'd even tossed in some little disclaimer like "In some cases", you might have gotten a pass. But you said ""Atheists who take their kids to church and want them to have a legitimate basis of making a decision about religion seem to betray, perhaps, a deeper unsettledness on the matter. Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is."". That's a blanket statement. "ATHEISM IS AN IMPOVERISHING WORLD VIEW", cut and dry. A crystal clear indictment of and insult to several million people and an entire point of view. And you won't back off, and you won't apologize[/quote]
Here is my quote, Casper:Interesting. Clearly those atheists who take their kids to church because they want them to “make up their own mind” do not think religion is “evil.” Surely they wouldn’t want their kids to “choose” something that is intrinsically bad for them. We don’t put our kids in a situation where they will harm themselves just so they can have choices, do we? Atheists who take their kids to church and want them to have a legitimate basis of making a decision about religion seem to betray, perhaps, a deeper unsettledness on the matter. Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. Since religion addresses such matters that atheists cannot, it makes sense to me that loving parents, even if they have trouble believing, secretly hope their kids will find something that will give them a more fulfilled life than their own. It is interesting how parents who adopt atheism (or other “protest” type movements) have a hard time transmitting the same kind of atheism to their children. Children often see through the inconsistencies and inadequacies of their parents’ ideological choices.
Please note that I used the words "perhaps" and "maybe" You cannot deny that some atheists do not feel they have a fulfilled life. The ones who take their children to church may do so because they don't want that for their children. If the atheists who take their children to church do not have a hard time transmitting the same kind of atheism to their children, then why are they there with them????? And how can it not seem inconsistent if an atheist parent is taking a child to church? I still don't see what is wrong with my above statement. You make it sound like I'm saying ALL atheists think these things. Each time you quoted me, you failed to use the words "maybe" and "perhaps". That is taking my quotes out of context and using them in a twisted manner to reflect something I did not say.0 -
Well I meant the people that are specifically referencing your statements in this thread. I get that you are making these statements based off what other atheists are supposedly telling you. But I might suggest, instead of using a blanket statement, maybe present it in a "I was told by another atheist that their views are ....." and then leave it open for the non-believers here to evaluate that statement and either support or disagree with it.
Gotcha. I'll try that, but my guess is they wouldn't believe I've actually spoken to an atheist anyway.
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Well I meant the people that are specifically referencing your statements in this thread. I get that you are making these statements based off what other atheists are supposedly telling you. But I might suggest, instead of using a blanket statement, maybe present it in a "I was told by another atheist that their views are ....." and then leave it open for the non-believers here to evaluate that statement and either support or disagree with it.
Gotcha. I'll try that, but my guess is they wouldn't believe I've actually spoken to an atheist anyway.
LOL well I think you and I have a sort of understanding even though our views are different. I don't believe you're intending for your statements to be taken in a way other than what you actually meant, but that's just me.
I'm curious though...where are you talking to these atheists that are telling you such things? Of the atheists/agnostics I know, most would not agree with those statements.0 -
Bypassing all the other posts and pics, I'd have to say that I don't really "get" the concept of atheists bringing their kids to church. Why? I get that they want their kids to learn about the world, etc., but what's the point? I'm an atheist because I flat-out think religion is a waste of time and people would be better off without one.
I don't ever plan on having kids, but in the highly unlikely event that I did, I'd support them if they chose to join some sort of religion. I mean, I'd think it was kind of dumb and I wouldn't participate in it with them, but I'd still support them and love them all the same. But I don't think it would be my place to bring them into a house of worship when I'm pretty morally against houses of worship and everything they stand for. It's not like Christian or Jewish or Muslim or all the other religions' parents bring their kids to each religious place so they can "decide for themselves", it's just one of those things where if it happens, it happens. I wouldn't actively prevent my hypothetical children from becoming involved in a religion, but I sure wouldn't be encouraging it.
This is refreshing. You and Kimmy are at least standing on your beliefs. You're an atheist, so why would you attend church with your children? If my child decides to become atheist and attend atheist meetings, I'm certainly not going to attend with him. I will always love him and want him in my life, but I wouldn't attend an atheist meeting with him. Like you said, I wouldn't take my children to different churches every Sunday just so they can make up their own minds. We are Catholic. While living in my home, they'll attend Catholic mass with us. Once they're out on their own, they can choose to explore other beliefs. I'm not going to actively prevent my children from changing denominations, but I'm not going to take them to various churches.0 -
Of course some atheists don't lead a fulfilled life. Many many people from all religious backgrounds don't lead a fulfilled life.
An atheist parent taking a child to church can be perfectly consistent. What church are we talking about? My church is full of atheists. OTOH - I live in appalachia, and I know of churches where they handle snakes and speak in tongues, and I promise you there are no atheists there.
I'd still like to see what churches these folks are taking their kids to. As we discussed, UU churches are perfect for atheists who want to explore spirituality without committing to any particular version of the deity or to any deity at all. I know that UU'ism is commonly misunderstood by folks, and probably not grasped at all by some hack trying to stomp out a news story in 4 hours flat.
Ok, I snipped you for brevity and might have gotten a 'maybe' by mistake, but let's read your sentence. ""Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. "" At the risk of sounding like a lawyer, you didn't say "Maybe the atheist world view is impoverished",,, that might make some sense. You said "Maybe they see..." and then stated the "impoverished" part as a statement of fact - which it kind'a ain't. That's exactly what you said.0 -
I'm curious though...where are you talking to these atheists that are telling you such things? Of the atheists/agnostics I know, most would not agree with those statements.
Depends on what statement I made that we're referring to. LOL. I have friends IRL who are atheist. We chat all the time about atheism and Christianity. My friend, Trey, is very involved in the atheist movement here in Houston (and is trying to get me to attend a meeting of theirs). He agrees that atheism has no moral "foundation". He claims that atheists who want to argue that point just don't understand what it means. He says he doesn't give a rat's @ss that he has no moral "foundation", though. Says he doesn't need one. However, he's not offended when a Christian makes that statement, because it's true. I've chatted with an atheist on here who says something pretty similar to that (regarding moral foundation). There is also another atheist on here who I chat with who can understand what I'm saying without being offended by it. I've studied atheism, and read many books on the subject. I realize not every atheist is a Dawkins fan, but I've read his works, too. I've found the book, "An Atheist Defends Religion" as a good source for why some atheists would take their children to church. So, I don't make these statements by just sitting in my own little Christian world without knowing what I'm talking about. Because I don't come across as intended, it's probably best for me not to get into religious debates on here. I can correspond well with a few, but not the majority.0 -
I'm curious though...where are you talking to these atheists that are telling you such things? Of the atheists/agnostics I know, most would not agree with those statements.
Depends on what statement I made that we're referring to. LOL. I have friends IRL who are atheist. We chat all the time about atheism and Christianity. My friend, Trey, is very involved in the atheist movement here in Houston (and is trying to get me to attend a meeting of theirs). He agrees that atheism has no moral "foundation". He claims that atheists who want to argue that point just doing understand what it means. He says he doesn't give a rat's @ss that he has no moral "foundation", though. Says he doesn't need one. However, he's not offended when a Christian makes that statement, because it's true. I've chatted with an atheist on here who says something pretty similar to that (regarding moral foundation). There is also another atheist on here who I chat with who can understand what I'm saying without being offended by it. I've studied atheism, and read many books on the subject. I realize not every atheist is a Dawkins fan, but I've read his works, too. I've found the book, "An Atheist Defends Religion" as a good source for why some atheists would take their children to church. So, I don't make these statements by just sitting in my own little Christian world without knowing what I'm talking about. Because I don't come across as intended, it's probably best for me not to get into religious debates on here. I can correspond well with a few, but not the majority.
Well I guess it depends on how people are defining 'foundation' in terms of morality. I can see an atheist saying he doesn't have a moral foundation if by foundation he's referring to a religion as the sole basis of a grounded morality. But as you've seen in debates here, many atheists don't have the same views on what can and cannot 'count' as a foundation for their own morality.
Your friend sounds fun, I'm sure I'd find him delightful!0 -
Ok, I snipped you for brevity and might have gotten a 'maybe' by mistake, but let's read your sentence. ""Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. "" At the risk of sounding like a lawyer, you didn't say "Maybe the atheist world view is impoverished",,, that might make some sense. You said "Maybe they see..." and then stated the "impoverished" part as a statement of fact - which it kind'a ain't. That's exactly what you said.
Well, then your issue is where I placed the word "maybe", that you snipped a couple of times for brevity. You also left out the word "perhaps". I suppose a good lawyer could take my word placement and twist them around to confuse a jury, though. I'll be more thoughtful when I type statements that I intend to be "possible" reasons so they don't sound like I'm making blanket, sweeping claims.0 -
Ok, I snipped you for brevity and might have gotten a 'maybe' by mistake, but let's read your sentence. ""Maybe also these atheists see how impoverishing the atheist world-view really is. "" At the risk of sounding like a lawyer, you didn't say "Maybe the atheist world view is impoverished",,, that might make some sense. You said "Maybe they see..." and then stated the "impoverished" part as a statement of fact - which it kind'a ain't. That's exactly what you said.
Well, then your issue is where I placed the word "maybe", that you snipped a couple of times for brevity. You also left out the word "perhaps". I suppose a good lawyer could take my word placement and twist them around to confuse a jury, though. I'll be more thoughtful when I type statements that I intend to be "possible" reasons so they don't sound like I'm making blanket, sweeping claims.
To be fair, the way it read sounded like a statement of fact, sounding like atheists come to the realization of how 'impoverished' their views REALLY are, emphasizing the 'really' part.0 -
Your friend sounds fun, I'm sure I'd find him delightful!
Oh, Trey is a hoot! He likes to tag me on his Facebook when he's talking to his atheist friends or when making fun of a Rick Perry ad. He was telling me about another mutual friend he ran into at one of his atheist meetings and said to him, "What the hell are you doing here"? I asked if that's how atheists greet each other at meetings, so now we use that line every time we meet for lunch or something. It's really nice when you can get along with someone who doesn't share your views on religion. We learn from each other and make each other think. I've met people on here who do the same thing for me.0 -
To be fair, the way it read sounded like a statement of fact, sounding like atheists come to the realization of how 'impoverished' their views REALLY are, emphasizing the 'really' part.
I can see that. There are some atheists who think they have impoverished world views, who are angry at God, who feel unsettled. I just mean that maybe that's why THOSE atheists take their children to church. Not even sure if that sounds any better than the first time I typed it!0
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