Atheists Go to church for their kids
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It always disappoints me when some one can smile, speak politely and tell me I have no moral foundation like Patti has done in the past.
I did make the statement that atheism has no moral "foundation". We discussed morality a great deal in the evolution thread. You're confusing moral "foundation" with "moral deeds". You tried to make it seem like I was saying that because atheists have no moral foundation, they are horrible people who murder, steal, cheat, rape, etc. Nothing I ever said. You keep saying that I said atheists are going to burn in hell, which I never said. You're taking what the church teaches and putting words in my mouth because I'm a Christian. Even Brett commented in that thread explaining from an atheist's point of view what I was saying by moral "foundation". Brett even went on further to say that IF there is a God and IF there is a hell, atheists will go there. But, if you're an atheist, you don't believe in hell, so why does that bother you?0 -
I like how it's assumed that nonbelievers deep-down feel unsettled and that we hope that our kids will be able to 'believe' in something we cannot.
Maybe it's that we don't like stuff being forced on us and told what is absolute truth in regard to religion, so we're going to show the same courtesy to our kids that want to explore their options by not discouraging their quest for answers.
ETA: That said, it sucks feeling unsettled. It's something I struggle with at times. So if my kids ultimately feel at peace, no matter what their belief is, then that is what I will support.0 -
I like how it's assumed that nonbelievers deep-down feel unsettled and that we hope that our kids will be able to 'believe' in something we cannot.
Maybe it's that we don't like stuff being forced on us and told what is absolute truth in regard to religion, so we're going to show the same courtesy to our kids that want to explore their options by not discouraging their quest for answers.
If I could like this, I certainly would :flowerforyou:0 -
I think it is offensive to say that someones world view is impoverishing. I don't let comments like that bother me because I am sure my opinions offend people as well. Its a debate board, its pretty easy to run into offensive views. (and you never what is going to offend someone)0
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Great post!I like how it's assumed that nonbelievers deep-down feel unsettled and that we hope that our kids will be able to 'believe' in something we cannot.
Maybe it's that we don't like stuff being forced on us and told what is absolute truth in regard to religion, so we're going to show the same courtesy to our kids that want to explore their options by not discouraging their quest for answers.
ETA: That said, it sucks feeling unsettled. It's something I struggle with at times. So if my kids ultimately feel at peace, no matter what their belief is, then that is what I will support.0 -
Actually, IF there is a God and If there is a hell has little relevance at all as to who will end up there. Now, IF there is a God and IF THAT GOD IS THE CHRISTIAN VERSION OF GOD and IF there is a hell, THEN Atheists will end up in hell. However, if that God is the Muslim version or Hindu version or ancient Greek version or Flying Spaghetti Monster version or Buddhist version, etc, etc, etc then Atheists AND Christians may or may not end up in Hell.It always disappoints me when some one can smile, speak politely and tell me I have no moral foundation like Patti has done in the past.
I did make the statement that atheism has no moral "foundation". We discussed morality a great deal in the evolution thread. You're confusing moral "foundation" with "moral deeds". You tried to make it seem like I was saying that because atheists have no moral foundation, they are horrible people who murder, steal, cheat, rape, etc. Nothing I ever said. You keep saying that I said atheists are going to burn in hell, which I never said. You're taking what the church teaches and putting words in my mouth because I'm a Christian. Even Brett commented in that thread explaining from an atheist's point of view what I was saying by moral "foundation". Brett even went on further to say that IF there is a God and IF there is a hell, atheists will go there. But, if you're an atheist, you don't believe in hell, so why does that bother you?
The comments of "Well you don't believe in hell anyhow so why do you care if I tell you that you will burn for all eternity." annoy the hell out of me (pun intended). I don't care if someone likes me or not but that doesn't mean them saying "You're such a b****!" wouldn't bother me. I may not care if you think I'm attractive but saying "That outfit makes you look sick and fat." would bother me too. Really, that sort of comment about Hell and comments like that are a decent part of why I turned away from Christianity in the first place. I remember questioning my mom as to why women couldn't be priests. She said "You don't want to be a priest anyhow so why do you care?" I replied "I don't want to be a doctor either but I wouldn't like it if women couldn't be doctors. Just because I don't want to be part of something doesn't mean I have to be accepting of it's discriminations." It's the same way with the Hell comments. Just because I believe you go there based on your deeds not whether or not you pray to a deity that is that incredibly egotistical that He would send His children to hell for having doubts doesn't mean I have to sit back and just shrug it off when someone tries to say that I'm doing it wrong and will be punished for all eternity because of it.0 -
It always disappoints me when some one can smile, speak politely and tell me I have no moral foundation like Patti has done in the past.
I did make the statement that atheism has no moral "foundation". We discussed morality a great deal in the evolution thread. You're confusing moral "foundation" with "moral deeds". You tried to make it seem like I was saying that because atheists have no moral foundation, they are horrible people who murder, steal, cheat, rape, etc. Nothing I ever said. You keep saying that I said atheists are going to burn in hell, which I never said. You're taking what the church teaches and putting words in my mouth because I'm a Christian. Even Brett commented in that thread explaining from an atheist's point of view what I was saying by moral "foundation". Brett even went on further to say that IF there is a God and IF there is a hell, atheists will go there. But, if you're an atheist, you don't believe in hell, so why does that bother you?
Morality is something that society dictates, more than religion. Differing religions all agree on many morals, and we, as a society, also agree. I see more differences in morals based on geographical location than I do on religion.
I think that whatever makes people treat one another with respect and kindness - be it religion, law or societal norms, is wonderful.0 -
It always disappoints me when some one can smile, speak politely and tell me I have no moral foundation like Patti has done in the past.
I did make the statement that atheism has no moral "foundation". We discussed morality a great deal in the evolution thread. You're confusing moral "foundation" with "moral deeds". You tried to make it seem like I was saying that because atheists have no moral foundation, they are horrible people who murder, steal, cheat, rape, etc. Nothing I ever said. You keep saying that I said atheists are going to burn in hell, which I never said. You're taking what the church teaches and putting words in my mouth because I'm a Christian. Even Brett commented in that thread explaining from an atheist's point of view what I was saying by moral "foundation". Brett even went on further to say that IF there is a God and IF there is a hell, atheists will go there. But, if you're an atheist, you don't believe in hell, so why does that bother you?
Well, if you are a believer, then why would my ridicule of your religion bother you? Oh, that's right, because if you are offensive it's ok. If I dare question your beliefs, I'm being a bully. And, no, you never said I would burn in hell. You just said that if you children weren't Christians they weren't going to go to heaven or what ever garbage you spewed. So what is the alternative to heaven in Christian Dogma? Quit beating around the bush and just say what your religion preaches.
And also, it offends me that a christian, a member of a faith that has 100s of denomenations can question some one elses moral foundation. How is it you claim to grasp these grand concepts like transendence and enlightenment, but can't seem to understand that humans can have a rock solid moral foundation without suscribing to some bronze age non-sense. That's like saying you can't design your own home unless you pick one of a few predetermined and generic models.0 -
The comments of "Well you don't believe in hell anyhow so why do you care if I tell you that you will burn for all eternity." annoy the hell out of me (pun intended).
I'm not the one who said this to Adrian. That's what I was pointing out. Those comments were made by an atheist, not me.0 -
There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.0
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There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.
^this ....... throwing up little pictures or insults does not make for a compelling debate. Its the equivalent of blowing a rasberry at someone because you can not think of anything better to say.0 -
There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.
Yes, yes, my offensive language lost my credibility I know. It must be my impoverished world view, or my secret yearning for a more furfilling life. Or, maybe you are just hiding behind fancy language and being a hypocrite.0 -
There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.
^this ....... throwing up little pictures or insults does not make for a compelling debate. Its the equivalent of blowing a rasberry at someone because you can not think of anything better to say.
Really though, I rather enjoy the memes and the pics. But then again, even I don't take this board too seriously.0 -
There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.
^this ....... throwing up little pictures or insults does not make for a compelling debate. Its the equivalent of blowing a rasberry at someone because you can not think of anything better to say.
Really though, I rather enjoy the memes and the pics. But then again, even I don't take this board too seriously.
I never said they were not funny,but I dont think they have any place in a debate.Its like saying "neener neener neener"0 -
Really though, I rather enjoy the memes and the pics. But then again, even I don't take this board too seriously.
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hahaha I'm in love :laugh: :smooched:0 -
Hey, all I ask for all the defenders of the Pattimeister is to take a deep breath and go back to page one of this thread. Read my first comment, then read hers. If you can honestly say I was the one who was purposely offensive, then you have no objectivity. I will not relent that everything she says, although candy coated, is just as malicious, demeaning, and offensive to atheists as anything I have said since to push her buttons. But that is part of the problem, isn't it. The believer can say without hesitation that we atheists and agnostics have a impoverished world view, unfufilled lives, our children will see through are inadequete world view, and some of you are so biased, or easily distracted by my fancy cartoon pictures, that you don't even realize it IS offensive. But lo and behold, I poke fun at their religion and their God, I'm a bully. Is their a name for the sickness of throwing the first punch and then claiming to be an assault vicitm?
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There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.
^this ....... throwing up little pictures or insults does not make for a compelling debate. Its the equivalent of blowing a rasberry at someone because you can not think of anything better to say.
Really though, I rather enjoy the memes and the pics. But then again, even I don't take this board too seriously.
I never said they were not funny,but I dont think they have any place in a debate.Its like saying "neener neener neener"
I guess so. I disagree, but that's okay.0 -
^^This and I happen to like your sense of humor.There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.
Yes, yes, my offensive language lost my credibility I know. It must be my impoverished world view, or my secret yearning for a more furfilling life. Or, maybe you are just hiding behind fancy language and being a hypocrite.0 -
That first quote was said by me. I'm not an Atheist and never claimed to be. I just don't like rude religious people (of any denomination) trying to tell me that I'm doing it wrong based on their religion.
The comments of "Well you don't believe in hell anyhow so why do you care if I tell you that you will burn for all eternity." annoy the hell out of me (pun intended).
I'm not the one who said this to Adrian. That's what I was pointing out. Those comments were made by an atheist, not me.0 -
But why would it matter if a non-Christian ridiculed Christianity? You don't believe they are right anyhow. See? This is exactly like the "Why do you care if I say you are going to hell if you don't believe in hell anyhow?" argument only thrown back at you. It's rude, condescending, and insulting.There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.0 -
That first quote was said by me. I'm not an Atheist and never claimed to be. I just don't like rude religious people (of any denomination) trying to tell me that I'm doing it wrong based on their religion
Maybe you've also said that, but I was referring to that comment being made by an atheist.0 -
There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.But why would it matter if a non-Christian ridiculed Christianity? You don't believe they are right anyhow. See? This is exactly like the "Why do you care if I say you are going to hell if you don't believe in hell anyhow?" argument only thrown back at you. It's rude, condescending, and insulting.
There is a huge difference. I DO care what people say about God, especially in a conversation I'm in. I'm not talking about the differences in our faith. I'm specifically speaking of the name calling, ridiculing, and offensive pictures. Once a person resorts to those tactics, they've lost a debate. And that goes for any debate, not just religious ones.0 -
Who? Where?That first quote was said by me. I'm not an Atheist and never claimed to be. I just don't like rude religious people (of any denomination) trying to tell me that I'm doing it wrong based on their religion
Maybe you've also said that, but I was referring to that comment being made by an atheist.0 -
Hey, all I ask for all the defenders of the Pattimeister is to take a deep breath and go back to page one of this thread. Read my first comment, then read hers. If you can honestly say I was the one who was purposely offensive, then you have no objectivity. I will not relent that everything she says, although candy coated, is just as malicious, demeaning, and offensive to atheists as anything I have said since to push her buttons. But that is part of the problem, isn't it. The believer can say without hesitation that we atheists and agnostics have a impoverished world view, unfufilled lives, our children will see through are inadequete world view, and some of you are so biased, or easily distracted by my fancy cartoon pictures, that you don't even realize it IS offensive. But lo and behold, I poke fun at their religion and their God, I'm a bully. Is their a name for the sickness of throwing the first punch and then claiming to be an assault vicitm?
I went back to page one and read her comments and read yours. She didnt call anyone out personally,she stated her opinion of what she thinks it means when atheist take their children to church.Thats her opinion on atheists shes intitled to it. She wasnt poking fun at your beliefs or lack of belifes she was stating her opinion in a thread.I am an athiest and was not offended by what she said at all. I read the whole thread and it seems to me that in reaction to what you found offensive you made it personal. I dont think you were a bully. I do think you acted a little childish. I dont think you were purrposly offensive in your first comment just as she wasnt in hers.0 -
Well I DO care if someone tells me (or any other person who doesn't follow someone else's version of whatever religion) that they are going to Hell. I find that to be rude, condescending, antagonistic, snotty, and bullying. Once a person resorts to those tactics, they've shown their true colors as someone who really isn't very Christian.There is a difference between offending someone by simply stating your beliefs and ridiculing the other person's belief or non belief. You telling me that you have no compelling evidence to convince you there is a God doesn't offend me. When you start calling God or Jesus horrible names and ridiculing Christianity, you've lost credibility in your debate.But why would it matter if a non-Christian ridiculed Christianity? You don't believe they are right anyhow. See? This is exactly like the "Why do you care if I say you are going to hell if you don't believe in hell anyhow?" argument only thrown back at you. It's rude, condescending, and insulting.
There is a huge difference. I DO care what people say about God, especially in a conversation I'm in. I'm not talking about the differences in our faith. I'm specifically speaking of the name calling, ridiculing, and offensive pictures. Once a person resorts to those tactics, they've lost a debate. And that goes for any debate, not just religious ones.0 -
Well I DO care if someone tells me (or any other person who doesn't follow someone else's version of whatever religion) that they are going to Hell. I find that to be rude, condescending, antagonistic, snotty, and bullying. Once a person resorts to those tactics, they've shown their true colors as someone who really isn't very Christian.
I would agree with the above statement. Not sure who you're addressing this to, though, because I have never told anyone they're going to hell.0 -
Hey, all I ask for all the defenders of the Pattimeister is to take a deep breath and go back to page one of this thread. Read my first comment, then read hers. If you can honestly say I was the one who was purposely offensive, then you have no objectivity. I will not relent that everything she says, although candy coated, is just as malicious, demeaning, and offensive to atheists as anything I have said since to push her buttons. But that is part of the problem, isn't it. The believer can say without hesitation that we atheists and agnostics have a impoverished world view, unfufilled lives, our children will see through are inadequete world view, and some of you are so biased, or easily distracted by my fancy cartoon pictures, that you don't even realize it IS offensive. But lo and behold, I poke fun at their religion and their God, I'm a bully. Is their a name for the sickness of throwing the first punch and then claiming to be an assault vicitm?
I went back to page one and read her comments and read yours. She didnt call anyone out personally,she stated her opinion of what she thinks it means when atheist take their children to church.Thats her opinion on atheists shes intitled to it. She wasnt poking fun at your beliefs or lack of belifes she was stating her opinion in a thread.I am an athiest and was not offended by what she said at all. I read the whole thread and it seems to me that in reaction to what you found offensive you made it personal. I dont think you were a bully. I do think you acted a little childish. I dont think you were purrposly offensive in your first comment just as she wasnt in hers.
What's the difference if she called me out personally or just insulted all non-believers? You don't find it insulting, fine, I did. And where did I call Patti out by name when I was acting "childish"? Did the funny cartoons I put up have her name on it. I wasn't insulting her personally, just everyone who believes in fairytales, so that makes it ok.0 -
Maybe you've also said that, but I was referring to that comment being made by an atheist.Who? Where?But she isn't saying you don't have morals. She's talking about some moral "foundation". And it's a foundation you and I don't believe in at all. So why get mad about that? We believe it's innate within us, she believes it comes from the sky wizard. Tomato fricken tomahto.
If you want to insist you have morals prove it and act like it. Stop yelling at someone over the internet for believing something different than you. We don't care for it one bit when they do it to us. I won't let this great atheist movement that's going on become nothing more than a modern age Crusades. If we want to insist that our beliefs are better than than theirs we better damn well act like it.
You think it's wrong for her to believe you'll go to hell for our beliefs. But you have no problem believing she's stupid/wicked for hers. That's basically the atheist version of condemning someone, as we have no hell to wish on them.
And really why are any of you surprised that she'd believe we'd go to hell? News flash gang, if there is a hell we're going. We're the first ones in the joint, no waiting in line, no cover charge. Hell was built specifically for us. Good thing it's 100% fictional. So hey, why worry?
This is the quote I was referring to. This was posted by an atheist.0 -
General statements and observations from a person raised in a very devout faith community. None of this is directed at any particular person. My views alone - cut me to ribbons if you will:
Arguing with a person of faith is like arguing with a fish about the nature of water.
Water is the fish's world, he lives in it, and he's probably not even aware that it's there. The water is the fish's home and provides great comfort and all that he needs. He might look at you pityingly, so sorry for you that you do not enjoy the wondrous life of being submerged in H2O at all times.
Religious faith informs their worldview. They know that g-d says "Thou shalt not kill", and they know they don't want to kill and would never kill. Many will make a small leap and reason that they do not wish to kill because g-d told them not to. From there it's just a short jump to "Atheists do not listen to g-d's commandment not to kill - therefore Atheists are all murderers (or would really like to be)". See that cartoon of the baby sandwich for a reference.
"I take great comfort in knowing that I'm saved from eternal damnation by acceptance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ - therefore people without that salvation do not have that comfort - therefore the Atheist worldview is impoverished an unfilfilling". Huh? What? To need salvation, one must feel that they are in danger. Atheists don't.
The faithful can be insulting without meaning to be. Utterly unaware that others don't share their frame of reference. Once you believe in the literal truth of Goblins and Fairies (Ooh, may bad,,, Demons and Angels) your world view is far enough from the rationalist that it's easy to lose track of what might or might not be offensive or insulting. (As I just did. Point taken?).
Onward,,,
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Did anyone in this thread say they believed Christians were being oppressed?0
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