Atheists Go to church for their kids
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Those are not agnostics, they are atheists that are too nice to tell their religious friends that they believe that they are wrong. I can appreciate the sensibility, but I am not one of those people. I truly don't know the nature of the divine and won't lie and say I do.<<snip>>
But I just know too many agnostics who have their view because they think it's nice to not judge anyone else's beliefs. They like to pretend that all options are possible. Well they aren't. Only one is the actual truth. I've made my choice.
I don't believe 100% of the Christian bible & Jewish Torah's interpretation of the nature and reality of divinity. I do not hold those books (or any scripture) to be authoritative. I view them as works, ancient cultural documents describing those people's understanding of "G-d". Some parts I hold to be valid, and some make little sense to me. You don't necessarily have to eat the whole sandwich y'know.And to walk down the semantic path..it's not possible. Casper I'm sure you'd admit you don't believe in the existence of the God of the Christian bible, if that's too much I dare say you don't at all respect the belief of Scientologists and Lord Xenu with the intergalactic DC-10's. So you don't believe the afterlife and the reality of the universe can be "anything". If you honestly did you couldn't function. You'd have to worship all gods simultaneously which isn't possible because they all claim exclusivity on the truth of reality as we know it.
But, and I mean this, I would honestly love to hear from you just what agnosticism means to you.0 -
I'm an agnostic-ish Pagan and will be taking any future hypothical offspring of mine to a universalist unitarian church, just to give them options. I think it's wonderful to let children decide for themselves, but I also understand that if you have really strong beliefs that you should teach those beliefs to your kids.
I don't have strong beliefs, so I will be giving my kids options.0 -
Good people don't disown their children for making choices they don't agree with.0
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From personal experience, we are to be accepting of others. And so I wonder why you would not support them. Unless you mean more so, you would not encourage it , but would not condemn them for becoming atheist?
I cannot support my children doing something I believe is wrong, especially rejecting God, and they all know this. I would never disown my child and I would never keep forcing my beliefs on one of them after they've become adults and make their own choices. Like I said, my children are always welcome in my home. If they become an atheist, we will just not discuss religion, and I will keep them in prayer.
That's my mom as well. She means it too. Sort of. She never bugs either of my sisters about religion. They don't attend church and she's OK with that. She's accepted that they made their choice and as adults it's their right. I'm a different story. I have kids. My sisters don't. So while she is perfectly fine with us not going to church or being religious when it comes to the grandkids it's a whole different story. She's still a bit miffed that I never had them baptised (they are 11 and 14 now) to the point that a few years ago she tried to demand that I give her back my old baptismal gown. She wore it, my uncle wore it, and I wore it. She gave it to me when I was expecting kid 1. I didn't give it back. My sisters aren't going to have kids and my boys are going to be her only grandkids so what would she want it back for besides to try to take it away from me? I told her I was going to keep it and if someday the boys had kids and they had them baptised or their kids had kids who were baptised I'd pass it down but there's no point in giving it back just so it can go back to my family line again someday anyhow.0 -
Anyway, I'm still all for education in either sense. And as for the whole "god doesn't believe in moderators" now THAT'S worrisome. Where does this piece of information come from? IF you don't believe in religion, why should you believe ever bit of wording. If God condemns me for being wish washy on religion, but allows a murderer into heaven for believing and confessing his sins. Well, its probably not a place I would want to be anyway.
OH MAN! Do not say that I said "God doesn't believe in moderators"! You trying to get me banned?
I get that information from biblical teaching. Take your choice, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. And most of their little branches.
I agree with you. But we'll both be sharing a bench in hell if we're wrong. If you do not worship whichever God it is I mentioned above, you burn. And that's just the first rule. There are a bunch of others they'd like you to follow as well. From how much of your paycheck you're allowed to keep to what to do with the tip of your son's penis. Follow their rules, commandments, fatwas, etc. or suffer the wrath of God.
Not my rule. And I think the entities credited with them are entirely made up and fictitious. But I don't pretend that God will forgive me just because I'm a nice person. I've read his book, he really doesn't care about that. He wants praise on tap. He'll even take it from a pedophile or a murderer (to use your example).0 -
And lets keep it real, you are on a debate board lol Most people don't find their way to an internet debate board unless they like to debate! No judgment, I am here too
I'm in the debate group. I've never denied the fact that I like to debate. :huh:
I am suggesting that because you like to debate, I would think it would be hard for you to stay fully silenced on a subject, in real life, that you feel strongly about.0 -
And lets keep it real, you are on a debate board lol Most people don't find their way to an internet debate board unless they like to debate! No judgment, I am here too
I'm in the debate group. I've never denied the fact that I like to debate. :huh:
I am suggesting that because you like to debate, I would think it would be hard for you to stay fully silenced on a subject, in real life, that you feel strongly about.
Not necessarily. I feel strongly about a lot of things that I could most definitely have the chance to debate in my life, but sometimes it's easier to just avoid the argument and keep the peace than to argue about it.0 -
My children go to church with thier Father and his girlfriend. I have taken my children to buddhist Temples of various types and anserwed my duaghters questions to the best of my ability about various religions that being said I am agnostic and dont believe in religion.I believe in evolution and the big bang . When my daughter asks me what Mommy believe I tell her that people have been trying to understand the universe and everything it in for a very long time . I also told her that its ok with mommy that she goes to church and she can always decide what she wants to believe in. My parents exposed me to multiple religons as a child and I honestly believe that it makes you more tolerant of other peoples beliefs.0
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From personal experience, we are to be accepting of others. And so I wonder why you would not support them. Unless you mean more so, you would not encourage it , but would not condemn them for becoming atheist?
I cannot support my children doing something I believe is wrong, especially rejecting God, and they all know this. I would never disown my child and I would never keep forcing my beliefs on one of them after they've become adults and make their own choices. Like I said, my children are always welcome in my home. If they become an atheist, we will just not discuss religion, and I will keep them in prayer.
ahhh, you could be the mother of my best friend. Her mother is very religious, she's been raised in the same sense (and genuinely one of the nicest girls I know), however she is atheist and hides it from her mother for fear or "rejection". She knows it would break her mothers heart to be openly atheist and that her mother would always be subtly hinting for her to change her beliefs. So instead, she hides it from her mother and merely attends services blindly to please her mother.
Anyway, I'm still all for education in either sense. And as for the whole "god doesn't believe in moderators" now THAT'S worrisome. Where does this piece of information come from? IF you don't believe in religion, why should you believe ever bit of wording. If God condemns me for being wish washy on religion, but allows a murderer into heaven for believing and confessing his sins. Well, its probably not a place I would want to be anyway.
How sad that this mother and daughter will never truly understand each other nor really know each other.0 -
I am an atheist, but I believe in kindness and wisdom. If there is good advice on how to live one's life, I don't need to agree with every other thing that source has ever said to take that information and apply it to the way I live.
I don't have children, but if I did, they would be free to explore any faith they wanted. I think being curious about the world is a lovely quality for anyone to have, and it should be encouraged. Would I take them to church? Probably not, but that's because I have trouble sitting through an entire sermon without either a) falling asleep or b) cracking up when some of those choir sopranos get going. My pretend children and I would research the religions together and if after that, my pretend children wanted to learn more, I would help them explore.0 -
I am suggesting that because you like to debate, I would think it would be hard for you to stay fully silenced on a subject, in real life, that you feel strongly about.
If my children want to debate religion when they are adults, then we'll go at it!
You can't really hold a debate when you're the only one interested in debating. Then it would just be a lecture, and they'll have received plenty of that by the time they leave for college. 0 -
I have trouble sitting through an entire sermon without either a) falling asleep or b) cracking up when some of those choir sopranos get going.
I can't deny falling under a and b at some point in my life!0 -
This is a really good article that fully explains agnostic and atheism.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist
Am I agnostic or atheist?
Submitted by Sapient on August 17, 2006 - 3:38am.
The definitions from the Oxford English Dictionary.
Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition
Here is how the OED defines atheism:
atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.
disbelieve 1. trans. Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of.
deny
1.To contradict or gainsay (anything stated or alleged); to declare to be untrue or untenable, or not what it is stated to be.
2.Logic. The opposite of affirm; to assert the contradictory of (a proposition).
3.To refuse to admit the truth of (a doctrine or tenet); to reject as untrue or unfounded; the opposite of assert or maintain.
4.To refuse to recognize or acknowledge (a person or thing) as having a certain character or certain claims; to disown, disavow, repudiate, renounce.
Note that the OED definition covers the whole spectrum of atheist belief, from weak atheism (those who do not believe in or credit the existence of one or more gods) to strong atheism (those who assert the contrary position, that a god does not exist).
Here is the OED's definition of 'agnostic':
agnostic A. sb. One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing.
Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary Unabridged
Here is Webster's definition of atheism:
atheism n 1 a: disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity b: the doctrine that there is neither god nor any other deity--compare AGNOSTICISM 2: godlessness esp. in conduct
disbelief n: the act of disbelieving : mental refusal to accept (as a statement or proposition) as true
disbelieve vb vt : to hold not to be true or real : reject or withold belief in vi : to withold or reject belief
Note that again, both strong (1b) and weak (1a) atheism are included in the definition.
A good deal of people consider themselves to be 'agnostics'. By this they mean to identify themselves as doubters on the question of a 'god's' existence. They usually hold to this position of doubt because reason compels them to doubt the existence of any 'god', yet they resist calling themselves atheists because they also want to hold to their disbelief tentatively. Their expressed reason for this is clear: while their reason leads them to doubt the claims of theism, reason also demands that they keep an open mind on the question of 'god'. If you are one such person then it might interest you to know that your doubt actually makes you an atheist, not an agnostic. Why is this so? Because the word 'theism' simply implies a belief in a god. Therefore, if you find yourself identifying yourself primarily as a doubter of the existence of a 'god', then you are an a-theist... someone who does not hold to a belief in a 'god', someone who does not accept the claims of theists. That's all the term means - a position of non acceptance, a position of non belief.
It is the fallback position, the position one holds to when a claim is unsupported or unproven. Yet, you might feel that the word 'atheist' still implies more than what you actually hold to. A common response to hearing that one is an 'atheist' is to say: "But I don't disbelieve, I just don't believe!" But take a look at those words carefully: if you literally "don't disbelieve" - then, by double negation, you'd believe! Not disbelieving is believing. But you are not identifying yourself as a theist with doubts, right? You're identifying yourself as a doubter... period. That is atheism.
But you still seek some sort of middle ground, right? Something between theism and rejection of theism. Well relax, because the atheism IS your middle ground. "A-theism"' implies everything that a rational doubter means when he declares himself an 'agnostic', for while it's a common misperception that atheism implies a denial or rejection or active disbelief in the very possibility of a god, this is not so. In fact, we require a special term for those those who hold to such beliefs: "Strong Atheism". The rest of us doubters simply don't hold the belief... we're all atheists, whether we are doubters or outright rejectors of theism. So the missing 'middle ground' that you are looking for, rational tentativeness, is already included within the term 'atheism'.
So what does the word "agnostic" actually mean and how ought we use it? Notice the 'a' in front. 'Agnosticism' is a position counter to gnosticism. And what is gnosticism? It's the belief that a human being can possess knowledge about a god. It's an epistemological term - about the possibility of knowledge in regard to 'god' claims - and not a statement about matters of belief. 'Agnostics' hold to the epistemological position that human beings can't actually know anything about something beyond nature, something theists call 'supernatural'. So they believe that there's no way for a human to know anything about a 'god'. But there are many theists who agree!
Theists can be be agnostics! In fact, many theists say that they hold to their god belief on faith because they agree that we humans can't know things about the supernatural, or 'god'. Some very famous theologians have agreed that man is limited and that this means that man cannot have 'god knowledge". The list of theologians would include people like Martin Luther or Soren Kierkegaard. So when one says that they are an 'agnostic' and they mean a 'doubter', they are really saying that they are agnostic atheists. So if you find that this describes your own 'agnosticism', welcome to atheism!0 -
I know that is long, but it is worth a read...0
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If anyone needs me I'll be in the corner putting the moves on Mika.
:flowerforyou:
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Here is the concept I have difficulty with.
Why would a diety give us the power to think and gain knowledge. Allow it to be combined with a massive planet where your belief structure will be decided on geography as well as racial, ethnic. etc background. Combine THAT with multiple books and scriptures which disagree on many key points. Allow those books to be altered over time by political influence and language barriers/translation interpretation errors....
And then say - but if you dont 'pick' the right path you are out of luck. Burn in hell!0 -
Here is the concept I have difficulty with.
Why would a diety give us the power to think and gain knowledge. Allow it to be combined with a massive planet where your belief structure will be decided on geography as well as racial, ethnic. etc background. Combine THAT with multiple books and scriptures which disagree on many key points. Allow those books to be altered over time by political influence and language barriers/translation interpretation errors....
And then say - but if you dont 'pick' the right path you are out of luck. Burn in hell!
:flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:0 -
If anyone needs me I'll be in the corner putting the moves on Mika.
:flowerforyou:
Funny! So glad someone read it!! lol0 -
If anyone needs me I'll be in the corner putting the moves on Mika.
:flowerforyou:
Funny! So glad someone read it!! lol
I read it too, it does provide some interesting points0 -
Well I'll be darned. I guess we will discuss semantics after all.
To me - "Atheist" has always meant what this writer calls "Strong Atheist". Someone who is prepared to make a categorical statement that "There is no God". Well,,, that's not me. However, by the definitions here I suppose I'm an agnostic atheist or soft atheist - but that doesn't feel right either.
Interesting stuff,,0 -
Well I'll be darned. I guess we will discuss semantics after all.
To me - "Atheist" has always meant what this writer calls "Strong Atheist". Someone who is prepared to make a categorical statement that "There is no God". Well,,, that's not me. However, by the definitions here I suppose I'm an agnostic atheist or soft atheist - but that doesn't feel right either.
Interesting stuff,,
Same.0 -
Here is the concept I have difficulty with.
Why would a diety give us the power to think and gain knowledge. Allow it to be combined with a massive planet where your belief structure will be decided on geography as well as racial, ethnic. etc background. Combine THAT with multiple books and scriptures which disagree on many key points. Allow those books to be altered over time by political influence and language barriers/translation interpretation errors....
And then say - but if you dont 'pick' the right path you are out of luck. Burn in hell!
If I may..
When I've seen believers defend this they usually point to "free will". That it's meaningless to God if you follow him because he forced you too. It's a belief you have to come to of your own choice.
I don't care for the argument. Mostly because "free will" isn't really valid. Yes right now you have the option of doing any number of things. But at the end of your life you'll only ever have followed one set of choices. Not many. God, being all knowing and having knowledge of the future, knows who will come to him and who won't. So there's not really even any point in the little game he's set up.
Also I see nothing wrong about proving your existence to a group of beings you created if you really, REALLY want them to believe you exist. I'd think it's rather important. And if God plans to rest on his laurels and thinks sending down a human sacrifice in an illiterate part of the world 2,000 years ago should be all the proof we need...well I certainly can't follow that.0 -
Here is the concept I have difficulty with.
Why would a diety give us the power to think and gain knowledge. Allow it to be combined with a massive planet where your belief structure will be decided on geography as well as racial, ethnic. etc background. Combine THAT with multiple books and scriptures which disagree on many key points. Allow those books to be altered over time by political influence and language barriers/translation interpretation errors....
And then say - but if you dont 'pick' the right path you are out of luck. Burn in hell!
To me it is such a sad world view. I understand why some people would believe in god. I would think it would be truly heart breaking to believe that at least 2/3 of the world is going to burn in hell mostly because they were born in the wrong location.0 -
Well I'll be darned. I guess we will discuss semantics after all.
To me - "Atheist" has always meant what this writer calls "Strong Atheist". Someone who is prepared to make a categorical statement that "There is no God". Well,,, that's not me. However, by the definitions here I suppose I'm an agnostic atheist or soft atheist - but that doesn't feel right either.
Interesting stuff,,
Yes once terms are defined it sort of changes things. Casper you claimed (and again I apologize if I'm misinterpreting what you've said) that you believe in "something". Some sort of divine influence on the universe. You say no religion has got it right, but you believe in a.. Higher Power, let's say.
Well that doesn't really fit with either form of atheism. Maybe you're a Deist? It's hard to say with people who keep an undefined sense of spirituality, because it's undefined. You can't label someone who won't pick a side. Which probably makes them(you) the smartest of any of us.
And please everyone know, Strong Atheism is SO RARE! Most atheists are logical and any logical person is forced to admit they can't be 100% sure if god exists or not. Even I'M not a strong atheist, though I'm pretty close.
I think I prefer for myself the label Anti-Theist. No I do not know for certain if there is a god or what happens after death. But I'm real willing to bet that all major world religions are false. Because if I don't know, there's certainly no way a bunch of ancient goat herders knew the true reality of the universe.0 -
When I was 7 I asked my pastor if aboriginal peoples who never heard "The Gospel" really go to hell. He said "Of course they do - that's why missionary work is so important". Wow...0
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Here is the concept I have difficulty with.
Why would a diety give us the power to think and gain knowledge. Allow it to be combined with a massive planet where your belief structure will be decided on geography as well as racial, ethnic. etc background. Combine THAT with multiple books and scriptures which disagree on many key points. Allow those books to be altered over time by political influence and language barriers/translation interpretation errors....
And then say - but if you dont 'pick' the right path you are out of luck. Burn in hell!
:flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:
I have questions too, about Christianity in particular, like why would a God with rules for abstinence, against adultry and coveting knock up another man's betrothed with a child? And if that son was God, all powerful, able to heal and perform miracles, he could have stopped the Romans from crucifying him at anytime.
So letting himself die was like me standing on train tracks and not moving....suicide! They said that he was sacrificing himself for us. Well, wait, he only stayed dead for three days. I have had drinking binges that have lasted longer than that. And then he goes up to heaven?
Where was the sacrifice? It would have been a sacrifce if he stayed dead or went to hell. And why did he sacrifice himelf for us? How does this make sense. We were cursed because someone ate some fruit for all times, but he'll die to right that wrong? How does that work? Could he have paid my cable bill if he just stubbed his toe? And what are the option of not loving him or accepting his sacrifice? Eternal torture? Isn't telling someone to love them or they well endure eternal pain sort of like date rape?0 -
Well one thing I DO remember from theology is that the Jesus story has been repeated many times before.Here is the concept I have difficulty with.
Why would a diety give us the power to think and gain knowledge. Allow it to be combined with a massive planet where your belief structure will be decided on geography as well as racial, ethnic. etc background. Combine THAT with multiple books and scriptures which disagree on many key points. Allow those books to be altered over time by political influence and language barriers/translation interpretation errors....
And then say - but if you dont 'pick' the right path you are out of luck. Burn in hell!
:flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:
I have questions too, about Christianity in particular, like why would a God with rules for abstinence, against adultry and coveting knock up another man's betrothed with a child? And if that son was God, all powerful, able to heal and perform miracles, he could have stopped the Romans from crucifying him at anytime.
So letting himself die was like me standing on train tracks and not moving....suicide! They said that he was sacrificing himself for us. Well, wait, he only stayed dead for three days. I have had drinking binges that have lasted longer than that. And then he goes up to heaven?
Where was the sacrifice? It would have been a sacrifce if he stayed dead or went to hell. And why did he sacrifice himelf for us? How does this make sense. We were cursed because someone ate some fruit for all times, but he'll die to right that wrong? How does that work? Could he have paid my cable bill if he just stubbed his toe? And what are the option of not loving him or accepting his sacrifice? Eternal torture? Isn't telling someone to love them or they well endure eternal pain sort of like date rape?
There are several beings that predate Jesus whose stories include immaculate conception. They are the direct children of the god of that religion. They were sacrificed and rose again. Krishna was even visited by wisemen that followed a star.0 -
Well one thing I DO remember from theology is that the Jesus story has been repeated many times before.
There are several beings that predate Jesus whose stories include immaculate conception. They are the direct children of the god of that religion. They were sacrificed and rose again. Krishna was even visited by wisemen that followed a star.
A virgin birth is certainly nothing new, religious claims aside. Attila the Hun said he was born of a virgin. It's a common claim throughout history. What no one can explain is why this makes the person in question divine, noble, powerful, etc. Even IF I believed Jesus Christ was born of a virgin that still does not prove anything to me regarding him being divine.
Parthenogenesis not entirely uncommon you know? It happens all the time in the animal kingdom. But nobody claims a hammerhead shark has just given birth to the new messiah. They usually just get the heck out of the water.0 -
Here is the concept I have difficulty with.
Why would a diety give us the power to think and gain knowledge. Allow it to be combined with a massive planet where your belief structure will be decided on geography as well as racial, ethnic. etc background. Combine THAT with multiple books and scriptures which disagree on many key points. Allow those books to be altered over time by political influence and language barriers/translation interpretation errors....
And then say - but if you dont 'pick' the right path you are out of luck. Burn in hell!
:flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:
I have questions too, about Christianity in particular, like why would a God with rules for abstinence, against adultry and coveting knock up another man's betrothed with a child? And if that son was God, all powerful, able to heal and perform miracles, he could have stopped the Romans from crucifying him at anytime.
So letting himself die was like me standing on train tracks and not moving....suicide! They said that he was sacrificing himself for us. Well, wait, he only stayed dead for three days. I have had drinking binges that have lasted longer than that. And then he goes up to heaven?
Where was the sacrifice? It would have been a sacrifce if he stayed dead or went to hell. And why did he sacrifice himelf for us? How does this make sense. We were cursed because someone ate some fruit for all times, but he'll die to right that wrong? How does that work? Could he have paid my cable bill if he just stubbed his toe? And what are the option of not loving him or accepting his sacrifice? Eternal torture? Isn't telling someone to love them or they well endure eternal pain sort of like date rape?
They didn't just eat fruit, they ate fruit from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. How would Adam and Eve really know what Good and Evil were if they didn't have any knowledge of it to begin with. *scratches head*0 -
You and I have very similar points of view. Meetings are at 11 on sunday, we drink a lot of coffee and discuss this stuff in great detail. It's very very good coffee.Yes once terms are defined it sort of changes things. Casper you claimed (and again I apologize if I'm misinterpreting what you've said) that you believe in "something". Some sort of divine influence on the universe. You say no religion has got it right, but you believe in a.. Higher Power, let's say.
Well that doesn't really fit with either form of atheism. Maybe you're a Deist? It's hard to say with people who keep an undefined sense of spirituality, because it's undefined. You can't label someone who won't pick a side. Which probably makes them(you) the smartest of any of us.
And please everyone know, Strong Atheism is SO RARE! Most atheists are logical and any logical person is forced to admit they can't be 100% sure if god exists or not. Even I'M not a strong atheist, though I'm pretty close.
I think I prefer for myself the label Anti-Theist. No I do not know for certain if there is a god or what happens after death. But I'm real willing to bet that all major world religions are false. Because if I don't know, there's certainly no way a bunch of ancient goat herders knew the true reality of the universe.
I've explored Deism, it's one of the lights shining in through one of my windows.0
This discussion has been closed.