Atheists Go to church for their kids
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Because "moderates" expect everyone to be ok with whatever choice anyone else makes. Because of tolerance and understanding and yada yada.
It's why I often get along better with Patti than agnostics or people who believe "everyone has their own personal truth and we shouldn't judge." Patti and I have both chosen a side. They may be opposite sides but at least we can relate to one another on that level.
p.s. To any moderates out there.. God is not a moderate. And if he's real he won't be impressed by your little "fingers crossed, hand behind the back" game.
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Wow,,, that's interesting Brett. I've never met anybody seriously upset with we mealymouthed agnostics before. I promise you amigo, you have no idea of what you speak.
I think I'm a pan-theist, in that I respond to the power and deity of the universe though I don't claim to understand a creator. I percieve all existence as 'G-d" and myself as a tiny part of it.
I feel the awesome power of the world I live in and the humanity of my brothers and sisters. I have been moved to tears and I knelt and prayed in an 800 year old church in Ireland. I felt the presence of the ancients on ground that was holy to the celts 3000 years before christ - and my wife heard them singing as plain as day. I felt something astounding at the pyramids. I also was touched each of the 3 times I've witnessed childbirth. I'm a very spiritual person and I strongly believe that there's more going on than just biology & chemistry & software.
I'm not an atheist, but I do not claim to know and understand the nature of the creator - but if he-she-it IS an intelligent being, I believe there are more important things to worry about than who I date or what I eat on friday. As I said, the power of Jesus' morals and ethics (who I do acknowledge as a real historical figure) is obvious - it's the surrounding theology that I could never believe in. To me the theology I was taught was just another in a long line of faith traditions - pagan - animist, etc.etc. I saw no particular reason to believe that my family's teachings Re: G-d were more or less valid than the teachings about Zeus, or Tarawa or Ra.
I practice in a Unitarian Universalist church and I'm finding my way. My agnosticism is not some "hands behind the back game",,, it's an expression of my honest truth. I don't know, and I won't pretend that I do.0 -
Do you tell them it's not logical and they have no foundation for morality and they are going to hell because they are stubborn and refuse to accept the truth? Or do you tell them that some people believe that science has negated so much of the doctrine of various religions that, coupled with the the impossibility of a God being All knowing, all seeing, and all loving has given them evidence that there is no such thing as God?Would you agree that they should consider non-belief as well?
Of course. We talk to our children and our students about atheism all the time.
I was born and raised Catholic. We never went to any other church besides Catholic. Adrian's first post in this thread could have been written by my dad. I was forced to go to Sunday School. I didn't have the option. I made all the sacraments including Confirmation even though I had serious doubts. I'd ask questions or question various things and basically be told "That's just the way it is." without being given a real answer. Confirmation was a mechanical process with no real knowledge or even acceptance being imparted. We studied other religions. Technically. 1 hour, once a week per religion. How much would someone really know about Christianity if they studied it for 1 hour total and were taught by a Muslim Imam? Couple that with the fact that they didn't want to be there in the first place and you have an idea as to how much I was taught about other religions.
I've taken my kids to mass. They've been to a few Catholic services and once I accidentally took them to a fundie Christian service. My mom had been bugging me that they needed to learn about religion. Apparently my answering any question they ever had and telling them about various religions wasn't enough despite the fact that none of that was done for me. She and I made a deal. I'd take them to a "fun, upbeat, modern" church a friend of hers went to and then she'd drop the subject. I told her if I liked it we'd go sometimes but if I didn't I didn't want to be bugged about it anymore ever again. So we went. Mom came too. My mom thought it was nice. I couldn't get out of there fast enough. People were waving their hands in the air, swaying, eye's closed, heads back, etc. I expected someone to start speaking in tongues at any minute.
My kids are 11 and 14. The 11yo doesn't really have an opinion one way or another. The 14yo has officially stated that he's agnostic. He believes like I do - there is a God. There is a heaven and a hell. You get there based on your deeds, not who or what you pray to. Every religion has some things right ansd a lot of things wrong. Religious books were written by men. They are stories that may or may not have once been based on some actual event.0 -
And @macpatti I also find it intriguing that you would not support your children's desire to be atheist.
How is this intriguing?
Perhaps this goes against what I know of religious people, which is why it intrigues me. Of course, I base my view of religious people based on my grandmother and mother (who encouraged my belief in a higher power). Both were very caring, and accepting of my personal choices. They were never condemning when I told them I didn't want to attend church regularly anymore. They agreed with my choice, and said I was free to join them if I ever changed my mind. I still do, because I get an overall "good" feeling from attending church. Though last time I went, I laughed out loud at one of the stories from the bible... the priest wasn't too pleased.
From personal experience, we are to be accepting of others. And so I wonder why you would not support them. Unless you mean more so, you would not encourage it , but would not condemn them for becoming atheist?0 -
He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He know if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake.
Good kids are rewarded with presents. Bad kids are punished with coal. The comparison makes a lot of sense to me.
Do you know any kid who really got coal?
Do you know anyone who went to hell?
Oh My Dog, this is getting good.0 -
Do you know any kid who really got coal?Do you know anyone who went to hell?
No. That's my point.0 -
Well, that's what I love about modern day fundementalist christians. They won't come out and say atheists can't have morals, they just think we have no moral foundation. They won't say they want or think we will burn in hell (doctrine), they just don't think we'll go to heaven. But back to the original subject of atheists allowing their kids to go to church. It's basic psychology really. If you want a child to do something, forbidding it is the best way to see it happen. That's why I saw so many sheltered children go haywire in college. I wouldn't want my children growing up thinking that I purposely hid something from them.0
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Thanks for posting this. The article doesn't really surprise me, but I was a little disappointed that it positioned the issue as a conflict instead of something that was just interesting. I accept that conflict is sexier journalism, though.
I probably fall more into an agnostic than atheist definition, but I certainly don't feel religion is evil, and make sure that when my girls ask questions I respond honestly and without judgment. My kids are 10 and 7, already forming their own ideas. They have religious friends. When they ask questions that I can answer, I respond along the lines of "what some people believe..." and try not to editorialize through words, tone or inflection. I teach them to respect others' beliefs.
I think it's important for my kids to make their own educated choices. If either girl becomes devoutly religious, that's fine by me. It might result in some awkward conversations, but nothing we can't navigate. I don't think religion necessarily *harms* anyone. But I won't stand for sanctimonious judgment or proselytizing, either (and that goes for some of my atheist friends as well - you can be a fanatic at both ends of the spectrum).
Even if I don't believe the fundamental tenets, I can still see good in religion. I think there is a lot of bad, too (mostly bad things done in the name of religion/religious beliefs). But if a belief in a God fills you with hope, love, compassion, and strength - that seems like a good thing. I don't care if we disagree on the science.
So that's my approach with my kids. I will support them in whatever they want to believe. I don't really push my own beliefs on them at all - in fact, I tend to keep the discussions general and not about what I believe, to keep from influencing them too much. We do not currently attend church, so they are missing out on that experience. I will probably take them, though. In fact, I will probably take them at least once (whether they ask to go or not) just to expose them to other ideas.0 -
From personal experience, we are to be accepting of others. And so I wonder why you would not support them. Unless you mean more so, you would not encourage it , but would not condemn them for becoming atheist?
I cannot support my children doing something I believe is wrong, especially rejecting God, and they all know this. I would never disown my child and I would never keep forcing my beliefs on one of them after they've become adults and make their own choices. Like I said, my children are always welcome in my home. If they become an atheist, we will just not discuss religion, and I will keep them in prayer.0 -
I know many many atheists. They do not believe in an afterlife, they believe that this life is all they get. Therefore they do their best to make it count, and to try to create heaven here on earth. They are some of the most loving, giving and ethical people I know.0
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I know many many atheists. They do not believe in an afterlife, they believe that this life is all they get. Therefore they do their best to make it count, and to try to create heaven here on earth. They are some of the most loving, giving and ethical people I know.
I do, too, and I feel the same way about my atheist friends.0 -
I'm failing to see how having the stance of "Live and let live" in terms of what others believe is a bad thing. We all have our own opinions, and I'm not going to get upset if my children decide to believe something other than myself. As I am still searching for what I ultimately believe, it'd be a bit silly for me to say I wouldn't support my kids in whatever they feel is true for themselves.
I don't see that as crossing my fingers behind my back at all.0 -
I know many many atheists. They do not believe in an afterlife, they believe that this life is all they get. Therefore they do their best to make it count, and to try to create heaven here on earth. They are some of the most loving, giving and ethical people I know.
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I know many many atheists. They do not believe in an afterlife, they believe that this life is all they get. Therefore they do their best to make it count, and to try to create heaven here on earth. They are some of the most loving, giving and ethical people I know.
Needs mustard.0 -
Many think that an "Agnostic" is somebody who's really an atheist but won't come out and say "There is no G-d" for fear of angering god,,, just is case he is there after all. That's the basis of the "fingers crossed" thing. It's a canard commonly thrown out by people who don't understand agnosticism.I'm failing to see how having the stance of "Live and let live" in terms of what others believe is a bad thing. We all have our own opinions, and I'm not going to get upset if my children decide to believe something other than myself. As I am still searching for what I ultimately believe, it'd be a bit silly for me to say I wouldn't support my kids in whatever they feel is true for themselves.
I don't see that as crossing my fingers behind my back at all.0 -
Do you tell them it's not logical and they have no foundation for morality and they are going to hell because they are stubborn and refuse to accept the truth? Or do you tell them that some people believe that science has negated so much of the doctrine of various religions that, coupled with the the impossibility of a God being All knowing, all seeing, and all loving has given them evidence that there is no such thing as God?
My husband is a theologian and we work at a college preparatory, so these boys are intelligent. We teach them by discussing the points that atheists make. We refer to books and articles written by atheists. We do not teach them what WE think an atheist believes. We teach them what atheists claim they believe. It would be insulting to them if we did not do it properly, and only make them doubt anything we said anyway. We also teach them Catholocism (we're at a Catholic school), and other world religions. Our job is not to convert anyone of our students to Catholocism. Our job here is to form young boys into "men for others". They can only do this if they are taught to respect all people, regardless of religious belief, race, gender, sexual identitiy or socio-economic background. Christians believe that all people are made in the image and likeness of God. Even those who do not believe.
I hope that answered your question. I appreciate the question and you not assuming how/what I teach my children and students.0 -
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Wow,,, that's interesting Brett. I've never met anybody seriously upset with we mealymouthed agnostics before. I promise you amigo, you have no idea of what you speak.
I think I'm a pan-theist, in that I respond to the power and deity of the universe though I don't claim to understand a creator. I percieve all existence as 'G-d" and myself as a tiny part of it.
I feel the awesome power of the world I live in and the humanity of my brothers and sisters. I have been moved to tears and I knelt and prayed in an 800 year old church in Ireland. I felt the presence of the ancients on ground that was holy to the celts 3000 years before christ - and my wife heard them singing as plain as day. I felt something astounding at the pyramids. I also was touched each of the 3 times I've witnessed childbirth. I'm a very spiritual person and I strongly believe that there's more going on than just biology & chemistry & software.
I'm not an atheist, but I do not claim to know and understand the nature of the creator - but if he-she-it IS an intelligent being, I believe there are more important things to worry about than who I date or what I eat on friday. As I said, the power of Jesus' morals and ethics (who I do acknowledge as a real historical figure) is obvious - it's the surrounding theology that I could never believe in. To me the theology I was taught was just another in a long line of faith traditions - pagan - animist, etc.etc. I saw no particular reason to believe that my family's teachings Re: G-d were more or less valid than the teachings about Zeus, or Tarawa or Ra.
I practice in a Unitarian Universalist church and I'm finding my way. My agnosticism is not some "hands behind the back game",,, it's an expression of my honest truth. I don't know, and I won't pretend that I do.
Casper I get you. My gf is an agnostic and we argue about it all the time.
I agree with you completely on the falsity of religous belief and theocracy. But if there IS a God, he doesn't. We're all essentially taking bets here, Pascal's wager. The problem for believers of ANY stripe is that there are many different gods, and many different versions of the same God.
The God of the bible is very explicit. You must believe. You must praise and worship. If you do not you will suffer damnation. The Christian God, as depicted in the bible, doesn't want to hear about the wonder you felt looking at the pyramids. That's Earthly worship, pride in mankind even. Shoot I think he'd consider it a mortal sin if we want to get serious about it.
In the specific case of the God of Chrisitanity, he DOES care very much who you date and whether or not you eat meat on Friday. So you do him, or yourself, no favors with your "semi-belief". (sorry if that's offensive, it's not my intention)
So you choose not to believe in that God. Neither do I. But if you don't believe in him you aren't agnostic. And I hate what I've just done, because (if past experience teaches me anything) we'll spend the next few posts arguing terms and semantics. And I hate that.0 -
One light, many windows m'friend. I view all scriptures to be imperfect human interpretations of the divine.
Are you open to the idea that Judaism was the understanding of the invisible man in the sky in the middle east around 3000BC - but Animism was the understanding of the invisible man in the sky in north america in 2000BC. Islam might be the understanding of the invisible man in the sky in the middle east around 622AD - which it's adherents view as the modernization of the understanding of the invisible man in the sky in the middle east around the year 0?0 -
Agnostic simply means that we believe that it is impossible to truly know whether or not a deity exists. That's it. People like to twist it into something else saying that agnostics are just on the fence and don't want to choose sides, etc. That's not it. We just don't feel there is sufficient evidence to know either way.0
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One light, many windows m'friend. I view all scriptures to be imperfect human interpretations of the divine.
I wouldn't say you're agnostic, but just generally spiritual.0 -
Many think that an "Agnostic" is somebody who's really an atheist but won't come out and say "There is no G-d" for fear of angering god,,, just is case he is there after all. That's the basis of the "fingers crossed" thing. It's a canard commonly thrown out by people who don't understand agnosticism.I don't see that as crossing my fingers behind my back at all.
I will straight up confess to being guilty of this.
Agnosticim basically means "I don't know". Which is always the best answer when discussing the afterlife or the existence of a creator. It's a great position for that reason.
But I just know too many agnostics who have their view because they think it's nice to not judge anyone else's beliefs. They like to pretend that all options are possible. Well they aren't. Only one is the actual truth. I've made my choice.
And to walk down the semantic path..it's not possible. Casper I'm sure you'd admit you don't believe in the existence of the God of the Christian bible, if that's too much I dare say you don't at all respect the belief of Scientologists and Lord Xenu with the intergalactic DC-10's. So you don't believe the afterlife and the reality of the universe can be "anything". If you honestly did you couldn't function. You'd have to worship all gods simultaneously which isn't possible because they all claim exclusivity on the truth of reality as we know it.
But, and I mean this, I would honestly love to hear from you just what agnosticism means to you.0 -
My parents said the same thing to me about not supporting my desire to being an athiest. They did not support me, they would try to debate with me, and push and push until it led to the mother of all arguments (because at some point your adult children will support themselves and stick up for themselves) and we didn't talk for about 3 years. And they missed out on all the baby years of one of my children. We are close now, again, and they did think that if they played hardball with me, that I would cave. So IMO I would rethink that whole never supporting idea, because it could lead to things you were not expecting. JMO
Not supporting my child doing something I view is wrong and disowning them are two different things. Once my children are out of the house, they are free to explore whatever belief/non belief they want, and I don't have to support it. I don't have to bring up religion every time I see them, either. If this happened, we would probably just avoid the topic and I'd pray for them. I would never try to run my children off or have them feel they aren't loved.
No one said it was the same thing. When someone is in a position where they say that they will not support their adult child in something because they feel it is wrong it will eventually lead to things they were not expecting and did not desire.
One never knows, a parents good intentions could lead their kids disowning them, they might not say anything and move across town, or the country. When it comes to relationships its the little things. (good or bad) Or maybe you will just never have the opportunity to know your children as adults because they know you would never be okay with it. Support goes a long way. (BTW all those experiences happened to people I knew, it happens everyday and as the number of atheists rise so will these negative family experiences)
And lets keep it real, you are on a debate board lol Most people don't find their way to an internet debate board unless they like to debate! No judgment, I am here too
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Doug Stanhope is a comediean "Oh, you're agnostic. So there COULD be a Batman, you're just not sure."0
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From personal experience, we are to be accepting of others. And so I wonder why you would not support them. Unless you mean more so, you would not encourage it , but would not condemn them for becoming atheist?
I cannot support my children doing something I believe is wrong, especially rejecting God, and they all know this. I would never disown my child and I would never keep forcing my beliefs on one of them after they've become adults and make their own choices. Like I said, my children are always welcome in my home. If they become an atheist, we will just not discuss religion, and I will keep them in prayer.
ahhh, you could be the mother of my best friend. Her mother is very religious, she's been raised in the same sense (and genuinely one of the nicest girls I know), however she is atheist and hides it from her mother for fear or "rejection". She knows it would break her mothers heart to be openly atheist and that her mother would always be subtly hinting for her to change her beliefs. So instead, she hides it from her mother and merely attends services blindly to please her mother.
Anyway, I'm still all for education in either sense. And as for the whole "god doesn't believe in moderators" now THAT'S worrisome. Where does this piece of information come from? IF you don't believe in religion, why should you believe ever bit of wording. If God condemns me for being wish washy on religion, but allows a murderer into heaven for believing and confessing his sins. Well, its probably not a place I would want to be anyway.0 -
Edit to fix messed up quotes.
I guess to me, it's not so much as saying all options are possible, but that it's not up to me to make that decision for others.
I'm agnostic (and some days I lean more atheist than others) simply because I don't know for sure if there's a god or not. I don't say I'm 100% atheist because I don't completely discount the possibility of there being a god. There very well could be, but I just don't have enough evidence to say yes or no. That's just me. I think I could be relatively spiritual actually given the right circumstances, which is why sometimes I'd like to check out a UU church. Agnostics can enjoy fellowship too!
Also, I also believe in the paranormal. I've witnessed enough to not rule out the possibility of ghosts, spirits, etc. Do I think that connects with there being a God? Not necessarily, and I think it's silly for people to automatically jump to the conclusion that if someone believes in ghosts then that means they believe in god. Not so.
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Brett~ What's your take on the article (I sent it to my friend, Trey, too). Would you agree that atheists who support their children becoming believers might suggest they don't really believe it to be evil?
I talk to my children about atheism, but I would never support their desire to become one. Make sense? Thoughts?
Just because a person is an atheist does not mean that he or she views religion as evil. On the same note, just because a person is a Christian does not mean he or she believe atheists are evil. I am curious, when you say you "talk to" your children about atheism, what do say? Do simply tell them that atheists are wrong or do you allow your children to come to a conclusion on their own?
I believe everyone is entitled to form own opinions. I think it is great that an atheist would take his or her children to church or that a Christian would openly explain atheism to a child. In my opinion, open-mindedness and exploration are a beautiful thing.0 -
Interesting because this is exactly where I am right now. I am a scientist and an athiest. My mother is a devout catholic. I have asked her to step in a teach my son about her god and religion as she knows it.
I would simply feel like a hypocrite going to church. To me its just a pretty building that smells nice.
Honestly I think its a wonderful way to live in many ways. Believing that 'someone' is looking out for you. Prayer/meditation/focused energy. I see nothing wrong with it other than it doesn't force one to think. Answers are just handed to you. Some pretty ridiculous IMO. Sometimes I wish I could go back to when I believed in these things.
But now as an adult it simply does not make sense to me. But my son deserves to grow up and make his own choice. If there is a chance that he can use faith for comfort like my mother has then great. I see nothing wrong with that.0 -
And lets keep it real, you are on a debate board lol Most people don't find their way to an internet debate board unless they like to debate! No judgment, I am here too
I'm in the debate group. I've never denied the fact that I like to debate. :huh:0 -
I am curious, when you say you "talk to" your children about atheism, what do say? Do simply tell them that atheists are wrong or do you allow your children to come to a conclusion on their own?
I just answered this a few posts before this one.0
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