Obamacare
Replies
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Would like to add:
Democracy is far superior to socialism. Deal with it. Do I want to live in a country where there is no more competition and no matter how hard I work, my standard of living will always be the same as the guy who sits on his *kitten* all day?? HELL NO. That's why America is different, and yes, better. Sadly, we are heading down the socialist spiral and it's scary as f***.
I think you've confused Socialism with Communism and Democracy with Capitalism.
The health care system I have been suggesting through this WHOLE thread is not socialism, or communism. And it's even more capitalistic than the system we have now.
Point taken. But the ideals behind Obamacare are indeed NOT capitalistic and NOT democratic. Does that make more sense for you? People want to government to take care of them, but they do not realize at what price.0 -
Just giving people what they need doesn't solve the problem. That is why we have generations of people on welfare.
^^^ Agreed! Enabling is a huge problem in our country. We need programs that will, no kidding, help people to help themselves.
They have been passed and then defunded multiple times.0 -
Haha, I seriously lol'd at this.0 -
Would like to add:
Democracy is far superior to socialism. Deal with it. Do I want to live in a country where there is no more competition and no matter how hard I work, my standard of living will always be the same as the guy who sits on his *kitten* all day?? HELL NO. That's why America is different, and yes, better. Sadly, we are heading down the socialist spiral and it's scary as f***.
I think you've confused Socialism with Communism and Democracy with Capitalism.
The health care system I have been suggesting through this WHOLE thread is not socialism, or communism. And it's even more capitalistic than the system we have now.
Point taken. But the ideals behind Obamacare are indeed NOT capitalistic and NOT democratic. Does that make more sense for you? People want to government to take care of them, but they do not realize at what price.
I never once said that I was for Obamacare either.0 -
People want to government to take care of them, but they do not realize at what price.
If you're paying a price, are you not taking care of yourself?0 -
People want to government to take care of them, but they do not realize at what price.
If you're paying a price, are you not taking care of yourself?
The price is higher for the government to take care of people in the current system. America is paying more of their GDP for healthcare than the "socialized" nations are (once again, they're not really socialized, but that escapes many people.)0 -
Just giving people what they need doesn't solve the problem. That is why we have generations of people on welfare.
^^^ Agreed! Enabling is a huge problem in our country. We need programs that will, no kidding, help people to help themselves.
They have been passed and then defunded multiple times.
Of course, because it's easier to make people depend on you, while someone else (taxpayers) foot the bill, than to teach them to improve their situation.0 -
Just giving people what they need doesn't solve the problem. That is why we have generations of people on welfare.
^^^ Agreed! Enabling is a huge problem in our country. We need programs that will, no kidding, help people to help themselves.
They have been passed and then defunded multiple times.
Of course, because it's easier to make people depend on you, while someone else (taxpayers) foot the bill, than to teach them to improve their situation.
Or we could make education more affordable so more people can go to college and put a cap on outsourcing jobs to China so there are more jobs available in America. I mean, outsourcing to China doesn't create unfair competition with the companies who do stay in America and actually have to pay a living wage at all. But, this wouldn't create the same profit for the people at the top. The "job creators." Well, I guess they do create jobs... in China.0 -
Or we could make education more affordable so more people can go to college...
Ooooh, you mean like not allowing the student loan interest rate to double, while we are busy fighting over personhood clauses snuck into every last bill?0 -
Just giving people what they need doesn't solve the problem. That is why we have generations of people on welfare.
^^^ Agreed! Enabling is a huge problem in our country. We need programs that will, no kidding, help people to help themselves.
They have been passed and then defunded multiple times.
Of course, because it's easier to make people depend on you, while someone else (taxpayers) foot the bill, than to teach them to improve their situation.
Or we could make education more affordable so more people can go to college and put a cap on outsourcing jobs to China so there are more jobs available in America. I mean, outsourcing to China doesn't create unfair competition with the companies who do stay in America and actually have to pay a living wage at all. But, this wouldn't create the same profit for the people at the top. The "job creators." Well, I guess they do create jobs... in China.
So... How do you make college more affordable? Have the government mandate that too?? You realize college costs are so high because college loans are so easy to get and college loan lenders are protected in bankruptcy. Make college loans harder to get by removing the bankruptcy protection and you will see college costs drop as people chose less expensive schools.
You want the government to control companies by telling them where they can set up operations? You think unemployment is bad now. Wait until companies move their entire operation off shore to bypass more ridiculous regulations.
More government is what got us into this mess.0 -
Or we could make education more affordable so more people can go to college...
Ooooh, you mean like not allowing the student loan interest rate to double, while we are busy fighting over personhood clauses snuck into every last bill?
That would be a nice start. Also considering how much college tuition has gone up the past 50 years, but wages have not kept pace. Well, CEO wages have, because they're the only people who matter. Them and fetuses.0 -
Just giving people what they need doesn't solve the problem. That is why we have generations of people on welfare.
^^^ Agreed! Enabling is a huge problem in our country. We need programs that will, no kidding, help people to help themselves.
They have been passed and then defunded multiple times.
Of course, because it's easier to make people depend on you, while someone else (taxpayers) foot the bill, than to teach them to improve their situation.
Or we could make education more affordable so more people can go to college and put a cap on outsourcing jobs to China so there are more jobs available in America. I mean, outsourcing to China doesn't create unfair competition with the companies who do stay in America and actually have to pay a living wage at all. But, this wouldn't create the same profit for the people at the top. The "job creators." Well, I guess they do create jobs... in China.
So... How do you make college more affordable? Have the government mandate that too?? You realize college costs are so high because college loans are so easy to get and college loan lenders are protected in bankruptcy. Make college loans harder to get by removing the bankruptcy protection and you will see college costs drop as people chose less expensive schools.
You want the government to control companies by telling them where they can set up operations? You think unemployment is bad now. Wait until companies move their entire operation off shore to bypass more ridiculous regulations.
More government is what got us into this mess.
Or, you know, making colleges be more responsible with the money they do get.0 -
Ahhh....yes. Conservative republicans only care about the rich and the unborn. You got us.That would be a nice start. Also considering how much college tuition has gone up the past 50 years, but wages have not kept pace. Well, CEO wages have, because they're the only people who matter. Them and fetuses.
College tuition has gone up, but it's not that difficult AT ALL in the US to get financial aid and student loans.
Not all poor people die because they can't afford healthcare. There are clinics that will treat people with no healthcare, but some people don't think it's "fair" that they should have to wait in line for 8 hours to get free care.
And I was trying hard to keep my Catholicism out of this debate, but take issue with Catholic institutions being forced to violate Church teachings.0 -
College tuition has gone up, but it's not that difficult AT ALL in the US to get financial aid and student loans.
Nope, but it's near impossible to pay back.0 -
Just giving people what they need doesn't solve the problem. That is why we have generations of people on welfare.
^^^ Agreed! Enabling is a huge problem in our country. We need programs that will, no kidding, help people to help themselves.
They have been passed and then defunded multiple times.
Of course, because it's easier to make people depend on you, while someone else (taxpayers) foot the bill, than to teach them to improve their situation.
Or we could make education more affordable so more people can go to college and put a cap on outsourcing jobs to China so there are more jobs available in America. I mean, outsourcing to China doesn't create unfair competition with the companies who do stay in America and actually have to pay a living wage at all. But, this wouldn't create the same profit for the people at the top. The "job creators." Well, I guess they do create jobs... in China.
So... How do you make college more affordable? Have the government mandate that too?? You realize college costs are so high because college loans are so easy to get and college loan lenders are protected in bankruptcy. Make college loans harder to get by removing the bankruptcy protection and you will see college costs drop as people chose less expensive schools.
You want the government to control companies by telling them where they can set up operations? You think unemployment is bad now. Wait until companies move their entire operation off shore to bypass more ridiculous regulations.
More government is what got us into this mess.
Or, you know, making colleges be more responsible with the money they do get.
We finally agree. Everyone should be more responsible with the money they do get. This might open up health insurance to some people that currently do not have it
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Doesn't the constitutionality argument go something along the lines of " the Constitution gives the US government authority to regulate markets." ?...which it clearly does.0
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College tuition has gone up, but it's not that difficult AT ALL in the US to get financial aid and student loans.Nope, but it's near impossible to pay back.
We have not found that to be the case at all. We were on the "graduating plan" where your payments go up every few years. The assumption is that your salary will also increase. The problem is people don't make student loans a priority and start getting themselves into other debt, then want to blame their student loans for bringing them down.0 -
Just giving people what they need doesn't solve the problem. That is why we have generations of people on welfare.
^^^ Agreed! Enabling is a huge problem in our country. We need programs that will, no kidding, help people to help themselves.
They have been passed and then defunded multiple times.
Of course, because it's easier to make people depend on you, while someone else (taxpayers) foot the bill, than to teach them to improve their situation.
Or we could make education more affordable so more people can go to college and put a cap on outsourcing jobs to China so there are more jobs available in America. I mean, outsourcing to China doesn't create unfair competition with the companies who do stay in America and actually have to pay a living wage at all. But, this wouldn't create the same profit for the people at the top. The "job creators." Well, I guess they do create jobs... in China.
So... How do you make college more affordable? Have the government mandate that too?? You realize college costs are so high because college loans are so easy to get and college loan lenders are protected in bankruptcy. Make college loans harder to get by removing the bankruptcy protection and you will see college costs drop as people chose less expensive schools.
You want the government to control companies by telling them where they can set up operations? You think unemployment is bad now. Wait until companies move their entire operation off shore to bypass more ridiculous regulations.
More government is what got us into this mess.
Or, you know, making colleges be more responsible with the money they do get.
We finally agree. Everyone should be more responsible with the money they do get. This might open up health insurance to some people that currently do not have it.
I like that thinking...0 -
College tuition has gone up, but it's not that difficult AT ALL in the US to get financial aid and student loans.Nope, but it's near impossible to pay back.
We have not found that to be the case at all. We were on the "graduating plan" where your payments go up every few years. The assumption is that your salary will also increase. The problem is people don't make student loans a priority and start getting themselves into other debt, then want to blame their student loans for bringing them down.
Interest debt is about to double. Not creep up a touch, but DOUBLE. I know people who pay more in student loans than I do in a mortgage payment, and I live in an area with a high cost of living. People right out of school are saddled with debt that exceeds the cost of home ownership, and it is unsecured debt.
By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.0 -
Or, you know, making colleges be more responsible with the money they do get.
since the government is granted the right to control how responsibly colleges spend their money right? Where in the constitution did you find that part?0 -
Doesn't the constitutionality argument go something along the lines of " the Constitution gives the US government authority to regulate markets." ?...which it clearly does.
If the government can compel us to purchase health insurance, for the greater financial and health-related good of us all, then where does their power end?
It would be cheaper for all of our healthcare if nobody were obese. So tomorrow, the government is going to decide how many calories you can consume. What foods you can eat. How many hours of gym time you must rack up. Because if we were all thinner it would eliminate so many diseases. And if you fail to comply with these requirements, we are going to fine you. If you don't pay your fine, we can reach right into your bank account and get it. Okey dokey?
But that's not constitutional. And neither is the individual mandate, without which the entire law falls apart.0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.0 -
Exactly. When will it end with the government taking over our healthcare?It would be cheaper for all of our healthcare if nobody were obese. So tomorrow, the government is going to decide how many calories you can consume. What foods you can eat. How many hours of gym time you must rack up. Because if we were all thinner it would eliminate so many diseases. And if you fail to comply with these requirements, we are going to fine you. If you don't pay your fine, we can reach right into your bank account and get it.0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.
That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Here's an example:
My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.
That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Here's an example:
My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!
how upsetting. Becoming a doctor without having to pay for it up front has a trade-off, it seems.
First world problems, eh?
I got my college degree paid for up front but I couldn't afford to choose my favorite specialty. Pardon me while I don't feel that bad for this poor victim.0 -
My husband and I are in "lower paying fields" of teaching and we have no problem paying our student loans. My husband has several Master's Degrees to pay for as well.That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Your brother can defer his loans for the time he's still in school/doing his residency. You realize that; right?My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!0 -
Doesn't the constitutionality argument go something along the lines of " the Constitution gives the US government authority to regulate markets." ?...which it clearly does.
If the government can compel us to purchase health insurance, for the greater financial and health-related good of us all, then where does their power end?
It would be cheaper for all of our healthcare if nobody were obese. So tomorrow, the government is going to decide how many calories you can consume. What foods you can eat. How many hours of gym time you must rack up. Because if we were all thinner it would eliminate so many diseases. And if you fail to comply with these requirements, we are going to fine you. If you don't pay your fine, we can reach right into your bank account and get it. Okey dokey?
But that's not constitutional. And neither is the individual mandate, without which the entire law falls apart.
You're describing a flaw in our insurance and medical market system, not the government. You want privatized medicine, but not consider it a market like any other? When profit is a motivator, the good of the people (ostensibly the point of healthcare) must necessarily come second. That comes with the problems we're now seeing.0 -
Your brother can defer his loans for the time he's still in school/doing his residency. You realize that; right?
And the interest still is charged at that time, leaving an even larger debt.
The point appears to be missed, however. (Calling him a "poor victim" gets a big eyeroll from me!) Because of the astronomical costs involved, he cannot work with an underserved community, as his first choice would have been. This hits back on the original topic as well.0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.
That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Here's an example:
My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!
All I can say is you are out of touch with the cause that you are trying to champion whatever that may be. 0 -
All I can say is you are out of touch with the cause that you are trying to champion whatever that may be.
Noted. :huh:0
This discussion has been closed.