Obamacare
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Doesn't the constitutionality argument go something along the lines of " the Constitution gives the US government authority to regulate markets." ?...which it clearly does.
If the government can compel us to purchase health insurance, for the greater financial and health-related good of us all, then where does their power end?
It would be cheaper for all of our healthcare if nobody were obese. So tomorrow, the government is going to decide how many calories you can consume. What foods you can eat. How many hours of gym time you must rack up. Because if we were all thinner it would eliminate so many diseases. And if you fail to comply with these requirements, we are going to fine you. If you don't pay your fine, we can reach right into your bank account and get it. Okey dokey?
But that's not constitutional. And neither is the individual mandate, without which the entire law falls apart.0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.0 -
Exactly. When will it end with the government taking over our healthcare?It would be cheaper for all of our healthcare if nobody were obese. So tomorrow, the government is going to decide how many calories you can consume. What foods you can eat. How many hours of gym time you must rack up. Because if we were all thinner it would eliminate so many diseases. And if you fail to comply with these requirements, we are going to fine you. If you don't pay your fine, we can reach right into your bank account and get it.0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.
That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Here's an example:
My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.
That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Here's an example:
My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!
how upsetting. Becoming a doctor without having to pay for it up front has a trade-off, it seems.
First world problems, eh?
I got my college degree paid for up front but I couldn't afford to choose my favorite specialty. Pardon me while I don't feel that bad for this poor victim.0 -
My husband and I are in "lower paying fields" of teaching and we have no problem paying our student loans. My husband has several Master's Degrees to pay for as well.That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Your brother can defer his loans for the time he's still in school/doing his residency. You realize that; right?My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!0 -
Doesn't the constitutionality argument go something along the lines of " the Constitution gives the US government authority to regulate markets." ?...which it clearly does.
If the government can compel us to purchase health insurance, for the greater financial and health-related good of us all, then where does their power end?
It would be cheaper for all of our healthcare if nobody were obese. So tomorrow, the government is going to decide how many calories you can consume. What foods you can eat. How many hours of gym time you must rack up. Because if we were all thinner it would eliminate so many diseases. And if you fail to comply with these requirements, we are going to fine you. If you don't pay your fine, we can reach right into your bank account and get it. Okey dokey?
But that's not constitutional. And neither is the individual mandate, without which the entire law falls apart.
You're describing a flaw in our insurance and medical market system, not the government. You want privatized medicine, but not consider it a market like any other? When profit is a motivator, the good of the people (ostensibly the point of healthcare) must necessarily come second. That comes with the problems we're now seeing.0 -
Your brother can defer his loans for the time he's still in school/doing his residency. You realize that; right?
And the interest still is charged at that time, leaving an even larger debt.
The point appears to be missed, however. (Calling him a "poor victim" gets a big eyeroll from me!) Because of the astronomical costs involved, he cannot work with an underserved community, as his first choice would have been. This hits back on the original topic as well.0 -
What I mean by that is when a person graduates and has a job, they should already know the debt they're in with student loans. That should be taken into consideration prior to buying a house, a new car, or adding any other debt.By not making student loans a priority, do you mean they pay for housing, food, and healthcare? Yeah, my student loans may fall last on that list too.
That supposes that people can even find a job. Or that they haven't lost the one they did have. Or that they work in a field that it is feasible to pay off loans needed. We're in a catch-22 with higher education, especially in lower paying fields like teaching.
Here's an example:
My brother received a scholarship for his undergrad, 100% paid for. He received a scholarship for graduate school that covered 70% of his expenses and tuition. He's now going to medical school, where he has no scholarships. At the end of med school, he will owe over $200,000 (and this is a state school). He won't earn much of a salary for another 8 years. When he was first looking at med school, he wanted to work as a GP in an underserved area. That is impossible, given the debt he will incur. He has no choice but to work in a different specialty, probably as a surgeon. And while he's still going to realize his dream of being a doctor, the loans make it impossible to do what he really wants to do. And he's got no undergrad debt, unlike most others!
All I can say is you are out of touch with the cause that you are trying to champion whatever that may be
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All I can say is you are out of touch with the cause that you are trying to champion whatever that may be.
Noted. :huh:0 -
You all realize that the health care bill was passed and not one person in Congress actually read the whole bill, not even the person who wrote it! You all get that right? Nancy Pelosi said that we "Have to pass the bill so that you can find out what's in it." Really? Seriously???
There's a reason why Healthcare is offered as a BENEFIT and a reason why some businesses don't offer the BENEFIT to their employees: They can't afford it. I'm a small business and if I were to have employees and be forced to provide them with healthcare I wouldn't be in business any longer because I can't afford it. I think it is absolutely ludoucris that I can be fined for not carrying health insurance. What happens if I don't pay the fine, are they going to put me in jail?
I think the whole bill should be kicked out.
It shouldn't be kicked out -- it should just be written with more thought than.. OH ****, Let's put this out and pass it NOW.
Healthcare is a benefit that every human being should have, not a luxury.0 -
Your brother can defer his loans for the time he's still in school/doing his residency. You realize that; right?
And the interest still is charged at that time, leaving an even larger debt.
The point appears to be missed, however. (Calling him a "poor victim" gets a big eyeroll from me!) Because of the astronomical costs involved, he cannot work with an underserved community, as his first choice would have been. This hits back on the original topic as well.
Yes, as I said, it turns out that having the government pay up front for your education carries a trade-off. If he could've afforded to pay his tuition when it was due, instead of having the luxury of being able to pay it off years afterwards, then he would've also had the luxury of choosing his specialty.
What's the problem here?0 -
Everyone can receive care for their health. You don't need health insurance for that. It may be less convenient, but there is care for the uninsured.Healthcare is a benefit that every human being should have, not a luxury.0 -
Everyone can receive care for their health. You don't need health insurance for that. It may be less convenient, but there is care for the uninsured.Healthcare is a benefit that every human being should have, not a luxury.
But then when somebody goes to the hospital without health insurance and it turns out that they cannot pay for it, the tax payers pay for it. We're paying for it one way or another.0 -
Or, you know, making colleges be more responsible with the money they do get.
since the government is granted the right to control how responsibly colleges spend their money right? Where in the constitution did you find that part?
I'm not saying that it is in the Constitution. But, when the federal government grants a college money, they can put mandates in it so that all of the money doesn't go to the people at the top; so it goes to them along with the teachers, scholarships, things that the classrooms need, and things like that.0 -
Exactly. When will it end with the government taking over our healthcare?It would be cheaper for all of our healthcare if nobody were obese. So tomorrow, the government is going to decide how many calories you can consume. What foods you can eat. How many hours of gym time you must rack up. Because if we were all thinner it would eliminate so many diseases. And if you fail to comply with these requirements, we are going to fine you. If you don't pay your fine, we can reach right into your bank account and get it.
Debates would be better if people would stop using fallacies.0 -
Obamacare is over expansive. It's not that I don't want everyone cared for. This just isn't the way.0
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Obamacare is over expansive. It's not that I don't want everyone cared for. This just isn't the way.
I agree. I don't like Obamacare either, but there are better options out there. Ones that aren't going to be as expensive as Obamacare would or the healthcare system we have now is. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Germany's system is one of those. As is Japan's.
Like I have mentioned, when somebody goes to the emergency room and cannot pay for their treatment, the cost goes to the taxpayers because the hospitals have to get the money for their supplies in some way. This means that we actually pay more of a per cent of our GDP than countries like Germany and Japan. These places also have private insurance companies that people can opt into, which takes down the waiting times for doctors visits, and Japan does better than us when it comes to technology and innovation, while Germany is on par with us.
I'm not saying that Obamacare is the way to go, because I believe that it is not. I'm saying that there are cheaper, more efficient systems. I'll post a link to some figures that show what America pays of their GDP for healthcare compared to other countries.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/oecd042111.cfm0 -
How do we decide if you 'need' the expensive treatment or the cheaper one? Because if the government is paying, it puts them squarely in charge of what gets paid for. It's my understanding that socialized medicine is OK at responding to everyday conditons and preventative services, but when it comes to specialized services/treatments/care, many people travel to the US for superior care, because their socialized medicine either can't or won't pay for such things.
Not exactly. Speaking of the UK's National Health Service, specifically, the vast majority of specialized care is covered by the system, albeit not always close to home, and sometimes not as quickly as is desired by the individual. Certain medications and treatments may not be available in a certain locality, but are almost always available in others, requiring patients with certain conditions to travel or occasionally, move, to follow a treatment plan.
I think you are speaking here of those who travel to the US, among other countries(Switzerland, Italy, France, Germany, the UK, Japan) , to pursue highly-specialised or experimental treatments which are unavailable in their home countries through lack of local expertise, or because they are still being developed. If someone's last chance is represented by a single doctor in a foreign country, of course they will travel, if they can, to pursue this option. It's not generally about socialised medical systems' willingness to pay, but actually about the availability of a certain treatment, equipment or expertise, which in many cases, is only available in one place in the world. I have heard of cases in the UK where the costs of such travel have been partially or wholly borne by the NHS in the pursuit of the health of all citizens.
A question for LuckyLeprechaun, re. your first post - please could you explain to me how the Obamacare bill has affected your student loan payment system? Not sure I follow!
As for this...
Ummmm...if they wrote it, by definition they read it! I can quite believe that individual members of Congress may not have read the whole thing in detail, but this hyperbole is self-evidentially fallacious!You all realize that the health care bill was passed and not one person in Congress actually read the whole bill, not even the person who wrote it!
For what it's worth, I'm not sure that a mandate for individuals to buy private health insurance is the way to achieve universal healthcare in the US either (the models seen in the UK and Europe, whilst imperfect, are infinitely more efficient in the first place, and vastly more affordable and equitable). What I find utterly incomprehensible is the idea that seems to be prevalent here that healthcare is a privilege, rather than a basic human need. In the modern world, every Western nation is capable of providing medical care to all its' citizens, provided that caring for the ill is not seen as something to be exploited for immense profits by a bewildering armada of corporate interests. To my mind, it is a fundamental moral duty of care to our fellow human beings that we do so.0 -
I don't have an informed opinion about Obamacare; however, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about "socialized" medicine. I live in Canada, and in my experience the people who complain about healthcare here are those who don't get exactly what they want, right when they want it. Some of those people will chose to go south of the border and pay cash for what they want. On the other hand, through three very serious health issues with close family, (brain cancer, catastophic accident, child with encephalitis which turned out to be a metabolic disorder that is now being treated by the chief neurologist at Sick Kids hospital in Toronto) I have seen excellent care and access to top specialists without having to clear everything done through an insurance company. I am aware of at least one medical specialist from here who was courted for many years by an American hospital and finally went, but lasted only a few months because he quickly became frustrated by dealing with HMO's and insurance people. Yes, sometimes more serious problems will bump elective procedures, and there are problems, as with any system, but like the poster from the UK I believe the system here is better than some would have you believe. I have a GP with whom I can get an appointment easily, a walk in clinic where I can get help (like a tetanus shot when I stepped on a nail a couple of weeks ago) quickly, and no worries about pulling out a credit card to pay for it. I know, I know, I do pay through my taxes. I just wanted to dispel some of the notions people seem to get about how our system works.0
