Chick-Fila
Replies
-
The examples that you used were your choice and reveal your nature whether you realize it or not.
Here, have a shovel. It'll be easier.I wasn’t intending to compare anything in my last remarks. I was only responding to the question of what does the phrase, “intrinsic moral evil” mean. I was trying to use obvious examples that we wouldn’t disagree about in order to illustrate intrinsic disorder. I presume that you would say that “zoophilia” is morally disordered because of its distance from the “natural” or biological purpose of human sexuality (at least I hope you would agree with that). If you say that the biology or natural meaning of human sexual acts is unimportant in the moral evaluation of such acts, I’m not sure what barrier you will be able to place between people committing other, more distant, acts. I guess my point is: What is it that makes a sexual act “immoral”? If you say that all that matters is the “feelings” or desires of the person, I’m not sure how you can avoid all kinds of other possibilities (zoophilia, polygamy, etc.).0 -
I don't even understand the point you're trying to make. I don't hate anyone. I actually hate the actions of people who promote hatred, and that is why I've said I have an issue with Chic Fil A and Westboro Baptist Church.So your defense is that you are ingorant and obvious as opposed to hateful?0 -
Here, have a shovel. It'll be easier.
Okay, so you tell me. What sexual acts do you find morally wrong and why? Let's go there.0 -
And, again, you're confusing the views of the Church as Patti's personal views. It would be great if you'd not do that, as I've already stated I don't share all the same views. You wan't to debate with the Pope, go ahead.Here, have a shovel. It'll be easier.0 -
Here, have a shovel. It'll be easier.
It's not about me, babe. You're the one calling gays cat f*ckers. I'm just saying quit pretending that you're any different than the purveyors of hatred that run your religion.Okay, so you tell me. What sexual acts do you find morally wrong and why? Let's go there.0 -
It's not about me, babe. You're the one calling gays cat f*ckers. I'm just saying quit pretending that you're any different than the purveyors of hatred that run your religion.
I never said that, and I think you know that. You don't know anything about my personal life, and your comments only prove that. But, I like how you avoided my question. Your language exudes class, which does say a lot about you, by the way.0 -
I think some people need to keep in mind that just because someone is Catholic, does not mean they agree 100% with all of the Church's teachings. I know tons of Catholics who have had pre-marital sex, are on birth control, don't go to church every Sunday, etc. Does that make us "bad" Catholics? No. That makes us humans. Be careful of thinking that all Catholics preach what comes out of the Pope's mouth.
And, when I'm asked for a definition or an explanation of something in the bible or that is taught by the Church, I'm giving the Church's position on it. NOT Patti's personal view.
Which begs my question, what's the point of being Catholic versus other some other form of Christianity if one disagrees with the Vatican on a certain % of issues. At point do you look at that percentage and say, "Ya know, those Lutherans do some funky things with their chapels, and we seem to agree on a lot stuff..."
Maybe I can answer as I was raise as a Lutheran, attended Lutheran school and church for nearly 12 years of my life. I think with the different denominations, though all having the same general beliefs, they greatly differ on how they interpret scripture. Even with Lutherans, there are different 'synods' with different beliefs. We took first communion in 8th grade, my cousin's Lutheran church does it in 3rd grade... Some churches are open and tolerant to divorce, gays and some will excommunicate you if you divorce, even in the case of abuse or infidelity.
With any denomination of Christianity, It really just come down to the particular church and congregation as to what is preached.0 -
With any denomination of Christianity, It really just come down to the particular church and congregation as to what is preached.
True. I have 3 sisters and we were all raised Catholic. Two of us are still Catholic, but one is Methodist and the other Lutheran. I think it's where you feel comfortable.0 -
It's not about me, babe. You're the one calling gays cat f*ckers. I'm just saying quit pretending that you're any different than the purveyors of hatred that run your religion.
I made my point. It's not about me because I'm not the one with the hatred issues and the sexual hang-ups. Also, I happen to f*cking love the sound of the word *kitten*. i say it a lot. f*ckity, *kitten*, *kitten*. I type it so I can hear it in my head. Your reaction to it says more about you than my use of it does me. I know enough about you by the choice of examples you used.I never said that, and I think you know that. You don't know anything about my personal life, and your comments only prove that. But, I like how you avoided my question. Your language exudes class, which does say a lot about you, by the way.0 -
I made my point. It's not about me because I'm not the one with the hatred issues and the sexual hang-ups. Also, I happen to f*cking love the sound of the word *kitten*. i say it a lot. f*ckity, *kitten*, *kitten*. I type it so I can hear it in my head. Your reaction to it says more about you than my use of it does me. I know enough about you by the choice of examples you used.
Who is the one with hatred issues and sexual hang-ups? You just can't address the question I posed to you, huh? You're not willing to state what sexual acts you find morally wrong and why. Why not?
And here is my comment again for your re-reading pleasure:
"An “intrinsic moral evil” is an act that is morally flawed by its very nature. In other word, it is an action that cannot conceivably be “right” in any context. For instance, it is wrong to blaspheme God. It is inherently “disordered” or morally evil to curse God. It is intrinsically wrong to “marry” a dog or a cat. That phrase certainly does not mean that human nature is evil as such but that certain actions, that humans can commit, are inherently disordered or “distorted” and therefore cannot be approved as morally acceptable. This does not mean that people who have sinned like this shouldn't receive absolution, love, and to be treated with human dignity".
If you can tell me where I called homosexuals cat fuc$ers, I'd appreciate it. I never even used the example of sex. I said one cannot marry a dog or a cat. So, it appears you have more sexual hang ups than I do. And again, I used that example because it is something I thought you'd agree on. Perhaps you're all for marrying your dog and that's what's got you so upset.0 -
Here, have a shovel. It'll be easier.
It's not about me, babe. You're the one calling gays cat f*ckers. I'm just saying quit pretending that you're any different than the purveyors of hatred that run your religion.Okay, so you tell me. What sexual acts do you find morally wrong and why? Let's go there.
With all due respect.... How do you come up with your conclusions?
This is your quote swanny..When the Pope decalres, "Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered to an intrinsic moral evil, and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."
Then you asked...Could you explain to me the term "intrinsic moral evil"? Because it kinda sounds to me like it's saying that someone's very nature is evil.
Patti answered your question...An “intrinsic moral evil” is an act that is morally flawed by its very nature. In other word, it is an action that cannot conceivably be “right” in any context. For instance, it is wrong to blaspheme God. It is inherently “disordered” or morally evil to curse God. It is intrinsically wrong to “marry” a dog or a cat. That phrase certainly does not mean that human nature is evil as such but that certain actions, that humans can commit, are inherently disordered or “distorted” and therefore cannot be approved as morally acceptable. This does not mean that people who have sinned like this shouldn't receive absolution, love, and to be treated with human dignity.
You somehow came to this conclusion?
She never said she agreed with the Pope's assessment that homosexuality is an "instrinsic moral evil" and she never suggested that homosexuals were the same as people that have sex with animals. Normally I am the crazy one but this is over the topSo you just compared homosexuality with zoophilia. Ok, good to know where you stand on this issue.
Everything is not black and white. A person can be a catholic and support gay rights.0 -
I think some people need to keep in mind that just because someone is Catholic, does not mean they agree 100% with all of the Church's teachings. I know tons of Catholics who have had pre-marital sex, are on birth control, don't go to church every Sunday, etc. Does that make us "bad" Catholics? No. That makes us humans. Be careful of thinking that all Catholics preach what comes out of the Pope's mouth.
And, when I'm asked for a definition or an explanation of something in the bible or that is taught by the Church, I'm giving the Church's position on it. NOT Patti's personal view.
Which begs my question, what's the point of being Catholic versus other some other form of Christianity if one disagrees with the Vatican on a certain % of issues. At point do you look at that percentage and say, "Ya know, those Lutherans do some funky things with their chapels, and we seem to agree on a lot stuff..."
You are saying that one cannot be Catholic because one disagrees with certain things regarding the religion? That is just absurd! Completely absurd and ridiculous! Your argument is completely flawed. What you are arguing is comparable to saying that I cannot be a Democrat because I don't approve of Obamacare, I cannot be Islamic because I don't agree with women using burqas, etc., you get the drift. Get real or get out!0 -
Everything is not black and white. A person can be a catholic and support gay rights.
Thank you! Why is it so hard to believe that I can be Catholic but support gay rights? In another thread, I've already mentioned how it breaks my heart to think that two women who have lived together for 25 years cannot get insurance covered for each other when one retires. I just don't understand that. So, some don't want to call it a marraige.........we should at least make sure they receive the same benefits.0 -
Everything is not black and white. A person can be a catholic and support gay rights.
If the Catholic Church funds initiatives against same-sex marriage (lgbt rights in general), and the person tithes, then I don't see a huge difference between them and someone who eats at CFA. It's possible my understanding of how tithing works is off, but I presumed it was at a base level just a regular donation to the church based on income. While it's not exactly like you're buying your soul in the same way that someone buys a chicken sandwich, it's a still a financial transaction.0 -
I think some people need to keep in mind that just because someone is Catholic, does not mean they agree 100% with all of the Church's teachings. I know tons of Catholics who have had pre-marital sex, are on birth control, don't go to church every Sunday, etc. Does that make us "bad" Catholics? No. That makes us humans. Be careful of thinking that all Catholics preach what comes out of the Pope's mouth.
And, when I'm asked for a definition or an explanation of something in the bible or that is taught by the Church, I'm giving the Church's position on it. NOT Patti's personal view.
Which begs my question, what's the point of being Catholic versus other some other form of Christianity if one disagrees with the Vatican on a certain % of issues. At point do you look at that percentage and say, "Ya know, those Lutherans do some funky things with their chapels, and we seem to agree on a lot stuff..."
You are saying that one cannot be Catholic because one disagrees with certain things regarding the religion? That is just absurd! Completely absurd and ridiculous! Your argument is completely flawed. What you are arguing is comparable to saying that I cannot be a Democrat because I don't approve of Obamacare, I cannot be Islamic because I don't agree with women using burqas, etc., you get the drift. Get real or get out!
I said nothing, and instead asked a question. It comes to an issue of definition. What are the minimum requirements for being Catholic and how does that fit into how one agrees, to what extent one agrees, with the Vatican?
Your reading comprehension is flawed.0 -
If the Catholic Church funds initiatives against same-sex marriage (lgbt rights in general), and the person tithes, then I don't see a huge difference between them and someone who eats at CFA. It's possible my understanding of how tithing works is off, but I presumed it was at a base level just a regular donation to the church based on income. While it's not exactly like you're buying your soul in the same way that someone buys a chicken sandwich, it's a still a financial transaction.
My issue with CFA is not their position on family values. My issue with them is some of the organizations it supports. Some of those organizations are horrid. One of my gay friends sent me a link for my edification and I was shocked. That is why I chose not to go to CFA yesterday or in the future. If I found out that my specific parish was financially supporting such an organization, I'd stop giving money there and send my money directly to other places.0 -
If the Catholic Church funds initiatives against same-sex marriage (lgbt rights in general), and the person tithes, then I don't see a huge difference between them and someone who eats at CFA. It's possible my understanding of how tithing works is off, but I presumed it was at a base level just a regular donation to the church based on income. While it's not exactly like you're buying your soul in the same way that someone buys a chicken sandwich, it's a still a financial transaction.
This was the point I was trying to make, that there's no difference (he says not a huge diffrerence, I say none), before patti decided that all gays rape cats as part of their initiation ritual into gayhood.0 -
If the Catholic Church funds initiatives against same-sex marriage (lgbt rights in general), and the person tithes, then I don't see a huge difference between them and someone who eats at CFA. It's possible my understanding of how tithing works is off, but I presumed it was at a base level just a regular donation to the church based on income. While it's not exactly like you're buying your soul in the same way that someone buys a chicken sandwich, it's a still a financial transaction.
This was the point I was trying to make, that there's no difference (he says not a huge diffrerence, I say none), before patti decided that all gays rape cats as part of their initiation ritual into gayhood.
In Patti's defense, not that she necessarily needs it:
1. The Catholic church seems to adopt a slippery slope fallacy when it comes homosexuality, but that doesn't really equate to all gays raping cats.
2. Patti was speaking about the Church's stances, not her own views.0 -
If I boycotted every business that did something I didn't agree with I would be naked and have nothing to eat.
FOR THE WIN!!!0 -
I think she and the Pope are in cahoots.0
-
If the Catholic Church funds initiatives against same-sex marriage (lgbt rights in general), and the person tithes, then I don't see a huge difference between them and someone who eats at CFA. It's possible my understanding of how tithing works is off, but I presumed it was at a base level just a regular donation to the church based on income. While it's not exactly like you're buying your soul in the same way that someone buys a chicken sandwich, it's a still a financial transaction.
My issue with CFA is not their position on family values. My issue with them is some of the organizations it supports. Some of those organizations are horrid. One of my gay friends sent me a link for my edification and I was shocked. That is why I chose not to go to CFA yesterday or in the future. If I found out that my specific parish was financially supporting such an organization, I'd stop giving money there and send my money directly to other places.
I appreciate that. I really do. I might appreciate it more if you had said you'd be willing to verify with your parish to ensure that none of your money is being donated to any initiatives that attempt to ban my marriage, etc, but we don't always get what we want.0 -
I think some people need to keep in mind that just because someone is Catholic, does not mean they agree 100% with all of the Church's teachings. I know tons of Catholics who have had pre-marital sex, are on birth control, don't go to church every Sunday, etc. Does that make us "bad" Catholics? No. That makes us humans. Be careful of thinking that all Catholics preach what comes out of the Pope's mouth.
And, when I'm asked for a definition or an explanation of something in the bible or that is taught by the Church, I'm giving the Church's position on it. NOT Patti's personal view.
Which begs my question, what's the point of being Catholic versus other some other form of Christianity if one disagrees with the Vatican on a certain % of issues. At point do you look at that percentage and say, "Ya know, those Lutherans do some funky things with their chapels, and we seem to agree on a lot stuff..."
You are saying that one cannot be Catholic because one disagrees with certain things regarding the religion? That is just absurd! Completely absurd and ridiculous! Your argument is completely flawed. What you are arguing is comparable to saying that I cannot be a Democrat because I don't approve of Obamacare, I cannot be Islamic because I don't agree with women using burqas, etc., you get the drift. Get real or get out!
I said nothing, and instead asked a question. It comes to an issue of definition. What are the minimum requirements for being Catholic and how does that fit into how one agrees, to what extent one agrees, with the Vatican?
Your reading comprehension is flawed.
I don't really have enough background to answer this, but doesn't that just make you kind of a methodist who takes communion?
Or put more appropriately, at what point can you no longer legitimately claim to be Catholic. Like what are the basic requirements for being a Catholic if you don't accept the Pope's authority on so many issues.
I was actually responding to this and totally misread because I am a total nerd and was reading this while waiting at the red light, so half-assed read it, so my apology for an incorrect response. BUT to respond correctly now to your question, one claims to be a Catholic through the sacrament of confirmation! One makes a profession of Faith and then we receive the Sacrament of Confirmation and we are officially Catholics after this. Although one might argue at one becomes a catholic at baptism.
"Of course one is free to make the profession weakly without full sincerity and become like the many cradle Catholics who feel free reject the Church's wisdom and authority, but most people don't want to do that. So the hurdle of belief is actually a bit higher in practice for converts because they are typically going to want to make sure the really know what they should believe and that they really agree or are willing to accept the authority of the Church and continue praying and studying.
A full list of things to believe would be difficult but in brief the biggies:
1) The Nicaean Creed - and everything in it - pretty literally
a) Jesus is God become man, died for our sins and rose from the Dead
b) the Trinity
c) Apostolic - meaning that the authority of the apostles is still living today in the Bishops and Magesterium of the Catholic Church
2) A lot of things follow from that, particularly from c) above because if you accept the authority of the Church then you are at least willing to struggle in Faith with everything the Church teaches.
a) the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders and Anointing of the sick.
b) The real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
c) Salvation if God's free gift that we can't earn, but ... faith without works is dead... we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling and persevere to the end of the race. Those who die in a State of Grace will go to heaven, but we can't presume that will be us. The sacraments are means of God's grace to strengthen us and help us to get there.
d) Mary was immaculately conceived and perpetually virgin, but she was / is a created being and other than being spared from Sin by God's grace she was / is just like us. She is not God and we don't worship her, but we do know that she is Jesus' mommy and he will listen to her prayers.
e) sex is for marriage between a man and woman and the unitive aspect of sex can not be deliberately separated from the procreative aspect."
These are the "big" ideals behind the catholic church. This is what we believe. I think that once I stop believing in these ideals, that is when one stops becoming a Catholic or when you no longer have faith in the religion.
I have no idea about the Methodist religion so I don't know how to respond that.0 -
I love the drama. One man says what he thinks personally and now EVERY christian is a homophobe. Because one view isn't agreed upon, the other side is a bigot. No one is kicking people out of restaurants, or denying them service. I don't see the hate. I don't see anyone trying to force their ideals upon people. The West Boro Baptists, those freaks are bigots. Every organization will have it's "extremists". Here's what I find hypocritical. Some people, who have their view as traditional, are deemed homophopic by association, even after the fact that they have said otherwise. The tradionalists are being being told "don't judge us", but yet are being judged themselves. In the end, who are the stone throwers? If everyone would have ignored that Cathy guy, would this have been really a big deal?0
-
Actually, now I'm quite interested in knowing where my parish sends money. I'm going to ask for ALL the organizations. If I oppose any, I can just send my money directly to various places (The Gabriel Project, St. Vincent de Paul Society, and other social justice programs). Places I really want my money going. Glad we had this discussion!I appreciate that. I really do. I might appreciate it more if you had said you'd be willing to verify with your parish to ensure that none of your money is being donated to any initiatives that attempt to ban my marriage, etc, but we don't always get what we want.0 -
I love the drama. One man says what he thinks personally and now EVERY christian is a homophobe. Because one view isn't agreed upon, the other side is a bigot. No one is kicking people out of restaurants, or denying them service. I don't see the hate. I don't see anyone trying to force their ideals upon people. The West Boro Baptists, those freaks are bigots. Every organization will have it's "extremists". Here's what I find hypocritical. Some people, who have their view as traditional, are deemed homophopic by association, even after the fact that they have said otherwise. The tradionalists are being being told "don't judge us", but yet are being judged themselves. In the end, who are the stone throwers? If everyone would have ignored that Cathy guy, would this have been really a big deal?
Do you know what places funded by Exodus International (which was funded in whatever fraction by CFA) actually do?
For the record, judge me. I'm a big boy. I can take it. Force gay teenagers into conversion camps that use mind bending guilt and aversion therapy? Nope, that you don't get to do. Judging is fine, but funding political initiatives that want to make me a second class citizen is, in fact, forcing someone else's values on me.0 -
I love the drama. One man says what he thinks personally and now EVERY christian is a homophobe. Because one view isn't agreed upon, the other side is a bigot. No one is kicking people out of restaurants, or denying them service. I don't see the hate. I don't see anyone trying to force their ideals upon people. The West Boro Baptists, those freaks are bigots. Every organization will have it's "extremists". Here's what I find hypocritical. Some people, who have their view as traditional, are deemed homophopic by association, even after the fact that they have said otherwise. The tradionalists are being being told "don't judge us", but yet are being judged themselves. In the end, who are the stone throwers? If everyone would have ignored that Cathy guy, would this have been really a big deal?
Do you know what places funded by Exodus International (which was funded in whatever fraction by CFA) actually do?
For the record, judge me. I'm a big boy. I can take it. Force gay teenagers into conversion camps that use mind bending guilt and aversion therapy? Nope, that you don't get to do. Judging is fine, but funding political initiatives that want to make me a second class citizen is, in fact, forcing someone else's values on me.
Now I get that whatever was donated to Exodus international or any other group of the nature is too much.... but it was $1000 out of the 5 million.... and interestingly, unless my reading comprehension and/or information is totally off, Exodus International was/is ran by professed "ex-gays"... at least to some degree. In fact, one of the founders and another leader (both male) left the group and ran off with each other.0 -
If the Catholic Church funds initiatives against same-sex marriage (lgbt rights in general), and the person tithes, then I don't see a huge difference between them and someone who eats at CFA. It's possible my understanding of how tithing works is off, but I presumed it was at a base level just a regular donation to the church based on income. While it's not exactly like you're buying your soul in the same way that someone buys a chicken sandwich, it's a still a financial transaction.
This was the point I was trying to make, that there's no difference (he says not a huge diffrerence, I say none), before patti decided that all gays rape cats as part of their initiation ritual into gayhood.
Patti can sometimes sound like she is making declarative statements when explaining official church positions, but she has taken more than enough time to explain herself and that should be sufficient. To continue to browbeat her is not only a violation of the terms of service, but it is classless as well.0 -
Patti can sometimes sound like she is making declarative statements when explaining official church positions, but she has taken more than enough time to explain herself and that should be sufficient. To continue to browbeat her is not only a violation of the terms of service, but it is classless as well.
Well, bless your heart.0 -
I love the drama. One man says what he thinks personally and now EVERY christian is a homophobe. Because one view isn't agreed upon, the other side is a bigot. No one is kicking people out of restaurants, or denying them service. I don't see the hate. I don't see anyone trying to force their ideals upon people. The West Boro Baptists, those freaks are bigots. Every organization will have it's "extremists". Here's what I find hypocritical. Some people, who have their view as traditional, are deemed homophopic by association, even after the fact that they have said otherwise. The tradionalists are being being told "don't judge us", but yet are being judged themselves. In the end, who are the stone throwers? If everyone would have ignored that Cathy guy, would this have been really a big deal?
There was a time when people thought it was ok to tell blacks not to sit in certain places. Just last year a local bakery refused service to a group of gay people who wanted to place an order for an event. How is that different, denying someone service for their skin color or sexual orientation is a violation of civil rights. You don't see the hate> look at any thread on facebook and see comments from "Christians" saying things like "*kitten* need to be imprisoned, deported to Uganda where they will be killed" and many other horrible things. Apparently you are just turning a blind eye to it. Even LGBT websites are being bombarded by hate groups over their "traditional marriage views".
I've heard the argument "if you are against the Christian beliefs, then you are just as intolerant." That's a bunch of crap. It's about denying a group of innocent people basic human treatment because of their sexual orientation. No one is required to tolerate hate.
I don't even understand the Christian argument. If you say "I'm against gay marriage because the bible says it's wrong", then you argument is invalid. The bible says a hell of a lot of other things that I guarantee Christians don't follow.
The bible is not a bag of trail mix, you can't just pick and choose what you want and leave the rest.0 -
Truth!I don't even understand the Christian argument. If you say "I'm against gay marriage because the bible says it's wrong", then you argument is invalid. The bible says a hell of a lot of other things that I guarantee Christians don't follow.0
This discussion has been closed.