Newest Lab Results not quite what I expected
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In 11 months I plan to get another CAC scoring test just to see any trend line that may develop. I am reading arterial inflammation is required for calcium deposits to form. I am wondering if heavy Wobenzym usage for 2 years was positive for my good CAC score last month.0
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Well, some of the docs who prescribe statins do so not to whittle down LDL but to reduce inflammation and allow plaque to stabilize......0
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GaleHawkins wrote: »
Hmm. I had not understood the anti-inflammatory effect to be conjecture (nor the idea that inflammation contributes to calcium build-up...) ??0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
Hmm. I had not understood the anti-inflammatory effect to be conjecture (nor the idea that inflammation contributes to calcium build-up...) ??
No inflammation = no plaque build up may be an oversimplification but I did read that recently.
"Let me back up and explain exactly what cardiac calcification is. During the beginning stages of artery disease, the lining of aortic wall becomes inflamed, then plaque starts to build up and over time, calcium deposits begin to form in the artery wall. Those deposits are the calcification."
Source: thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/15/how-can-cardiac-calcification-be-treated/comment-page-1/
It seems No Inflammation=No clogged arteries.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »
Hmm. I had not understood the anti-inflammatory effect to be conjecture (nor the idea that inflammation contributes to calcium build-up...) ??
No inflammation = no plaque build up may be an oversimplification but I did read that recently.
"Let me back up and explain exactly what cardiac calcification is. During the beginning stages of artery disease, the lining of aortic wall becomes inflamed, then plaque starts to build up and over time, calcium deposits begin to form in the artery wall. Those deposits are the calcification."
Source: thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/15/how-can-cardiac-calcification-be-treated/comment-page-1/
It seems No Inflammation=No clogged arteries.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
Hmm. I had not understood the anti-inflammatory effect to be conjecture (nor the idea that inflammation contributes to calcium build-up...) ??
No inflammation = no plaque build up may be an oversimplification but I did read that recently.
"Let me back up and explain exactly what cardiac calcification is. During the beginning stages of artery disease, the lining of aortic wall becomes inflamed, then plaque starts to build up and over time, calcium deposits begin to form in the artery wall. Those deposits are the calcification."
Source: thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/15/how-can-cardiac-calcification-be-treated/comment-page-1/
It seems No Inflammation=No clogged arteries.
I would love to believe this given results of my inflammation scores (0.2 hsCRP with optimal being below 1.0, 266 fibrinogen with optimal being below 370 and MPO 116 with optimal being below 450) however, there is newer research showing a strong link with LpPLA and vascular calcification. On that one, I am in the borderline segment with 198 (optimal is below 180 and high risk is over 225).
I also have to take with a grain of salt what is in the link you provided since he states, "Limit or avoid transfat and saturated fats found in fried foods, cookies, eggs..." I will agree with the cookies part, but eggs? Really? I would hope being a doctor, he would finally be over this irrational fear of eggs which even the ADA calls a diabetic super food.2 -
I see when my old computer was locking up and I thought was not posting actually double posted.
@cstehansen that is a very very low hsCRP score. My score of a 5 concerns me hence a driver of my research but I know anything below 10 with my arthritis is kind of OK.
On the other hand my CAC score of 9.3 blew me away because that is approaching ZERO as it is just under a score of 10. Clearly high CRP test numbers does not mean high arterial inflammation in my case.
When reading I use a lot of Grains of Salt.
I read somewhere the doctor in the article actually retired in 2003 so he must have been trained many many years ago but he is no longer a seller of the low fat way of eating. Basically I look for patterns and statements that fall outside a doctor's pattern I do not major on them because after enough reading they even seem to make sense in context of the full picture.
On eggs I just finished of a 2 dozen jar of pickled eggs.
If a doctor that is 40 and practicing today was down on eating eggs today I might tune him/her out.
Elevated Lp-PLA2 is kind of a new term to me so thanks for bringing it up. Now I understand better why I am taking the ton of plant based supplements that I do.
lifeextension.com/Protocols/Heart-Circulatory/Atherosclerosis-and-Cardiovascular-Disease/Page-01?p=1
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Hey Guys, I went to my PCP to get an advanced lipid profile done, and they really did not know what I was ordering. Doc poked his head in the door and said to order a VAP. So they drew blood for the Vap and it turns out that Lab Core doesn't do it any more after they sent it off. This office is totally uniformed about this kind of test. But, I think my doctor is open to this whole new type of testing.
I have to go back in next week to be redrawn for an NMR Lipo Profile, takes a different tube from what they drew Tuesday. My question for you guys, "Is NMR the correct test?"1 -
Hey Guys, I went to my PCP to get an advanced lipid profile done, and they really did not know what I was ordering. Doc poked his head in the door and said to order a VAP. So they drew blood for the Vap and it turns out that Lab Core doesn't do it any more after they sent it off. This office is totally uniformed about this kind of test. But, I think my doctor is open to this whole new type of testing.
I have to go back in next week to be redrawn for an NMR Lipo Profile, takes a different tube from what they drew Tuesday. My question for you guys, "Is NMR the correct test?"
lifeextension.com/Vitamins-Supplements/itemLC123810/NMR-LipoProfile-Blood-Test
This is the test that I ordered Online and drove to the nearest LabCorp lab for the blood draw. On their site they list the 40+ states where this service is available and distances to their blood drawing labs. I caught my on sale for $75 but I think it will be $100 (the regular price) if not more at a doctor's office. There are other labs offering the same private pay services in the USA but I do not know about the rest of the world. I use some of LEF's supplements and depend heavily on their medical research about supplements in general.
The above test includes your IR level numbers which is key to know if trying to prevent/recover from many disease states.
A local pharmacist turned me onto this service through LabCorp last year. In fact the last day of the last sale I purchased a full male panel and the NMP-LipoProfile to have ran at some future date.
Other labs have similar lipid tests and they may not be called NMP by name. I was concerned about 300+ cholesterol until I got back my NMP lipid panel results showing the size of my LDL being the large "fluffy" type (the term is kind of like Jumbo shrimp term). All LDL is very small but my NMR panel actually labelled the size and count.1 -
The doctor's office could not tell me what the NMR costs, neither could Anthem. I called Labcore up directly and they said the basic cost was $119, with Anthem's contractual rate it will be less and then would apply to my high deductible if done under doctor's orders. Anthem does cover the test.
Gale, I am so happy for you that your LDL is large and fluffy!!!1 -
@Aquawave thank you for asking for this. Getting this done and having the doctor willing to look at it could ultimately end up helping thousands. Dr Westman was totally against this WOE until 2 patients showed such amazing results and one of them convinced him to do lipid testing on him. Now look at how many people Dr Westman has helped. You could have just been the pebble that started the ripple that turns into a wave.2
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cstehansen wrote: »@Aquawave..... You could have just been the pebble that started the ripple that turns into a wave.
As in Aquawave.
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cstehansen wrote: »@Aquawave..... You could have just been the pebble that started the ripple that turns into a wave.
As in Aquawave.
Glad someone got that.3 -
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2729052/
Title of above article: Osteoprotegerin, vascular calcification and atherosclerosis
https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2840-12-11
Title of above article: Association of serum osteoprotegerin with vascular calcification in patients with type 2 diabetes
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0074211
Title of above article: TRAIL-Deficiency Accelerates Vascular Calcification in Atherosclerosis via Modulation of RANKL
When trying to learn more about a supplement called Spermidine I ran across articles that side tracked me because of my interest in factors behind Low/High CAC scoring results. These are from science journals and indicate to me maybe in time we will start to understand what protects and what causes arterial calcification.
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Finally I have the results of the NMR Lipid Profile. As I strongly suspected, my LDL-P is high, even though I have been on the LCHF diet for a year. God knows what is was when I was eating the ADA diet. These results are with taking 20 mg Generic Crestor for about a month, with 10 mg the proceeding month. My doctor has now upped the Crestor to 30mg with a lab testing in October to see the lipid results. if you have been following this thread, what a difference between my wellness a few months ago when I was not on Statins! So much for my one year vacation from Statins.
As you can see, the parts of the standard lipid profile are normal (except for LDL-C with is only 4 points above normal). At least I know now why my coronaries are extremely calcified with 27 years of statin therapy and perfect lipid profiles while being on them, my LDL-P count was high and nobody thought to test for it or tell me to get Heart Calcium Scan. Again, my thanks to the people on this discussion board. You guys have probably extended my life.
F LDL-P 1232 H <1000 (nmol/L)
F LDL-C 103 H 0-99 (mg/dL)
F HDL-C 77 >39 (mg/dL)
F Triglycerides 86 0-149 (mg/dL)
F Cholesterol, Total 197 100-199 (mg/dL)
F HDL-P (Total) 42.7 >=30.5 (umol/L)
F Small LDL-P 356 <=527 (nmol/L)
F LDL Size 20.8 >20.5 (nm)
F LP-IR Score <25 <=45
What surprised me was the LP-IR score concerning insulin resistance. Its looks good! I guess I have the diabetes under good control with my diet and metformin.
The insurance (Anthem) is having a problem with paying for the advanced part of this panal, citing medical necessity and needing my doctor's records in order to pay. I will never have a standard lipid profile again and will gladly pay put of pocket for the NMR Lipid Profile Panal ($119 with Lab Core).
Any comments are welcome!0 -
https://lewrockwell.com/2015/04/donald-w-miller-jr-md/my-wife-has-coronary-heart-disease/
I was reading on Co-Q10 and ran across this doctor's protocol that he developed after learning of his wife's high CAC score. It caught my attention because it is almost the same that I have developed over the past three years and may be part of the reason at age 66 my CAC was under 10 assuming the CT results were accurate. Time will tell but one knows the results of not trying to prevent Coronary Heart Disease when possible.
My driving force back in 2014 was learning how to prevent or reverse stage 3 and 4 cancer when I was planning to start taking Enbrel injections for pain management but never started after cutting out sugar and all forms of all grains (LCHF) managed my pain and fixed many 40 year long health issues.
Currently I think nearly 100% of human diseases start developing due to internal body inflammation because the same protocols seem to fix many disease states.1 -
Thanks for the link @GaleHawkins. I'm waiting for the results of my CAC (ordered by the functional medicine doctor I saw last week), and now I know what results are good and what's a bad range!
I think I'll send that link to my primary care physician, since she's been urging me to take statins for the past year, yet had no interest in doing the CAC test.
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Finally I have the results of the NMR Lipid Profile. As I strongly suspected, my LDL-P is high, even though I have been on the LCHF diet for a year. God knows what is was when I was eating the ADA diet. These results are with taking 20 mg Generic Crestor for about a month, with 10 mg the proceeding month. My doctor has now upped the Crestor to 30mg with a lab testing in October to see the lipid results. if you have been following this thread, what a difference between my wellness a few months ago when I was not on Statins! So much for my one year vacation from Statins.
As you can see, the parts of the standard lipid profile are normal (except for LDL-C with is only 4 points above normal). At least I know now why my coronaries are extremely calcified with 27 years of statin therapy and perfect lipid profiles while being on them, my LDL-P count was high and nobody thought to test for it or tell me to get Heart Calcium Scan. Again, my thanks to the people on this discussion board. You guys have probably extended my life.
F LDL-P 1232 H <1000 (nmol/L)
F LDL-C 103 H 0-99 (mg/dL)
F HDL-C 77 >39 (mg/dL)
F Triglycerides 86 0-149 (mg/dL)
F Cholesterol, Total 197 100-199 (mg/dL)
F HDL-P (Total) 42.7 >=30.5 (umol/L)
F Small LDL-P 356 <=527 (nmol/L)
F LDL Size 20.8 >20.5 (nm)
F LP-IR Score <25 <=45
What surprised me was the LP-IR score concerning insulin resistance. Its looks good! I guess I have the diabetes under good control with my diet and metformin.
The insurance (Anthem) is having a problem with paying for the advanced part of this panal, citing medical necessity and needing my doctor's records in order to pay. I will never have a standard lipid profile again and will gladly pay put of pocket for the NMR Lipid Profile Panal ($119 with Lab Core).
Any comments are welcome!
Looks pretty good!
Small LDL-P is low, so a high total LDL-P is not that big a deal (from what I gather), and your LDL Size is relatively large.
For many of us who switched to LC, it's possible that our Small LDL-P was quite a bit higher and our LDL Size lower for years during our cursed LF/ADA/AHA days. (Sure wish I'd had these tests at the beginning and end of that misguided epoch..)
I'm wondering why you're being pushed to increase the Crestor (unless it's related to inflammation markers). ??
PS I just bumped a related thread for you.
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@MyriiStorm I still do it but talking to MD's on this subject can make their insecurities jump into the conversation. Patients that eat themselves into good health are no long much of a financial asset to help with payment of their many years of student loans. This does not make them bad people but they have to move on to patients that will pay the bills longer term. I find the VA does a good job for me because these doctors are on salary I guess plus may be getting rid of school loans as a bonus. The VA has done some great research and understanding of LCHF Woes. The MD told me last year now they do not even consider treating cholesterol until the total cholesterol hits 290 which means they are buying fewer and fewer of stains and harming fewer and fewer vets with our tax dollars. I will have my NMR lipid panel results with me in Aug if the subject comes up.
Your test results will be what they are. I started reading up on what to do but it turned out I had started doing it when the VA brow beat me into getting my Vit D level out of the 20's a few years ago (now staying in the 75-95 range) and I had started on Vit K2 about 3 years ago and currently am doing about 3 mg of K2 MK-7 daily and will retest CAC scoring next May to see if score goes up/down/same. Typically they increase 10-15% annually so I want to know. Due to radiation risk I may not get another one for a long time regardless of my 2018 score.0 -
The Statins have been increased to lower the LDL-C. That in and of itself can possibly lower the Calcium Score (over 1,200). No guarantees.
I am currently supplementing with CoQ10, Wild Alaskan Fish Oil, Vitamin K-2, Mature Multi Vitamin, Super B, and getting more sun for my Vitamin D. My weight is now down to 141 and my fasting sugar this morning was 86.5 -
bump1
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Sounds like you are doing excellent1
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<refresh >0
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@aquawave, did you ever get the testing done you wanted to do?0
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retirehappy wrote: »@aquawave, did you ever get the testing done you wanted to do?
Yes, see above post on NMR results. Weight is holding steady between 138 and 140. We have been on this diet now since June 2016.
Insurance contracted rates resulted in me paying about $13. Not bad.
Hubby had his NMR and no surprise, his particle count was higher than normal also. Both of us are fighting the good fight.1 -
Great job on lowering your A1C!
I had the same problem, my dietician told me to switch to healthier oils and avoid deep fried foods and increase exercise and it shouldn't be like that anymore!1 -
Aquawave, I am sorry to hear your news and feel I am heading there, from a weight point of view I do best on very LCHF diets but it seems my body doesn't like it. My cholesterol is high, around 300, so I did the particle size tests and the results weren't good either.
But I did read that losing weight spikes your cholesterol levels and maybe that plays a role in all the other numbers spiking up?
But maybe you go strict vegetarian for a few weeks or eat just veggies and very lean proteins for a few months and see if that helps bring down your numbers. I know many people on this forum don't like the idea of non-LCHF but some people, based on my research, just don't process all the fat and cholesterol correctly-me being one of them.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
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Clownfish423 wrote: »Interesting chart! I haven't seen that before. I'm not resting with 6. I was just thrilled to drop it from 7! My goal is definitely in the lower 5's. I'm hoping to have more progress by the time of my physical in a few months. The combination of LCHF and increased exercise definitely helped with my weight loss and moved my A1c in the right direction!
Your advice is appreciated Also, thanks again for bumping the Undoctored thread!
Good job so far and being committed to keep working on your health. You're certainly doing the right things and will no doubt achieve your goal. I just wanted to say that using diabetes meds like maybe metformin, or at least the natural supplement berberine is perfectly ok until you can achieve that perfect A1c with lifestyle alone. It's more important to maintain normal blood sugar consistently than be medication free.
Just know that it's not representative of giving up or falling backward.2 -
I was totally fine going back on Metformin when I saw my primary care doc recently for a checkup after a couple years off of keto and a lot of weight gain. I regret not being responsible enough to go to the doctor during that time when I was off keto and struggilng and getting back on the meds a long time ago. I kept thinking I would fix it myself "any day now". I know that I don't personally have side effects when taking it and there seem to be reports every so often showing that Metformin helps with other things than just blood sugar.
My last A1C was 5.2 after 2 months back on keto. I fully expect my next one in November to be in the 4.5 range.4
