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  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    Hello everyone. I'm Jessie. I'm 28. A first time mom. I want to lose 180 pounds total. I'm trying to go keto. Im also doing fasting. I like to Bullet journal. I love Disney. I love Rachel hollis. Im getting married.. I just don't know when because of Covid.... The plan is July 4th. I'm always looking for friends feel free to add me.

    Hi @CurvyDreamer66,

    Welcome to LL.

    Congrats on the first child and getting married.

    If Keto+fasting makes it easier to stick to your calorie goals then it is worth pursuing. If not, there are other ways to stay in a calorie deficit. Remember that sustainability is how weight is really lost so scale results do not immediately indicate that a plan is the right one for you.
  • AlexandraFindsHerself1971
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    @CurvyDreamer66: Hi! I'm looking at getting married sometime too; we're waiting on him to have a solid job again before buying the ring.
  • Ccricfo
    Ccricfo Posts: 156 Member
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    mclark552 wrote: »
    Hi everyone. I am 33 and have struggled with weight ny my whole life. I work in retail management and am a mom to a 10yo boy. At the worst point, when my son was a toddler I was at 288lbs, when I saw that number in the scale I was horrified and lost about 45 lbs, but gained most of it back. This is my third go at MFP and hoping to stick to it this time.

    Stats:
    5'1"
    Starting weight: 272 (July 2020)
    Current weight: 243
    First goal: 235 (what I weighed when I got pregnant with my son in 2009)
    2nd goal: To reach ONEderland
    Ultimate long term goal: will reevaluate as I see how my body looks and how I feel

    Hi there and welcome!
  • benjaminlight
    benjaminlight Posts: 78 Member
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    Dante_80 wrote: »
    Oh, maybe some context might help.

    I quit smoking cold-turkey about 6 months ago. I was a chain smoker, doing about 55-60 cigarettes a day, averaged over 25 years (started smoking at 15). Also, I was (and still am of course) morbidly obese, and suffering from a lot of health problems (had a stroke five years ago, high blood pressure, pre-diabetic etc etc).

    In the span of one month since I quit, I gained 9kg (~20lb), I presume exclusively consisting of fat. I managed to reach 178kg (392lb), the heaviest I've ever been.

    And then I thought..."well, you managed to quit smoking and take care of your lungs dude, why don't you take care of the rest of your body now?" I've been the classic yo-yo dieter for 15 years now, and looking back, I think I always tended to half-*kitten* it and not take myself and my body seriously. Time for a change!

    Five months in, I've lost those 20 pounds I gained and then 63 more for good measure. I'm 309lb now, and have a long, long, loooooong road ahead of me to fix myself.

    I'll do it though, nothing is going to stop me. And I'm going to have fun on the way too! This time I'm sciencing the *kitten* out of this.

    dWQTEob.png

    I pity that poor fat, it has no chance! None I tell you! >:)

    Dante - what program is this? I love it!! Is this someplace in MFP - because if so - can someone show me how to find it?
  • Dante_80
    Dante_80 Posts: 479 Member
    edited October 2020
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    Dante - what program is this? I love it!! Is this someplace in MFP - because if so - can someone show me how to find it?

    It is a tracker like MFP, called Cronometer. I started using that before finding out about MFP, and I'm still using it now. Its' main limitation is that the food database is not user-made but curated.

    Which is both a boon and a curse, depending on the amount of processed/bought of the shelf foods you consume, and how compatible their labels are with the built in bar code scanner. Also, there is zero social aspect to it (no online community etc) which is...why I'm here..C:

    I'm following a diet where almost everything eaten is either a generic food or a food cooked by me, so I have zero problems with using USDA/NCCDB as my main source of information for logging. Your mileage may vary though!
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    Hi everyone. I am 33 and have struggled with weight ny my whole life. I work in retail management and am a mom to a 10yo boy. At the worst point, when my son was a toddler I was at 288lbs, when I saw that number in the scale I was horrified and lost about 45 lbs, but gained most of it back. This is my third go at MFP and hoping to stick to it this time.

    Stats:
    5'1"
    Starting weight: 272 (July 2020)
    Current weight: 243
    First goal: 235 (what I weighed when I got pregnant with my son in 2009)
    2nd goal: To reach ONEderland
    Ultimate long term goal: will reevaluate as I see how my body looks and how I feel


    Hi @MandiSaysHey,

    Welcome.

    So other than joining our group what will you do differently this time?

    The one thing that always catches my eye is any indication that a person believes that more willpower and discipline is part or all of the answer. That was a big part of my thinking for 30 years of failing. It was when I reversed my thinking that made the difference. Instead of forcing myself to stick to a plan, I made the plan easier to stick with.

    In my past I would have blinders on. I made weight loss the only thing I could see. It was my goal and my focus. I only cared that the scale was going down. I didn't consider that how easy it is to lose the next pound is more important than the speed of losing it. If the next pound is easy then the one after that should not be so hard... and so on...

    Sustainability is the key to getting lots of weight off. It may mean ditching some old ideas about only eating healthy, it could mean losing weight a little slower, it could mean both, or it could mean something else entirely.

  • AlexandraFindsHerself1971
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    Good Sunday to everyone ☘️🌸🌻
    New to the group. This is the group I have been looking for bc I have over 90lbs to lose. I have lost 13.5lbs so far. A1c dropped to prediabetic range. Moving in the right direction.
    I’ve always considered myself a proud big girl! Today, this weight is hard to carry around. My self esteem is low and, this is the hardest hurdle yet. Mind over Matter, so for me to get my mind over the weight, sore ankles, aching knees, diabetes, failed relationships with ex’s and friends...to combat it in a matter of fact way is difficult. To say the least.
    I tried therapy. Complete waste of time. I’m told to look up YouTube videos on visualization or meditate. So I’m going to skip the obvious and seek expensive therapy.
    If money was no object, i would hire an trainer to come to my home. And work me out 5 days a week. And have one of those food delivery services that follow your calorie count.
    I know it’s best to do this by myself, but I think the support of a group would help.
    Looking through some other groups people are losing 20lbs. I WISH! 😄🙃

    Please reach out. Comment. Gently. And I promise to return the same!

    BordeauxBee

    It is possible, you're with the right people. I started this year at 296 and said Oh, HELL no! and as of last Friday I am FIFTY pounds lighter, and five sizes down. I wouldn't have believed I can do it either. Especially since I can't eat "clean" due to food intolerances. And foot arthritis means I'm not going to add walking or running, and the gyms are shut due to COVID. But I am doing it. And you can too. It's just day by day and meal by meal, and if you eat your calorie budget or just below, you'll succeed. I believe in you.

    Therapy can help you with the self-esteem. It can help you with some of the negative self-talk that will go on in your head no matter the amount you weigh. And so it's good, because that negativity will make it a bit harder to do.
    But all you have to do is stay under calorie, however you prefer it. I eat candy bars every day, and chips. Other people can do it by eating a lot of vegetables, or going keto. But it's whatever works for you. I know you can do it.
  • _inHisGrace
    _inHisGrace Posts: 183 Member
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    Good Sunday to everyone ☘️🌸🌻
    New to the group. This is the group I have been looking for bc I have over 90lbs to lose. I have lost 13.5lbs so far. A1c dropped to prediabetic range. Moving in the right direction.
    I’ve always considered myself a proud big girl! Today, this weight is hard to carry around. My self esteem is low and, this is the hardest hurdle yet. Mind over Matter, so for me to get my mind over the weight, sore ankles, aching knees, diabetes, failed relationships with ex’s and friends...to combat it in a matter of fact way is difficult. To say the least.
    I tried therapy. Complete waste of time. I’m told to look up YouTube videos on visualization or meditate. So I’m going to skip the obvious and seek expensive therapy.
    If money was no object, i would hire an trainer to come to my home. And work me out 5 days a week. And have one of those food delivery services that follow your calorie count.
    I know it’s best to do this by myself, but I think the support of a group would help.
    Looking through some other groups people are losing 20lbs. I WISH! 😄🙃

    Please reach out. Comment. Gently. And I promise to return the same!

    BordeauxBee
    Hi! I’m glad to meet you! Please friend me. I’m proud of you for reaching out. This is the best group!


  • eliezalot
    eliezalot Posts: 620 Member
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    Good Sunday to everyone ☘️🌸🌻
    New to the group. This is the group I have been looking for bc I have over 90lbs to lose. I have lost 13.5lbs so far. A1c dropped to prediabetic range. Moving in the right direction.
    I’ve always considered myself a proud big girl! Today, this weight is hard to carry around. My self esteem is low and, this is the hardest hurdle yet. Mind over Matter, so for me to get my mind over the weight, sore ankles, aching knees, diabetes, failed relationships with ex’s and friends...to combat it in a matter of fact way is difficult. To say the least.
    I tried therapy. Complete waste of time. I’m told to look up YouTube videos on visualization or meditate. So I’m going to skip the obvious and seek expensive therapy.
    If money was no object, i would hire an trainer to come to my home. And work me out 5 days a week. And have one of those food delivery services that follow your calorie count.
    I know it’s best to do this by myself, but I think the support of a group would help.
    Looking through some other groups people are losing 20lbs. I WISH! 😄🙃

    Please reach out. Comment. Gently. And I promise to return the same!

    BordeauxBee

    It is possible, you're with the right people. I started this year at 296 and said Oh, HELL no! and as of last Friday I am FIFTY pounds lighter, and five sizes down. I wouldn't have believed I can do it either. Especially since I can't eat "clean" due to food intolerances. And foot arthritis means I'm not going to add walking or running, and the gyms are shut due to COVID. But I am doing it. And you can too. It's just day by day and meal by meal, and if you eat your calorie budget or just below, you'll succeed. I believe in you.

    Therapy can help you with the self-esteem. It can help you with some of the negative self-talk that will go on in your head no matter the amount you weigh. And so it's good, because that negativity will make it a bit harder to do.
    But all you have to do is stay under calorie, however you prefer it. I eat candy bars every day, and chips. Other people can do it by eating a lot of vegetables, or going keto. But it's whatever works for you. I know you can do it.

    Welcome @BordeauxBee!! And congrats on your progress so far. Getting that A1C down is amazing!!

    This is a great, kind, supportive group through all sorts of ups and downs. You can absolutely do this. I started last August at 257, and have lost 60 lbs since then (and still have another 50-ish to go). I tried many times before, but always gave up after a month or two (I made it too hard, compared myself too much to others, etc...). I'm honestly still amazed that I'm still here and still losing. I didn't even add in any exercise until this last spring...lost the first 40 lbs through diet alone.

    I eat what I like, I count the calories, and I try to hit my goal more days than not. Through the last year, I've been able to dial in my diet a bit more - learning that protein early in the day makes me feel more full, carbs for breakfast make me hungrier in the evening, and that I like to save room for a nightly treat. Everyone is different - Lasting weight loss is about finding the easiest path for you.

    The self-esteem bit is probably the hardest part for many of us. I think most of us have learned that losing weight itself doesn't actually solve our other problems. I'm 60 lbs lighter, my anxiety is still through the roof, I often feel like a failure, like I've let down friends and family, and constantly worry that people don't like me. But. As I've worked to address those other issue (thanks, therapy!), my approach toward weight loss has dramatically improved. And as I've done a lot of thinking and introspection during my weight loss, I apply those insights and lessons to my other life issues as well.

    (I second therapy, btw. It can take a while before you find the right approach and therapist that clicks with you, but I absolutely believe it can be helpful for anyone and everyone. Getting therapy to help with my anxiety has been the single best decision I've made in the last decade, and has spilled over to improvements in all other parts of my life.)

    It took me years to get there, but I loved my body at my highest weight - its curves, its softness, its strength. But my knees were sore, I was feeling much older than I am, I got out of breath going upstairs, my blood pressure was creeping up. Ultimately because I loved my body, I knew I had to do something different to care for it. The change in how I physically feel has been amazing. No more knee issues. I can walk and run and hike to my heart's content. I can (kind of :lol:) keep up with my toddler niece. I did a cartwheel! My blood pressure has dropped. I can sprint up and down the stairs. I have so much more energy, and love being able to use my body in ways I wasn't able to before.

    Don't worry if it seems slow, if you mess up, if other people lose faster than you, if you spend the next three weeks eating ALL THE HALLOWEEN CANDY (who, me??). Just keep coming back every day, look at everything as a learning opportunity, and adjust as you go. You'll do great!! :heart:
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    Good Sunday to everyone ☘️🌸🌻
    New to the group. This is the group I have been looking for bc I have over 90lbs to lose. I have lost 13.5lbs so far. A1c dropped to prediabetic range. Moving in the right direction.
    I’ve always considered myself a proud big girl! Today, this weight is hard to carry around. My self esteem is low and, this is the hardest hurdle yet. Mind over Matter, so for me to get my mind over the weight, sore ankles, aching knees, diabetes, failed relationships with ex’s and friends...to combat it in a matter of fact way is difficult. To say the least.
    I tried therapy. Complete waste of time. I’m told to look up YouTube videos on visualization or meditate. So I’m going to skip the obvious and seek expensive therapy.
    If money was no object, i would hire an trainer to come to my home. And work me out 5 days a week. And have one of those food delivery services that follow your calorie count.
    I know it’s best to do this by myself, but I think the support of a group would help.
    Looking through some other groups people are losing 20lbs. I WISH! 😄🙃

    Please reach out. Comment. Gently. And I promise to return the same!

    BordeauxBee

    Hi @BordeauxBee,

    Welcome to LL.

    Great job on the 13.5 pounds.

    Even though I started this group I can claim very little credit to how great it is. The people here are amazing. There is something to be said for people who have a better understanding of where you are, where you have been, and where you are going. We are big enough now that there is a reasonable chance that even if I do not understand something you are going through someone else will.

    I appreciate that the people who have only ever had 20 pounds to lose have their own set of problems. I even firmly believe that many of them can give great advice to those with far more to lose. But they will miss things. When I hear someone with 90 to lose talking about exercise the first thing I think of is make sure you take care of your joints. I know because my knees are in pretty bad shape.

    Also during my time I noticed that there was not a lot of guidance/information for people with a larger amount to lose. I searched and searched. It seems that people that started as heavy as I did were expected to immediately consider weight loss surgery.

    I also noticed that I was one of the few vocal really large people in the MFP community. When other people with large amounts to lose would show up for help I realized I needed to interact with that person. But they never stayed so I never knew what happened. That bothered me. I cared about these people. They were "my people".

    I knew the chance of this group succeeding was a very long shot. MFP has probably 10,000 user formed groups and most of them either never made it to 3 user or 10 posts or they did well for a short time and then died.

    It didn't die and now you are here. I am hopeful you stick around and share your good days and bad ones with us. Let us celebrate the good ones and rally around you during the bad ones.

    Remember that perfection is not a necessary component for weight loss. We all just have to be good enough most of the time.
  • BordeauxBee
    BordeauxBee Posts: 69 Member
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    NovusDies, I couldn’t have hoped for a better welcome! Thank you so much ☺️
    Happily more of “us” are coming out. I’m here and am ready to be part of the group. Prepared to share.

    With that being said...I have finished off the other half of my 3.1oz box of Snocaps. If it’s not the result of stress that I seek comfort in foods or portions not within diet boundaries. It is hormones. The uncomfortableness of the emotions are like, just give it what it wants. Eat some chocolate or some French fries and regain your sanity.

    When it comes to hormone cravings they seem to just creep up on me. I don’t realize that I am pacifying a hormonal temper tantrum with cheap chocolate till I’m halfway through the box. Normally, I keep my favorite 80% dark chocolate on hand, but since the pandemic I can not find my favorite brand.

    I know I have to work on this 😔. Progress over perfection. Hopefully, I will resolute this soon.
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    NovusDies, I couldn’t have hoped for a better welcome! Thank you so much ☺️
    Happily more of “us” are coming out. I’m here and am ready to be part of the group. Prepared to share.

    With that being said...I have finished off the other half of my 3.1oz box of Snocaps. If it’s not the result of stress that I seek comfort in foods or portions not within diet boundaries. It is hormones. The uncomfortableness of the emotions are like, just give it what it wants. Eat some chocolate or some French fries and regain your sanity.

    When it comes to hormone cravings they seem to just creep up on me. I don’t realize that I am pacifying a hormonal temper tantrum with cheap chocolate till I’m halfway through the box. Normally, I keep my favorite 80% dark chocolate on hand, but since the pandemic I can not find my favorite brand.

    I know I have to work on this 😔. Progress over perfection. Hopefully, I will resolute this soon.

    @BordeauxBee

    It is funny you characterize it as a tantrum. I often view my battle with my inner child. My child wants what it wants now. He wants food pleasure. He doesn't care that in constant excess he will leave me with a life that is so disabled that food pleasure is one of the few remaining pleasures I am left with. That is where I ended up.

    Have you ever tried to explore how food became your "medicine"? Sometimes our food habits come from parents or other people in our lives. It doesn't help that we live in places where "comfort food" is such a common thing to say and to believe. I suppose you know that eating is a placebo. Funny thing about placebos is that they do work and there have been studies in which people given the placebo were actually told what it was and it still worked for some. The unfortunate thing about this placebo is that there is collateral damage.

    Seems like your battle will be on two fronts. Minimizing the initial problem while also finding a healthier alternative to calm the storm. I wish I were trained to help. I can really only give high level ideas of things to try.

    One of the things most of us have in common is that we struggle keeping the autopilot off. Eating is necessity, an instinct, and a habit. The autopilot is a well rehearsed repetition of stimuli that is normally followed by food. If I sense a situation that normally involves food my autopilot kicks in and says "You don't need to divert mental resources for this, I know what to do" and it finds food. That situation could be hunger, craving, something you see on TV or on your counter, a time of day, boredom, stress, illness, excitement, hormones, a friend coming over, and the list goes on. You might be in the car and see that you are in the kitchen and even eating food but you are not really in the drivers seat. You are on your smartphone. Because eating is a necessity and an instinct eating food habits are formed very quickly and establishing habits that control eating are not. Initially those new habits can be quite uncomfortably and unsettling.

    My point in all this is to look for battles you can win. Sometimes we focus too much on the hard one to overcome we don't always realize that 10 easier ones are holding us back more. We all have multiple food cues. I am not certain I will ever even identify all of mine. I have been feeding myself since I was about 12. That is 38 years of habit formation. For all I know if I see a particular kind of tree it might make me want to eat a doughnut... I don't know. I do know some of them and some we all have in common like if you leave something you enjoy eating where it can be seen easily you will want to eat it. You don't have to eat it but you will want to eat it. When you divert mental energy to resist the urge you are weakening yourself and you may need that mental energy later. I think we all have a finite amount of discipline. While it does replenish itself it is not immediate. I need to take steps to avoid using my discipline unnecessarily so that when it is necessary (and it always will be) I am not worn down.
  • BordeauxBee
    BordeauxBee Posts: 69 Member
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    As always, well put!

    Growing up, I was a daddy’s girl. I was always asking to tag along with him. We went to restaurants sometimes and some mornings we’d have a great breakfast. My earliest memories of munching with my pops, I was sitting in a booster seat at the kitchen table 😆.

    On the other hand. Anytime while we was out, if I seen a Barbie or toy. He would buy it for me. No questions, no comprise. I didn’t turn into a shopaholic. Never been accused of seeking attention.

    Growing up I was the only chunky one at home. My mom had a little weight but some would describe it as “carrying it well”.

    Everyone has a vice. As I got older, food became mine.

    My solution is to try to keep healthy alternatives in the house. With this pandemic going on I try to limit my time outside. Therefore, the cabinets and the fridge might be light on nonessentials.

    Happily, I ordered delivery but it was a salad 🥗. Lol, a $17 salad. Falafel. My nutritionist said no to falafel because it fried. Cut me break! It isn’t everyday or week or month that I have falafel. 😝

    But I hear you NovusDies, you don’t want to undo your progress by giving in. Learning food cues may be a little hard. I know of the one. I shared it with a dietitian once for help with it and she laughed in my face.

    Yesterday I read how the group was mentally preparing for Thanksgiving. What they would or wouldn’t eat. Their plans to not over eat! That was incredibly helpful.

    Thank you NovusDies

    -BordeauxBee



  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    As always, well put!

    Growing up, I was a daddy’s girl. I was always asking to tag along with him. We went to restaurants sometimes and some mornings we’d have a great breakfast. My earliest memories of munching with my pops, I was sitting in a booster seat at the kitchen table 😆.

    On the other hand. Anytime while we was out, if I seen a Barbie or toy. He would buy it for me. No questions, no comprise. I didn’t turn into a shopaholic. Never been accused of seeking attention.

    Growing up I was the only chunky one at home. My mom had a little weight but some would describe it as “carrying it well”.

    Everyone has a vice. As I got older, food became mine.

    My solution is to try to keep healthy alternatives in the house. With this pandemic going on I try to limit my time outside. Therefore, the cabinets and the fridge might be light on nonessentials.

    Happily, I ordered delivery but it was a salad 🥗. Lol, a $17 salad. Falafel. My nutritionist said no to falafel because it fried. Cut me break! It isn’t everyday or week or month that I have falafel. 😝

    But I hear you NovusDies, you don’t want to undo your progress by giving in. Learning food cues may be a little hard. I know of the one. I shared it with a dietitian once for help with it and she laughed in my face.

    Yesterday I read how the group was mentally preparing for Thanksgiving. What they would or wouldn’t eat. Their plans to not over eat! That was incredibly helpful.

    Thank you NovusDies

    -BordeauxBee



    Food cues can be bizarre. I would have no problem laughing at some of mine. I would not appreciate if others laughed unless I was inviting them to laugh with me. Yes old Columbo reruns make me want to eat chili. That one is not really a problem since chili is usually manageable calories. It is the cornbread that is the problem...

    I am not a fan of arbitrary rules. Is there a specific reason you should not eat fried foods? I mean I know they are higher in calories and can make budgeting that day a little more difficult but I have never stopped eating fried foods. I just don't eat them nearly as often.

    All the food I have eaten while losing weight has been healthy. It just hasn't all been conventionally healthy. When I tell myself I can't have something, even if it is something I don't normally want, then I want it more. By managing my cravings and having treats I improved my sustainability. This means the treats greased the wheels for my weight loss. This means that I owe some of my weight loss and my drastically improved health to treats. This makes treats healthy.

    The only place that does not work is if it is food I struggle to moderate. Then I have to suck it up.

    I like your idea of reviewing the habits and thought processes of people trying to figure out what flexible means to them. The holidays are a tricky time and it usually demands the most flexibility. We probably all have someone who will be standing there with hopeful eyes holding out a plate of something we can't really afford calorie-wise hoping we will tell them how great it is and confirm it by eating an entire portion. Sure most of the time we have to say no but geez... those hopeful eyes... it is the holidays. Of course a good plan on paper doesn't mean a good plan in execution but it is better to try than to just decide you can't control anything.
  • BordeauxBee
    BordeauxBee Posts: 69 Member
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    Hopefully these apps will help with noticing patterns of eating. Currently, there are three apps that I am adding my every move and bite into.

    One day at a time...one day at a time.

    - BordeauxBee 🌺🍀🌸🌼🐝
  • AlexandraFindsHerself1971
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    What I found for myself as a general rule with fried food is that if I'm trying to keep the meal under 600 calories, which I usually am, I can have one thing fried. So I can have a fried chicken sandwich, but I need to have chips with it. If I want to have onion rings, I need to have them with a grilled chicken sandwich. Hamburgers with onion rings, while tasty and a favorite meal, are something that's waiting for maintenance.

    I've largely given up on fried potatoes because they just don't have enough bang for the buck for me, and I'm supposed to be avoiding nightshades anyway; they make my arthritis pain worse. (It's not a 1:1 thing, but I learned through experimentation that if I eat tomato and potato in ordinary amounts for three days, I'll be aching and miserable on the morning of the fourth day for no apparent reason.)

  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    What I found for myself as a general rule with fried food is that if I'm trying to keep the meal under 600 calories, which I usually am, I can have one thing fried. So I can have a fried chicken sandwich, but I need to have chips with it. If I want to have onion rings, I need to have them with a grilled chicken sandwich. Hamburgers with onion rings, while tasty and a favorite meal, are something that's waiting for maintenance.

    I've largely given up on fried potatoes because they just don't have enough bang for the buck for me, and I'm supposed to be avoiding nightshades anyway; they make my arthritis pain worse. (It's not a 1:1 thing, but I learned through experimentation that if I eat tomato and potato in ordinary amounts for three days, I'll be aching and miserable on the morning of the fourth day for no apparent reason.)

    I also avoid having multiple fried things at a meal. My overall menu is generally on the lower fat side so having two fried items can sometimes "unsettle" things. That and it is harder to make it fit in a calorie day and get enough hunger control. I do not find fat satiating. I know some do.