Food...control...the endless loop
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jodibeth5744
Posts: 65 Member
I haven’t posted much but was just looking for some thoughts or support.
10 years ago at the height of the most stressful time in my life (death of both my parents, divorce, becoming single mom to 6 yr old and newborn) I hired a personal trainer and lost 90 pounds. I was still very overweight as I had started at 353 pounds. However, it made me feel in control when my life was out of control.
Fast forward throughout the last ten years-I managed to keep most of that weight off until the last two years or so when I ran into some health issues and found myself comforting myself with food again. This too, would seem a form of control, but in a different way, no?
Now I’m in the middle of buying a house and the process of getting a mortgage and waiting for closing is making me sleepless at night. I lay in bed and what I want to do is go snack on something...which will inherently undo all the good work I do during the days. But it’s that endless searching to control things through comfort. Not sure if I’m explaining best at 2:30 am but was wondering if anyone could relate.
10 years ago at the height of the most stressful time in my life (death of both my parents, divorce, becoming single mom to 6 yr old and newborn) I hired a personal trainer and lost 90 pounds. I was still very overweight as I had started at 353 pounds. However, it made me feel in control when my life was out of control.
Fast forward throughout the last ten years-I managed to keep most of that weight off until the last two years or so when I ran into some health issues and found myself comforting myself with food again. This too, would seem a form of control, but in a different way, no?
Now I’m in the middle of buying a house and the process of getting a mortgage and waiting for closing is making me sleepless at night. I lay in bed and what I want to do is go snack on something...which will inherently undo all the good work I do during the days. But it’s that endless searching to control things through comfort. Not sure if I’m explaining best at 2:30 am but was wondering if anyone could relate.
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jodibeth5744 wrote: »I haven’t posted much but was just looking for some thoughts or support.
10 years ago at the height of the most stressful time in my life (death of both my parents, divorce, becoming single mom to 6 yr old and newborn) I hired a personal trainer and lost 90 pounds. I was still very overweight as I had started at 353 pounds. However, it made me feel in control when my life was out of control.
Fast forward throughout the last ten years-I managed to keep most of that weight off until the last two years or so when I ran into some health issues and found myself comforting myself with food again. This too, would seem a form of control, but in a different way, no?
Now I’m in the middle of buying a house and the process of getting a mortgage and waiting for closing is making me sleepless at night. I lay in bed and what I want to do is go snack on something...which will inherently undo all the good work I do during the days. But it’s that endless searching to control things through comfort. Not sure if I’m explaining best at 2:30 am but was wondering if anyone could relate.
You did a great job explaining it. I have been batting around a thread idea about this topic for a couple of days.
I was going through a cultural intelligence course that did its best to thread the needle on being culturally aware and creating negative stereotypes. The professor, knowing this is a tricky subject, called it "smart stereotypes" and admonished that understanding what might be cultural does not make it individual and to use this information to be aware of its possibilities not as a label.
When the Japanese culture was covered the professor went over the strict decorum one might expect in business deals but there was one exception. It is quite common to not just drink with a business associate but get full on drunk. The professor surmised that this departure from strict behavior was most likely an outlet. In other words if you lived a life of heavy control you might need a place to "let your hair down" and alcohol is a way to accomplish it.
With that said none of the Japanese people I know even drink or at least allow it to be known they drink and I have never been to Japan.
However the theory made sense and it also makes sense in a world in which we practice a lot of self-denial that food can be a place to "let loose".
The problem is that the pleasure and fulfillment that food brings if done excessively it steals in other areas. Carrying around a lot of excessive weight makes a lot of things harder and dampens our mood when it does.
We are wired to seek pleasure and avoid pain and discomfort. This is why we overreact to cravings and hunger and additionally eat for comfort.
Trying to find a balance is something we all have to do. There is nothing wrong with getting some pleasure/comfort from food but using it as a crutch is obviously problematic.
One of the things I like to tell myself when I feel my awareness slipping is that "Food is future poop." That simple thing reminds me that the pleasure of food is fleeting. It is in fact, VERY fleeting. Often by the time you swallow it is done. It also has a double meaning because the poop is not just literal but figurative if it craps up your life. It reminds me of saying "A moment on the lips and a lifetime on the hips." I do not like that saying because it is too pessimistic about the chances of weight loss.
There are people who subscribe to the notion that food should only be sustenance. They believe that adding flavor to food and enjoying it is bad. Food should only serve its basic purpose which is to supply energy to live and move. Anyone reading my posts should, by now, know that I do not like extremes. However, I do think there is something to learn here. It comes back to my 80/20 philosophy. I don't hate anything I eat. I do enjoy it but I could enjoy some of it more if I added more butter, cheese, etc. I don't do that because of the calories. So I try to see most of my food as sustenance and a small portion of it as fun/pleasure/treat. That is the balance I use. I call it 80/20 but I do not measure anything that specifically. It is just a mindset.
I have more thoughts on this subject but this post is already so long I will break it up.
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For this post I will discuss one of the ways I gained so much weight and how it relates to this subject.
Like many people I grew up believing that delicious food made events better. A holiday meal or eating out a bunch on vacations was just so great.
Like many humans I came to think that if some was good... more must be better... right? To make a long story shorter this philosophy ended with me trying to make weekends "special" with food. Then when it came to holidays there was even more pressure to make it specialER and of course it all falls apart.
I have come to realize that if you try to make ordinary eating special then it is just ordinary eating. It just happens to be ordinary eating with a lot of calories.
I believe the same is true of comfort and pleasure food. I believe in rare occasions comfort food can actually bring comfort. But if you eat comfort food continuously it is just normal eating and I think we fool ourselves if we believe otherwise. Same thing is true of eating for pleasure.
Why?
It is the same thing we have heard our entire lives. The only way to fully appreciate a pretty day is to go bad weather days. Comfort, special, and pleasure eating only really works if it is rare. If it is done regularly it is diluted into normal.
The key is awareness. We have a bad tendency to eat on autopilot. We feel hunger, craving, boredom, stressed, etc and we eat without being completely in the moment. Sometimes we barely even register what we have eaten... at least I do that. This is one of the reasons I also encourage practicing some mindful eating to slow yourself down. I do not think it is possible, at least for me, to practice mindful eating for every bite I eat but I need to slow down for treat and higher calorie foods.
Prelogging helps build awareness. It interrupts the autopilot because there is a step between cognition and ingestion. Any step will do it as your need to prelog may decline as you get a good calorie routine. Another good idea is to somehow make eating higher calorie food harder by putting it somewhere inconvenient.
The other thing that helps awareness is to keep challenging notions of comfort, pleasure, control through food, etc when you have them. You have to dispute yourself and that can take some discipline because at the end of the day we really want any excuse to eat what we want in the quantity we want it. We have to keep reminding ourselves of the long term price we pay for pleasure or relief that is very fleeting.8 -
@NovusDies thank you for all the insight. You did a much better job of understanding the complexity of what I was feeling than I was able to verbalize.
I do agree that prelogging food does give that interrupt that helps make one more mindful. I have logged my food for 9 years now, but have noticed that on days where I eat “bad” I consciously stop tracking. This used to be by physically closing and putting away my food journal that sat on my counter to now ignoring that my app exists. Last night went I wrote, I went for a replacement behavior-instead of getting up to eat, I sat and actually shared my feelings.
The reference you make to the different cultures is extremely interesting-especially with the drinking. It’s something that I want to think about and digest more, no pun intended.2 -
jodibeth5744 wrote: »@NovusDies thank you for all the insight. You did a much better job of understanding the complexity of what I was feeling than I was able to verbalize.
I do agree that prelogging food does give that interrupt that helps make one more mindful. I have logged my food for 9 years now, but have noticed that on days where I eat “bad” I consciously stop tracking. This used to be by physically closing and putting away my food journal that sat on my counter to now ignoring that my app exists. Last night went I wrote, I went for a replacement behavior-instead of getting up to eat, I sat and actually shared my feelings.
The reference you make to the different cultures is extremely interesting-especially with the drinking. It’s something that I want to think about and digest more, no pun intended.
@jodibeth5744
I am glad I managed to hit close to what you were thinking. There are many twists and turns to this which is why I was trying to figure out how to start a thread about it.
You seem to be in a struggle with your inner child more than your awareness. When you choose not to log you are willingly handing over the eating reigns to the kid within. You are trying to turn off your awareness and the lie you are telling yourself is that it is possible. After 9 years of logging you are still aware but it is probably like trying not to see something. It comes into view and you turn your head, mentally, hoping that if it is only in your peripheral vision you can more easily ignore it.
I am not saying "lie" with a judgmental tone. When I was trying to put my alcohol genie back in the bottle and reestablish moderation I realized that I lied to myself A LOT. I had to finally realize that it was an immature aspect of my nature holding me back and that I wanted it to win on the nights I had something to drink. I would often think I was battling it out but that was a mental show I put on to help keep me in denial. I decided in advance which side to give the knife and which side to give the gun. Sure there was a fight but it was rigged. I should stop and say that my habit of drinking more than I should was habit not addiction. People that are addicted have a different fight on their hands. I was fortunate that my drinking situation was still on this side of alcoholism.
I am also not suggesting that this is easily solvable. These are complicated issues.
The possible answer for now may be in mitigation. When dealing with these type of things the mistake can be looking for a clean answer that wraps everything up in a nice equation. That is the all or nothing thinking that gets us into trouble (especially me). I am a big believer in compromise and trying to establish boundaries when all out victory may not even be necessary. Remember that perfection is not needed. We just need to be good enough. So I suggest possibly placing some limits on the "journal hiding" and even some time frames for allowing it to happen. It would be helpful if you never allowed off book behavior for more than 24 hours straight and decided to possibly give yourself a day every 6 weeks or so. When the day does come around inject some other rules like forcing yourself to eat a certain servings of fruits and vegetables that day. Those are just suggestions and for all I know I am completely off base here and if I am I apologize.3 -
My highest weight was 425. In January when I got serious about changing my life I weighed 372. Now ar the beginning of July I've lost 76# down to 296. We've traveled some of the same roads.
I know I'm going to have a snack at night. It's who I am, so I budget it into my daily food planning by looking ahead to what I'll have for my night time snack & budget that into my food plan.
Maybe something like that would work for you.
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@rockconner Yes, that is a good idea...over the years that kind of planning has helped me with an all or nothing mentality. For example, at one point I felt as if I wanted some chips I was off the boat. But over the years I have learned that some days just have chips, so I log them and move on. If you don’t mind me asking, what made you get serious about your health?1
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@NovusDies
I wanted to revisit this thread to say thank you for all of your insight on the day that I posted.
The issue that I posted was something I was not dealing with in the moment, it was something that I can recall back to my 20s and realizing for the first time that I needed to lose weight. At that point I had joined weight watchers, and they had a daily points allowance, and I would just stop tracking my points for the day and “start over” tomorrow. This mentality led to no accountability every single night. That was 20 years ago.
I was scared to post what I did, as I’ve never put a voice to my problem. When I read your responses, they angered me.
At 41, I know myself well enough to know that when someone sparks my anger (rare) they have usually spoken a hard truth to me. Anger, often, is a cover for pain.
Thankfully having that angry feeling gave me something to work with and explore in myself. The analogy of handing over the reigns to my inner child, again interesting-I’ve been on my own since I was 14 and have often had to examine this topic because I started “adulting” much sooner than the norm (at least in this modern society).
So mostly I want to say “I appreciate you”, for starting this group, and taking the time to give well thought out responses to the members. Your insight gave me the time to examine my own problem, and to help start put peace where discord stood.
Ironically, I’ve had a few major life events that are very stressful since this exchange, and only once found myself in the mindset of “stopping”. I instead tracked the meal I had in front of me and found that not only was it totally fine, it was well within my goals for the day. An interesting reminder to the inner self that I wasn’t giving up on myself at the moment but rather the fact that I had the capability to stay through the problem and see it through.
The process is so much more than the food.
Again, I thank you 🙏3 -
@jodibeth5744
I was forced into maturity at a very young age and it has always been a source of pride. The realization that it was my inner child (for lack of better terminology) that was the root of my drinking in excess of what I (the adult part) thought was appropriate or what fit in my calories definitely did not sit well with me. It made me angry at myself.
My stance on it has softened over time. I realize that wise people do foolish things, smart people do stupid things, and mature people definitely do childish things. It also seems to me that there are times when it is helpful to be childish as long as there is adult oversight. That is where I have landed on food for the moment. The kid can have a few moments like holidays and vacations but there are now a few rules and limitations.
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For this post I will discuss one of the ways I gained so much weight and how it relates to this subject.
Like many people I grew up believing that delicious food made events better. A holiday meal or eating out a bunch on vacations was just so great.
Like many humans I came to think that if some was good... more must be better... right? To make a long story shorter this philosophy ended with me trying to make weekends "special" with food. Then when it came to holidays there was even more pressure to make it specialER and of course it all falls apart.
I have come to realize that if you try to make ordinary eating special then it is just ordinary eating. It just happens to be ordinary eating with a lot of calories.
I believe the same is true of comfort and pleasure food. I believe in rare occasions comfort food can actually bring comfort. But if you eat comfort food continuously it is just normal eating and I think we fool ourselves if we believe otherwise. Same thing is true of eating for pleasure.
Why?
It is the same thing we have heard our entire lives. The only way to fully appreciate a pretty day is to go bad weather days. Comfort, special, and pleasure eating only really works if it is rare. If it is done regularly it is diluted into normal.
The key is awareness. We have a bad tendency to eat on autopilot. We feel hunger, craving, boredom, stressed, etc and we eat without being completely in the moment. Sometimes we barely even register what we have eaten... at least I do that. This is one of the reasons I also encourage practicing some mindful eating to slow yourself down. I do not think it is possible, at least for me, to practice mindful eating for every bite I eat but I need to slow down for treat and higher calorie foods.
Prelogging helps build awareness. It interrupts the autopilot because there is a step between cognition and ingestion. Any step will do it as your need to prelog may decline as you get a good calorie routine. Another good idea is to somehow make eating higher calorie food harder by putting it somewhere inconvenient.
The other thing that helps awareness is to keep challenging notions of comfort, pleasure, control through food, etc when you have them. You have to dispute yourself and that can take some discipline because at the end of the day we really want any excuse to eat what we want in the quantity we want it. We have to keep reminding ourselves of the long term price we pay for pleasure or relief that is very fleeting.
A good read for this morning!2 -
So much insight, wisdom and self-knowledge in this thread...from both Novus and the OP.4
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Thank you, Connie for bringing this thread to the forefront....and Novus, for writing it.
I think that "tolerance" might also roll into this.
Tolerance"A person may develop tolerance to a drug when the drug is used repeatedly. For instance, when morphine or alcohol is used for a long time, larger and larger doses must be taken to produce the same effect. Usually, tolerance develops because metabolism of the drug speeds up (often because the liver enzymes involved in metabolizing drugs become more active) and because the number of sites (cell receptors) that the drug attaches to or the strength of the bond (affinity) between the receptor and drug decreases..."
From https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/home/drugs/factors-affecting-response-to-drugs/tolerance-and-resistance-to-drugs which I just looked up because I couldn't remember the term "tolerance" - I'm sure there are many many sources to read about this concept.
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Having one of those "when am I going to learn" days
Had my final physio appointment today! woohoo! My shoulder/arm is at about 75% now...will keep improving for the next 5 months hopefully! Surgeon signed off on me a couple of weeks ago - today the physiotherapist did the same (with a very much reduced set of exercised to keep up ??? forever???).
The way the day worked out I ended up in Dundas - a small town feeling area just outside of Hamilton, with a 45 minute wait for the bus home - right behind the bus stop was the "Village" bakery. It was noon, I had only had clementines and raspberries so far today. I broke down and bought a small raspberry scone. Not bad considering all that was there.
At the end of my hour long bus ride was the No Frills - so I figured I would pick up my field of greens mix, some tomatoes, yogurt, all the good stuff. But, by the time I was in there, I was pretty hungry and carbs triggered by that scone.
A six pack of glazed donuts later - I'm on a sugar high that will no doubt have me crashing soon. I'm writing this and wondering why it takes so long to figure this stuff out on a "real" level.
Thinking of what I should/could have done differently. Best idea so far is I should have enjoyed my 45 minutes in Dundas and had a proper lunch. I noticed several vegetarian restaurants. I could have had a decent meal at half the calories and enjoyed myself and felt like I had had a decadent experience.
For some reason I didn't plan anything. Which left me vulnerable to the "oh a scone won't hurt" thinking. And a scone wouldn't have hurt - but a scone on an empty belly that is going to stay empty for awhile is a dangerous thing. How did that little bit of data escape me at the moment?????
Writing this has helped. It gave me the space to think of what I could/should have done and reminded me to maybe plan for next time or at least be better prepared to handle it if I haven't "planned."2 -
At least you're taking the time for reflection and analysis...
Another thing that may help in future is toting a satisfying snack with you...and by 'satisfying' I mean something more calorie dense than fruit, something with carbs, fat and protein, such as a PB sandwich, a homemade protein flapjack or a Clif bar. Or maybe some nuts and dried apricots...something chewy, satiating. Bitter experience has taught me never to go anywhere without something of that kind in my bag or pocket....
Another observation. Much as I love fruit, there's no way I'd leave the house to run errands just on a breakfast of clementines and raspberries. Where's the protein? The fat? To keep you feeling fuller for longer... I know that's your normal breakfast, but if you have mid-morning energy depletion at home, you can grab something to tide you over. But if that energy depletion happens outside the home, you're much more likely to fall prey to impulse snacking.
So on a day I was running errands, I'd have a more hearty breakfast...and still tote a chewy protein/fat/carb snack (and a bottle of water) for emergencies...
Finally, a thing I've learned from cycling...you need to fuel pre-emptively, before you start to feel hungry and thirsty, not wait until you get the hunger knock. Prevention of energy depletion is better than cure...
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Yes, yes, yes, Bella. I'm normally okay until about 1 or 2 which is my weird version of intermittent fasting...lol...it was that freaking scone! Or maybe the quaint village atmosphere? Doesn't matter what it was - it was the unexpected - that I have to start being prepared for.3
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When did I start talking like a scientist or athlete, instead of a normal person?
Not hunger...energy depletion. Not eating...fueling.
I sound really pompous...
Still, pomposity aside, there is a material difference between feeling hungry and feeling depleted of energy. One is bearable, the other is hugely uncomfortable and, if taken to the extreme during an exercise session, can lead to dizziness, poor coordination, nausea, shaking and brain fog. Once experienced, never forgotten....4 -
Bella - you don't sound pompous - ever.
I understand that sensation you describe - have felt it on occasion. Yesterday was more binge behaviour - triggered by that white flour and sugar fix - with a side of "it's just about time to eat." That type of thing has always been the bane of my existence. Busy busy busy...pure carbs to keep going...many calories but never full never nourished.
I am always grateful for your posts and your sharing of experience. And your word choices almost make me feel more athletic just reading them
I like how you put a different, biological spin on food and fueling. Is a good reminder of what we are doing. 3 -
Laurie i disagree with you.
You are barking up the wrong tree and blaming everything (the scone, the carbs the donuts) except pt the real issue which was that you allowed too much of a proximate deficit to build up!
And partially I agree with Splatty McSplat that you had a light, relatively no staying power, breakfast.
Same here as McSplatty says. I either grab two clif bars (which is suboptimal for me compared to eating a lesser Caloric amount of real food, but convenient and fast) when I'm heading out. Or factor that I'm going to have to hit something worth sub 400 calories soon or closer to 7/800 calories if I leave it too late. Or I will end up cutting activity short
You yourself said that if you had eaten the scone and then a normal veg meal not too long later you would have been ok
It is not an argument that you should have scones. Sure they may be more of a treat for your as compared to lentils.
But you're not doomed because you ate them and you might have not even been WANTING to eat one had you not let your "proximate deficit" grow too big.
More often than not when I want quick energy there is a reason I want it. And you don't have to be an athlete to have the need!
During loss I was mostly making sure to not let hunger become too much.
At maintenance when trying to balance eating out more often and larger meals, less intake to balance more later has come into play.
It is harder to manage. And I believe it would be harder for me to manage if I was also trying to end up at a consistent deficit. I can pack away a lot of cookies! Less fish and chips. And even less bunnies 😃3 -
Yikes I hope you guys understand me better than I can!😡
During faster loss I was likely to eat more frequent small snacks to avoid becoming too hungry.
When trying to balance larger meals went harder on keep it low till large meal and in general it works but need to pay quite a bit of attention and I can see where it would have the potential to detail if trying to apply a consistent deficit. That is re me today. Our reactions change over time and even more so btw people2 -
I understand you, PAV. And the need
But I really think that my primary motivation for eating that scone when I did was - I was just standing there smelling the delicious smells coming from a bakery about an hour before my first real meal of the day. And as soon as I ate it, its deliciousness and the proximity to meal time after smelling that smell for 20 minutes created a perfect storm. The sweetness of a Clif bar may have had the same effect.
I should have either skipped the scone and instead had a meal there in "town," or not eaten anything until I got home and eaten on my regular schedule, or maybe best of all - had a meal there (just a bit ahead of schedule) - and then a scone when I was well satisfied.
I have spent far too much of my life surviving on just scones/toast/quick bites of high carb / quick energy foods. And unless I'm in a really very well controlled situation there is a high risk of them triggering a binge. Eating anything along those lines is not something that I can be casual about - if that makes sense?3 -
I am certainly not a poster child for “How to Eat Right “ recently but when I WAS eating healthy and swimming 5 or 6 days a week, I had to refuel after exercising or I was not only starving, I was exhausted!….but I get that about smelling stuff baking!…the good smells make you want the food even if you aren’t hungry!….I think when you are overweight and battling the bulge, there is this fear that we MIGHT get hungry!…I learned early on in this journey to always have a package of almonds, a snack bar, and a string cheese in my purse “Just In Case” I get hungry…sometime having that snack ready still doesn’t have a chance next to a fresh hot donut!3
