Thoughts, Epiphanies, Insights, & Quotables
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Oh I so feel your pain Bella. At 5’1-1/2 I’m in the same calorie range as you. I used to be a bit taller (and younger!). My aging arthritic body screams if I over exercise. There is no leeway with the calories. It’s a daily.1
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Posted to Chris in the qsmya or whatever that medication is thread my stream of consciousness!!😝 Long as usual.
What do you kids think of the general direction of my spouting as spouted over there? 😵💫🤔🤯🤷♂️0 -
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Huh? Main forums? I've seen you there before!0
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Will try to find you - I don't venture there often.
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@PAV8888 I found the post you're talking about and read the whole thread (even the 2015 entries to get an idea of what the discussion was about).
Your reply was incredibly insightful and helpful, but I fear that it's not what the OP wanted to hear.
Several paragraphs hit the nail on the head for me, and I've copied them here because they're issues that impact each and every person that needs help from this 'Larger Losers' group.Did they try losing weight before? Did they have any success? Where and how did their attempt(s) fail? Did they try more than once? Same way or different? What was different? How did that derail? Were there any commonalities? Are there conditions where more success was found than not? When/how did the fails occur? Are there general conditions that impede loss or promote regain or continuous gain? Is the person entering this after a period of continuous gain (how much, how long?) Regain (how much how long)? Do they have health or physical impediments? Do they have unaddressed psychological impediments? Where is it likely that they should direct their efforts in order to succeed?
...after some hesitant starts due to uncertainty that it was even possible, I decided that EVERYTHING was on the table FOR EXAMINATION as to whether and how it should be modified so that I could end up with a life that was more LIKELY to promote a lower weight.
Financial, entertainment, relatives and interpersonal relationships, personal likes and dislikes and preferences.
Every single sacred cow that you decide to not (or inadvertently or deliberately fail to) consider for modification and do not modify even though it is still promoting the weight level you don't like is a tiny tug against where you would like to find yourself in the future.
...I made the effort to additively make a large number of incremental changes-- while keeping very few other things off the chopping block.
You are at point A today. You sort of have to envision yourself slowly getting to point B and how things will morph on the way from A to B to promote your desired calorically neutral balance in terms of expenditure and intakes at point B.
That takes time. And some naval gazing. Or short cuts via professional assistance. Some luck. And some good decision making along the way. Some effort. And a willingness to go with the flow.
I particularly liked your very last sentence (the one I've highlighted in bold). Very witty.
The problem is that to change a life and a set of ingrained habits you need - among other things - contemplation, self-awareness, information, open-mindedness, a willingness to use yourself and your own data as an empirical lab rat, patience, resilience, tenacity, pragmatism, a long-term perspective, adaptability, the courage to face your flaws and demons, a sense of humour, and the ability to sift good quality advice from bad.
In other words, we need an approach that's about as far as you can get from a quick fix. Some folks just aren't ready yet (sometimes are never ready) to do the work. Maybe some of what you said struck home with the OP - I hope so! It certainly hit home with me...3 -
@PAV8888 - I tracked down & read your post too and found it extremely helpful! I actually sat and pondered/journalled some of your provocative, self-reflective questions.
Did it help poster in that thread?? Could've, even should've, but no guarantees. I say - spout away at will!2 -
Have not read yet but looking forward to it2
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THIS IS LONG. PLEASE DON'T FEEL OBLIGED TO READ. It's what I'm mulling over at the moment, and I've set down some of my thoughts in an illogical and haphazard manner below...
Why do people (me included) ditch the tools that were invaluable to them during their progress towards reaching their goals?
I just clicked on the profile of all the people whose success-posts are included on the 'Success Wall of Fame'. Every single poster- without exception - is no longer active on MFP. That's a scary statistic. Truly depressing and scary. And as a study in behaviour, it's really fascinating.
Using myself as a case in point:
I was going great guns....feeling in control....supported by an awesome bunch of people in this group and my other MFP group....reached goal....started on the road to maintenance.....felt sure that I'd belong to this community and its support network until the day they nailed me into my coffin....Famous last words...
One day - I remember it as clear as if it were yesterday - I read an article about how many hours a day people fritter away on social media, and how bad that is, and how much better it would be for one's relationships and one's life in general if one ditched the dependency on one's phone/tablet/laptop and used that wasted time more profitably, to enrich one's life in a myriad dfferent ways. Speak to your loved ones! Read a book! Write a book! Learn a new language! Learn to play a musical instrument! Write someone a proper letter with a pen and paper! Volunteer at the food bank! Grow your own food! Go for a run or a bike ride! Climb a mountain! Travel! Visit a museum! Cure cancer!....
This resonated with me deeply. Already I'd pretty much stopped using Facebook and Twitter, but the one place I knew I spent up to several hours a day was MFP. Logging the food didn't take up too much of my day, but posting to my two groups and checking what everyone else was posting was a serious time commitment. I decided I'd limit my input to an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening, which seemed a reasonable compromise...
...but then the article finished with some killer advice. Go cold turkey on social media immediately. What are you waiting for? No time like the present to make a positive change in your life. Yada yada yada.
So, like a fool, I did. I added up those additional hours ithat I could put to better use, and I completely failed to recognise the very real consequences of such a foolish step. I took account of those 2+ hours a day I could divert into learning sanskrit or playing the balalaika, but I completely overlooked the fact that those 2+ hours a day were a time investment which would pay dividends in the form of healthy habits that might give me 10+ extra years in which to learn sanskirt or play the balalaika.
That's the trouble with advice. It rarely looks at the complete picture.
My experience has got me thinking about how it doesn't take much of a push to drift away from your support networks. Some people do it so easily that you wonder if they were just looking for the first excuse to jump ship. Was that me? Was I just looking for an excuse to take a break, and therefore latched onto the article because it gave me permission to do something that I was hankering to do anyway?
Who knows? I don't think so, because I remember that those first few cold turkey weeks without the daily support were really, really difficult. It felt like losing an arm. But then a pleasing wave of overconfidence washed over me. I could do this by myself! Support was for sissies! It was like saying, "Look ma, no training wheels!".....just before hitting a bump in the road and face-planting onto the asphalt.
Luckily during my 530 days cold-turkey from the community, I didn't completely sever all ties with the MFP platform. I still weighed and logged my food most days (only losing my 1200+ streak on Jan 2nd 2024). I maintained my excel spreadsheet of intake and estimated TDEE, and doggedly logged the weight entries even though they were heading in the wrong direction. I kept exercising.
But for me, the daily support is essential, so I'm so glad I swallowed my pride and came back to the community. I wish I hadn't got lost in the first place, but at least I found my way home.
But why, for so many people who have succeeded at reaching goal, is there this impulse to deliberately strike out alone, and ditch the tools and people that have helped them? What makes people do it? Something's worked for them....they're enormously grateful...then they kick it to the curb.
I'm not talking here about the fly-in/fly-outs. I'm talking here about the folks who were here for the long haul...those who stuck it out through months and years and lost a stack of weight and formed the backbone of the community. The ones who truly internalised how vital the support is, and who said they would never, ever take it for granted. And then one day (like me - sorry!) they just vanish. Never or rarely to be seen again....
Is it hubris? "Look ma, no hands! Oooof!!!!!!!!! Ouch that hurt...."
Is it rebellion against a too-rigid diet and (self-imposed) overly-demanding standards of behaviour?
Is it self-sabotage?
Is it burn-out?
Is it that the familiar seems tedious and novelty seems sexy and exciting?
Is it shame, because they're riding out a rough patch and they don't want to come across as failing?
Is it because they've found better support elsewhere?
I truly hope I've learned my lesson, and never again do something so foolish. But I'm not holding my breath, because sometimes my idiocy and self-sabotage are truly legendary...
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Good question, Bella. I'm glad you are back. This post made me feel much better about my "sticking around" despite actively gaining a tremendous amount of weight this year. I felt like a fake...but at the same time knew if I walked away from this group I would be giving up the dream.
So it seems there are a few lessons we can all learn! Although you gave up the group - you kept up weigh ins and tracking! That is probably why you have had such a small gain?
It's all important. We are all so lucky to have each other. Don't leave us here outside of the covers, Yooly ... and please come back to us Connie ... and Alexandra. I'm so glad you came back, Bella.
Together we are much stronger.2 -
lauriekallis wrote: »This post made me feel much better about my "sticking around" despite actively gaining a tremendous amount of weight this year. I felt like a fake...but at the same time knew if I walked away from this group I would be giving up the dream.
I honestly think that your sticking around is a REALLY BIG DEAL Laurie. It's hard enough to stick around for the long term when everything is rosy and the scale is heading downwards, but to dig deep and stick around when the going gets tough is a whole other level of gumption.
If more people followed your example these groups would be brimming with wisdom and experience and knowledge. Instead, so much of that hard-fought wisdom is lost when the people who earned it just up and leave.
It makes those who stick around even more rare and precious...
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ONION PLAN.
--food logging always no matter what
--food logging before you eat it even better
--"go to food options" that you know will more or less work out. from that yogurt combo to that mcdonald sandwich and everything in between
--limit stupid things: "yes a slice or two of pizza" "dumb-*kitten* having a 12" pizza by yourself" Buy a 48 pack of 28.35g of potato chips but not a 1500g bag of potato chips (crisps for Bella)
--do a few smart things: nuke a bag of veggies and have it ready to go or use in whatever you're making or your own equivalent of daily smart things
--scale jumping on
--activity choices that (have) become ingrained.
--activity options that are easy to resume if interrupted
--clothes and belts as a reminder
--involved in community + putting yourself out there. But also a positive feedback of caring and contributing. Caring seems to me to be a transferable attribute 😝
Sorry... was not going to try to articulate the onion plan (aka concentric defenses) and I can't say that my chaotic mind has really ever come up with a full concrete list..
I've sort of more gone along by adding little things here and there:
--pace around while making phone calls.
--don't take a phone calls at desk. Try to make calls during dog walk or when walking to the store.
--walk to the store don't drive unless you have to. etc/
Why onion plan? because at times some many--most--a lot of the things may disappear or fail.
But hopefully some/enough will remain to effect a rescue.
Burn out and confidence (over confidence) are a thing.
Not necessarily even a false thing if things don't change around us.
But things DO change. And we are not necessarily side-swiped by a lack of defenses. But by external event where the remaining defenses at the time don't prove enough to mitigate.
As I have reason to know from the timelines involved (and as is obvious by the stories of so many of us) external events, and in particular mental balance and accumulated stress having to do with health of people around us and ourselves seem to be major drivers of derailments.
Got ta go
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Thank you, Bella.
Oh, PAV. Always the practical one
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@PAV8888 It was your onion plan that helped me only gain back 7kg. Your advice re concentric defences - I took it on board. Hence though some of my defences were easily breached, others held fast. I kept eating the rainbow, kept using the smaller plate, kept drinking the water, kept walking on the spot while stirring my soup and porridge, kept weighing my food, kept walking the dog, kept writing daily entries in my ‘diet’ journal, even when all I ever seemed to be saying was “Another day of excess calories”. It wasn’t enough to stem the tide of weight gain, but it was enough to prevent a tsunami. For that I’m very grateful!3
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Hey all, I had replied to Bella in the other group thread but neglected to here. I find you all to be very mature in your journeys and are very encouraging even when struggling, if that makes sense.
For what it's worth, here is my reply:
"@Bella_Figura, thank you for your thought provoking post and letting us know what happened to you!
This is exactly why my personal slogan for my weightloss/weight management journey now is FOR LIFE (pun intended).
Stopping/starting was not successful in the long term. For me, stopping was definitely tinged with rebellion against my often 'unreasonable-as-a-lifestyle' plan, kicking off the traces so to speak, or just plain fatigue at all the artifice I was employing. I found sheer willpower will carry me about a year, as long as at least some success on the scale was accompanying it, but eventually I could muscle through no longer. I suspect even those reaching their goal weight may all to often see it as done or finished, but I have sadly regained thinking that way, and have finally come to terms with this being a health journey vs simply a temporary diet to accomplish weightloss, hence FOR LIFE."
@PAV8888 - the onion is an apt description for the layers we need to protect ourselves with for sure.2 -
Mature I like it! lol
This is a good group, isn't it, BCLadybug? GOod to have the company of others who have been through it more than once.
Rebellion - I feel that too. Sometimes my bingeing feels like an old, generally well-behaved, well seasoned dog who just refuses to get out of your spot in the bed.
I actually kind of like this mental metaphor - I'm really stubborn so I'm not going to win against if I'm simply slamming my head against my head. Coaxing - some rewards - that might be the ticket.
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After five years in and good weight loss, I’m struggling over 10 pounds I need to get off. Why does this seem harder than the first 💯? Granted I’ve had some health issues that curtailed exercising and some emotional events but still….
I KNOW how to do this and I’m not completely out of control. But it seems two steps forward and three steps back.2 -
Where does the problem lie do you think, Yooly?
I'm guessing you are tracking - and imagine that you are pretty good with that now.1 -
@Yoolypr I've been through this so recently that it's still really raw - the frustration that I felt with myself because I knew what I should be doing, and I had the tools to do it, but I still found every day an uphill battle.
For me I had to strip away all pressure and dial it back to basics - the things that I could do almost effortlessly and on automatic pilot. Those 'autopilot' habits didn't stop me over-eating, but they stopped me over-eating as much as I would otherwise've done.
I knew the number on the scale was climbing - I knew the clothes were getting tighter - but I tried not to hate myself for it, and I tried to accept it pragmatically, as another part of the learning process and part of life's rich tapestry.
Rather than dwelling on the scale, my 'failure' and the awful sense of feeling out of control, I tried to focus on other aspects of the process that gave me genuine pleasure. Like preparing a plate of food that was zinging with colour and vibracy, which gave me a genuine jolt of joy. Like hula-hooping to Marvin Gaye's Lets Get It On, which put a huge smile on my face. Like lying in the tub and marvelling at how far I'd come, rather than bemoaning how much I'd regained. Every day I had just two goals - a) to nourish myself well (physically and emotionally) and 2) to be a little less sedentary, not through 'exercise' but simply through incorporating more NEAT into my day.
Yes, I was still eating too many calories, but I was still mindful...and eventually I got through the bad patch (took 530 days, but I got there in the end!)....and so will you. Hopefully a lot quicker than I did!3 -
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What we trying kind lady? I need one on banging head!!!!1
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Two separate issues the good enough and creep back. You were doing some pull down before Christmas were you not? What was the secret sauce on that?
I don't trust my weight numbers because they are not as clean as they were with daily weight in no matter what
So definitely a tendency to ignore high and over stress lows
In any case at least I'm slowly returning to before dad move unless I derail like last year with his new shenanigans!2 -
Duh! 🙄. I’m TRYING not to just throw up my hands and say this is good enough. And the weight will creep back. So I need to stick with what got me some measure of success.
@Yoolypr have you considered taking a break?
I don't mean a break of the type that many people on the MFP forums take - which is just another term for completely throwing in the towel forever and returning to all the old bad habits in lightning time.
I mean a deliberately-considered, planned, timetabled break for a strictly pre-determined period.
I did this once, and it was a life-saver. Like you I'd been yo-yoing 5lbs for about 6 months and I felt completely demoralised. Every day, the temptation to just pack it all in became just that little bit stronger, because it was mentally enhausting to have to battle constantly. I felt weary to the bone of the whole process of weight loss and maintenance.
Even so, the thought of taking a break was scary. VERY scary, What if it was akin to an alcoholic taking one drink and then never being able to stop again? What if I gained 20lb and couldn't lose them again? What if I opened a Pandora's box that I couldn't close again?
I did it anyway, but I PLANNED it, so that I still felt like I was in CONTROL of the process. It was something I was CHOOSING to do to recharge my mental batteries, it was a POSITIVE decision, not a NEGATIVE lapse in willpower.
These words in capitals were the things I kept reminding myself, because it's important to still retain that feeling of being in control, because once you mentally feel like you've lost control everything gets much, much harder.
My approach was to set a strict timetable. My break started when I got up on XX day, and finished when I went to bed on YY day. I allowed myself 2 whole weeks, which felt like sufficient time to have a mental re-set and give my body a little energy boost, but not so long that I lost touch with the mindset of running a deficit.
I didn't give myself licence to go mad....I still made sensible choices, but I ate around 500 calories a day more than I had been eating up to that point. That way I knew that at worse I'd gain a couple of pounds in the two weeks over what I maybe would've gained anyway through being only half-heartedly on plan.
I also checked in here for support...
For me it worked. The extra calories were lovely - they allowed me to a have a few treats that I'd been denying myself, but in reality I didn't use the 500 additional calories on cakes and sweets, I used them to eat proper food - just a little more than usual.
And by the end of the 14 days I felt re-energised and ready to recommit with renewed vigour and enthusiasm.
Sometimes compromise and pragmatism are the most sensible options. When forcing yourself to stay on plan isn't working well for you at the moment, sometimes you need to be willing to risk a different approach. As long as you do it under controlled conditions, and for a strictly limited period of time, it can be a diet-saver...
Anyway Yooly, whatever you decide to do, good luck with it! It's horrible to struggle - we've all been there! - so I hope something works for you soon and you regain your mojo! Big hugs!3 -
Thank you Bella for your words of wisdom and encouragement. I’m not sure how I’ll get past this funk. But am willing to try….3
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Share more about funk when you feel up to. You did have an eventful year with far too many extra unanticipated stressful and sad trips plus all the happier pre-planned ones. You weren't doing badly through most of that time. Hand issue came about and hit you hard? What's been going on with Yooly?
re: your above statement. I understand the struggle with "this is good enough" vs "not good enough". But where do the "give up" talk and "weight creep back" talk bits come from--other than understandably natural fears of course?
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So many good words here, Yooly. We all support you and care very much about how you are faring. Sometimes you use all your strength being strong through repeated crises ... then when the freaking circus has passed there is little left.2
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I appreciate all the support and kind words. So thoughtful and appreciated 🙏
My funk is - I don’t know? A combination of frustration, loss and anxiety. Some exhaustion too maybe. It’s been a hard year. Lots of sadness but celebration too.
And then there’s the broken wrist and a couple of bruising stumbles and falls. I’m not the most physically graceful person at best. The result has been lots of sedentary time - which calls for soothing snacks, no?
I just got to the point where I asked myself whether at age 76 it’s worth agonizing over a ten pound regain. Can I live with that? Is it a precursor of regaining the other 💯 pounds? How much time in my limited life expectancy do I want to fight this? Then again, my mother and most women in my family lived well into their 90s. What if I have 20 more freaking years ahead of me!!! I want those years to be as good as possible.
I need to get my head back into the game before I can make any progress. But right now my head - and body- are tired.
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Yooly, imo (as a fat person still in need of losing the 100 lbs, mind you) it is NOT worth agonizing over the 10 lbs, unless it means you are uncomfortable in your clothes, etc. Otherwise it is just a number in the scale that is still within range, but on the higher side granted.
You've had a tough year. You are exhausted. Perhaps a break as Bella outlined, but with a longer timeframe (like 3 months, or to June 1st, or something), is a warranted right now? With a firm promise to not creep any higher meantime, but to truly rest, with focus on health mentally and time to regain your strength physically. And thereby stave off a potential full fall from grace. Just my 2 cents!2
