Random Acts of Questioning
Replies
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Yeah, I take the step to km conversion with a large grain of salt. My distances and time duration are taken directly from Strava which measures distance and gradient via GPS (and I also double-checked the distances on Mapometer). It's only trend that I'm really focused on anyway....
Olympian it is then!
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Mapometer? 😹😂 Sounds like something to do with your μάπα which would be Greek for ta gueule 😹😂😘
Ok, technically your face not your mouth but don't spoil it for me by introducing an Italian mappa! 🤣1 -
psychod787 wrote: »Can we compensate for this AT? I think yes, most of the AT does not come from RMR, but from skeletal muscle fuel efficiency. Basically the muscle burn less energy than would be predicted for a certain motion. One promising way of counter acting it is resistance training. Seems to help counteract this. The next is a higher protein diet while losing and after. Some research shows that RMR stays "normal" after weight loss with a higher protein diet. Walking also might help counteract some of the issues. There might be sensors in the long bones that help our brains determine our size, so walking, or standing might help that as well. As far as the other on hunger and how I think losing weight is best, I will post later.
Dalon I would seriously like to see the rest of it when you get a chance.
RMR AT is the hardest to compensate for. Even if you try to remember to tap your leg. or get up. or this or that or the other. You can't elevate your core temp.
BUT. Dalon help out if I am stating "untruth":
You can bike further, harder, stronger. Even if your super trained and weight reduced thigh muscles are not burning as much as those of a person who had fully fuelled their biking all along.
AND. NOVEL impetus still plays in at a full(er) value. So if you stop biking daily and start rowing for a bit instead and then get back into biking you will have lost some of the adaptation.
BUT
Again.
There is no reason not to try and minimize it in the first place, is there?
AND...
While being respectful and not "silly", and not giving any advantages you can keep for yourself away, let's not give AT infinite power.
It is A concern. But not the end all.
For many of us the problem is not the size of a couple of extra ghirardelli squares a day. The problem is dealing with half jars of nutellas plus fixing if you know what I mean Mr Bean!
And that's hunger plus emotional work and/or coping strategies and techniques.
From what I have read Alec, it does not matter what kind of exercise one does. The adaptation is more of an adaption to a certain calorie burn. The body starts pulling energy being used in "non-essential" body processes. Maybe one of the reasons we see inflammation go down when someone becomes more active. We see evidence of this in athletes. Women who train hard, and men who get down to elite levels of body fat, often see their reproductive hormones plummet. Reproduction is non-essential in times of over stress and lack of available calories. It could also explain why tribes like the Hadza, have very similar TDEE's of a semi-sedentary westerner, even when body comp is taken into account. Those hunter gathers walk 14k+ steps a day. Humans are very efficient at not burning calories. Probably one of the reasons for our success over the years. Heck, even our bipedal motion is more energy efficient than quadrupeds. It seems like there is a curve to energy burn versus a strait line. You never quit burning more energy for more activity, but there is an extreme drop off at a certain point.
As far as how I seen weight loss for the LONG term. I personally think that whatever works for someone is best for them. Me? I prefer to try and work with my hunger and satiety centers. I, for years, had to push away from the table still being very hungry. Most likely due to my want to maintain BF that was non maintainable for my genetic and weight history. As much as it pains me to say it, I think many of us will pay a price for being obese for a long time. So now, I eat a lower energy dense, less processed, higher fiber and protein, lower added sugar and fat, diet. This is allowing me to eat to fullness and seemly to maintain my weight. Maybe a slight trend up, but I still think I have a few pounds to go. The thought of having to live ravenous again is one I will not bare.Bella_Figura wrote: »Right, my mind is churning all this over.
Just for clarity, I'll explain what I think I understand, so that I can be corrected if I'm wrong. This will be long, so for those who can't be bothered to plough through my verbosity, I'll summarise in one sentence at the end.
The long, verbose version:
Identical twins Ada and Bella are separated at birth, and Ada is adopted by the Outdoorsy-Adventurer family, while Bella is adopted by the Couch-Potato family. Ada spends her infancy, childhood and youth kayaking down the Amazon, trekking in the Himalayas, mountain-biking across Australia, and dog-sledding to the poles. Food is fuel. Dieting never crosses her mind. This behaviour continues into adulthood, and Ada maintains her lean physique and her splendid metabolism.
Bella spends her infancy, childhood and youth leisure hours sitting on a sofa reading and watching telly. She and her family get great joy and pleasure from their shared buckets of KFC and tins of Quality Street. They create happy memories from shared feasts and indulgent treats. Food is ever-present and has great emotional resonance. Exercise is shunned. Periodically Bella and her family try to lose some excess weight, but the pull of food is too strong. This behaviour continues into adulthood, and Bella gets larger and larger despite her efforts to diet. However, after one particularly determined episode of weight management, Bella finally reaches a healthy weight.
At this point, Ada and the newly-slim Bella are joyfully re-united and decide to live together for what remains of their lives. They're inseparable, and Bella adopts Ada's outdoorsy lifestyle. They do everything together. Both weigh 125 lbs.
Right from the get-go, they notice some differences. They spend every waking minute together, doing identical activity and ingesting exactly the same food and drink, but Ada's weight remains stable while Bella's weight begins to creep upwards. Furthermore, Ada never seems to think about food, but Bella thinks about it all the time, almost to the point of obsession. She feels constantly hungry, and there's temptation everywhere. At mealtimes, though she stops eating at the same time as Ada, she never feels satiated. It's a constant battle not to sneak off and eat a bag of donuts. She also feels constantly cold and tired.
After some months of experimentation, they calculate that for Bella's weight to remain stable, she needs to eat 500 calories/day fewer than Ada for doing identical activity....and this will be the case for the rest of their lives. And it's likely that she'll always feel more hungry, more tempted, more cold, more tired and less satiated than Ada.
"I can do it!" says Bella, grimly.
"I'll support you!" says Ada, guiltily, wondering if this means she'll never be able to have a bar of chocolate ever again, in case it sends Bella off into a tailspin.
The end....
1 line summary:
For the rest of my life I'll most likely need to live on several hundred calories a day fewer than someone of the same age/height/weight/gender/activity level who has never had a weight problem, and compared to that person I'll also feel more hungry, cold and tired, and less satiated. Forever and Ever. Amen.
Have I understood that right?
If I HAVE understood that right, how does that square with my experience to this point?
To date, I've lost 65lbs, which though not a HUGE sum, is still a pretty hefty amount of weight (31% of my starting body weight).
So shouldn't I have expected this metabolic slow-down to have started already?
Instead, my TDEE is pretty stable...Using SailRabbit to calculate my RMR, depending on which model is used, my RMR theoretically ranges from 1,190 to 1,460 and my TDEE theoretically ranges from 1,695 to 2,080 for my standard activity level (Light jogging or walking 5-7 days per week).
However, at 2,162 cals/day, my TDEE is higher even than that calculated by Cunningham, and hundreds higher if using Mifflin St Jeor, which is widely considered the most accurate estimate.
Against Mifflin St Jeor, my TDEE multiplier is 1.8, i.e. somewhere between 'Hard Labourer' and 'Professional/Olympic Athlete'.
It just doesn't make sense!
When I type my GOAL weight into SailRabbit and just take Mifflin St Jeor as the estimator, using 'hard laborour' as the activity level gives me a TDEE of around 1,869.
I could be wrong, but I think I could live long-term on 1,869 calories a day if I was mindful, motivated and careful to include enough protein and fibre. I think folks like Yooly would think they'd died and gone to heaven if they had a long-term maintenance calorie budget to 1,869.
But the theory of AT suggests I won't have 1,869, right? I may have closer to 1,500... (i.e. my current deficit budget).
But if the theory of AT's true (and I see no reason to disbelieve it)...why am I still losing about 1.48 lbs/week on a calorie budget of 1,500 calories, despite having lost a third of my body weight? Why is my body still being so efficient at burning calories? And will it stop being so efficient (pound for pound) if I push on to goal?
That's what I'm struggling to get my head around....
This is probably accurate. The lady in question might always be a little bit more food focused and "hungry" eating the same diet as her never obese twin. Its not fair, but its probably reality. The sins of our past, will often haunt us into the future. She may have to maintain a slightly higher body fat level to be "normal" living the same lifestyle. Or, she can live a different lifestyle that might help her maintain that "desired" weight she wants. Either decision is ok, but its up to her.
*edit* I would like to add something to the topic of AT. Yes, AT is most likely real, I personally think the evidence for length of weight loss process matters little. Especially in the long term. There are very few studies on the issue. I would also add, does AT really matter? The evidence, so far, does not show that people with "slower" RMR lose less weight and are less likely to maintain it. It shows that adherence to treatment is the greatest indicator for success. Also, does AT even matter if one able to lose weight and maintain it and they are not hungry "most" of the time?1 -
I am amazed at the level of study and scientific analysis you all have done on the topic of loss and maintainability. Positively dazzled!
However at my advanced age I’m choosing not to think long term and charting and graphing. I’ll be good to be successful day to day. Cause who know about tomorrow? You youngins can do the math. 🤓3 -
I am amazed at the level of study and scientific analysis you all have done on the topic of loss and maintainability. Positively dazzled!
However at my advanced age I’m choosing not to think long term and charting and graphing. I’ll be good to be successful day to day. Cause who know about tomorrow? You youngins can do the math. 🤓
I guess its a biproduct of being miserable for years and a slightly neurotic personality that being that way made me. I used to worry about how many calories I got to eat in a day. I no longer look at it in this way. I look at it like, is this food going to fill me up and keep from being "overly" hungry? Yeah, a bit of a 180 from the guy who used to weigh his broccoli to the gram. Humans are not very good at judging how much we eat. Now, those who weigh, measure and record are better at it, but probably still a a 10% or more margin of error. For me, eating certain food items is reserved for "special" occasions. Birthdays, holidays, ect. This has taken some of the neuroticism out of daily life for me. Allowing me to focus on what is important to me. I am willing to maintain a slightly higher BW than I would like to. For me, its not about the quantity of life, its about the quality. I mean some extra quality life would be nice though. Some people would say someone with grey hair has lived a long life. I would say maybe. Grey hair just means one has existed for a long time, not LIVED for a long time. JMHO2 -
@psychod787 Dalon, Bella is questioning previous advice to slow down as she approaches goal and not to continue applying effective deficits in the 800 Cal per day range well into normal weight. And is considering AT as a primary reason.
I think there is a slight misinterpretation (mis-statement) as to reasons and speed adjustments discussed.
Side effects such as AT, lean mass preservation/growth, food ideations associated with deficits, etc, are expected to increase as excess fat becomes less available.
This doesn't mean go from -800 to -150 right away, but it does imply slowly scaling down and not necessarily continuing to chase the pretty intense 2lb and 1.5+lbs a week targets. Bella's average as far as I recall is above 1.6lbs a week.
Hormonal rebound at maintenance is part of it. And the only thing **I** know to counteract that is TIME and minimizing it in the first place.
Thus to my mind a focus on loss (albeit very slow and, possibly, failing to lose; but, hopefully, not regaining) is a GOOD thing at the tail end of loss instead of switching directly from I am losing 1.5lbs to now I am maintaining.
Bella, as a comparison, my reality (subject to averages hiding a lot as you well know) was that I went just about -50 the first year (pre MFP), with about 6 months of -860 deficits which I found non sustainable but was impacted by no focus on protein or fiber and or food choices such as "things people eat on a diet such as subway sandwiches and muffins instead of fatty bacon!". This was followed by -72.5 my first year of MFP, -11.1 second year of MFP, and -2.7 / maintenance on third year on MFP (fourth year overall). Effective deficits for various time periods were -860 for 6 months, -695 for 12 months, -106 for 12 months, and -26 for 12 months.
The other reason Bella I've given for slowing down near goal and drawing out the proverbial last 10 lbs is a focus and emphasis on slower movement and flattening the curve. Reducing the amplitude of weight change. The slower the ups and downs are the easier on the body AND give you more time at a lower weight to embed lifestyle that promotes the retention of the lower weight.
Large ups and downs as is often seen and discussed by our very own people are hard both on mind and body.
I used to be incredibly concerned about AT and, in the past, it has contributed to weight regain. In particular the core temperature reduction generated by very low calories-in and very large (relative) amounts of calories out, even resulting in a diagnosis of Reynaud's with the doctors seeing someone in the 230lb range and not thinking of weight loss and large deficits as the reason.
Certainly at the tail end of rapid weight loss I was showing SOME symptoms of that (but not as many as in past instances) and they most certainly resolved over the five years I circulated in the 153.7 to 156.9 range.
But, regardless of knowledge or success, and in spite of a very successful (and slow) reduction from ~155 in February to ~151 in July over the first lock down. Increased family contact and aggravation just post the mere 4lb weight loss together with slightly looser logging = utterly classic yo-yo! "Ballooning" to me hitting the 155s by September 2020 (just a couple of months), and finding myself in the 157's by december, and having to make some effort to not break the 160 panic ceiling over next 12 months.
So, it is not all bad. In fact FAR from it. It is incredibly gratifying to be ABLE TO DO THINGS. But it is not by total coincidence that we've found ourselves needing to lose weight and the hamster management is NOT fire and forget.
Thus, most if not all my viewpoint boils down to "maximizing time doing weight management promoting things and being at desired weight" and engineering obstacles to regain.
OK. Off to make phone calls.
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I know, I know that active management is very important for the long term. But when you’re pushing 75 this year long term is not guaranteed. So I’ll stick with where am I today, where do I want to be tomorrow and how does next week look? Can’t spend precious time sweating about the next five years because seriously?3
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@psychod787 Dalon, Bella is questioning previous advice to slow down as she approaches goal and not to continue applying effective deficits in the 800 Cal per day range well into normal weight. And is considering AT as a primary reason.
I think there is a slight misinterpretation (mis-statement) as to reasons and speed adjustments discussed.
Side effects such as AT, lean mass preservation/growth, food ideations associated with deficits, etc, are expected to increase as excess fat becomes less available.
This doesn't mean go from -800 to -150 right away, but it does imply slowly scaling down and not necessarily continuing to chase the pretty intense 2lb and 1.5+lbs a week targets. Bella's average as far as I recall is above 1.6lbs a week.
Hormonal rebound at maintenance is part of it. And the only thing **I** know to counteract that is TIME and minimizing it in the first place.
Thus to my mind a focus on loss (albeit very slow and, possibly, failing to lose; but, hopefully, not regaining) is a GOOD thing at the tail end of loss instead of switching directly from I am losing 1.5lbs to now I am maintaining.
Bella, as a comparison, my reality (subject to averages hiding a lot as you well know) was that I went just about -50 the first year (pre MFP), with about 6 months of -860 deficits which I found non sustainable but was impacted by no focus on protein or fiber and or food choices such as "things people eat on a diet such as subway sandwiches and muffins instead of fatty bacon!". This was followed by -72.5 my first year of MFP, -11.1 second year of MFP, and -2.7 / maintenance on third year on MFP (fourth year overall). Effective deficits for various time periods were -860 for 6 months, -695 for 12 months, -106 for 12 months, and -26 for 12 months.
The other reason Bella I've given for slowing down near goal and drawing out the proverbial last 10 lbs is a focus and emphasis on slower movement and flattening the curve. Reducing the amplitude of weight change. The slower the ups and downs are the easier on the body AND give you more time at a lower weight to embed lifestyle that promotes the retention of the lower weight.
Large ups and downs as is often seen and discussed by our very own people are hard both on mind and body.
I used to be incredibly concerned about AT and, in the past, it has contributed to weight regain. In particular the core temperature reduction generated by very low calories-in and very large (relative) amounts of calories out, even resulting in a diagnosis of Reynaud's with the doctors seeing someone in the 230lb range and not thinking of weight loss and large deficits as the reason.
Certainly at the tail end of rapid weight loss I was showing SOME symptoms of that (but not as many as in past instances) and they most certainly resolved over the five years I circulated in the 153.7 to 156.9 range.
But, regardless of knowledge or success, and in spite of a very successful (and slow) reduction from ~155 in February to ~151 in July over the first lock down. Increased family contact and aggravation just post the mere 4lb weight loss together with slightly looser logging = utterly classic yo-yo! "Ballooning" to me hitting the 155s by September 2020 (just a couple of months), and finding myself in the 157's by december, and having to make some effort to not break the 160 panic ceiling over next 12 months.
So, it is not all bad. In fact FAR from it. It is incredibly gratifying to be ABLE TO DO THINGS. But it is not by total coincidence that we've found ourselves needing to lose weight and the hamster management is NOT fire and forget.
Thus, most if not all my viewpoint boils down to "maximizing time doing weight management promoting things and being at desired weight" and engineering obstacles to regain.
OK. Off to make phone calls.
Well Alec, nothing wrong with having hamsters, in fact, I have damn ferrets! The problem for me is, I can't let the little fury *kitten* run free, or they begin to take over my life. The problem with even addressing the subject of AT for me is, there are multiple models, that have been supported by different studies. Figure two of the most prominent as the static vs spring models. Deciding which one is right, or maybe both right, its just too much for most people. If I were coaching @Bella_Figura, I would ask what the last 10lbs means to her? How are her energy levels? Hunger levels? Sex drive? Does she feel overly restricted? Urge to binge? Does she feel she has to "over" exercise to maintain this caloric intake? Things of this nature. From personal experience, most of the AT issues I incurred, when I was at my lowest BF, have continued to remiss, as I push into my "settling" range for the lifestyle I am living. I would suggest to Bella to find a lifestyle, calorie target, and body weight, that makes many of the questions I asked above manageable. Not to concern herself with AT and rates of loss. I still think that one will come to a more normalized body weight according to lifestyle, genetics, and weight history, that is manageable. Control your hunger, both physical and psychological, and one is far more likely to control weight issues.2 -
@Yoolypr I mean dad is 82, and not because he takes care of himself! CCCGG's mom is 91, your mom you said was in her 90's, right? Lillibet in the UK is 96... so... I wouldn't bet against you swinging a random walker at my posts 10 years from now!
Plus long term? Have you seen how fast cars can move? Exactly!
Humans plan. Higher powers laugh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centenarian#Centenarian_populations_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_living_centenarians
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psychod787 wrote: »Control your hunger, both physical and psychological, and one is far more likely to control weight issues.
YES.
Now the burning question is... HOW to best setup so as to achieve that! 4 -
psychod787 wrote: »Control your hunger, both physical and psychological, and one is far more likely to control weight issues.
YES.
Now the burning question is... HOW to best setup so as to achieve that!
Well, the physical part is one we know a bit about. There are certain qualities of food that make them more satiating than others. Now those properties might be "individual", but most seem to be applicable. The second is tricky as hell, because I think some the psychological plays hand in hand with the physical. I am a firm believer of the reward hypothesis of obesity. The more "rewarding" a behavior, the greater likelihood of someone repeating that behavior. Dopamine... blah, blah, blah. The other is I think we might have to set "rules" around certain kinds of behaviors. Many people have few problems setting up rules for others behaviors around them. What they will tolerate and what they won't, but many have issues with imposing this around food. Why? Uhh.. society me thinks. Food is just thrown at us from all directions. Advertising, Jenny at work bringing brownies and making you feel guilty for saying no....ect ect. I think understand what foods are proper fuel, and which are just "fun", and knowing they are not off bounds, but have certain places in life might help some. Westerners have become accustomed to having their palates entertain by food constantly. May we need to learn that we don't need this. Huh, worth a shot.3 -
PAV I’ll gladly smack you with my walker ten years from now! Hubby and I have warned Son about our unfortunate longevity history. Both our mothers passed away at 96! The men weren’t so lucky age-wise. Son is an only child who will get the burden of dealing with increasingly crotchety aging parents. Serves him right for his abysmal teenage years!2
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psychod787 wrote: »If I were coaching @Bella_Figura, I would ask what the last 10lbs means to her? How are her energy levels? Hunger levels? Sex drive? Does she feel overly restricted? Urge to binge? Does she feel she has to "over" exercise to maintain this caloric intake? Things of this nature.
@psychod787, I need to lose another 14lbs to get to a BMI of 25 (132lbs). Those 14lbs are important. I'm hoping to go 10lbs lower because I'm definitely carrying way more than 14lbs of fat, but I'm not overly bothered about those last 10lbs to take me from 132lbs to 122lbs. If was able to maintain 132 over the long haul that would satisfy me.- Energy levels are fine at the moment. Fizzing with energy in fact.
- Strong, thick, shiny hair.
- Nails strong, and growing so fast that I need to cut finger/toe nails every fortnight. Odd but true.
- Sex drive is good.
- Satiety is fine, no noticeable hunger. At around the 26 week mark I noticed the onset of (raging) hunger and knuckled down and tolerated it for 4 weeks, until I looked back over my food logs and realised I'd reduced the amount of protein and fibre I was eating, as well as reduced my hydration. Once I improved my hydration and started eating 30+ grams of fibre and 60+ grams of protein per day, the hunger went away again and hasn't (yet) returned.
- Overly restricted? No, I can eat plenty on my current 'budget' of 1500 cals/day. I enjoy what I'm eating - it's varied, tasty, satiating, delicious. I don't forbid myself anything as long as it fits in my calorie budget, but I do like to get most of my calories from 'proper' food rather than confectionery etc.
- Urges to binge? No, not yet (this is day 310). No cravings. Lots of goodies in the house leftover from Christmas, but not feeling any temptation to go overboard on them.
- Over-exercising? Nope, I wouldn't say so. I walk the dog twice a day (for a max duration of 1.5- 2 hours a day in total at a 3.1mph pace) and I consider that sufficient exercise. I do love cycling so I'm always up for a bike ride, but I don't feel I 'MUST' do one for calorie-burn reasons. The cycling's just for fun and adventure.
- I've had 3 deficit breaks (14/10/10 days) and maintained well on all 3 breaks, then got back on the wagon without any difficulty afterwards.
Other things about me that may help from a 'coaching' viewpoint- Age 56, female, retired so plenty of time to devote to cooking, walking, NEAT etc...
- Lifelong obese (max BMI 44) with periods of bingeing; terrible yo-yo dieter. Always been good at losing, but hopeless at maintaining.
- Very disciplined and focused when I knuckle down and commit to something
- Pretty nerdy re data...maintain scrupulous records but more because I'm a data geek than because I'm neurotic about the numbers. I love data, what can I say?
- Good support network
- Pretty good toolkit (digital bathroom scales, digital kitchen scales, journal, power meters, good accurate logging etc).
- Pretty motivated, for health reasons (want to avoid T2 diabetes, which dad and sister developed as adults)
- Started at 211 lbs in March 2021, now 146 lbs (5'1" tall)...interim goal 132 lbs....ultimate goal 122 lbs.
- Never been on any medications, had any surgeries or had any major health scares; excellent health (amazingly!) except for some skeletal stiffness.
- No desire to be super-ripped or skinny - just want to maintain a healthy weight so that I can carry on walking and cycling into my old age.
- Happy to carry on measuring and logging food etc and weighing myself daily
- LOVE food/cooking etc. so I enjoy finding healthier ways to eat the food I really enjoy. Which is predominantly home grown fruit and veggies (grown on my allotment), lots of pulses and whole grains, plenty of dairy, organic meat and 'good' fats (by 'good' I predominantly mean 'natural' fats including butter and olive oil). But, as mentioned above, if I want chocolate or ice-cream I'll have them - it's just I don't feel the need too often.
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Ok….you all know me with numbers, spread sheet, etc….all I know is if I eat less and get in some exercise, I look better and feel better….I refuse to have grey hair and I plan on being around at least another 20 years….( Laurie and I have a date to be hot mommas! )…. I am hoping that before I do bite the dust that I lose more weight and I get a grip on my binge eating….I can’t keep thinking about what I wish I had done 30 years ago….all I can do is the best that I can every day and keep going forward!….that’s really all anyone can do…3
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Bella_Figura wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »If I were coaching @Bella_Figura, I would ask what the last 10lbs means to her? How are her energy levels? Hunger levels? Sex drive? Does she feel overly restricted? Urge to binge? Does she feel she has to "over" exercise to maintain this caloric intake? Things of this nature.
@psychod787, I need to lose another 14lbs to get to a BMI of 25 (132lbs). Those 14lbs are important. I'm hoping to go 10lbs lower because I'm definitely carrying way more than 14lbs of fat, but I'm not overly bothered about those last 10lbs to take me from 132lbs to 122lbs. If was able to maintain 132 over the long haul that would satisfy me.- Energy levels are fine at the moment. Fizzing with energy in fact.
- Strong, thick, shiny hair.
- Nails strong, and growing so fast that I need to cut finger/toe nails every fortnight. Odd but true.
- Sex drive is good.
- Satiety is fine, no noticeable hunger. At around the 26 week mark I noticed the onset of (raging) hunger and knuckled down and tolerated it for 4 weeks, until I looked back over my food logs and realised I'd reduced the amount of protein and fibre I was eating, as well as reduced my hydration. Once I improved my hydration and started eating 30+ grams of fibre and 60+ grams of protein per day, the hunger went away again and hasn't (yet) returned.
- Overly restricted? No, I can eat plenty on my current 'budget' of 1500 cals/day. I enjoy what I'm eating - it's varied, tasty, satiating, delicious. I don't forbid myself anything as long as it fits in my calorie budget, but I do like to get most of my calories from 'proper' food rather than confectionery etc.
- Urges to binge? No, not yet (this is day 310). No cravings. Lots of goodies in the house leftover from Christmas, but not feeling any temptation to go overboard on them.
- Over-exercising? Nope, I wouldn't say so. I walk the dog twice a day (for a max duration of 1.5- 2 hours a day in total at a 3.1mph pace) and I consider that sufficient exercise. I do love cycling so I'm always up for a bike ride, but I don't feel I 'MUST' do one for calorie-burn reasons. The cycling's just for fun and adventure.
- I've had 3 deficit breaks (14/10/10 days) and maintained well on all 3 breaks, then got back on the wagon without any difficulty afterwards.
Other things about me that may help from a 'coaching' viewpoint- Age 56, female, retired so plenty of time to devote to cooking, walking, NEAT etc...
- Lifelong obese (max BMI 44) with periods of bingeing; terrible yo-yo dieter. Always been good at losing, but hopeless at maintaining.
- Very disciplined and focused when I knuckle down and commit to something
- Pretty nerdy re data...maintain scrupulous records but more because I'm a data geek than because I'm neurotic about the numbers. I love data, what can I say?
- Good support network
- Pretty good toolkit (digital bathroom scales, digital kitchen scales, journal, power meters, good accurate logging etc).
- Pretty motivated, for health reasons (want to avoid T2 diabetes, which dad and sister developed as adults)
- Started at 211 lbs in March 2021, now 146 lbs (5'1" tall)...interim goal 132 lbs....ultimate goal 122 lbs.
- Never been on any medications, had any surgeries or had any major health scares; excellent health (amazingly!) except for some skeletal stiffness.
- No desire to be super-ripped or skinny - just want to maintain a healthy weight so that I can carry on walking and cycling into my old age.
- Happy to carry on measuring and logging food etc and weighing myself daily
- LOVE food/cooking etc. so I enjoy finding healthier ways to eat the food I really enjoy. Which is predominantly home grown fruit and veggies (grown on my allotment), lots of pulses and whole grains, plenty of dairy, organic meat and 'good' fats (by 'good' I predominantly mean 'natural' fats including butter and olive oil). But, as mentioned above, if I want chocolate or ice-cream I'll have them - it's just I don't feel the need too often.
Sounds like you have pretty much everything in order. Only three things I would add. 1. The difference in the prevention of disease from a 25 bmi to a 27, is not that great. We know that "most" of the health improvements come from the first 10% or so. That said, I see nothing wrong with being on the higher normal BMI. BMI is just a tool anyways. Good for populations, but mirky for some folks that are tittering on a "normal" bmi. if some is 30+ BMI, and is not jacked, then I see it as a more relevant tool. 2. While you seem highly motivated to weigh, measure and record all intakes now, this may wain in the future. Nothing wrong with using a calorie app, but relying on one for the long term might not be the best practice. 3. Life changes. While today the equation is balanced, a change on one side, can completely unbalance it. 2 hrs of activity a day is great, but what if you hurt yourself tomorrow? Would you be able to eat in a fashion that could balance out this lack of activity and still be happy? All in all, you seem to have a good grasp.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »I think understand what foods are proper fuel, and which are just "fun", and knowing they are not off bounds, but have certain places in life might help some. Westerners have become accustomed to having their palates entertain by food constantly. May we need to learn that we don't need this. Huh, worth a shot.
This really resonates with me. My palate has seen way too much action...it could use some downtime.2 -
You go girls 🤣 and hot mommas ❣️
I think we're all fairly on board with Bella continuing to do her thing for at least a bit longer towards BMI 25.
Just don't be scared to adjust!
Your 10 day diet breaks are possibly a little bit on the short side Bella with 14 day ones being what I mostly find in the literature as opposed to 10 days.
Hmmm..... was going to suggest the women's book by lyle. Expensive, full of copy editing fails, but a comprehensive review and offering some insight.
Interesting sentence: Preservation of FFM during periods of energy restriction (via greater protein intakes (Reference Helms, Zinn and Rowlands 125, Reference Jäger, Kerksick and Campbell 126), slower weight loss rates (Reference Vink, Roumans and Arkenbosch 120) and performing exercise (Reference Stiegler and Cunliffe127) for example) might help offset the increase in orexigenic drive seen with weight loss, but to date, this remains speculative and more data are needed in order to fully comprehend the impact of metabolic adaptations on appetite and EI during periods of negative energy balance
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-nutrition-society/article/metabolic-adaptations-during-negative-energy-balance-and-their-potential-impact-on-appetite-and-food-intake/92FC7CC3D00F801FBC1B8F4A164ADECD2 -
@psychod787 is channeling Stephanie's "one special treat a day" I admit to not being there... though it is definitely 'an issue' for the hamsters!
Mind you, Dalon, I am fairly certain, extends this beyond treats and into "mainstream foods" that are exceedingly tasty. And I would say it is true worldwide and has little to do with "westerners".
Everywhere-ness you can find, these days, highly caloric, highly available, relatively inexpensive as compared to past centuries extremely palatable food. Well. Not in a Canadian aeroplane where you get tossed 14g of pretzel sticks if you're lucky (28g if you are nice to the attendant). But everywhere else? Street vendors in Asia? Why give them a pass as compared to western food?2 -
I will "pile on" a little bit with something Dalon said to Bella. And remember that it takes one to know one.
There is no question that *I* have dedicated more than a small amount of time *and head or hamster space* to my quest for weight loss. I have not, to date, viewed it as something onerous. And *kittens* know it has been rewarding. But it definitely has been a priority. A priority I've been willing and able due to my circumstances to trade off other things for.
But I (and you Bella) should not be blind to the possibility that things can change. And the trade offs may become harder. So building in the hamster flexibility to roll with the punches is a GOOD thing I think!
Garfield is flexible and can twist like a pretzel! But we already knew that!
(Honestly Connie, I don't even understand how you can function without a headache given everything going on around you! Especially when you have to guard your food items from touching! )
OK: now. Less MFP. More dog walking. Princess is calling!2 -
I hear you OA! (now your leg is healing you're no longer 'Gimpy'...so OA it is from now on (Olympic Athlete not Overeater Anonymous )
As a dyed-in-the-wool emotional eater, I'm painfully aware that things can change in the blink of an eye. When my parents died 11 weeks apart in 2017 I gained 27kg in a year....
And the hamsters ruthlessly try every sneaky trick in the book when I'm already on the ropes with anxiety and fear (i.e. at the times when my husband's seriously ill). Honestly, you can't believe the stuff they whisper in my ear...
'You're so vain and shallow for worrying about your weight when Kim's so ill...'
'It's selfish and cruel to be trying to increase your longevity when Kim's fighting for his life...'
'What do you think Kim's feeling to see you being so wrapped up in your own health?...'
'There's no point living longer if Kim's no longer here....'
Believe me, I've heard them so often I know them off by heart....
And that's not even factoring in any change brought about by injury or illness that stops me exercising and therefore tilts my input/output balance.
Sigh.3 -
Yeah... well, not sure who's the olympic athlete here... I think your hamsters are giving it a serious go at being olympic pains in the **kitten**, though mine are not far behind sometimes!1
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I'm training a renegade posse of hamsters to chant a different mantra:
You need to stay healthy so you can continue to be a rock and support
Your health and longevity is just as important
Eating a donut won't make Kim miraculously better, so if you have to eat something, eat an apple instead
Kim has enough on his plate without worrying about you neglecting your health....
As you can see, I'm a 'motherly' type, who needs to feel useful and can't bear the thought of being a burden. The hamsters know that and have used it in the past to torture me....but I'm turning the tables and harnessing it as a reason to keep plugging away at my own health goals.
Beating the hamsters at their own game.
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This is a very important one for me. How do your little furry ones respond to that? Mine roll their black beady eyes at me and carry on - knowing that if they can just get that first one into me, or get me walking to the store, they won't have to listen to another word of my nonsenseBella_Figura wrote: »Eating a donut won't make Kim miraculously better....
Especially if my deficit has been running high.
hmmm...another way to look at this for me - must stay well nourished enough to battle the furry ones. They smell weakness.2 -
They definitely smell weakness.
You know a shark is supposed to be able to smell a drop of blood in an ocean from a mile away? Well, hamsters are even better than that at sniffing out vulnerability...
Yep, mine roll their black beady eyes at me and don't miss a beat...3 -
I won't disagree on their smelling weakness.
I spent the time this morning, while making coffee, to pre-peel four hard boiled eggs out of a batch of eggs I hard-boiled last night while the dog was waiting for her 30 minutes post medication for her meal... (note to self, at sea level, bring a dozen large (they're averaging 61g pealed) brown eggs to hard boil in large pot. Turn stove off and leave covered on the stove. Plunge in freezing water just when the dog is ready to get medication (30 minutes basically is how long I left them in there). Perfect hard boiled eggs!)
Anyway. There I was with four just peeled very nice looking eggs and a fresh pot of coffee.
And getting on the phone with my dad
Currently logged in cronometer is a pot of coffee (60oz, it is filled just over the 10 cup mark of the coffee makes, 60g of coffee, thnak you). And... 65g of wunderbar pieces for 330 Cal.
Uh-huh!
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I don’t think I have hamsters….the little critters are more like wolverines!
Speaking of critters, there was a Florida Bobcat of some sort strolling down our street the other night….kind of scary!….Egrets, alligators, cranes, and wild boar are always making appearances but a huge wild cat was out of the ordinary!3 -
You wildcat you, our Connie! And there I thought only Garfield was a wildcat!1
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@psychod787 is channeling Stephanie's "one special treat a day" I admit to not being there... though it is definitely 'an issue' for the hamsters!
Mind you, Dalon, I am fairly certain, extends this beyond treats and into "mainstream foods" that are exceedingly tasty. And I would say it is true worldwide and has little to do with "westerners".
Everywhere-ness you can find, these days, highly caloric, highly available, relatively inexpensive as compared to past centuries extremely palatable food. Well. Not in a Canadian aeroplane where you get tossed 14g of pretzel sticks if you're lucky (28g if you are nice to the attendant). But everywhere else? Street vendors in Asia? Why give them a pass as compared to western food?
Yes Alec, a higher protein intake most likely does help attenuate lean mass loss, but lean mass loss does not explain the greater than predicted rmr drop after weight loss. Remember that the biggest loser contestants lost an average of 80% bf and only 20% lean mass. Very respectable numbers, but their RMR's still suffered beyond what would be predicted. I would like to add that if one is highly motivated to attenuate lean muscle loss, one should be lifting weights in a progressive manner. Yeah, I'm talking to you....
As far as giving other cultures a pass, I dont. As we have seen rising affluence, and the increase in affluent foods, there has been a rise in obesity. As an n=1 though, whenever I have traveled to other countries, outside north america, I always lost weight. The increase in walking was helped by the change in diet. When one is a budget traveler, you are far more likely to cater at the hostel and eat meals with the locals at food stalls. Of course, as soon as I came home, I regained the weight as I slid back into my old lifestyle. I remember my trip to south america, back in 2010, I went from 360 to 300 in 4 months. I walked a lot and also ate at local places. I never got sick BTW. Still have fond memories of being in the andes, and eating the sopas, at local markets. I never aksed what was in it, just went to a place were people were lined up, and had what they were having.conniewilkins56 wrote: »I don’t think I have hamsters….the little critters are more like wolverines!
Speaking of critters, there was a Florida Bobcat of some sort strolling down our street the other night….kind of scary!….Egrets, alligators, cranes, and wild boar are always making appearances but a huge wild cat was out of the ordinary!
Where at in free state of florida? I live about 30 miles north of Gainesville. It's not uncommon to see bobcats here. Even had a siting of a Panther a few months ago. We are still country, but that is changing fast.2 -
Yup. Food porn is everywhere. Sexy potato chips, seductive creamy things, chips, chocolates (except the tasty ones from Belgium) sizzling burgers with secret sauce. Watching sweet bbq sauce slowly drip from the bottle, even seasonal coffee creamers. It’s all about building desire for the product. A relative is a food photographer that works with food stylists. He does photos for restaurant menus, print ads, grocery flyers, tv ads. You would not believe the effort to get just the right luscious photo. Sesame seeds placed with tweezers on oiled buns, vegetable shortening mixed with food colors to resemble ice cream which melts too soon under lights, styrofoam discs used under burger layers to separate, perfect cereal flakes arranged in a false bottom bowl, paint enhanced fruit. . .
On the exercise notes:
I’ve been working with a therapist on more weight/resistance exercises. Cardio is fairly easy for me when not in pain. The muscle work is really important as one ages and needs to be done correctly. The weight / resistance work will hopefully get me back to doing some cardio soon. The older you get the more muscle is lost. 😱3 -
Yup. Food porn is everywhere. Sexy potato chips, seductive creamy things, chips, chocolates (except the tasty ones from Belgium) sizzling burgers with secret sauce. Watching sweet bbq sauce slowly drip from the bottle, even seasonal coffee creamers. It’s all about building desire for the product. A relative is a food photographer that works with food stylists. He does photos for restaurant menus, print ads, grocery flyers, tv ads. You would not believe the effort to get just the right luscious photo. Sesame seeds placed with tweezers on oiled buns, vegetable shortening mixed with food colors to resemble ice cream which melts too soon under lights, styrofoam discs used under burger layers to separate, perfect cereal flakes arranged in a false bottom bowl, paint enhanced fruit. . .
On the exercise notes:
I’ve been working with a therapist on more weight/resistance exercises. Cardio is fairly easy for me when not in pain. The muscle work is really important as one ages and needs to be done correctly. The weight / resistance work will hopefully get me back to doing some cardio soon. The older you get the more muscle is lost. 😱
Not always the case, resistance training, and higher protein intakes, will help mitigate this in many people. Older folks might do better having a higher protein intake. Upwards of 1.6g/kg.2
