Random Acts of Questioning
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psychod787 wrote: »Control your hunger, both physical and psychological, and one is far more likely to control weight issues.
YES.
Now the burning question is... HOW to best setup so as to achieve that!
Well, the physical part is one we know a bit about. There are certain qualities of food that make them more satiating than others. Now those properties might be "individual", but most seem to be applicable. The second is tricky as hell, because I think some the psychological plays hand in hand with the physical. I am a firm believer of the reward hypothesis of obesity. The more "rewarding" a behavior, the greater likelihood of someone repeating that behavior. Dopamine... blah, blah, blah. The other is I think we might have to set "rules" around certain kinds of behaviors. Many people have few problems setting up rules for others behaviors around them. What they will tolerate and what they won't, but many have issues with imposing this around food. Why? Uhh.. society me thinks. Food is just thrown at us from all directions. Advertising, Jenny at work bringing brownies and making you feel guilty for saying no....ect ect. I think understand what foods are proper fuel, and which are just "fun", and knowing they are not off bounds, but have certain places in life might help some. Westerners have become accustomed to having their palates entertain by food constantly. May we need to learn that we don't need this. Huh, worth a shot.3 -
PAV I’ll gladly smack you with my walker ten years from now! Hubby and I have warned Son about our unfortunate longevity history. Both our mothers passed away at 96! The men weren’t so lucky age-wise. Son is an only child who will get the burden of dealing with increasingly crotchety aging parents. Serves him right for his abysmal teenage years!2
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psychod787 wrote: »If I were coaching @Bella_Figura, I would ask what the last 10lbs means to her? How are her energy levels? Hunger levels? Sex drive? Does she feel overly restricted? Urge to binge? Does she feel she has to "over" exercise to maintain this caloric intake? Things of this nature.
@psychod787, I need to lose another 14lbs to get to a BMI of 25 (132lbs). Those 14lbs are important. I'm hoping to go 10lbs lower because I'm definitely carrying way more than 14lbs of fat, but I'm not overly bothered about those last 10lbs to take me from 132lbs to 122lbs. If was able to maintain 132 over the long haul that would satisfy me.- Energy levels are fine at the moment. Fizzing with energy in fact.
- Strong, thick, shiny hair.
- Nails strong, and growing so fast that I need to cut finger/toe nails every fortnight. Odd but true.
- Sex drive is good.
- Satiety is fine, no noticeable hunger. At around the 26 week mark I noticed the onset of (raging) hunger and knuckled down and tolerated it for 4 weeks, until I looked back over my food logs and realised I'd reduced the amount of protein and fibre I was eating, as well as reduced my hydration. Once I improved my hydration and started eating 30+ grams of fibre and 60+ grams of protein per day, the hunger went away again and hasn't (yet) returned.
- Overly restricted? No, I can eat plenty on my current 'budget' of 1500 cals/day. I enjoy what I'm eating - it's varied, tasty, satiating, delicious. I don't forbid myself anything as long as it fits in my calorie budget, but I do like to get most of my calories from 'proper' food rather than confectionery etc.
- Urges to binge? No, not yet (this is day 310). No cravings. Lots of goodies in the house leftover from Christmas, but not feeling any temptation to go overboard on them.
- Over-exercising? Nope, I wouldn't say so. I walk the dog twice a day (for a max duration of 1.5- 2 hours a day in total at a 3.1mph pace) and I consider that sufficient exercise. I do love cycling so I'm always up for a bike ride, but I don't feel I 'MUST' do one for calorie-burn reasons. The cycling's just for fun and adventure.
- I've had 3 deficit breaks (14/10/10 days) and maintained well on all 3 breaks, then got back on the wagon without any difficulty afterwards.
Other things about me that may help from a 'coaching' viewpoint- Age 56, female, retired so plenty of time to devote to cooking, walking, NEAT etc...
- Lifelong obese (max BMI 44) with periods of bingeing; terrible yo-yo dieter. Always been good at losing, but hopeless at maintaining.
- Very disciplined and focused when I knuckle down and commit to something
- Pretty nerdy re data...maintain scrupulous records but more because I'm a data geek than because I'm neurotic about the numbers. I love data, what can I say?
- Good support network
- Pretty good toolkit (digital bathroom scales, digital kitchen scales, journal, power meters, good accurate logging etc).
- Pretty motivated, for health reasons (want to avoid T2 diabetes, which dad and sister developed as adults)
- Started at 211 lbs in March 2021, now 146 lbs (5'1" tall)...interim goal 132 lbs....ultimate goal 122 lbs.
- Never been on any medications, had any surgeries or had any major health scares; excellent health (amazingly!) except for some skeletal stiffness.
- No desire to be super-ripped or skinny - just want to maintain a healthy weight so that I can carry on walking and cycling into my old age.
- Happy to carry on measuring and logging food etc and weighing myself daily
- LOVE food/cooking etc. so I enjoy finding healthier ways to eat the food I really enjoy. Which is predominantly home grown fruit and veggies (grown on my allotment), lots of pulses and whole grains, plenty of dairy, organic meat and 'good' fats (by 'good' I predominantly mean 'natural' fats including butter and olive oil). But, as mentioned above, if I want chocolate or ice-cream I'll have them - it's just I don't feel the need too often.
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Ok….you all know me with numbers, spread sheet, etc….all I know is if I eat less and get in some exercise, I look better and feel better….I refuse to have grey hair and I plan on being around at least another 20 years….( Laurie and I have a date to be hot mommas! )…. I am hoping that before I do bite the dust that I lose more weight and I get a grip on my binge eating….I can’t keep thinking about what I wish I had done 30 years ago….all I can do is the best that I can every day and keep going forward!….that’s really all anyone can do…3
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Bella_Figura wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »If I were coaching @Bella_Figura, I would ask what the last 10lbs means to her? How are her energy levels? Hunger levels? Sex drive? Does she feel overly restricted? Urge to binge? Does she feel she has to "over" exercise to maintain this caloric intake? Things of this nature.
@psychod787, I need to lose another 14lbs to get to a BMI of 25 (132lbs). Those 14lbs are important. I'm hoping to go 10lbs lower because I'm definitely carrying way more than 14lbs of fat, but I'm not overly bothered about those last 10lbs to take me from 132lbs to 122lbs. If was able to maintain 132 over the long haul that would satisfy me.- Energy levels are fine at the moment. Fizzing with energy in fact.
- Strong, thick, shiny hair.
- Nails strong, and growing so fast that I need to cut finger/toe nails every fortnight. Odd but true.
- Sex drive is good.
- Satiety is fine, no noticeable hunger. At around the 26 week mark I noticed the onset of (raging) hunger and knuckled down and tolerated it for 4 weeks, until I looked back over my food logs and realised I'd reduced the amount of protein and fibre I was eating, as well as reduced my hydration. Once I improved my hydration and started eating 30+ grams of fibre and 60+ grams of protein per day, the hunger went away again and hasn't (yet) returned.
- Overly restricted? No, I can eat plenty on my current 'budget' of 1500 cals/day. I enjoy what I'm eating - it's varied, tasty, satiating, delicious. I don't forbid myself anything as long as it fits in my calorie budget, but I do like to get most of my calories from 'proper' food rather than confectionery etc.
- Urges to binge? No, not yet (this is day 310). No cravings. Lots of goodies in the house leftover from Christmas, but not feeling any temptation to go overboard on them.
- Over-exercising? Nope, I wouldn't say so. I walk the dog twice a day (for a max duration of 1.5- 2 hours a day in total at a 3.1mph pace) and I consider that sufficient exercise. I do love cycling so I'm always up for a bike ride, but I don't feel I 'MUST' do one for calorie-burn reasons. The cycling's just for fun and adventure.
- I've had 3 deficit breaks (14/10/10 days) and maintained well on all 3 breaks, then got back on the wagon without any difficulty afterwards.
Other things about me that may help from a 'coaching' viewpoint- Age 56, female, retired so plenty of time to devote to cooking, walking, NEAT etc...
- Lifelong obese (max BMI 44) with periods of bingeing; terrible yo-yo dieter. Always been good at losing, but hopeless at maintaining.
- Very disciplined and focused when I knuckle down and commit to something
- Pretty nerdy re data...maintain scrupulous records but more because I'm a data geek than because I'm neurotic about the numbers. I love data, what can I say?
- Good support network
- Pretty good toolkit (digital bathroom scales, digital kitchen scales, journal, power meters, good accurate logging etc).
- Pretty motivated, for health reasons (want to avoid T2 diabetes, which dad and sister developed as adults)
- Started at 211 lbs in March 2021, now 146 lbs (5'1" tall)...interim goal 132 lbs....ultimate goal 122 lbs.
- Never been on any medications, had any surgeries or had any major health scares; excellent health (amazingly!) except for some skeletal stiffness.
- No desire to be super-ripped or skinny - just want to maintain a healthy weight so that I can carry on walking and cycling into my old age.
- Happy to carry on measuring and logging food etc and weighing myself daily
- LOVE food/cooking etc. so I enjoy finding healthier ways to eat the food I really enjoy. Which is predominantly home grown fruit and veggies (grown on my allotment), lots of pulses and whole grains, plenty of dairy, organic meat and 'good' fats (by 'good' I predominantly mean 'natural' fats including butter and olive oil). But, as mentioned above, if I want chocolate or ice-cream I'll have them - it's just I don't feel the need too often.
Sounds like you have pretty much everything in order. Only three things I would add. 1. The difference in the prevention of disease from a 25 bmi to a 27, is not that great. We know that "most" of the health improvements come from the first 10% or so. That said, I see nothing wrong with being on the higher normal BMI. BMI is just a tool anyways. Good for populations, but mirky for some folks that are tittering on a "normal" bmi. if some is 30+ BMI, and is not jacked, then I see it as a more relevant tool. 2. While you seem highly motivated to weigh, measure and record all intakes now, this may wain in the future. Nothing wrong with using a calorie app, but relying on one for the long term might not be the best practice. 3. Life changes. While today the equation is balanced, a change on one side, can completely unbalance it. 2 hrs of activity a day is great, but what if you hurt yourself tomorrow? Would you be able to eat in a fashion that could balance out this lack of activity and still be happy? All in all, you seem to have a good grasp.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »I think understand what foods are proper fuel, and which are just "fun", and knowing they are not off bounds, but have certain places in life might help some. Westerners have become accustomed to having their palates entertain by food constantly. May we need to learn that we don't need this. Huh, worth a shot.
This really resonates with me. My palate has seen way too much action...it could use some downtime.2 -
You go girls 🤣 and hot mommas ❣️
I think we're all fairly on board with Bella continuing to do her thing for at least a bit longer towards BMI 25.
Just don't be scared to adjust!
Your 10 day diet breaks are possibly a little bit on the short side Bella with 14 day ones being what I mostly find in the literature as opposed to 10 days.
Hmmm..... was going to suggest the women's book by lyle. Expensive, full of copy editing fails, but a comprehensive review and offering some insight.
Interesting sentence: Preservation of FFM during periods of energy restriction (via greater protein intakes (Reference Helms, Zinn and Rowlands 125, Reference Jäger, Kerksick and Campbell 126), slower weight loss rates (Reference Vink, Roumans and Arkenbosch 120) and performing exercise (Reference Stiegler and Cunliffe127) for example) might help offset the increase in orexigenic drive seen with weight loss, but to date, this remains speculative and more data are needed in order to fully comprehend the impact of metabolic adaptations on appetite and EI during periods of negative energy balance
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-nutrition-society/article/metabolic-adaptations-during-negative-energy-balance-and-their-potential-impact-on-appetite-and-food-intake/92FC7CC3D00F801FBC1B8F4A164ADECD2 -
@psychod787 is channeling Stephanie's "one special treat a day" I admit to not being there... though it is definitely 'an issue' for the hamsters!
Mind you, Dalon, I am fairly certain, extends this beyond treats and into "mainstream foods" that are exceedingly tasty. And I would say it is true worldwide and has little to do with "westerners".
Everywhere-ness you can find, these days, highly caloric, highly available, relatively inexpensive as compared to past centuries extremely palatable food. Well. Not in a Canadian aeroplane where you get tossed 14g of pretzel sticks if you're lucky (28g if you are nice to the attendant). But everywhere else? Street vendors in Asia? Why give them a pass as compared to western food?2 -
I will "pile on" a little bit with something Dalon said to Bella. And remember that it takes one to know one.
There is no question that *I* have dedicated more than a small amount of time *and head or hamster space* to my quest for weight loss. I have not, to date, viewed it as something onerous. And *kittens* know it has been rewarding. But it definitely has been a priority. A priority I've been willing and able due to my circumstances to trade off other things for.
But I (and you Bella) should not be blind to the possibility that things can change. And the trade offs may become harder. So building in the hamster flexibility to roll with the punches is a GOOD thing I think!
Garfield is flexible and can twist like a pretzel! But we already knew that!
(Honestly Connie, I don't even understand how you can function without a headache given everything going on around you! Especially when you have to guard your food items from touching! )
OK: now. Less MFP. More dog walking. Princess is calling!2 -
I hear you OA! (now your leg is healing you're no longer 'Gimpy'...so OA it is from now on (Olympic Athlete not Overeater Anonymous
)
As a dyed-in-the-wool emotional eater, I'm painfully aware that things can change in the blink of an eye. When my parents died 11 weeks apart in 2017 I gained 27kg in a year....
And the hamsters ruthlessly try every sneaky trick in the book when I'm already on the ropes with anxiety and fear (i.e. at the times when my husband's seriously ill). Honestly, you can't believe the stuff they whisper in my ear...
'You're so vain and shallow for worrying about your weight when Kim's so ill...'
'It's selfish and cruel to be trying to increase your longevity when Kim's fighting for his life...'
'What do you think Kim's feeling to see you being so wrapped up in your own health?...'
'There's no point living longer if Kim's no longer here....'
Believe me, I've heard them so often I know them off by heart....
And that's not even factoring in any change brought about by injury or illness that stops me exercising and therefore tilts my input/output balance.
Sigh.3 -
Yeah... well, not sure who's the olympic athlete here... I think your hamsters are giving it a serious go at being olympic pains in the **kitten**, though mine are not far behind sometimes!1
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I'm training a renegade posse of hamsters to chant a different mantra:
You need to stay healthy so you can continue to be a rock and support
Your health and longevity is just as important
Eating a donut won't make Kim miraculously better, so if you have to eat something, eat an apple instead
Kim has enough on his plate without worrying about you neglecting your health....
As you can see, I'm a 'motherly' type, who needs to feel useful and can't bear the thought of being a burden. The hamsters know that and have used it in the past to torture me....but I'm turning the tables and harnessing it as a reason to keep plugging away at my own health goals.
Beating the hamsters at their own game.
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This is a very important one for me. How do your little furry ones respond to that? Mine roll their black beady eyes at me and carry on - knowing that if they can just get that first one into me, or get me walking to the store, they won't have to listen to another word of my nonsenseBella_Figura wrote: »Eating a donut won't make Kim miraculously better....
Especially if my deficit has been running high.
hmmm...another way to look at this for me - must stay well nourished enough to battle the furry ones. They smell weakness.2 -
They definitely smell weakness.
You know a shark is supposed to be able to smell a drop of blood in an ocean from a mile away? Well, hamsters are even better than that at sniffing out vulnerability...
Yep, mine roll their black beady eyes at me and don't miss a beat...3 -
I won't disagree on their smelling weakness.
I spent the time this morning, while making coffee, to pre-peel four hard boiled eggs out of a batch of eggs I hard-boiled last night while the dog was waiting for her 30 minutes post medication for her meal... (note to self, at sea level, bring a dozen large (they're averaging 61g pealed) brown eggs to hard boil in large pot. Turn stove off and leave covered on the stove. Plunge in freezing water just when the dog is ready to get medication (30 minutes basically is how long I left them in there). Perfect hard boiled eggs!)
Anyway. There I was with four just peeled very nice looking eggs and a fresh pot of coffee.
And getting on the phone with my dad
Currently logged in cronometer is a pot of coffee (60oz, it is filled just over the 10 cup mark of the coffee makes, 60g of coffee, thnak you). And... 65g of wunderbar pieces for 330 Cal.
Uh-huh!
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I don’t think I have hamsters….the little critters are more like wolverines!
Speaking of critters, there was a Florida Bobcat of some sort strolling down our street the other night….kind of scary!….Egrets, alligators, cranes, and wild boar are always making appearances but a huge wild cat was out of the ordinary!3 -
You wildcat you, our Connie! And there I thought only Garfield was a wildcat!1
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@psychod787 is channeling Stephanie's "one special treat a day" I admit to not being there... though it is definitely 'an issue' for the hamsters!
Mind you, Dalon, I am fairly certain, extends this beyond treats and into "mainstream foods" that are exceedingly tasty. And I would say it is true worldwide and has little to do with "westerners".
Everywhere-ness you can find, these days, highly caloric, highly available, relatively inexpensive as compared to past centuries extremely palatable food. Well. Not in a Canadian aeroplane where you get tossed 14g of pretzel sticks if you're lucky (28g if you are nice to the attendant). But everywhere else? Street vendors in Asia? Why give them a pass as compared to western food?
Yes Alec, a higher protein intake most likely does help attenuate lean mass loss, but lean mass loss does not explain the greater than predicted rmr drop after weight loss. Remember that the biggest loser contestants lost an average of 80% bf and only 20% lean mass. Very respectable numbers, but their RMR's still suffered beyond what would be predicted. I would like to add that if one is highly motivated to attenuate lean muscle loss, one should be lifting weights in a progressive manner. Yeah, I'm talking to you....
As far as giving other cultures a pass, I dont. As we have seen rising affluence, and the increase in affluent foods, there has been a rise in obesity. As an n=1 though, whenever I have traveled to other countries, outside north america, I always lost weight. The increase in walking was helped by the change in diet. When one is a budget traveler, you are far more likely to cater at the hostel and eat meals with the locals at food stalls. Of course, as soon as I came home, I regained the weight as I slid back into my old lifestyle. I remember my trip to south america, back in 2010, I went from 360 to 300 in 4 months. I walked a lot and also ate at local places. I never got sick BTW. Still have fond memories of being in the andes, and eating the sopas, at local markets. I never aksed what was in it, just went to a place were people were lined up, and had what they were having.conniewilkins56 wrote: »I don’t think I have hamsters….the little critters are more like wolverines!
Speaking of critters, there was a Florida Bobcat of some sort strolling down our street the other night….kind of scary!….Egrets, alligators, cranes, and wild boar are always making appearances but a huge wild cat was out of the ordinary!
Where at in free state of florida? I live about 30 miles north of Gainesville. It's not uncommon to see bobcats here. Even had a siting of a Panther a few months ago. We are still country, but that is changing fast.2 -
Yup. Food porn is everywhere. Sexy potato chips, seductive creamy things, chips, chocolates (except the tasty ones from Belgium) sizzling burgers with secret sauce. Watching sweet bbq sauce slowly drip from the bottle, even seasonal coffee creamers. It’s all about building desire for the product. A relative is a food photographer that works with food stylists. He does photos for restaurant menus, print ads, grocery flyers, tv ads. You would not believe the effort to get just the right luscious photo. Sesame seeds placed with tweezers on oiled buns, vegetable shortening mixed with food colors to resemble ice cream which melts too soon under lights, styrofoam discs used under burger layers to separate, perfect cereal flakes arranged in a false bottom bowl, paint enhanced fruit. . .
On the exercise notes:
I’ve been working with a therapist on more weight/resistance exercises. Cardio is fairly easy for me when not in pain. The muscle work is really important as one ages and needs to be done correctly. The weight / resistance work will hopefully get me back to doing some cardio soon. The older you get the more muscle is lost. 😱3 -
Yup. Food porn is everywhere. Sexy potato chips, seductive creamy things, chips, chocolates (except the tasty ones from Belgium) sizzling burgers with secret sauce. Watching sweet bbq sauce slowly drip from the bottle, even seasonal coffee creamers. It’s all about building desire for the product. A relative is a food photographer that works with food stylists. He does photos for restaurant menus, print ads, grocery flyers, tv ads. You would not believe the effort to get just the right luscious photo. Sesame seeds placed with tweezers on oiled buns, vegetable shortening mixed with food colors to resemble ice cream which melts too soon under lights, styrofoam discs used under burger layers to separate, perfect cereal flakes arranged in a false bottom bowl, paint enhanced fruit. . .
On the exercise notes:
I’ve been working with a therapist on more weight/resistance exercises. Cardio is fairly easy for me when not in pain. The muscle work is really important as one ages and needs to be done correctly. The weight / resistance work will hopefully get me back to doing some cardio soon. The older you get the more muscle is lost. 😱
Not always the case, resistance training, and higher protein intakes, will help mitigate this in many people. Older folks might do better having a higher protein intake. Upwards of 1.6g/kg.2
