Did you swim today?
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NoelFigart1 wrote: »1200 yards 40 minutes.
I do not have any idea how in the bloody most unprintable bad words that a two beat kick is supposed to help my speed. I get that I need some torque on my torso rotation and that I need to extend my stroke, but my normal swimming method has me at 25 strokes per length. The two beat kick brings me down to 37. It's not just learning a new technique, though. It seems to me unnecessarily clumsy and weak.
Anyone know what I might be missing?
Hey there - yes a 2 beat kick will likely result in more strokes per length.
I would say, it's a good idea to learn both. I generally use a 6 beat kick, but for real long distances like my 10km today, I used a 2 beat. I sacrificed the speed to conserve the energy to allow me to cover the very long distance.
Ultimately there is no one size fits all, and that's what the journey is about - trying out different approaches, giving enough time for evaluation of each, and seeing what works best for you. Different coaches will have their preferences, so I guess you should pick what you can from one, and even if you ultimately follow another approach, the knowledge you are gaining is never wasted, even if only to compare against other knowledge you may pick up elsewhere.
Finally, let me quote 2 passages from the book Swim Smooth (Paul Newsome, Adam Young) that is one of two books I've been reading that have something to say about strokes taken and 2 beat kicks (I don't have access to a coach so these books are invaluable to me, as I strive to get better in the pool).PAUL: Back in August 2008 I decided to modify my stroke technique to emulate that of one of my heroes and mentors of open water swimming, seven- time World Marathon Swimming Champion Shelley Taylor- Smith. I already had a reasonable open water technique from my days as an elite triathlete but with my goal of swimming the English Channel in 2011 I wanted to be assured of my ability to maintain the most economical marathon swimming technique for 8–12 hours depending on conditions. I was concerned that my strong 6- beat kick and ‘longish’ stroke (34–35 strokes per 50 m) at a moderate stroke rate of 64 SPM (strokes per minute) might have been OK in events up to 1500 m but could potentially be too fatiguing above this. I was also concerned that this low stroke rate may not have the momentum to carry me through some of the swell and chop that I would encounter in the Channel. It took me over 10 weeks, swimming six sessions per week, before I started to get a true feeling of how this new stroke would work for me. Converting the 6- beat kick timing to 2- beat was very taxing mentally as I became slower to begin with and for this reason I wouldn’t recommend the transition to everyone. The new stroke involved combining a 2- beat kick with a significantly higher stroke rate (80 SPM) but not being concerned about taking more strokes per lap (increasing to 41–43 strokes per 50 m). What I gave away in stroke length I more than made up for in rate and rhythm. Now that I have mastered it, this new stroke is not only faster than the old one at any distance over 400 m (more details in Chapter 27) but is considerably more economical for the type of events I now do – marathon swimming. It doesn’t appear quite as smooth or textbook as my old style but in open water there are no points for style, only performance! If you’re interested in seeing how my English Channel swim went, visit www.swimsmooth.com/paulchannel
The second quote from the same book:Efficiency and Stroke Length
In the early 1990s a movement developed in swimming promoting the idea that all swimmers should look to maximise the length of their strokes. This was based on the following observations at the time: 1. Olympic champions often (but not always) have long strokes, taking fewer strokes per length than ‘normal’ swimmers. For instance, freestyle great Alex Popov taking around 31 strokes per 50 m. 2. Slow inefficient swimmers who fight the water have shorter strokes and take more strokes per length than more capable swimmers. The conclusion drawn was that to be efficient you need a long stroke and this should be a priority for all swimmers to develop, regardless of whether they were pool or open water swimmers. Swimmers were taught to lengthen out their strokes as much as possible and try and glide down the pool, with the lead hand held out for an extended time creating a distinct pause between strokes. At Swim Smooth we call this style of stroke ‘Overgliding’. Unfortunately this approach was a very over- simplified view of swimming technique and did not take into account the true facts: 1. Many other Olympic champions use a shorter faster stroke very effectively if it suits their natural style. For instance Janet Evans and Laure Manadou taking around 50 strokes per 50 m. These swimmers are examples of the refined Swinger style (see Chapter 22). 2. Great swimmers that were observed with long strokes were not achieving their stroke length through gliding, they were achieving it through low drag and great propulsion (see below). Video analysis of these swimmers shows that the gap between one stroke finishing at the rear and the next starting at the front is between 0 and 0.15 seconds [2]. For Overgliders with an artificial glide, this gap is typically 0.5 to 1.0 seconds. 3. Elite open water swimmers and triathletes use a shorter faster stroke style that helps them punch through disturbed water from other swimmers in close proximity. Our key message here is that different styles of stroke suit different swimmers – a long stroke may suit you and you will be very efficient performing it, or a slightly shorter punchier style may be more efficient for you. Take an individual approach to your swimming and you stand a much greater chance of swimming success.
Hope that helps!0 -
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Lol!
That said you can't get dogmatic about these things. Everyone swears by their method and tiffs and fights break out.
See for example this response to Sheila Taormina (who's book I've read and whose suggestions I'm incorporating), by the Total Immersion guys!
http://www.active.com/articles/total-immersion-s-terry-laughlin-responds-to-sheila-taormina-s-propulsion-article0 -
Yes, 2 miles @ 74 minutes0
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Yes I had a great swim today. I was out of Town on business and had the chance/time to stop at the Eastlink Center in Grande Prairie, AB. 2 km in ~ 45 mins. Its a deep - Cold pool and what a difference that makes to speed and endurance. The pool is about 54 x 175 meters, broken into 3 sections. Diving Board area, 5 lanes at 54 Meters and 10 lanes at 100 Meters . I was in one of the 54 meter lanes and knocked off 20 laps ( ~2180meters ). My home town pool is a small ( shallow ) 6 lane 25meter pool that caters to families with young children so it is always very warm, and that makes me very slow.
Anyone else notice that they seem to be slow in shallow water or warm water?0 -
*blink* Ya know, when I was swimming in a pool that catered to collegiate athletes, it was cooler, and yeah, my times were faster than when I am swimming in my very warm community pool.
I had chalked it up to weighing about 20 lbs less than I do now and lifting weights regularly, but maybe the water temp has something to do with it, too. (You're a LOT faster than me in any case
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Definitely much faster in a cold pool especially over distance. Warm water leaves me tired and sometimes we a headache!0
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YES, 3 miles @ 120 minutes (PR) woo woo0
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@Bruceapple Nice!0
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Wow Aquatic. Wow. (Thanks for the encouragement on my improvement btw - took over 2 years... But I'll keep plugging away.)
Noel - no idea really, but would it help if you reduced gradually - knocking off one kick and adjusting, then doing another etc, rather than a big change which throws your rhythm/balance?
I'd thought the 2 kick approach was for really long swims (like Aquatic's ... !) At what point do most people switch over from more rapid kicking to the more TI long distance approach? Presumably if you are swimming for mega long distance you want to do the most energy saving approach, but if you want to use muscle/burn off calories etc you might as well kick like crazy. Or, if like me, your aim is basically to be reasonably fit, then the advice I have been given by my swim tutor is to use lots of muscle by including sprints (and bad butterfly!) to get your heart racing ...as well as doing the Up and down distance plod for stamina.
He was interestingly quite critical about people who just go one speed - pleased they were swimming, not so impressed by their 'workout' approach. A lot of swimmers seem to neglect sprinting as part of their swim (ie the equivalent of a runner doing interval training) judging by my pool at least...
So I guess this is a ramblymwaybif suggesting you might want to keep that fast kick in the repertoire as well as develop a minimal kick (and increase your upper strength/technique) for the distance work.0 -
Aha just seen aquatic's much more in depth answer to the kick stuff - silly me. My swim teacher would have advised do still do some fast kick sprints to get your fitness up, prep for the slower kick stamina stuff...
Shallow water/deep - yes. If you are kicking against more mass (deep water) you have more to help propel you. Swim teachers use this eg with butterfly getting you to go from deep to shallow at first. Or is it just that you can't stop and stand up and give up so easily?
Warm water - well it make you just want to lounge around and swim side stroke and play mermaids really, doesn't it....0 -
And good swims all ! I plan to be back in the pool tomorrow - not swum for a few days for various reasons and no longer sleeping so good.... Anyone else find this?0
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Great work, everybody!!!!!
Juliet - to me, warm water DEFINITELY makes me slower. It lulls me & makes me logey in the water. Cooler water keeps me more alert & seems to make my body push harder to generate more heat....
Noel - I've never really tried to concentrate on modifying my kick, per se, but in my longer swims I tend to kick at a slower rate but try to put more drive into each kick which seems to me to work out to be something along the lines of a 2 beat kick. I think the extra power generated allows me to keep moving while not getting me out of breath by kicking rapidly, like in a sprint.....0 -
Gently - I've definitely not been sleeping as well while away from the pool, & it'll probably be at some point in February before I'm back in every day......0
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@ Noel
I am pretty happy with my " Big Pool Time and speed " but when I am in my normal community pool I really start to slow down after the first 500 meters.
@ gently
Yea I agree with your comment that in the warm water " you just want to lounge around and swim side stroke and play mermaids really, doesn't it.... For me its like being on a Caribbean Ocean you want to laz around in the warm water after awhile.
Good swims Everyone. I have been throwing in a few short Treadmill runs to add a little extra exercise during the " 12 Days of Eating ".0 -
1300 38:47 Not one of my more brilliant swims, but a jelly bean in the practice jar, by God!
Happy Holidays, everyone!0 -
Oh mercy people. You're all light years ahead of me... Noel, I have absolutely nothing to contribute to the kick question. I'm still kicking to stay alive/afloat. I'm really focused on finding that pocket of air, so my kick is not on my radar yet. Someday...
However, I had a small breakthrough with the breathing and rhythm last night at the pool. Something started clicking more. I felt more relaxed, in synch, found that pocket a few times more than usual. Nobody at home really gets it, but I thought I'd tell you folks because no matter how small the victory (I went to the pool today when I didn't want to!) you people get it. I so appreciate this community of swimmers. I took up running 2 years ago and I need to remember how "not fun" it was because I didn't have the mechanics down. Gradually, over time and without realizing it, I got good at it and it became really, really fun. I'm hopeful swimming will be similar. For what it's worth, the skirt I bought last summer is now too small
~Curly0 -
Yes, 2 miles @ minutes
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL0 -
Bruceapple wrote: »YES, 3 miles @ 120 minutes (PR) woo woo
Fantastic bruceapple! And you are probably thinking, if you really had to, you could have gone on longer! Great job!gentlygently wrote: »... the advice I have been given by my swim tutor is to use lots of muscle by including sprints (and bad butterfly!) to get your heart racing ...as well as doing the Up and down distance plod for stamina.
He was interestingly quite critical about people who just go one speed - pleased they were swimming, not so impressed by their 'workout' approach. A lot of swimmers seem to neglect sprinting as part of their swim (ie the equivalent of a runner doing interval training) judging by my pool at least...
That does make sense. I have been trying to steadily up my speed to address the issue you raise. I tried to find a swim team to train with without success, so intervals are a bit harder to do, but I do hope to get into that! Very useful to build unaerobic body endurance too!gentlygently wrote: »
Warm water - well it make you just want to lounge around and swim side stroke and play mermaids really, doesn't it....
Lol! That is so true! Lol!Gently - I've definitely not been sleeping as well while away from the pool, & it'll probably be at some point in February before I'm back in every day......
It makes sense. My wife and mom have both been swimming today after a very long time out and they are both out like a light! Lol!juliet3455 wrote: »
Good swims Everyone. I have been throwing in a few short Treadmill runs to add a little extra exercise during the " 12 Days of Eating ".
Lol! Good job. I'm trying to out exercise the eating too by two daily swims of half hour each morning and evening, yesterday today, and hopefully he rest of the week. Not bothering with regulating my calorie intake much, other than going easy on the soda!girlwithcurls2 wrote: »
However, I had a small breakthrough with the breathing and rhythm last night at the pool. Something started clicking more. I felt more relaxed, in synch, found that pocket a few times more than usual. Nobody at home really gets it, but I thought I'd tell you folks because no matter how small the victory (I went to the pool today when I didn't want to!) you people get it. I so appreciate this community of swimmers. I took up running 2 years ago and I need to remember how "not fun" it was because I didn't have the mechanics down. Gradually, over time and without realizing it, I got good at it and it became really, really fun. I'm hopeful swimming will be similar. For what it's worth, the skirt I bought last summer is now too small
~Curly
Fantastic curly. Swimming even when you don't feel like it, and finally feeling that you are getting the elusive rhythm and 'that pocket'! Great job!
A BLESSED AND MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL! YOU ARE A CONSTANT SOURCE OF ENCOURAGEMENT AND MOTIVATION AND I AM BLESSED TO INTERACT WITH YOU ALL ON HERE! God's blessing be upon you all, today, and in the years to come!
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Merry Christmas to all of my swimming friends here, thank you all for the support & motivation....
Curly - that's great news, a BIG breakthrough. You are becoming more aware of the proper feel, & now you're discovering that you are able to find it more & more. Pretty soon it will be completely natural, & you won't have to think about it anymore. Then you can pick the next thing you want to work on & attack it the same way. Getting the "feel" is one of the most important things, because that's how you'll be able to tell when something's a little off & what you need to do to fix it. Congratulations on a job well done!!!0 -
seasons greetings all.
finally back in the pool today after getting all clear from consultant.
a slow 1km but refreshingly comfortable after such a long absence.0 -
Glad to hear you're back in, Clive, that's great news. I just found out that, not only did those work days that got pushed off get scheduled in January, but we picked up a new client so January is out for me & probably the 1st week or so in February too.....0
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Happy Holidays, my swimming friends. I was kicked out today (didn't realize it was Saturday and they close at 6pm), but yesterday I got an hour of practicing in. I was thinking about Noel's kick question and wondering if that's adding to my poor form. I'm really trying to work on 1-2 things at a time since it's all pretty beginner-ly bad, so once I got the feel of keeping my "tail tucked" as they say, I sort of let the kick go. However, yesterday, I worked on really relaxing, slowing down, and consciously slowing my kick. I CANNOT seem to count strokes and kicks AND breathe at the same time, so I just worked on feeling it come from the hip which seemed to help tremendously. Yesterday was a good day. I went back today with hopes for more, but it was hard and my legs felt incredibly tired and heavy. But, I stuck it out, used it as one of those really-not-fun-push-through-it-days, and did OK. Kind of funny to get kicked out when usually I have to ask myself, "Is that all you got? Are you going to go home feeling good about putting in your time?" and then along came this angel of a lifeguard who gave me permission to get out
So much to work on. So much to think about. No, there is not a pack of piranhas chasing me. Swim on, friends, into 2015!
~Curly0 -
A much quicker 1k today in celebration of the results of my 3 monthly health check.
vo2 max up from 32 to 47,which is in the excellent category for my age group.
swimming and rowing for full body health gains!0 -
Curly - you are doing so great!!!! The legs were sore because you gave the right muscles a good workout for the first time, you'll break through that pretty quick & you'll feel the strength in your legs pretty quickly (including when you're walking uphill, up or down stairs, using your legs to help lift something, etc.). Keep doing what you're doing by concentrating on form & not trying to do it all at once - picking 1 or 2 things at a time & staying with them until the muscle memory is there to the point that you don't have to think bout them is the smart way to do it. Some things will "take" faster than others, but complete concentration will help it happen better & faster. Too many things at once makes it so there's a much better chance that none of them are really getting full concentration & you'll never really be able to get that singular feel of any of them. Having that feel not only helps you learn it faster, you'll be able to identify AND fix what's wrong on the days you just don't feel right. Personally, I don't track my stroke or kick counts - I don't even know how many strokes it takes me to travel a length of the pool......0
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Merry Christmas to all of my swimming friends here, thank you all for the support & motivation....!!!Glad to hear you're back in, Clive, that's great news. I just found out that, not only did those work days that got pushed off get scheduled in January, but we picked up a new client so January is out for me & probably the 1st week or so in February too.....
And a Merry Christmas and New Year to you Mac! Sorry to hear, but at least it never hurts to pick up a new client!A much quicker 1k today in celebration of the results of my 3 monthly health check.
vo2 max up from 32 to 47,which is in the excellent category for my age group.
swimming and rowing for full body health gains!
Welcome back CW! Didn't realise you had been out for medical reasons and just thought you weren't logging. And you are rowing now too!
Good stuff!
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Yes: 1 mile @ 38 min. + 1 mile @ 42 min0
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All freestyle: 250, 500, 1000, 1500, 1500, 1000, 500, 250 yards....0
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1 km - all freestyle.0
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Great swim, Juliet!!!!
No swim today, bad stomach last night & I didn't want to risk any issues in the water. Disappointing, because this week is my last week in the water until after the 1st or 2nd week in February. The good news is that I found out I can swim Friday morning because we are starting work later than originally planned. At least it'll make up for today....0
