TDEE & BMR: What they are and what to do with them
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Ok thanks! So if I am lifting in the mornings, eat 2000 on that day, and 1800 on rest days?
Or 2200 on lift days, and 1800 on rest days? That would be taking 200 off the rest day and giving it to the lift day. I would be eating at surplus on that day but at maintenance overall.
2000 is avg TDEE if you ate it daily.
So 1800 / 2200.
If you felt like the rest day could take a bigger deficit, you could even do this one step better, but do the above first for a month to see what it feels like and progress.
Because really, on your lifting day, the TDEE for that day is probably closer to 2200 anyway, so you really aren't eating much in excess on that day, and your real TDEE on rest day is less.
So after you establish a base level of 1800 / 2200, which is really closer to the real TDEE on each day, you might move to 1600 and 2400 and see how that feels. Now you are getting an actual surplus on the lifting days, above the real TDEE, and taking a real deficit on the rest day.0 -
Ok, for the last few months I have been trying to eat at a -20% TDEE. During this time I have also picked up weight lifting, in addition to cardo. I haven't really lost much, inches yes - pounds not really (less than 10 in 4 months).
If I understand everything correctly, using Scooby's site, my numbers are as follows:
BMR = 1683,
TDEE = 2609
-15% = 2218
After I read the beginning of this thread (again) and due to the fact I'm trying to do the impossible (gain muscle while losing fat) on my days I hit the gym (avg time of 70-95 min a session - cardo warm-up/lifting/cardo cool down) if I burn more than my -15% minus my BMR, I should eat these cals back, but try to subtract them on my "non" gym days?
Thus on gym days - if I exercise more than 535 worth, I should tack them on top of the 2218, but whatever I added, subtract from the next day?
Example: total exercise from Monday was 813, thus I should eat an additional 278 on that day (2496) and on the next day (1940).
Am I finally understanding this correctly?0 -
Ok, for the last few months I have been trying to eat at a -20% TDEE. During this time I have also picked up weight lifting, in addition to cardo. I haven't really lost much, inches yes - pounds not really (less than 10 in 4 months).
If I understand everything correctly, using Scooby's site, my numbers are as follows:
BMR = 1683,
TDEE = 2609
-15% = 2218
After I read the beginning of this thread (again) and due to the fact I'm trying to do the impossible (gain muscle while losing fat) on my days I hit the gym (avg time of 70-95 min a session - cardo warm-up/lifting/cardo cool down) if I burn more than my -15% minus my BMR, I should eat these cals back, but try to subtract them on my "non" gym days?
Thus on gym days - if I exercise more than 535 worth, I should tack them on top of the 2218, but whatever I added, subtract from the next day?
Example: total exercise from Monday was 813, thus I should eat an additional 278 on that day (2496) and on the next day (1940).
Am I finally understanding this correctly?
If you still have a lot to lose, you'd benefit more by keeping steady amount daily, automatic calorie cycling you might say.
Bigger days bigger deficit, rest days less deficit, others days medium deficit. For the week it works out to a reasonable deficit.
And it's still best to keep it simple. Last few posts have been for someone nearing the end, wanting to maximize the lifting results, not just maintain or slow growth potential. And they workout in the am, so increasing for the day helps.
And while you have a lot to lose, you have the potential of actually gaining muscle too, even keeping it consistent.
The thing that will help you is getting best estimates of everything right now.
Like, was the BMR which started your math based on bodyfat%?
Might try this for better estimates, and track your progress with inches as you've noticed improvement on.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/961054-spreadsheet-for-bodyfat-bmr-tdee-progress-tracker0 -
Org fat % was 51% for Miffin - St Jeor.
Wow, downloaded that sheet and filled in the numbers, it came back with:
BMR = 1406
TDEE = 2350
TDEG = 1718 (26.9% deficit based off 58 lb left to loose & 44% heavy cardio to lifting ration)0 -
Org fat % was 51% for Miffin - St Jeor.
Wow, downloaded that sheet and filled in the numbers, it came back with:
BMR = 1406
TDEE = 2350
TDEG = 1718 (26.9% deficit based off 58 lb left to loose & 44% heavy cardio to lifting ration)
See, Mifflin is based on gender, age, weight, height - not BF%.
Using better estimated Katch BMR, you have been inflated by good 200 calories on BMR, and good 310 calories on TDEE.
So with 20% deficit even with these current numbers off inflated TDEE.
2609 - 20% = 2087 eating level.
That would appear to be a deficit of 500 calories, great.
But if you had used that better BMR in that activity level, your TDEE would be 2179 for Moderately Active, so a mere almost 100 calorie deficit. No wonder not much weight lost.
So now your TDEE estimate is higher, and it likely has been the whole time.
But with a lot to lose, and doing mainly lifting to retain muscle mass, you can have a better deficit if you want and keep muscle mass, potentially gain at this point if lifting right and hitting those protein goals.0 -
So if I understand right (which I doubt) the 1718 would be daily cal goal & not to eat back exercise?
Which if it's right means I won't have the energy for my lifting - I've tried dropping down to 1750 (used the Katch numbers before) and I was exhausted, couldn't get thru half my workouts, had concentration & sleeping issues, so when I raised my level back to 1980, it stopped.
Thus I'm either missing something, need to stop or scale back the lifting (as EVERYONE keeps telling me) or suffer thru the "side effects" and hope it gets better. Blarg.0 -
So if I understand right (which I doubt) the 1718 would be daily cal goal & not to eat back exercise?
Which if it's right means I won't have the energy for my lifting - I've tried dropping down to 1750 (used the Katch numbers before) and I was exhausted, couldn't get thru half my workouts, had concentration & sleeping issues, so when I raised my level back to 1980, it stopped.
Thus I'm either missing something, need to stop or scale back the lifting (as EVERYONE keeps telling me) or suffer thru the "side effects" and hope it gets better. Blarg.
You understood right, daily goal.
Depends on your goals.
That's a weight loss calculator using 2 of the 3 big things to retain, not gain, muscle mass.
Reasonable deficit based on amount to lose and activity type. Eating enough protein.
So it's minimum you might say, nothing prevents you from eating more - and not losing weight as fast safely.
Your goals.
Indeed, performance should suffer if not eating enough, you should reach point you can't progress, or at least not as fast.
So you've gotten to where you are eating more than you really needed to if weight loss was goal.
To make it on less, you'd indeed have to drop back to maintenance.
Now, it may also be the BF calc is not accurate for you right now. Bodpod may reveal higher LBM, therefore higher BMR, TDEE, TDEG.
But I think you have better understanding that TDEE is lower than you thought.
Now, you could also try to shove most of those calories into post workout 24 hrs, and that may help. Does for many.
Or eat that TDEG on non-lifting days, and extra 200 on lifting days, realizing the weekly deficit won't be the same, but feeding the workout you love to do and want to see progress on.
I would NOT take 200 from rest day to make that 200 more on lifting day, not with effects you've already seen.0 -
And this is why something is off.
AVG cal burn on "gym" day 700-900, 3 times a week (300-500 on the 4th day) USING a HRM (calculation for WL). If I eat 1700ish, I can't even lift the weight I did the week prior, even less reps. I also wasn't able to even run 5min before I was exhausted and HR spiked too high.
It probably isn't helping that I need to keep my carb levels low due to medical issues. I only need to loose 58 pounds to get to my goal weight of 160, I've lost the 77 over a span of a year.
I've ordered a BF measure device (omrion) and hopefully that will shed some light because right now (and as it has in the past!) if I drop the cals that low, I don't have the strength to do the workouts I want. The amount and intensity of exercise I am doing now is helping w/ my pain issues and stopping or reducing it is gonna be hurtful.0 -
And this is why something is off.
AVG cal burn on "gym" day 700-900, 3 times a week (300-500 on the 4th day) USING a HRM (calculation for WL). If I eat 1700ish, I can't even lift the weight I did the week prior, even less reps. I also wasn't able to even run 5min before I was exhausted and HR spiked too high.
It probably isn't helping that I need to keep my carb levels low due to medical issues. I only need to loose 58 pounds to get to my goal weight of 160, I've lost the 77 over a span of a year.
I've ordered a BF measure device (omrion) and hopefully that will shed some light because right now (and as it has in the past!) if I drop the cals that low, I don't have the strength to do the workouts I want. The amount and intensity of exercise I am doing now is helping w/ my pain issues and stopping or reducing it is gonna be hurtful.
Is HRM being used for lifting - because it's inflated. MFP is smaller and more correct.
The low carb can be a problem, and more protein may help so you have free amino acids to convert to glucose for energy.
But you'll have to decide for yourself the level of deficit. At least you have probably a better idea of TDEE not to go over.
You could even do a calorie cycling approach and eat more on lifting days, less on non-lifting days, and get good avg deficit between the two.0 -
So in an effort to cut plateaus and do even better I am thinking about changing to the TDEE & BMR method. We have simply set a top calorie consumption goal each day and for the most part hit that. Mine is basically 1500 and my wife is 1200. I have dropped about 85 pounds over the last 3+ years doing this off and on while going from little exercise (workouts, not walking and regular living activity) to 3-6 days a week of 1+ hour workouts. I am in the best shape of my life (I have weighed less as an adult, but not as strong, thin, or had the endurance I have now).
Me
Age 46
weight 226
pounds, 6'1"
current workout 6-7 hours per week
According to Scooby calculator
BMR 2087
TDEE 3600. Interesting that FitBit with workouts coming from MFP has me averaging 3596 per day in April.
TDEE minus 20% cut 2880
So the questions.
Anyone here that can talk about results from changing to this method? Short term and long term?
Should I really take what FitBit + MFP Workout logging and cut 20% from that (Although the accuracy looks awesome), yet never go under BMR.
If we do anything out of the ordinary like an extra long workout. long hike, etc. or something like a 1/2 marathon (wife running one on Sunday) then simply eat the extra calories?0 -
bump0
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My bmr is 1748 my tdee is 2098 it's telling me to eat 1678 cals a day how us this if u r not meant to eat below bmr ?0
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Ok, I went to the scooby site and put in my info. I got a BMR of 2137 and a TDEE of 2565. I chose "gain muscle, lose fat" as my goal. Do I just use these numbers in my custom goal on MFP or do I need to put in something different?0
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My bmr is 1748 my tdee is 2098 it's telling me to eat 1678 cals a day how us this if u r not meant to eat below bmr ?
Because sedentary level doesn't apply.
And don't take 20% deficit either.
You are planning on doing NO exercise at all, and very little movement either?
You'll be hard pressed to be successful with weight loss then.0 -
Ok, I went to the scooby site and put in my info. I got a BMR of 2137 and a TDEE of 2565. I chose "gain muscle, lose fat" as my goal. Do I just use these numbers in my custom goal on MFP or do I need to put in something different?
Custom goal Net eating level, but in this case if you included exercise in the TDEE level - which selecting Sedentary it appears you plan on NO exercise at all, and barely much movement otherwise, then I'll have to break the bad news now that you can't gain muscle and lose fat with no exercise.0 -
I understand that I have to excercise. No need to break any bad news to me. I think I got confused and put the wrong thing. I thought it meant what kind of exercise are you doing "NOW". So the exercise I put in is supposed to be my goal exercise? All of this is so confusing.0
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I understand that I have to excercise. No need to break any bad news to me. I think I got confused and put the wrong thing. I thought it meant what kind of exercise are you doing "NOW". So the exercise I put in is supposed to be my goal exercise? All of this is so confusing.
Shouldn't be too confusing, you are trying to get estimate on what you should eat, based on what you plan on doing.
But if currently doing nothing, and not certain about your goals either, 2 methods you can use.
1 - Reward method, you eat more because you did the exercise.
2 - Goal method, you eat more because you planned the exercise and did it.
Method 2 would never be correct for totally variable workouts, so only use MFP method 1.
You may have great constant schedule and need the practice of eating the same daily, so use method 2.
If you are just going to do sedentary (which is likely not true anyway) and eat back exercise calories, then just use MFP as intended but use recommended realistic values.
Activity level - really sedentary outside of exercise? Really 40 hr desk job with no extra walking around daily, 1 or more hour commute time daily, watching TV or computer or games in the evening? Brief shopping if any, brief cleaning, ect?
Most are Lightly Active by MFP standards and that setting.
Then, is that 20% deficit closer to 250 calories or 500 calories? Select which is correct for 1/2 lb or 1 lb loss weekly, not what you want the most.
Then log and eat back exercise calories.
If you selected 1/2 lb weekly loss and 20% deficit calc was really over 250 calories, then take 20% off the exercise calories.
If you selected 1 lb weekly loss and 20% deficit was really under 500 calories, then log them all.
Meet your daily goal.0 -
Heybales,
Thank you for taking the time to answer! I've read over your advice (to others) and have kept notes about a few things.
I'd appreciate it if you would look at my numbers and tell me what you think as I'm trying to understand how my body functions. I'm very curious to know what messages my body is sending me through the ups and downs.
According to scooby (done 10 days ago):
Female, 29
CW 171
GW 150
BMR 1543
TDEE 2662
TDEE-20% 2129
I'm a stay at home mom but I've been doing the Insanity program for the past two months. Therefore, I went with 5-6 hrs/wk of strenuous exercise. Before that, I was always a somewhat active person (walking, jogging, weight lifting, etc.)
The first month of Insanity, I lost 6 lbs. I didn't listen to the nutrition advice (I thought the goal of 2100 cal was too much). I was (sadly) eating about 1200-1300 cal a day (and thought I was doing really well). *slap on the hand* I know better now.
Second month kicked in and I was feeling tired and hungry. MAD hungry. I had a hard time keeping up with the intensity (low energy). The numbers on the scale weren't moving either. After doing some research, I decided to up my cal intake; I aimed for 1500 cal. It was as if my body had woken up from a deep sleep. I was starting to feel like myself again.
After further research (I knew something was off because I still wasn't losing, just going back and forth between 170-171 lbs), I found out about the concept of "eating more." *choir sings halleluiah* I only had 10 days left on the Insanity program, but I decided to shoot higher anyway (I was still hungry anyway!). Working my way up to 2100, I started with 1900 cal and now I'm eating 2000 cal a day. I'm shocked that I don't wake up in the morning bloated with the amount of food that I consume!
Obviously, I feel soooo much better. I have way more energy for exercise (and for the activities during the day). I don't dread the workout session like I did when I was "weak". Everything is just better; well, almost everything. I "feel" fat and it seems (in my eyes) that I've gotten bigger (my sis disagrees). Then again, I weighed myself this AM and it was around 168 lbs. I don't get it. What does it say about my cal intake? What is my body telling me? Still not eating enough? I know a "loss" should be good news but I don't want to lose muscle (if that's what it is).
Sorry for the length, but I wanted to give you a short (long! yikes) background info. I have to say, I totally enjoy eating more and even though it's only been 10 days, I don't want to go back to starvation. I'll be done with Insanity in a couple of days and plan on mixing cardio and strength training for weight loss (will need to recalculate TDEE, right?).
I really hope I come to understand my body.
I want "eating more" to work for me.
At this point, it has to. I don't want to eat like a bird.
Thank you!0 -
Sorry, GW 145 and Height 5'1
PS: if this isn't the appropriate topic for my questions, please let me know (and/or point me in the proper direction).
Thanks
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Heybales,
Thank you for taking the time to answer! I've read over your advice (to others) and have kept notes about a few things.
I'd appreciate it if you would look at my numbers and tell me what you think as I'm trying to understand how my body functions. I'm very curious to know what messages my body is sending me through the ups and downs.
According to scooby (done 10 days ago):
Female, 29
CW 171
GW 150
BMR 1543
TDEE 2662
TDEE-20% 2129
I'm a stay at home mom but I've been doing the Insanity program for the past two months. Therefore, I went with 5-6 hrs/wk of strenuous exercise. Before that, I was always a somewhat active person (walking, jogging, weight lifting, etc.)
The first month of Insanity, I lost 6 lbs. I didn't listen to the nutrition advice (I thought the goal of 2100 cal was too much). I was (sadly) eating about 1200-1300 cal a day (and thought I was doing really well). *slap on the hand* I know better now.
Second month kicked in and I was feeling tired and hungry. MAD hungry. I had a hard time keeping up with the intensity (low energy). The numbers on the scale weren't moving either. After doing some research, I decided to up my cal intake; I aimed for 1500 cal. It was as if my body had woken up from a deep sleep. I was starting to feel like myself again.
After further research (I knew something was off because I still wasn't losing, just going back and forth between 170-171 lbs), I found out about the concept of "eating more." *choir sings halleluiah* I only had 10 days left on the Insanity program, but I decided to shoot higher anyway (I was still hungry anyway!). Working my way up to 2100, I started with 1900 cal and now I'm eating 2000 cal a day. I'm shocked that I don't wake up in the morning bloated with the amount of food that I consume!
Obviously, I feel soooo much better. I have way more energy for exercise (and for the activities during the day). I don't dread the workout session like I did when I was "weak". Everything is just better; well, almost everything. I "feel" fat and it seems (in my eyes) that I've gotten bigger (my sis disagrees). Then again, I weighed myself this AM and it was around 168 lbs. I don't get it. What does it say about my cal intake? What is my body telling me? Still not eating enough? I know a "loss" should be good news but I don't want to lose muscle (if that's what it is).
Sorry for the length, but I wanted to give you a short (long! yikes) background info. I have to say, I totally enjoy eating more and even though it's only been 10 days, I don't want to go back to starvation. I'll be done with Insanity in a couple of days and plan on mixing cardio and strength training for weight loss (will need to recalculate TDEE, right?).
I really hope I come to understand my body.
I want "eating more" to work for me.
At this point, it has to. I don't want to eat like a bird.
Thank you!
No measurements?
You do a workout that can make great improvements to the body, for a good chunk of time it's starved for enough calories for just basic functions after exercise knocks a bunch off the top. There ain't any left for making improvements.
And Insanity is upper aerobic and anaerobic levels, almost total carb burn, very bad on low calorie.
So yes, some of that was muscle mass. Were you eating a good amount of protein, like 0.65 grams / lb of weight?
Then, you finally do start eating more, basic metabolism functions can be done again and you start feeling better in general.
May even be enough calories left over to actually start making those body improvements.
Body improvements rarely have anything to do with weight loss, but gain. You may lose fat at the same time, but you'll only be able to tell through many measurements.
Anything to compare to know?
But for good amount of that time, body was probably forced to slow everything else down to compensate for that energy burn. You may have burned a tired 600-800 calorie up in exercise, but I'll bet you were tired enough otherwise your body protected 800-1000 calories daily by doing less, you probably had a net positive calorie add to the day - in essence your exercise did nothing for you in burning extra calories, and since you weren't eating enough for most of the time, you got very minimal benefit from it. Of course that net calorie add wasn't enough to net you to your BMR even I'll bet.
There's a reason why their product guides has you eat much more.
And yes, you'll have to redo the TDEE for level of activity. And whatever level with hrs of exercise is right, the busy home life bumps it up a level too.0
