Thoughts, Epiphanies, Insights, & Quotables

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  • lauriekallis
    lauriekallis Posts: 4,672 Member
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    Me, too!

    (I'm so glad to be part of this group <3 )
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
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    Pfff, Skypup says I suck! 🤷🏻‍♂️🙀
  • Yoolypr
    Yoolypr Posts: 2,893 Member
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    All doting fur baby parents.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
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    You guys can disagree but she slaps me around for not paying enough attention! Yes. Paw on my jaw! (or the car console!!!!! :naughty: )
  • lauriekallis
    lauriekallis Posts: 4,672 Member
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    She's just doin her best to keep you in line!
  • Yoolypr
    Yoolypr Posts: 2,893 Member
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    Daylight Saving time tomorrow. I hate fidgeting with the clock twice per year. I feel off schedule for at least a week. My mealtimes are crazy. While it may be helpful to farmers, it doesn’t help us urban dwellers in the least. And the last thing needed in the heat of Texas is an extra hour of daylight. 🌞
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
    edited March 2022
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    So our @AnnPT77 replied to a question about yo-yo dieting probably intended for the dietician. It is a pretty good review of how I too understand things to work... and it might resonate with many of us...

    I would tend to stress manageable deficit, sustainability of effort, do things you feel that you will be able to do long term as opposed to separating life as "on" and "off" diet... but... well... here is what she wrote:
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Well . . . not exactly. This will be a long essay (sorry), or maybe rant. There's a TL;DR at the end.

    There's some evidence, as I read the research, that repeated extreme yo-yo dieting is bad for health (maybe worse than staying slightly overweight, even).

    There are ways that yo-yo dieting can lower one's calorie needs, but it depends on the dieting methods somewhat, and it can be reversible.

    Think of it this way: Generally, our bodies get good at what we train them to do. If we're athletically active, like if we run every day, we'll get better at running, right? Bodies be like that.

    Over human history, famines were common. The people who lived through them, had kids, were our ancestors. They were the people whose bodies were good at living through famines (unlike the people who died faster under starvation stress). So, we're kind of designed to live through famines, via natural selection.

    If we - us regular modern people - go through repeated famines, we're training our bodies to maximize those "live through famine" traits.

    Our bodies don't know the difference between repeated famines, and repeated extreme weight-loss diets.

    I'll describe a bad pattern that many women in my demographic have done for decades. (I'm old, 66. Times have changed. This may not be what you did, but bear with me. I have a point. Eventually.)

    It was common to get/feel fat, then go on a diet. The diet would often involve extreme and unusual tactics: Eating different foods, going for the lowest possible calories we could tolerate. (We felt tough and cool, showing that willpower. It was fun to talk about with friends, sharing "diet tips".)

    A common pattern for women was lots of salads and veggies, very low fats, little/no meats, minimized carbs, all low calorie . (We felt delicate and feminine, virtuous even, eating like little birds. That was fun to talk about, too - a bonding experience.)

    On the exercise front, plenty of cardio was the norm, back then: Extreme, intense. Aerobics, fat burning zone, all that kind of stuff. No strength training, because we didn't want to "get bulky" or "look like a man". (This was also kind of fun, showing that willpower to do this intense stuff, brag about our workout routines. They were exercise programs designed just for women, so cool.)

    Eventually, that would break down, because we couldn't keep it up. Too hard, not compatible with a balanced, happy life.

    We "went back to normal". "Normal" tended to be no workouts (or super minimal, still cardio), eating All The Things, but probably mostly carby/fatty things, often still not that much protein: The pizza, the pasta dish, maybe still the salad but with the bits of crispy chicken and the ranch dressing. (I don't know why that's so common, among women my age, low-balling protein foods, but it is.) On the side, soda pop, dessert, wine, beer, sweet mixed drinks, sweet coffee drinks. Snack on the candy, chips. Have the cheesy or deep-fried appetizer.

    Repeat, repeat, repeat. What's the effect?

    Even without every one of those detailed extremes, each weight loss tends to lose some muscle mass, alongside fat loss (from losing really fast at low calories, not getting good overall nutrition, especially protein, doing no strength exercise to remind our body we need those muscles).

    Every regain tends to be mostly fat, no regain of muscle (from still sub-par overall nutrition, too many calories, no activity to encourage our body to use surplus calories building muscle instead of adding fat). Statistically, most people regain to a new high weight, higher than before. It's mostly fat.

    Muscle, pound per pound, does burn a few more calories at rest than fat, but the number is small (like around 6 calories per pound daily for muscle, 2 for fat, approximately, so around 4 calories difference per pound per day, just sitting around). That's a small lowering of our calorie needs.

    More importantly, that loss of muscle, and the habits the yo-yos create, can have a bigger impact.

    The extreme exercise during weight loss teaches us that exercise is unpleasant, even miserable (it needn't be, but it seems like that), plus maybe time-consuming and hard to fit into our life without disrupting our happy routine.

    During "go back to normal", we sit around more, get more out of shape, develop a whole range of subtle habits of not moving very much: Not just formal exercise, but maybe things like less window shopping, more TV watching; less active play with the kids, more sitting in the shade with our e-reader.

    Those habits lead us to let even more muscle and fitness slip away. The less fit we are, the less fun and the more difficult activity becomes, so we probably do less of it . . . subtly, gradually, unnoticed. Even fidgeting burns up to a couple of hundred calories per day, according to research on fidgety vs. non-fidgety people who are otherwise similar. Who notices how much they fidget? (I don't.)

    There are some other subtle things, too: Maybe our body temperature drops a fraction of a degree, because our body's planning for another famine. Feel cold? Maybe our hair grows a little slower, gets a little thinner. (Expected with age, maybe? Or maybe not). Maybe our fingernails grow slower, too, aren't as strong. Those (in this paragraph alone) and other tiny things, technically, might be considered "metabolic damage". They aren't necessarily permanent, either, but they can be a bit stubborn to reverse. Fortunately, they tend to be calorically pretty small.

    Bottom line: With a bunch of yo-yos, we tend to burn slightly fewer calories through body composition (less muscle, more fat). We may burn slightly fewer calories from stuff in that "metabolic slowdown" paragraph. We also tend to burn fewer calories - maybe lots fewer - through reduced movement in daily life (plus reduced exercise capability or intensity).

    That makes each next round of weight loss a little harder.

    The good news: Pretty much all of that is reversible, and we can lose weight without all of that stuff so much kicking us, on the next round.

    We can get good overall nutrition (including enough protein, but not just that), add some doable strength exercise, work on cardiovascular fitness gradually via fun (or at minimum tolerable) activities that are manageably challenging to our current fitness level (not miserable or punitive), be intentional about getting more movement into our daily life . . . those can happen when we're losing weight, or when we're not. Beneficial in either case: They gradually improve fitness, and increase routine calorie burn.

    When we're losing weight, we lose at a sensibly gradual pace, figuring out how to eat nutritiously and eat enough that our body doesn't immediately slip into "OMG! Famine!" territory. While losing, we can take some breaks at maintenance calories for a couple of weeks, to practice maintenance, but also to let various hunger/appetite hormones recover, so the body can relax its "famine alarms".

    During that manageable calorie deficit, we can keep going with the fun, manageably progressive strength and cardiovascular exercise (in ways that fit into our life while keeping enough time and energy for other things important to us - good life balance - so it's sustainable).

    Overall, we can experiment, figure out, groove in long-term eating and activity patterns that work for us to stay at a healthy weight, instead of repeating the "extreme loss"/"go back to normal" nonsense. These patterns can become routine habits that happen more-or-less on autopilot, when life gets complicated, because they don't take massive attention or willpower to sustain.

    Apologies for the long essay. If you want a more science-explanation, the first few posts in this thread are excellent:

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1077746/starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss/p1

    TL;DR: Repeat yo-yo dieting can make each subsequent bout of weight loss more difficult, but for pretty non-dramatic, common sense reasons. The effects are usually reversible, with better plans. Someone who's yo-yo dieted can lose weight, and even reach a point where their calorie needs increase, while having a reasonably happy life during the weight loss, and beyond. That happens with a sensibly moderate plan of good nutrition, modestly reduced calories (for quite a long time), intentional and manageable changes in activity (including but not exclusively exercise).

    Best wishes for future success!
  • lauriekallis
    lauriekallis Posts: 4,672 Member
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    Thank you for sharing this great post, PAV. I have followed Ann for awhile - and have always been impressed by her food choices (she is also a vegetarian).
  • Bella_Figura
    Bella_Figura Posts: 4,032 Member
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    I took a trip down memory lane this morning, when I was thinking about 'intuitive eating' and why I struggle with it. Because, after all, people have eaten intuitively for millenia - try to explain a calorie to our great-grandmothers and they wouldn't have a clue what we were talking about. And ask them to weigh their food, and keep a log of everything they eat and drink - they'd think we were totally batty.

    So if intuitive eating was natural for my great-grandmother...grandmother...mother...why is it so hard for me? Am I just 'broken' or defective in some way? I doubt it. Actually, it's much more likely that its the shift in our society that has made intuitive eating such a difficult proposition.

    I'm 56, and I was born and raised in Birmingham, the second biggest city in the UK. A big metropolis. All our local shops opened at 9am and closed at 5pm. On Wednesdays and Saturdays they closed at noon. On Sundays only the newsagent was open, until 11am. Apart from a chippy, we had no fast food outlets at all. They hadn't been conceived of yet. The chippy (which just sold chips, battered fish and meat pies) only opened for 2 hours in the evening, from Tuesday to Saturday. I was a teenager before the first McD's opened in the city centre. To this day I've never tasted KFC or Burgerking. I was at university before I had my first chinese and indian takeaways or pizza. Pubs were open for 2 hours at lunchtime and four hours in the evenings. Drinking at home was unheard of, as was the concept of 'going out for dinner'. I was 22 before I set foot in a restaurant (for my graduation celebration).

    We kids were given 5p for sweets on a Saturday morning. It bought quite a haul of goodies, but wasn't quite enough to buy fancy chocolate bars like Mars Bar, Snicker Bar, KitKat or Twix (they all cost 9p). They were twice-a-year Christmas and birthday treats. Once our we'd eaten our Saturday sweets we got no more until the following Saturday.

    As soon as they were weaned, infants were hydrated with milky tea, water, milk or watery squash. In 1974 fizzy pop hit the scene, and the Corona man came to the house every Friday at 3pm and delivered a glass litre bottle of fizzy pop, and collected last week's empty bottle. The one litre lasted our family of 7 for the whole week (only we 4 kids under 16 were allowed to drink it). This was the only way you could buy fizzy pop until the late 1970s.

    When I was 10 a 'huge' newfangled supermarket opened in our suburb. It had 6 modest aisles. We'd go there on a Saturday morning and do the weekly shop. That included one pack of plain biscuits, which the 7 of us shared. Every few evenings, just before bedtime once we'd come in from playing and had a strip wash, the biscuit barrel was taken down from a high shelf and we were each solemnly given one biscuit. Even dad only got one. It was a treat.

    Breakfast was porridge 365 days a year, made with water and salt. Then sprinkled generously with sugar and a glug of whole milk. We took a bagged lunch to school. It was invariable. One slice of white packet bread made into two small squares of sandwich. And an apple and an orange. Monday it was fish paste; Tuesday cheddar and tomato ketchup; Wednesday ham and cucumber; Thursday corned beef and tomato ketchup; Friday marmite. This was supposed to sustain us from when we left the house at 7am until we got home. We were always hungry at school. Dinner was dished up as soon as we got home from school at about 5.30pm.

    Mom cooked a proper dinner and a proper pudding every night. Portions were modest. Seconds were never an option. You were expected to clear your plate and not whine about it, even if it was liver or tripe (yuk).

    We played outside with all the other neighbourhood kids from dinner time until it got too dark to see. We weren't allowed to stay indoors under mom's feet even in lightning storms. In the holidays we were out by 8am...we'd be allowed home for a sandwich at about 1pm then sent out again until dinner time, then out again until it was properly dark. It would've been considered weird to raise your kids any differently.

    Food was simple, but calorific. Even on quite small rations I was still overweight. Mom fried everything in lard or dripping. Bread was always white, packaged and served thickly buttered. Cheese was invariably cheddar and thickly sliced. Tea was sugary with plenty of whole milk. Dinner was stodgy, designed to fill us up cheaply. Heavy on the potatoes and yorkshire pud, light on the meat, which was expensive.

    Mom survived predominantly on sugary tea and cigarettes. We kids got the lion's share of what was going, dad got the rest, mom went without. Not because she was dieting (she was always skinny) but because the food didn't stretch too far and there were lots of mouths to feed. She chose cigarettes over food. She worked hard - always on the go from dawn until bedtime. Running a household with few labour-saving devices, holding down three cleaning jobs. Dad's job was hard too - he was a lorry driver and he'd leave the house at 3.30 am to load up with his deliveries and not get home until late evening. Six days a week. Those long hours weren't uncommon.

    I'm guessing that most folks over 50 had similar childhoods, whether in the UK, USA or Canada. It was normal.

    But nowadays, we're living in a 24/7 smorgasbord. Even in my small deeply rural village there's a grocery store that's open from 7am until 11pm 364 days a year. There are probably 20+ take-out chinese/indian/thai/pizza/kebab etc places within a 10 mile radius that would deliver to my home 7 days a week. There are half a dozen huge supermarkets in every small town, stuffed with food from all corners of the globe. A dizzying array of choice and abundance. Food is widely available, plentiful, and the non-nutritious stuff is appallingly cheap. Everything is super-sized.

    At home and work, our lives have become sedentary and non-laborious.

    Life is better now in lots of ways than it was 40-50+ years ago, but all the above shows how much more difficult it is now than it was back in the day to eat intuitively and exercise restraint and moderation. If indulgent fare isn't there, you're not tempted to have it. If it's there - constantly - it's so much harder to maintain constant self-discipline. I'm not advocating a return to 1960/70s austerity, but I do see the benefit in trying to detach from all that abundance...
  • Yoolypr
    Yoolypr Posts: 2,893 Member
    edited April 2022
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    So many familiar memories for me too! My family came to the US after 5 years in refugee camps post WWII where I was born. My parents were especially happy to be able to feed their children well after so many years of near starvation. Unlike my sisters I took to overeating very well! Heavy Eastern European/ Germanic fare.
    I’ve read some interesting studies about pregnant women who lack adequate food producing children predisposed to obesity. My mother was starved during pregnancy with me as was my grandmother during her pregnancy with mom. My sisters were born before and after the food shortages and are average weight. So???

    Still working on guilt from not cleaning my plate or tossing food. Funny the things from childhood that won’t go away no matter how old we get.
  • luxia2020
    luxia2020 Posts: 55 Member
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    Wow, reading this has been an eye-opener! :o Amazing how times had changed, considering those descriptions were several years before I was born. Thinking back to my childhood, it's also different from how it is for me today.
    When I started elementary school, I was forcefully woken up (I was never an early riser, but now I am, funnily enough). I had to walk to the bus stop two blocks down. Breakfast wasn't a thing for me back then, and it took me decades to realize I benefited from eating breakfast. Lunchtime was whatever the school cafeteria offered, which, surprisingly, was pretty nutritionally balanced, for the most part. We'd get off around 2-3pm. Dinner was around 5pm.
    It was always a bowl of rice, a big pot of soup, two protein dishes (usually a type of fish and either red meat, poultry, or tofu (primarily for me)), and two vegetable dishes for the entire family of 10. Then one more meat dish was added when the family became a total of 13.
    Incredible how the only amount of exercise I ever did back then was the walk to the bus stop and the mandatory Physical Education classes. When I started middle school, I had to be driven to school. So my only exercise was during P.E. Then I got both my knees injured during P.E. at different times and detested exercise even more. But I was always hovering around a healthy weight range.
    Once I started attending college, all hell broke loose. I still never really exercised, but my meals changed. Breakfast? What's that? Lunch? The campus cafeteria had pizza, calzones, pasta, and burgers. Packaged sushi if you're feeling high-class. A tiny salad bar existed, but not many people went for it naturally. Soda vending machines were everywhere around the campus and came in those 16.9 fl oz./500mL bottles. Water fountains were there too, and it was in vending machines if one cared to find them at the very bottom of the list. Otherwise, there were some fast-food restaurants down the street from the campus. And several boba tea shops and Starbucks. Dinner? Time to eat out with friends if we're feeling decadent! Otherwise, 8pm instant ramens for you! Oh, look, we've been studying for hours! Let's go order a midnight dinner! Ah, financial aid didn't come through for us yet. Time for 2 more cups of instant ramens each!
    Oh man... now that I listed it out, it really did start when I got that "newfound freedom" when I went to college. Those college eating habits never changed once I started working, and it brought me to this point today. :'(
    With too much "freedom," options, and no semblance of self-control, it's natural to gain excess weight when we don't exercise to help combat unhealthy decisions. :(
    And as Yoolypr mentioned, we had to finish every grain of rice before leaving the dinner table.
    "Back when we migrated to Vietnam, we had to go weeks without rice!" my grandfather loves to mention every so often. (Very) Old habits die hard, I guess.
  • Yoolypr
    Yoolypr Posts: 2,893 Member
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    We are often the experimental result of our parents eating habits. Food for many parents represented security and safety from want and deprivation. The offspring internalized the need for security but also had abundant access to food.
    Maybe we behave like hungry people in a sea of plenty?
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
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    And that my friends is why studies do show that people exercise more dietary restraint and eat more close to within their calories when predominantly consuming what I will use the short hand of "whole foods cooked from scratch" versus code word "less restrained" eating habits.

    Such as those of a very smart friend of mine who has trouble controlling her weight while pulling an income that allows her to order from both skip the dishes and Uber eats everyday more than one time a day. Not counting restaurants friends and family events...

    I admit that I did a lot of 🐹 arm twisting in order to allow myself to throw out food. And said this remains religiously opposed by most people who've known me in the past!
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
    edited April 2022
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    And that my friends is why studies do show that people exercise more dietary restraint and eat more close to within their calories when predominantly consuming what I will use the short hand of "whole foods cooked from scratch" versus code word "less restrained" eating habits.

    Such as those of a very smart friend of mine who has trouble controlling her weight while pulling an income that allows her to order from both skip the dishes and Uber eats everyday more than one time a day. Not counting restaurants friends and family events...

    I admit that I did a lot of 🐹 arm twisting in order to allow myself to throw out food. And said this remains religiously opposed by most people who've known me in the past!

    https://icedrive.net/s/iTVv7xh6zYNNVDQ1AbYxGxvahh2W

    https://icedrive.net/s/T56Q9PQWabkjPPXxSuv3vPXVCggy

    Food item links only on for a few days!😹
  • luxia2020
    luxia2020 Posts: 55 Member
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    Funny how I was just looking for background music ideas, and this pops up in my feed instead:
    The Asian "Secrets" to Healthy Eating
    I'm just going to reiterate the more pronounced sayings in the video to make it easier, even though the video is only a little over 7 minutes long:
    1. "Eat until you're 80% full." (The Chinese version changes that to 70%)
    2. "1 soup, 3 dishes." (a healthy variety of 1 soup, 2 vegetable dishes, 1 protein dish)
    3. "Eat well and worry less."
    Eat what nature provides, and we'll naturally satisfy those three is how I understand it. The real question is, can we honestly find what's "natural" anymore these days? Especially when most of the food we eat has gone through selective breeding by human hands for years, even thousands of years.
    WAIT. WAIT. WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, ちょっと待って!
    The real goal was never about weight loss! It's all about HUNTING FOR WHAT'S BEEN LESS PROCESSED! 🤯
    Less processed = something our body has an easier time breaking down = 💩all the excess, unnecessary stuff💩 = naturally slim!
    The true winner is finding ways to make processed foods in an unprocessed fashion! BEST. OF. BOTH. WORLDS.
    Dang. OK. I need to start substituting more.

    Where was I going with this anyway? 😅🤣
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,740 Member
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    Thinking. Which is good.😎

    Now for me to stop adding bo vien to my pho tai with half noodles 🐹😘
  • Bella_Figura
    Bella_Figura Posts: 4,032 Member
    edited April 2022
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    I think it's interesting how at a certain point my focus shifted from weight loss -> weight management -> health management.

    While I don't think it's especially helpful for me to think in terms of 'good foods' and 'bad foods' - because food is just food and shouldn't have those emotive labels or connotations - I AM trying to eat unprocessed foods 80% of the time. Natural foods that have been messed around as little as possible - that, when they arrive in my house need washing, peeling, chopping, grating, coring, filleting, shucking, cooking, mashing, bashing or squashing.

    I try to eat the rainbow to cover all my vitamin and mineral bases...eat a variety of foods to promote a healthy gut biome....keep it as natural as possible...watch my portion sizes....hopefully a healthy weight will be a bonus side-effect.
  • luxia2020
    luxia2020 Posts: 55 Member
    edited April 2022
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    —SNIP FOR FOCUS—
    Natural foods that have been messed around as little as possible - that, when they arrive in my house need washing, peeling, chopping, grating, coring, filleting, shucking, cooking, mashing, bashing or squashing.
    —SNIP FOR FOCUS—
    That is one mighty fine list of verbs. I guess the key point is if you're not working for your food, you're not truly enjoying the process of eating! 🤔
    🤯 It truly begins the moment we take the time to prep every ingredient~! Let the ingredients sing their song to you and serenade you as you turn them into something truly wondrous~

    Dang. I think I'm on a roll here. 🤣
  • lauriekallis
    lauriekallis Posts: 4,672 Member
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    Keep rolling, Luxia. I like "if you're not working for your food, you're not truly enjoying the process of eating" ! That is so true. When I'm working for my food I'm living my best. Doesn't always happen - but it is fine when it rolls that way.