Retirement Projects
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Proceeding with the chick crafts. ATM, I'm making stitch markers for my very accomplished knitting buddy, who makes amazing delicate knit shawls and such (sample below in photo, not blocked yet so slightly rough, but those with an eye for it can see the delicacy, fineness, detail. (It's maybe 3x3 feet-ish or so, a square shawl).)
But that's not my piece. Not that skilled or patient: So, so many hours of detailed work!
Knitters slip stitch markers on their needles to track patterns (such as the points of diamonds in the shawl shown), then work the markers off as they go along. My task now is to make stitch markers worthy of such lovely pieces - daunting!
These are my prototypes, below. I needed to get some Argentium silver, an alloy with more pure silver content than Sterling, and different working characteristics; then learn to fuse (not solder) rings, make ball-end headpins from it, with a hand-held butane torch, in order to make the stitch markers. This will serve me well in future jewelry projects!
Argentium is IMO better in this application, because its low tarnish qualities will reduce chances of discoloring the knitting yarns. while doing the work.
The beads shown are Nevada turquoise, rutilated quartz, glass pearl, fossil coral, quartz crystal (maybe somewhat rutile?), fossil (maybe small orthoceras? Not sure - dunno my fossils), garnet, all joined via ball-end wrapped-loop head pins (made from 20ga wire) to the 8-9mm ID fused Argentium rings.
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Update on the mushroom farm.
The pins on the king oyster aborted, probably the result of too little water in the 5 lb block. The seller did say they'd only guaranty a first flush. I finished soaking and chilling the shiitake block before putting it back in the grow tent.
I let the chestnuts get too mature and they spored... a lot! Dark brown spores all over the grow tent. Being over mature the mushrooms were a bit tough and stringy, particularly the stems. Kind of like biting into celery. Taste was fine but that texture was too much. Live and learn.
The spores from the chestnuts could be why the king oysters aborted. I've heard that mushrooms don't like to fruit with a heavy bioload, so I'm going to do a deep clean on the grow tent.
I'm going to take that opportunity while handling the blocks to attempt to clone both the king oyster and the shiitake.
Earlier this week I cut down a small red oak out in an overcrowded draw on the southwest corner of my property. Roughly eight inch at the base. I cut twelve seven inch sections from the bottom and have been running them through my new 23 qt pressure cooker, one at a time for two hours. Here is the rolling rack stored in my root cellar (seven done, five to go).
I'll be inoculating 6 with maitake (hen-of-the-woods) and the other six with chicken-of-the-woods. After they colonize in two to three months, I'll plant them in my wife's Hosta garden (the Hostas should be done for the year before the mushrooms fruit in the late Summer/early Fall). Probably won't see fruit this year but should next year.(maitake on the left) Should add interest to a flower gardens, don't you think?
I decided not to waste the top of the tree so yesterday I cut it up to make shiitake logs. Here they are on the north side of my machine shed to cure for anywhere from two weeks to three months. About a dozen logs ranging from 3-ish to 7-ish inches in diameter and about 40 inches in length.I'm hoping to clone that shiitake block and then make my own plugs to inoculate the logs. If that doesn't go well, I'll buy shiitake plugs. @mtaratoot, I wonder if your friend would consider selling me about 500 shiitake plugs if I can't make my own.
Been too cold to do much with the smithy but as Spring draws nearer I look forward to reacquiring my hammer skills.
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@d_thomas02
I sent you a PM how to contact them. I bet they'd be happy to sell 500 plugs. You'll have to chat with them to determine what strain you want, or maybe they'd send more than one. They have hundreds of strains cultured.
Those look like good candidates for shiitake. Plenty of sapwood, and long enough/thick enough to fruit for a few years. My friend usually says to inoculate as soon as possible. Never heard of letting them cure, but I'm an amateur. Shiitake doesn't like to compete with other fungi. I think that's why it's good to get them growing quickly. I think March is a good month to inoculate.1 -
Thanks @mtaratoot
I read somewhere that you have to wait for the tree's natural antimicrobial functions to die before inoculating.
But what do I know. I've never done this before. LOL1 -
My information from my friend is STRICTLY related to shiitake. That's her favorite. They do supply mushroom farms with many other species. They have maybe 20 or more different strains of shiitake. The one she gave me recently is an "indoor strain," but she said she's had luck with it on logs. She recently already has a log fruiting... she said THAT one is a cold weather strain.
Anyway, she says fresher is better. She says you want as much sapwood and as little heartwood as possible. She has some little drill bits that are pre-set to depth. She says when you tap the dowels in, don't pound them past the bark; you want inoculate the cambium. Some instructions say you should cap them with wax. She doesn't bother, and she told me not to bother either.
With so much rain this time of year, I bring my logs under a roof if we have constant rain for days on end. Then I bring them out to have them "gain weight" when they "get light." In summer, I leave them in the shade and water them enough to keep them hydrated, usually by letting them sit in a bucket of water one at a time for a while. Now that I have more logs, it will probably take several days to get them all soaked. One log is probably spent. She uses kiddie pools to keep the rain off and to soak them in the summer.
I thanked her for the logs and dowels a few weeks ago. She told me not to thank HER for the work I did, but to thank her when I eat some of the mushrooms.2 -
Quick update from the mushroom farm.
The oak chunks I inoculated Saturday; March 12 are doing well.
Here is a chunk with maitake growing over it.(The white is the mycelium. The orange is the sawdust substrate the spawn grew on.)
And one with chicken-of-the-woods.(Note the finer texture of the mycelium and an orange tint.)
Six blocks of each. 10 days done, 80 days to go before planting them in her Hosta bed.
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Well....
There's a chance I'll be posting some retirement projects. I turned in my retirement notice yesterday afternoon. I think first I'll take some much needed rest and then get busy running rivers.1 -
Well....
There's a chance I'll be posting some retirement projects. I turned in my retirement notice yesterday afternoon. I think first I'll take some much needed rest and then get busy running rivers.
Woo-hoo: Congrats!
FWIW: Though I wasn't expecting this, I went through a kind of weird phase for a while immediately post retirement, until I got myself into a new routine and new frame of mind.
I was having fun, but not very focused, kind of feeling (physically!) like I should be switching topics every few minutes, because that's what I'd done in my high-stress job. I think some of my colleagues who retired were distressed by similar feelings, and that's why they eventually returned to full-time work in their former field.
I was not going to do that, and trusted myself to get things on a good basis, with patience. Worth it!
You have so much going on in your life that you probably won't have the problem, but I always mention it to folks I know who're retiring. Some have later told me that they experienced similar things, so the observation helped them. 🤷♀️
I think you're making a good move, based on my experience. I've been retired since 2006 (the year I turned 51) - having decided to retire as early as feasible due to my cancer recurrence risk - and I haven't regretted the retirement at all yet. 😉
Wishing you much happiness in retirement!2 -
Thanks @AnnPT77
I am at least a little concerned about finances. I'm cutting it really close, but I have a 90% chance of not running out of money. Sequence of Returns Risk was something I kept in mind the last year or so, and... almost looks like it's coming to pass. Another year at my employer might take five years off my life, so I think I'll just move forward. If I have to pick up some part time work or do some consulting, I can make that decision later. First I plan to take six months and not work a bit for money. I will keep up my volunteer work and may add an extra shift or two.
I already have a plan to be a safety boater for a fundraising two-day overnight river trip for an organization I support in June. It's a wine-focused trip. They ask me to cover the cost of my food. No problem. I donate money to them anyway. They even carry my camping gear so I have an unladen boat. I just have to keep an eye on folks and offer assistance if needed. I can do that.
In August they have a five-day four-night trip that runs about 85 miles or so on the Willamette. I'll sign up to be safety boat for them, too. A few days after I get back, I take my raft down to the southern part of the state to run the Rogue. I'm invited on another Rogue trip in the fall. Also in the fall, that organization does a two-day "Harvest" paddle. I will help with that. That one will feature beer and cider.
I also will be able to spend a lot more time in my garden. I just spent a few hours out there. I'm afraid I let the weeds get out of control in the garlic. I hope I was able to rescue some of it. It's been SO wet that it might not do well anyway. We shall see. Next year I might take a year off from the garden since I will be on a Grand Canyon raft trip for pretty much the entire month of April.
I have a good friend who has family property in New Hampshire. I was the officiant of her wedding. She also has taken at least a break from working. She thinks I'd like to see New Hampshire in the fall, so maybe we'll go. I kind of think it would be a hoot to go see the Southwest during the winter, or maybe wander down to Baja.
Being a Taurus, I sometimes struggle with change. It could be that's all this is; just the discomfort of walking away from "the devil you know."
A whitewater-loving friend took a VERY early retirement during a buyout from the company he worked for. He told me:"...people talk about how good retirement is. They are wrong. It's better than that. And I guarantee you that the best physical health you will have in retirement is your first day when you're youngest. And the only way to guarantee you don't run out of money is die at your desk, and that doesn't work for people like us."
There's someone I used to work with who came to wish another co-worker off for their retirement. Joe said that it's true some people take a little while to get used to being retired. He said it took him at least two or three... seconds.2 -
@Mtaratoot, I hear you on the financial question. I was never a seriously high earner, so retiring at 51 was a big decision. I'd been saving some for years (403(b), 457, some post-tax stuff) and implicitly practicing living below my means.
After cancer (when I was 44-45), and cancer widowhood (when I was 43), it was pretty clear in my mind that I'd feel really irritable if I got metastatic cancer and died (which was about a 40% chance, on the good side of the odds but seriously non-zero) before I got a chance to retire. That was the point when I really doubled down on strategies to retire as early as I could make it happen, even with some risk.
Sequence of returns risk? My retirement was 2006. Remember 2008? 🤣 But it's worked out OK, so far. I'm still not taking SS, despite being full retirement age, because I can get along OK, and nothing else is implicitly growing at 8% annually at that investment risk level. I'm thinking about pulling that trigger though, but purely on numbers it'd probably better to keep waiting.
I did work part time (about 25%, flexible schedule) for a few years, after a few months' post-retirement break. The income was nice - particularly because somehow the folks I was working for bought into paying me an hourly rate close to what I'd made in salary (if we assumed 40 hours, which I'd worked more than) when a middle manager responsible for around 30 people . . . for a part-time gig as sort of an internal consultant who could opine about stuff, but have no line accountability. That was sorta fun. I think the income made me feel better financially about the transition, and didn't hurt the numbers. There needed to be a conceptual shift from focusing on net worth (what I'd done while working, i.e., build phase) to managing cash flows - different mindset, different skillset. (I think a lot of other people focused more on cashflows while working . . . ? Even though my net worth wasn't big, that was what made more sense to me, especially as retirement prep.)
For me, I'd say the psychological retirement transition took a few months, honestly, at least. The first weeks were familiar-feeling, like being on vacation. After that, it was odd. It didn't feel bad, but it was like my attention span's autopilot was on that 30 minutes to an hour cycle that I was used to from the workplace, so I'd find myself switching activities for no good reason except that it viscerally felt like I should. Not really bad in any objective way, but weird. Twitchy!
I had a colleague sit me down after I announced my retirement, tell me I'd never make it work: He'd tried to retire, felt purposeless or non-contributing or something, I guess. He was sure I'd feel similar, I guess because I was fairly driven at work. (IMO it's more fun to try to be good at a job, if I'm going to bother to be there, y'know?) I was sure he was wrong . . . and he was. I'm a big fan of the purposeless, non-contributing life, I guess.1 -
@AnnPT77 - I have been doing the 457(b) thing for a while. Just a little at first, but for the last several years maxing it out. It made a big dent in my take-home, but that also taught me to live on less. I should ~almost~ be able to replace my pre-tax income in retirement if I withdraw assets at a reasonable rate and add that to my state pension. Those dollars should go farther because I only have to pay income tax, not payroll tax, on the money that comes from the deferred comp. Other assets will only have capital gains, so I may be better off than I think. I won't really know what my pension is until my first check, although I have a really close set of estimates.
A friend who stopped working in April had a neighbor tell her, "You'll get bored." She won't. She has a life outside of work.
Many people I know have no doubt I will have more than enough to fill my time. Boredom is not a concern, and to be honest, I enjoy some down time. I expect I will be one of the folks who wondered how I ever had enough time to go to work.
I wrote an article for our Union newsletter years ago I came upon recently. It's part of my philosophy. It is about what happens when people meet. Inevitably, one of the first questions is, "What do you do?" What the intent of the question is "What do you do several hours a day several days per week in exchange for money?" But that's not the question they ask. They ask, "What do you do." I used to say, "I kayak." People would drop their jaw and assume I was a professional kayaker. That might be nice. I'm not. I go on to say I have this deal with a "sponsor" where I go spend about forty hours a week doing their bidding and they pay my mortgage, buy all my food, and pay for my river trips. There was one guy who I had this dialogue with who when I then asked what HE did said, "I sail." He got it. It's a good philosophy. I ended the article imploring folks that if I met them and asked what they did, they'd have a good answer.
So, my first "retirement project" is to settle down a bit and soak it all in.1 -
That all sounds positive, @mtaratoot. One more comment from me: The tax situation in retirement is an adjustment, too - at least it was for me. If the capital gains are happening in a taxable account, the numbers can be very unpredictable from year to year to year, even within a year, if there's rebalancing or other sales gains/losses especially. I often end up with a bigger tax refund than I would've found acceptable during working years (zero interest savings account!), just to avoid penalty risks on the other end of mis-estimation.
Tax planning is a retirement project, so on topic to this thread, I think? 🤣1 -
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Growing season is over. Leaf cleanups are almost done. It's after Thanksgiving so the pressure is off. I was told to stay warm at home today as the high is only supposed to be 40 F (4 C).
So, I get to work on mushrooms today. (Yes! [fist pump])
Truthfully, my nine cultures of liquid culture have suffered from neglect over the heat of the summer. I was able to resurrect five fairly quickly but have had to go to backup agar plates for the other four. The restarts are looking promising. I'll be inoculating new liquid cultures for the missing four as well as starting new grain spawn for all nine today. I'll also be inoculating slants for all nine as well. Agar slants are used for long term backup storage of mycelium cultures.
The mycelium are in the cloudy layer in lower portion of the jar, The upper liquid is clear showing this is a healthy liquid culture. If it were contaminated with yeast, mold, or bacteria the liquid would be cloudy and there could be bubbles at the surface.
Note the thin silvery threads on this agar plate. Those are the mycelium.
A fully colonized jar of grain spawn.
Agar slants. The thicker portion at the bottom of the tube acts as a nutrient reservoir, slowly feeding the mycelium on the surface.
I've made a steamer sterilizer for fruiting bags out of an old metal drum. Works well and can hold twenty bags, but last time I didn't turn the feed water off when I shut the heater down and the fill valve leaked so that when I went to unload the bags the next day, the bags were swamped. I was only able to salvage three bags out of a small run of six. I'll be installing an emergency high water shutoff valve today.
I've removed the false bottom to show the stainless-steel ball that is part of the filling system that leaked on me, over filling the barrel
I was able to resurrect a tenth culture that I had started in the Spring of this year from a Yellow Morel. (The agar plate in the photo above is the Yellow Morel.) This is a bit of a side project to the mushroom farm. Morels are currently not a viable commercial strain for indoor farming. They are easy enough to cultivate the mycelium but notoriously hard to fruit. There are promising results coming from Europe. Just something to occupy my spare time.
(Not my photo.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgA2whMu8Y0
Two brothers in Holland. The grass seedlings help trigger the morels to fruit.2 -
My retirement projects now involve upgrading my new place on the east coast. The house in Ottawa sold well so I've got a bit of equity...
The place on PEI was built in 1977 and had an addition (garage and bonus room) added in 2007...
It has a bunch of "firsts" for me... I've never had a wet radiant heating system... I've always had standard HVAC (ducted heating and cooling). I've never had an oil-fired boiler before; it also has a wood pellet boiler in parallel. Oddly, the house does not have a hot water tank... it depends on the oil-fired boiler.
The concept of firing up the furnace in the summer to get hot water is repugnant to me... especially since my oil-fired boiler is twenty years old and not very efficient.
The first major stage of renovation is improving the insulation. The basement is undeveloped; the rim joist has fibreglass batts pushed into it in around half of the openings... and zero vapour barrier... I'm going to strip out the old insulation and have closed cell spray insulation blown onto the rim joist and the foundation walls.
While I waiting for the insulation contractor to schedule me, I'm disassembling the rough shelves the previous owner built and rebuilding them to be movable. So this...
becomes this...
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@d_thomas02
It's good to read you've got some fun things going on. It's neat that you're doing the whole process including keeping cultures in reserve that you can plate out and get new grain spawn going. The whole shebang start to finish. Kudos on that! I still maintain some oak logs with shiitake plugs from a friend, and I may take on some more, but I'm not going to set up a lab. I wouldn't do that even if I had room. With all my paddling, rowing, and diving equipment - my house is full.
@UncleMac
Depending how many places you use hot water, you could consider a tankless "instant" hot water system or individual instant hot water heaters at each point of use. The point of use units are more water efficient and perhaps more energy efficient because you don't have to dump all the water in the pipe between a central unit and the point of use. But it's more electric devices to install and maintain. There is one liability with instant hot water - if you shower the Navy way or run hot water at a very slow rate, the heater turns on and off. My friend does "Navy showers," and when he turns the water back on, somewhere in the line is a little pulse of cold water that passes the heater in the moment it is turning on. My plumber calls that an "icewater sandwich." It's not just when you turn the water back on if it's a central unit. It hits you when that slug of cold water gets from the main heater to the shower head. Brrrr.
As for me, I'm now celebrating six months in retirement. Projects? I'm working on being a better person, and it's working. I made a commitment to myself that I wouldn't do any work for money for at least six months, and I'd just work on relaxing. It has been fabulous. I've been able to paddle my canoe quite a lot. I got in some hiking. I spent as much time in the garden as I wanted, and I never felt compelled to spend more if I didn't want to. I've generally just slowed down my pace a bit. I can walk to the post office rather than bike if I want because I have enough time. I helped a non-profit I support as a volunteer for three multi-day river trips, as a volunteer for invasive weed surveys and removal projects, and for trash clean-up projects. I have made time during the summer to just sit in the shade of a large Mimosa tree in my back yard and watch the grass grow and the birds take baths. Sometimes I even had a G&T. Lots of walking through the park. Catching up on overdue tree and shrub maintenance.
Most importantly, now that I don't have to get up at 05:00, I'm getting enough sleep almost every night. I'm surprised that I'm still getting up fairly early; that's fine. But I get more than six hours of sleep.
There may be more projects in the future. No telling what they'll be. I probably should rebuild my deck next year, but that's also assuming prices for materials come back down a little. I picked a bad time to retire if I want to use my assets - they lost a lot of the value I thought they had. I trust they'll come back. For now I am trying to live on what I'd earn if I went to work at McDonalds as a new employee.2 -
@d_thomas02, thank you for sharing your mushroom growing set-up and describing the process: Though it's beyond what I'd ever take on myself, it's fascinating to see how it's done.
@UncleMac, I'd underscore @mtaratoot's comment about tankless. I went with central tankless when I had to replace my standard tank gas water heater. It was substantially more expensive up front, but less expensive to operate (no heating water in the tank that one will never use), and the tankless unit (with proper maintenance) is said to last much longer than a tank model, so lifetime cost can be lower.(snip)
Depending how many places you use hot water, you could consider a tankless "instant" hot water system or individual instant hot water heaters at each point of use. The point of use units are more water efficient and perhaps more energy efficient because you don't have to dump all the water in the pipe between a central unit and the point of use. But it's more electric devices to install and maintain. There is one liability with instant hot water - if you shower the Navy way or run hot water at a very slow rate, the heater turns on and off. My friend does "Navy showers," and when he turns the water back on, somewhere in the line is a little pulse of cold water that passes the heater in the moment it is turning on. My plumber calls that an "icewater sandwich." It's not just when you turn the water back on if it's a central unit. It hits you when that slug of cold water gets from the main heater to the shower head. Brrrr.
(snip)
Unlike his friend, I don't take "Navy showers". I do try to keep it efficiently brief, but I leave the water on for the duration. The nice thing about tankless is that if one has company (lots of people showering one after the other), there's no concern about running out of hot water . . . and on that rare occasion when I want a really long shower for some reason (or just a lot of hot water for something else), there's hot water to infinity.
I like it.
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@UncleMac
Depending how many places you use hot water, you could consider a tankless "instant" hot water system or individual instant hot water heaters at each point of use.
I've never had a tankless HW heater but several friends have and echo what you're saying. I'll have a look at pricing for such. It would need to be electric... not interested in having oil, wood AND propane... lol@UncleMac, I'd underscore @mtaratoot's comment about tankless. I went with central tankless when I had to replace my standard tank gas water heater. It was substantially more expensive up front, but less expensive to operate (no heating water in the tank that one will never use), and the tankless unit (with proper maintenance) is said to last much longer than a tank model, so lifetime cost can be lower.
I am considering doing ground-based geothermal to replace the oil boiler. There are systems for radiant heating like I have which usually involves a two stage heat pump. The first stage (which goes to a closed ground loop system) is hot enough for standard hot water usage; the second stage is hotter as the baseboard radiants need near to boiling water... typically 185f...
That being said, there are a limited number of geothermal installers on Prince Edward Island... persuading them to come out and provide a quote has been challenging. Hell, getting them to reply to emails and phone calls has been challenging!! I'm frustrated enough that I'm considering just replacing the old oil boiler with a new high efficiency model... Given how the costs are skyrocketing on heating oil, that means I'll be using the pellet stove as the primary source of heat and only using oil when I'm not around to keep the hopper for the pellet stove full.
I haven't given up on geothermal yet but they're not making it easy.
The spray foam insulation provider was an interesting resource. His company also sells/installs mini-split heat pumps. I'm considering adding one of those for the "man cave" in the bonus room above the garage. Price is very attractive.0 -
@UncleMac
Depending how many places you use hot water, you could consider a tankless "instant" hot water system or individual instant hot water heaters at each point of use.
I've never had a tankless HW heater but several friends have and echo what you're saying. I'll have a look at pricing for such. It would need to be electric... not interested in having oil, wood AND propane... lol@UncleMac, I'd underscore @mtaratoot's comment about tankless. I went with central tankless when I had to replace my standard tank gas water heater. It was substantially more expensive up front, but less expensive to operate (no heating water in the tank that one will never use), and the tankless unit (with proper maintenance) is said to last much longer than a tank model, so lifetime cost can be lower.
I am considering doing ground-based geothermal to replace the oil boiler. There are systems for radiant heating like I have which usually involves a two stage heat pump. The first stage (which goes to a closed ground loop system) is hot enough for standard hot water usage; the second stage is hotter as the baseboard radiants need near to boiling water... typically 185f...
That being said, there are a limited number of geothermal installers on Prince Edward Island... persuading them to come out and provide a quote has been challenging. Hell, getting them to reply to emails and phone calls has been challenging!! I'm frustrated enough that I'm considering just replacing the old oil boiler with a new high efficiency model... Given how the costs are skyrocketing on heating oil, that means I'll be using the pellet stove as the primary source of heat and only using oil when I'm not around to keep the hopper for the pellet stove full.
I haven't given up on geothermal yet but they're not making it easy.
The spray foam insulation provider was an interesting resource. His company also sells/installs mini-split heat pumps. I'm considering adding one of those for the "man cave" in the bonus room above the garage. Price is very attractive.
FWIW: The only reason I went with a gas tankless was that my home already used natural gas for heating, cooking, and even clothes-drying, and I was replacing a gas tank water heater at that time (quite a few years back now). Over the next few years, my plan is to replace these gas appliances with electric (more sustainable) as they need to be replaced, but I need to upgrade my electrical service first, and soon - not enough capacity in the 1953-built home. In your position, I'd definitely go with electric tankless over gas, if that's an option. (I think the up front might be a little less for electric, too, but I think still more $$ than electric tank-type at initial purchase.)
In general, the only downside I've found with tankless is that in a power outage, there's no hot water, whereas with a tank system one had the tank full, for a bit (at least after I was relying on 'city water' vs. a well/pump). To me, that downside's not a huge deal . . . especially while I still have a gas stove, burners of which still work if there's a localized electrical outage.1 -
Oddly the "whole house" electric tankless HW heaters available locally have a 5 year guarantee... whereas they have lifetime guaranteed tanked HW heaters from the same manufacturer. The up front cost favour weighs well for the tankless by comparison to the lifetime tanked but if I end up having to replace it, that balances out. Same manufacturer has 6 year guaranteed tanked HW heaters for less than tankless.FWIW: The only reason I went with a gas tankless was that my home already used natural gas for heating, cooking, and even clothes-drying, and I was replacing a gas tank water heater at that time (quite a few years back now). Over the next few years, my plan is to replace these gas appliances with electric (more sustainable) as they need to be replaced, but I need to upgrade my electrical service first, and soon - not enough capacity in the 1953-built home. In your position, I'd definitely go with electric tankless over gas, if that's an option. (I think the up front might be a little less for electric, too, but I think still more $$ than electric tank-type at initial purchase.)
In general, the only downside I've found with tankless is that in a power outage, there's no hot water, whereas with a tank system one had the tank full, for a bit (at least after I was relying on 'city water' vs. a well/pump). To me, that downside's not a huge deal . . . especially while I still have a gas stove, burners of which still work if there's a localized electrical outage.
Interestingly, none of the electric tankless HW heaters earn the EnergyStar rating although some of the propane/natural gas tankless do...0 -
Oddly the "whole house" electric tankless HW heaters available locally have a 5 year guarantee... whereas they have lifetime guaranteed tanked HW heaters from the same manufacturer. The up front cost favour weighs well for the tankless by comparison to the lifetime tanked but if I end up having to replace it, that balances out. Same manufacturer has 6 year guaranteed tanked HW heaters for less than tankless.FWIW: The only reason I went with a gas tankless was that my home already used natural gas for heating, cooking, and even clothes-drying, and I was replacing a gas tank water heater at that time (quite a few years back now). Over the next few years, my plan is to replace these gas appliances with electric (more sustainable) as they need to be replaced, but I need to upgrade my electrical service first, and soon - not enough capacity in the 1953-built home. In your position, I'd definitely go with electric tankless over gas, if that's an option. (I think the up front might be a little less for electric, too, but I think still more $$ than electric tank-type at initial purchase.)
In general, the only downside I've found with tankless is that in a power outage, there's no hot water, whereas with a tank system one had the tank full, for a bit (at least after I was relying on 'city water' vs. a well/pump). To me, that downside's not a huge deal . . . especially while I still have a gas stove, burners of which still work if there's a localized electrical outage.
Interestingly, none of the electric tankless HW heaters earn the EnergyStar rating although some of the propane/natural gas tankless do...
Clearly, some things differ where you are from here - at least compared with the time I bought mine, which is quite a few years back now (don't recall exactly when, without looking it up, but definitely 5+). Maybe also matters that I was only comparing gas tank-type vs. gas tankless, given my overall situation.
I think the Energy Star ratings are within a product category based on specific criteria, and the US Energy Star web site doesn't even have a category for electric standard tank-type water heaters on their products page. The only energy star rated electric ones seem to be hybrid electric/heat-pump.1 -
The federal and provincial governments here in Canada are offering rebates for for energy efficient upgrades and they put huge emphasis on EnergyStar for some reason. That's why I'm looking so closely at each decision. Plus being on a fixed income, I'm being cautious of my purchases.Clearly, some things differ where you are from here - at least compared with the time I bought mine, which is quite a few years back now (don't recall exactly when, without looking it up, but definitely 5+). Maybe also matters that I was only comparing gas tank-type vs. gas tankless, given my overall situation.
I think the Energy Star ratings are within a product category based on specific criteria, and the US Energy Star web site doesn't even have a category for electric standard tank-type water heaters on their products page. The only energy star rated electric ones seem to be hybrid electric/heat-pump.0 -
The federal and provincial governments here in Canada are offering rebates for for energy efficient upgrades and they put huge emphasis on EnergyStar for some reason. That's why I'm looking so closely at each decision. Plus being on a fixed income, I'm being cautious of my purchases.Clearly, some things differ where you are from here - at least compared with the time I bought mine, which is quite a few years back now (don't recall exactly when, without looking it up, but definitely 5+). Maybe also matters that I was only comparing gas tank-type vs. gas tankless, given my overall situation.
I think the Energy Star ratings are within a product based on specific criteria, and the US Energy Star web site doesn't even have a category for electric standard tank-type water heaters on their products page. The only energy star rated electric ones seem to be hybrid electric/heat-pump.
The US energy star people seem breathlessly excited about electric hybrid heat pump water heaters (about which I know nothing beyond that). They seem to have some storage capacity, but I have zero idea how the start up cost or lifespan compare to the other types. There are quite a few electric/heat pump hybrids that are energy star rated, though.1 -
The US energy star people seem breathlessly excited about electric hybrid heat pump water heaters (about which I know nothing beyond that). They seem to have some storage capacity, but I have zero idea how the start up cost or lifespan compare to the other types. There are quite a few electric/heat pump hybrids that are energy star rated, though.
The supplier's website prominently featured heat pump hybrid HW tanks. Six year guarantee. They're costly but the reduced use of electricity pays back the extra cost within a few years. I expect that's also dependent on usage. Since it's just my wife and I, it might take longer.1 -
FWIW: The only reason I went with a gas tankless was that my home already used natural gas for heating, cooking, and even clothes-drying, and I was replacing a gas tank water heater at that time (quite a few years back now). Over the next few years, my plan is to replace these gas appliances with electric (more sustainable) as they need to be replaced, but I need to upgrade my electrical service first, and soon - not enough capacity in the 1953-built home. In your position, I'd definitely go with electric tankless over gas, if that's an option. (I think the up front might be a little less for electric, too, but I think still more $$ than electric tank-type at initial purchase.)
In general, the only downside I've found with tankless is that in a power outage, there's no hot water, whereas with a tank system one had the tank full, for a bit (at least after I was relying on 'city water' vs. a well/pump). To me, that downside's not a huge deal . . . especially while I still have a gas stove, burners of which still work if there's a localized electrical outage.
Oddly the "whole house" electric tankless HW heaters available locally have a 5 year guarantee... whereas they have lifetime guaranteed tanked HW heaters from the same manufacturer. The up front cost favour weighs well for the tankless by comparison to the lifetime tanked but if I end up having to replace it, that balances out. Same manufacturer has 6 year guaranteed tanked HW heaters for less than tankless.
Interestingly, none of the electric tankless HW heaters earn the EnergyStar rating although some of the propane/natural gas tankless do...
Have your water tested for hardness before pulling the trigger on tankless. Tankless have no ability to deal with scale buildup. If you don't have soft water, I'd be surprised if the installer didn't want you to have a whole house softener before selling you tankless. And home softeners have their own list of cons, ion exchanges dump a bunch of salt into the drains with each regeneration and the resin beads have a life of about 5 years, less if you have iron in the water. RO membranes are prone to biofouling, so you'll need to add a UV system if you are on an unchlorinated system, and both the membranes and UV bulbs have a life of about a year.
Electric tanked water heaters deal with hard water better than any other water heater, and with proper monthly maintenance, can last a lifetime.
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As part of the real estate deal, I required the seller to have the well tested. The water is slightly hard but not enough to cause issues. There is no conditioning on the water; not even a sediment filter.d_thomas02 wrote: »Have your water tested for hardness before pulling the trigger on tankless. Tankless have no ability to deal with scale buildup. If you don't have soft water, I'd be surprised if the installer didn't want you to have a whole house softener before selling you tankless. And home softeners have their own list of cons, ion exchanges dump a bunch of salt into the drains with each regeneration and the resin beads have a life of about 5 years, less if you have iron in the water. RO membranes are prone to biofouling, so you'll need to add a UV system if you are on an unchlorinated system, and both the membranes and UV bulbs have a life of about a year.
Electric tanked water heaters deal with hard water better than any other water heater, and with proper monthly maintenance, can last a lifetime.
I've never heard of monthly maintenance on hot water tanks. I've heard of replacing sacrificial anodes periodically (every five years by memory) but that's about it.0 -
d_thomas02 wrote: »FWIW: The only reason I went with a gas tankless was that my home already used natural gas for heating, cooking, and even clothes-drying, and I was replacing a gas tank water heater at that time (quite a few years back now). Over the next few years, my plan is to replace these gas appliances with electric (more sustainable) as they need to be replaced, but I need to upgrade my electrical service first, and soon - not enough capacity in the 1953-built home. In your position, I'd definitely go with electric tankless over gas, if that's an option. (I think the up front might be a little less for electric, too, but I think still more $$ than electric tank-type at initial purchase.)
In general, the only downside I've found with tankless is that in a power outage, there's no hot water, whereas with a tank system one had the tank full, for a bit (at least after I was relying on 'city water' vs. a well/pump). To me, that downside's not a huge deal . . . especially while I still have a gas stove, burners of which still work if there's a localized electrical outage.
Oddly the "whole house" electric tankless HW heaters available locally have a 5 year guarantee... whereas they have lifetime guaranteed tanked HW heaters from the same manufacturer. The up front cost favour weighs well for the tankless by comparison to the lifetime tanked but if I end up having to replace it, that balances out. Same manufacturer has 6 year guaranteed tanked HW heaters for less than tankless.
Interestingly, none of the electric tankless HW heaters earn the EnergyStar rating although some of the propane/natural gas tankless do...
Have your water tested for hardness before pulling the trigger on tankless. Tankless have no ability to deal with scale buildup. If you don't have soft water, I'd be surprised if the installer didn't want you to have a whole house softener before selling you tankless. And home softeners have their own list of cons, ion exchanges dump a bunch of salt into the drains with each regeneration and the resin beads have a life of about 5 years, less if you have iron in the water. RO membranes are prone to biofouling, so you'll need to add a UV system if you are on an unchlorinated system, and both the membranes and UV bulbs have a life of about a year.
Electric tanked water heaters deal with hard water better than any other water heater, and with proper monthly maintenance, can last a lifetime.
My tankless water heater is intended to be flushed periodically with a special solution to counter buildup. In theory, for a normal family it'd be every year, but given my level of hot water use (one person household), every couple of years is fine. (The city water here is not terribly hard.) The flushing is a thing a home handyperson can do, but I'm lazier than that, so have the plumbers who installed it do it. I don't remember how much that cost last time, but it isn't some crazy-huge number.1 -
My well water is very hard, around 300-350 mg/L (17-20 grains/gal). Monthly maintenance on electric tank water heaters consists of flushing the sediment out of the bottom of the tank. A chunk of sediment can get trapped in the drain valve causing it to leak a bit when you shut it down. A hose end cap can solve that issue.1
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Mine is 146 mg/l so regular maintenance would be a good idea. I've seen others replace the cheapo plastic drain valve with a ball valve... I might do that and make life easier for myself. lold_thomas02 wrote: »My well water is very hard, around 300-350 mg/L (17-20 grains/gal). Monthly maintenance on electric tank water heaters consists of flushing the sediment out of the bottom of the tank. A chunk of sediment can get trapped in the drain valve causing it to leak a bit when you shut it down. A hose end cap can solve that issue.0 -
Our surface water sources are soft. One is about 25 mg/L, and the other is about 40 mg/L.
I still flush out my tank annually. Twice a year would be better, perhaps, but I do it annually. I wish I had replaced the plastic drain valve with a brass one when the tank was new. Oh well.
I never do it in the winter. Our water consumption is averaged from December through April. They call it the Winter Quarter even though it's a third of the year. We pay wastewater fees for all water measured during Winter Quarter, then during the rest of the year we pay whatever is lower, actual use or winter quarter average. Wastewater is about twice as expensive as water, and the utility assumes any "extra" water I use when it's not winter is used outdoors. It is. Irrigation, pressure washing, dumping hot water....
Electric or gas, it's important to flush the tank. There can be sediment in the distribution system even if it's soft water. That sediment can create a hot spot on the glass and cause premature failure. Without a tank, I presume this isn't as much of an issue with tankless water heaters. I can still see how scale build-up could be an issue if you have hard water. The last place I lived had very hard water; it was delicious.
For sure you'll want to replace the sacrificial anode before it's all gone. Once it's used up, the heater itself will be sacrificed, and it will soon fail.
I might put in a tankless system next time. My house is 75 years old, and it only has a 100 amp panel. I can't expand my electric system; that's one reason I don't have an electric car. No room on the panel. However, if I took the water heater off the panel, maybe there's enough amps to run a tankless unit.
Many years ago, a colleague asked me, "How long do you have to be on vacation before it saves energy to turn the water heater down or off?" I am surprised I had to think of it at all - it's the very first time that the element would have turned itself on to keep the stored water at temperature. Let it cool five degrees or 70 degrees - it still takes energy to raise it. It takes more energy to raise warm water by the same amount, so you're really better off letting it cool completely; just means it will take a while to heat back up. I can't do that on my water heater; the thermostats are inside, and they're kind of finicky.
Same kind of thing happens with my gas furnace; it is most efficient when it runs a long time. I have the temperature set to drop to 57 degrees overnight and then be up to 65 at 07:15. It drops back to 60 at 09:00 unless I bump it back up and comes back up again after 17:00. The salesman told me 17 years ago that it would be the last furnace I ever put in this house. I hope he's right. I just had my annual service, and they said it's doing very well for its age. Yikes!2
