Dinner date- who pays?
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He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
Hmmm, respect is annoying to you.
You're a tough one to figure out.
Really don't enjoy feeling awkward at Sunday dinner trying to eat with my friend standing over me half the time.. like I said, to each his own. Most of the girls at the table swoon over it. I wish he would have just dated one of them, stand for her, and let that be it.0 -
By law, the girl is not allowed to pay . .ever. .
ever!0 -
By law, the girl is not allowed to pay . .ever. .
ever!
Someone is winning brownie points with all the ladies!!!0 -
It's a shame that there are douche bags like that and I can't stand being put in the same basket, considering myself to be a genuine all round good guy.
One person's all-round-good guy is another person's bad date story.
As an example, I have a friend who is the ultimate gentleman, to the point where he always stands when a woman approaches or leaves the table. I find it extremely annoying since our dinner groups boast 6-7 women each time and most of us know half the town so we're always getting up to say hi to someone. He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
And, no, I'm not just saying this because you're asking in another thread if a woman you meet in the near future would be upset that you're already planning a trip with a hot girl 3-4 months from now. I wouldn't fault a guy for that (but I wouln't be exclusive with him either), but many girls I know would consider that douchy behavior.
I don't think there are any right or wrong answers here, just what works for your life.
sorry but i'd laugh if a guy did that or take his chair. doesn't he have any guy friends?0 -
He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
Hmmm, respect is annoying to you.
You're a tough one to figure out.
Really don't enjoy feeling awkward at Sunday dinner trying to eat with my friend standing over me half the time.. like I said, to each his own. Most of the girls at the table swoon over it. I wish he would have just dated one of them, stand for her, and let that be it.
You're not the one standing, why are you feeling awkward?
Unless you're one of those who just cares too much about what other people think about you...
Sounds like it. To each his own is correct. But don't hate on him b/c he's got manners and is polite. It's not a nice trait.0 -
He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
Hmmm, respect is annoying to you.
You're a tough one to figure out.
Really don't enjoy feeling awkward at Sunday dinner trying to eat with my friend standing over me half the time.. like I said, to each his own. Most of the girls at the table swoon over it. I wish he would have just dated one of them, stand for her, and let that be it.
Would it annoy you if he only stood once, or perhaps twice - as each woman arrived and was leaving? I agree that every time a female moves around seems a tad excessive, though very, very well mannered! I do think standing when a lady enters or leaves the room is a tradition that should be encouraged/revived where possible. I was at a dinner in a private members club a few weeks ago, and walked into the bar area to continue a conversation I'd started during the meal. Another group, exclusively male, was already in there, and without exception, every last one of them stood as I entered - it was profoundly flattering, and I felt both respected and appreciated. Sadly, they left before I did
Any man who stands as a lady arrives/leaves wins serious brownie points from me! This probably belongs over on the Chivalry thread, but the practice was once explained to me as a gesture of appreciation for being granted the privilege/honour of a lady's company, and historically, an indication that the men she was joining were gentlemen, and her trust/reputation would not be abused by joining them. I rather like that.0 -
ive been on two dinner dates with the same guy within a week and I offer to pay (i dont want to come across as a snob) and we just split the check in half (our meals are like a dollar different so really no big deal)0
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He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
Hmmm, respect is annoying to you.
You're a tough one to figure out.
Really don't enjoy feeling awkward at Sunday dinner trying to eat with my friend standing over me half the time.. like I said, to each his own. Most of the girls at the table swoon over it. I wish he would have just dated one of them, stand for her, and let that be it.
Would it annoy you if he only stood once, or perhaps twice - as each woman arrived and was leaving? I agree that every time a female moves around seems a tad excessive, though very, very well mannered! I do think standing when a lady enters or leaves the room is a tradition that should be encouraged/revived where possible. I was at a dinner in a private members club a few weeks ago, and walked into the bar area to continue a conversation I'd started during the meal. Another group, exclusively male, was already in there, and without exception, every last one of them stood as I entered - it was profoundly flattering, and I felt both respected and appreciated. Sadly, they left before I did
Any man who stands as a lady arrives/leaves wins serious brownie points from me! This probably belongs over on the Chivalry thread, but the practice was once explained to me as a gesture of appreciation for being granted the privilege/honour of a lady's company, and historically, an indication that the men she was joining were gentlemen, and her trust/reputation would not be abused by joining them. I rather like that.
I am certainly not in favor of being impolite but as a side note for accuracy those customs came from an era where women were considered possessions and not persons.
Be careful about romanticizing things outside of the context in which they existed.0 -
He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
Hmmm, respect is annoying to you.
You're a tough one to figure out.
Really don't enjoy feeling awkward at Sunday dinner trying to eat with my friend standing over me half the time.. like I said, to each his own. Most of the girls at the table swoon over it. I wish he would have just dated one of them, stand for her, and let that be it.
Would it annoy you if he only stood once, or perhaps twice - as each woman arrived and was leaving? I agree that every time a female moves around seems a tad excessive, though very, very well mannered! I do think standing when a lady enters or leaves the room is a tradition that should be encouraged/revived where possible. I was at a dinner in a private members club a few weeks ago, and walked into the bar area to continue a conversation I'd started during the meal. Another group, exclusively male, was already in there, and without exception, every last one of them stood as I entered - it was profoundly flattering, and I felt both respected and appreciated. Sadly, they left before I did
Any man who stands as a lady arrives/leaves wins serious brownie points from me! This probably belongs over on the Chivalry thread, but the practice was once explained to me as a gesture of appreciation for being granted the privilege/honour of a lady's company, and historically, an indication that the men she was joining were gentlemen, and her trust/reputation would not be abused by joining them. I rather like that.
I am certainly not in favor of being impolite but as a side note for accuracy those customs came from an era where women were considered possessions and not persons.
Be careful about romanticizing things outside of the context in which they existed.
I think this particular custom, while it does date from an era where women's status was problematic, is a gesture of respect for a woman as a person, rather than as a possession - an acknowledgement that she is independently making the choice to trust a man, a trust expressed by spending time with him, and a reassurance that her trust will not be abused because the man in question is, at least ostensibly, a gentleman. Certainly, the risk to a lady's reputation of spending time with a male is much less of an issue now, but trust is still a valuable commodity. I don't think I'm romanticising out of context at all - British/European society is still much more formal than American society is inclined to be, and standing for a lady is quite a common occurrence in some spheres, though the en masse 'stand' I described happens less frequently!0 -
He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
Hmmm, respect is annoying to you.
You're a tough one to figure out.
Really don't enjoy feeling awkward at Sunday dinner trying to eat with my friend standing over me half the time.. like I said, to each his own. Most of the girls at the table swoon over it. I wish he would have just dated one of them, stand for her, and let that be it.
Would it annoy you if he only stood once, or perhaps twice - as each woman arrived and was leaving? I agree that every time a female moves around seems a tad excessive, though very, very well mannered! I do think standing when a lady enters or leaves the room is a tradition that should be encouraged/revived where possible. I was at a dinner in a private members club a few weeks ago, and walked into the bar area to continue a conversation I'd started during the meal. Another group, exclusively male, was already in there, and without exception, every last one of them stood as I entered - it was profoundly flattering, and I felt both respected and appreciated. Sadly, they left before I did
Any man who stands as a lady arrives/leaves wins serious brownie points from me! This probably belongs over on the Chivalry thread, but the practice was once explained to me as a gesture of appreciation for being granted the privilege/honour of a lady's company, and historically, an indication that the men she was joining were gentlemen, and her trust/reputation would not be abused by joining them. I rather like that.
I am certainly not in favor of being impolite but as a side note for accuracy those customs came from an era where women were considered possessions and not persons.
Be careful about romanticizing things outside of the context in which they existed.
I think this particular custom, while it does date from an era where women's status was problematic, is a gesture of respect for a woman as a person, rather than as a possession - an acknowledgement that she is independently making the choice to trust a man, a trust expressed by spending time with him, and a reassurance that her trust will not be abused because the man in question is, at least ostensibly, a gentleman. Certainly, the risk to a lady's reputation of spending time with a male is much less of an issue now, but trust is still a valuable commodity. I don't think I'm romanticising out of context at all - British/European society is still much more formal than American society is inclined to be, and standing for a lady is quite a common occurrence in some spheres, though the en masse 'stand' I described happens less frequently!
Bear in mind as well that it was not customary or considered appropriate for a woman to normally enter or be in a room with men at the time either.
The her place is in the kitchen and bedroom mentality.
That was all I was pointing out,trying to interject what we want into a custom may ignore some elements of it not so pleasant.0 -
He spends half the meal standing. My friends find it gentlemanly and endearing. I find it annoying.
Hmmm, respect is annoying to you.
You're a tough one to figure out.
Really don't enjoy feeling awkward at Sunday dinner trying to eat with my friend standing over me half the time.. like I said, to each his own. Most of the girls at the table swoon over it. I wish he would have just dated one of them, stand for her, and let that be it.
Would it annoy you if he only stood once, or perhaps twice - as each woman arrived and was leaving? I agree that every time a female moves around seems a tad excessive, though very, very well mannered! I do think standing when a lady enters or leaves the room is a tradition that should be encouraged/revived where possible. I was at a dinner in a private members club a few weeks ago, and walked into the bar area to continue a conversation I'd started during the meal. Another group, exclusively male, was already in there, and without exception, every last one of them stood as I entered - it was profoundly flattering, and I felt both respected and appreciated. Sadly, they left before I did
Any man who stands as a lady arrives/leaves wins serious brownie points from me! This probably belongs over on the Chivalry thread, but the practice was once explained to me as a gesture of appreciation for being granted the privilege/honour of a lady's company, and historically, an indication that the men she was joining were gentlemen, and her trust/reputation would not be abused by joining them. I rather like that.
I am certainly not in favor of being impolite but as a side note for accuracy those customs came from an era where women were considered possessions and not persons.
Be careful about romanticizing things outside of the context in which they existed.
I think this particular custom, while it does date from an era where women's status was problematic, is a gesture of respect for a woman as a person, rather than as a possession - an acknowledgement that she is independently making the choice to trust a man, a trust expressed by spending time with him, and a reassurance that her trust will not be abused because the man in question is, at least ostensibly, a gentleman. Certainly, the risk to a lady's reputation of spending time with a male is much less of an issue now, but trust is still a valuable commodity. I don't think I'm romanticising out of context at all - British/European society is still much more formal than American society is inclined to be, and standing for a lady is quite a common occurrence in some spheres, though the en masse 'stand' I described happens less frequently!
Bear in mind as well that it was not customary or considered appropriate for a woman to normally enter or be in a room with men at the time either.
The her place is in the kitchen and bedroom mentality.
That was all I was pointing out,trying to interject what we want into a custom may ignore some elements of it not so pleasant.
Depends on your context - you wouldn't have found many upper-middle-class or upper-class ladies in the kitchen or, in that sense, in the bedroom either! Far more likely they'd be in the drawing room with the gentlemen, who would have stood as a lady entered and left the room, acknowledging that she was putting her trust in their good character by spending time with them. Men and women did interact at all levels of society, just under different rules and more formal structures than we do now. I do take the point you're trying to make, but I'm not sure that certain negative historical elements of a tradition are a good enough reason to jettison or reject all the good things about it in a contemporary setting, where the majority of the negatives are no longer applicable. A lot of the things we consider 'good manners', and not just in relation to gender relations, have not-entirely-laudable roots.0 -
I agree with your post (not necessarily on a personal level, but from a logical standpoint I think you are 100% right), but two things for me:
I think this particular custom, while it does date from an era where women's status was problematic, is a gesture of respect for a woman as a person, rather than as a possession - an acknowledgement that she is independently making the choice to trust a man, a trust expressed by spending time with him, and a reassurance that her trust will not be abused because the man in question is, at least ostensibly, a gentleman. Certainly, the risk to a lady's reputation of spending time with a male is much less of an issue now, but trust is still a valuable commodity. I don't think I'm romanticising out of context at all - British/European society is still much more formal than American society is inclined to be, and standing for a lady is quite a common occurrence in some spheres, though the en masse 'stand' I described happens less frequently!I am certainly not in favor of being impolite but as a side note for accuracy those customs came from an era where women were considered possessions and not persons.
Be careful about romanticizing things outside of the context in which they existed.
- "at least ostensibly, a gentleman": I think you can also be a gentleman without being ostensible about it as well. I know most of the social expectations but I'll set my own limits to them, so that it doesn't become excessive (I would call standing every time a girl is entering the room extreme correctness, and would probably not do it).
- For me "politeness" with people goes in the way of "rawness" with people. I don't mind a bit of politeness, particularly with strangers, but when I want to know someone on a more personal level, I'd rather be "raw" with them, i.e. exposed, and have them expose themselves. For me politeness adds a layer of restraint and constraint to the communication, which is undesirable.0 -
I agree with your post (not necessarily on a personal level, but from a logical standpoint I think you are 100% right), but two things for me:
I think this particular custom, while it does date from an era where women's status was problematic, is a gesture of respect for a woman as a person, rather than as a possession - an acknowledgement that she is independently making the choice to trust a man, a trust expressed by spending time with him, and a reassurance that her trust will not be abused because the man in question is, at least ostensibly, a gentleman. Certainly, the risk to a lady's reputation of spending time with a male is much less of an issue now, but trust is still a valuable commodity. I don't think I'm romanticising out of context at all - British/European society is still much more formal than American society is inclined to be, and standing for a lady is quite a common occurrence in some spheres, though the en masse 'stand' I described happens less frequently!I am certainly not in favor of being impolite but as a side note for accuracy those customs came from an era where women were considered possessions and not persons.
Be careful about romanticizing things outside of the context in which they existed.
- "at least ostensibly, a gentleman": I think you can also be a gentleman without being ostensible about it as well. I know most of the social expectations but I'll set my own limits to them, so that it doesn't become excessive (I would call standing every time a girl is entering the room extreme correctness, and would probably not do it).
Absolutely you can be, it's just that standing for a lady was considered one of the outward signs of a male's 'gentle' or polite upbringing, hence my use of the word 'ostensibly'. The appearance of a thing does not always accurately convey its' inner character, as we all know!- For me "politeness" with people goes in the way of "rawness" with people. I don't mind a bit of politeness, particularly with strangers, but when I want to know someone on a more personal level, I'd rather be "raw" with them, i.e. exposed, and have them expose themselves. For me politeness adds a layer of restraint and constraint to the communication, which is undesirable.
Sure, and I wouldn't argue with that. I guess it depends on your definition of politeness - for me it comes in two parts: courtesy and convention. I expect basic courtesy from everyone, and offer the same in return. With someone I know well or wish to know better, the restraint of convention may well go out the window, but the courtesy will remain - a concern for someone's comfort and well-being, rather than an imposed code of conduct.0 -
An interesting read...
http://www.bartleby.com/95/4.html
Listen,I am not knocking anyones desire to be considered a gentleman.
I was just pointing out that these customs did not arise from a lost and to be mourned era where women were treated with respect and dignity because they were not.
Women were expected to bow to a gentleman,a symbol of submission and subservience.
I am guessing that tradition won`t be highly thought of anymore.
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An interesting read...
http://www.bartleby.com/95/4.html
Listen,I am not knocking anyones desire to be considered a gentleman.
I was just pointing out that these customs did not arise from a lost and to be mourned era where women were treated with respect and dignity because they were not.
Women were expected to bow to a gentleman,a symbol of submission and subservience.
I am guessing that tradition won`t be highly thought of anymore.
Umm, or 'bow, as in 'incline the head and/or upper body in a gesture of acknowledgement' ? Bowing need not be servile, was a multi-gendered form of acknowledgement (men and women alike bowed to their own sex as well as the opposite), and provided a good alternative to hand-shaking, which was generally not for public greetings, and especially not for women in public. And don't forget that a lady always had the option of bowing or not (hence why she bows, or in modern times, offers her hand, first), depending on whether or not she wished to acknowledge the man - the ball, socially speaking, was entirely in her court in this regard in 'polite society' (See "The Cut Direct" further down your link - very interesting, btw!).
I think in many ways, women were "treated with respect and dignity" in previous eras - the lack of certain rights does not automatically infer a lack of respect in all areas. But that's a very long argument with no definitive answer - we seem to have got off-topic a bit - my apologies to all.0 -
You're not the one standing, why are you feeling awkward?
Unless you're one of those who just cares too much about what other people think about you...
Sounds like it. To each his own is correct. But don't hate on him b/c he's got manners and is polite. It's not a nice trait.
Since we're all being honest...lol... it annoyed me because I really liked the guy, he was one of very few guys who didn't return my interest (yes, I'm vain, I admit it) and it's really hard to flirt with someone who's standing half the meal I'm over it now, but I still wish he would just limit it to when they first arrive/leave and/or when he finally starts going out with someone.
Getting back on topic... this guy is also one of my platonic guy friends who always pays on a date, and often pays for those of us ladies who are just friends. He is single *only* because he wants to be. The women all adore him and wish he would date them.0 -
You're not the one standing, why are you feeling awkward?
Unless you're one of those who just cares too much about what other people think about you...
Sounds like it. To each his own is correct. But don't hate on him b/c he's got manners and is polite. It's not a nice trait.
Since we're all being honest...lol... it annoyed me because I really liked the guy, he was one of very few guys who didn't return my interest (yes, I'm vain, I admit it) and it's really hard to flirt with someone who's standing half the meal I'm over it now, but I still wish he would just limit it to when they first arrive/leave and/or when he finally starts going out with someone.
Getting back on topic... this guy is also one of my platonic guy friends who always pays on a date, and often pays for those of us ladies who are just friends. He is single *only* because he wants to be. The women all adore him and wish he would date them.
Aha! Totally understand your reasoning, then! As for the platonic guy who pays for 'friends' - I have one or two of those too (you replied to my comment about one in particular on the chivalry thread). Universally popular, and either taken or single by choice. Sigh. 0 -
You're not the one standing, why are you feeling awkward?
Unless you're one of those who just cares too much about what other people think about you...
Sounds like it. To each his own is correct. But don't hate on him b/c he's got manners and is polite. It's not a nice trait.
Since we're all being honest...lol... it annoyed me because I really liked the guy, he was one of very few guys who didn't return my interest (yes, I'm vain, I admit it) and it's really hard to flirt with someone who's standing half the meal I'm over it now, but I still wish he would just limit it to when they first arrive/leave and/or when he finally starts going out with someone.
Getting back on topic... this guy is also one of my platonic guy friends who always pays on a date, and often pays for those of us ladies who are just friends. He is single *only* because he wants to be. The women all adore him and wish he would date them.
So in fact it wasn't b/c he was doing it, it's b/c he didn't like you back.0 -
I don't ask guys out ever so he'll pay at first... but if we're out having drinks I will offer to get a round or so. Later on if we start to date more often, I'd definately help out paying for dinner or events every now and then.
This.0 -
Maybe this is because the only boyfriend I've had was a cheap somebody and even if he did pay I ended up paying double that at some point somehow -- anyway, I believe in paying for myself. Not that I date. I've never really been on a "date" that I can recall. My boyfriend and I met on a state school trip so the first year was long distance and so by the time we were together at college we didn't "date" -- we were a couple. If there's a difference. So, if I were to date I would pay for myself. Maybe that's because I don't think it would make it to future dates. Who knows. At least he wouldn't be out of anything.0
