The mythical "ideal partner" (?)
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I think a lot of beauty is controllable. Being height-weight proportionate is controllable to a significant extent. One has to have the discipline to stick to a regimented caloric intake and exercise plan. Notice that female supermodels have flat stomachs. It's not superficial and shallow to watch your diet and exercise habits.
I'm good at tennis, but I didn't put enough effort into it to play on the ATP tour.
Not enough effort, or was your talent not sufficient to get you to the ATP in the first place? That's not meant to be insulting in any way, but rather to point out that hard work is not often the only factor in success. People's talents, much like their looks, are partly dictated by nature, partly by nurture. One person's talent may carry them to the ATP, La Scala, partnership at Goldman Sachs, or their looks may make them a Victoria's Secret Angel, and certainly none of those things are achieved without significant amounts of hard work and sacrifice - whether that's a social life or a full stomach. Others may work just as hard, and sacrifice as much, or more, but are simply less talented, or less good-looking to start with. These people, regardless of their efforts and sacrifices, may never play tennis at Wimbledon, sing at the Carnegie Hall, earn a multi-million dollar bonus, or bestride a catwalk.
One of the great strengths of humanity is its' variety. Not all women can, or should, be expected to look like supermodels, any more than all men can, or should, be expected to be financial masters of the universe or professional sportsmen. I think all (or most, at least) of the women here are in agreement that it is generally wise - self-serving, even - to make the most of what is naturally present. The same applies to the men, I'm sure. However, this does not mean that we can, or should, all aspire to fit the currently-fashionable physical or visual ideal. There is beauty in many things, not just a 5'10", size-2, c-cup, blow-dried-hair and huge eyes body with a conventionally 'pretty' face. Ignoring the fact that this 'ideal' is physically-achievable for less than 5% of the population to start with, how utterly boring and banal the world would be without the magnificent variety of sizes, shapes, colouring and abilities that exists, if we were to attempt to create a completely homogenous species. Those who have tried (Hitler, to name a relatively-recent example), have, without exception, failed. We are not designed to be homogenous, and it is not an aim that is wise to pursue. I don't imagine that's what you are really advocating, but that is the message that is often received by women, in regards to their looks, and is the logical conclusion of what you, and others, have said here - that unless you are one of the lucky <5% (and perhaps the 5-10% who can come 'close enough'), and are willing to make any and all sacrifices necessary to meet the demands of the current 'ideal', then your worth, your value, is essentially nil.
On a separate note, you mention that supermodels have flat stomachs. It is interesting to observe that, as the 'ideal' female shape has become thinner and thinner, with lower body-fat idealised and a feminine roundedness condemned, that the uptake of fertility treatment has soared. Women's stomachs aren't really meant to be absolutely flat - at least not if they are also to be fertile. The body quite simply will not allow pregnancy to occur naturally when body-fat is so low as to achieve this. It's not a healthy goal for any woman who wishes to have children. Proportionality? Fine. Ultra-low body fat, a flat stomach, a thigh gap - not so much, unless you are one of the very, very few women for whom this is natural to their physique.0 -
@Castadiva. Most men are reasonable and don't expect their partner to be 5'10", C-cup, and have perfectly flat stomach. What I want is a partner who makes an effort to look good. I'm not expecting perfection, but I do expect a certain level of effort. Physical characteristics, like height and facial structure are way beyond anyone's control, therefore most men are very reasonable when it comes to traits like that.
I think this is why men and women get offended when they are discriminated against because they aren't tall enough. As a medium height man, I'm sure I've been on the receiving end of that many times... and I'm OK with that. I always hope I have enough positive controllable characteristics to make up for the fact that I'm under 6'0".
As they saying goes, "The fair is where you get cotton candy, life isn't fair."0 -
Being tall as a women isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me. I'm 5'11 and a size 4 and I don't have flocks of men lined up in my backyard...LOL
There are days where I'd love to be 5'2, petite and cute. I'll never be cute. When your nicknames are "Amazon" and "Xena", life isn't that awesome!0 -
Being tall as a women isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me. I'm 5'11 and a size 4 and I don't have flocks of men lined up in my backyard...LOL
There are days where I'd love to be 5'2, petite and cute. I'll never be cute. When your nicknames are "Amazon" and "Xena", life isn't that awesome!
Xena is a great compliment. Lucy Lawless is a babe!0 -
Being tall as a women isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me. I'm 5'11 and a size 4 and I don't have flocks of men lined up in my backyard...LOL
There are days where I'd love to be 5'2, petite and cute. I'll never be cute. When your nicknames are "Amazon" and "Xena", life isn't that awesome!
Hey I love being called Amazon. Its one of my favorite nicknames0 -
5'10", size 2, c-cup was just an arbitrary set of stats - most models seem to be around this sort of physique (maybe not in the bust!)... The point is that any arbitrary physical/visual ideal is fairly pointless in the face of the endless variety around us.
kristen - my sympathies. 5'8" in bare feet is tall enough to cause issues (with shoe shopping, as well as men:laugh: ), and my sister is just fractionally under 6', so I know what you mean - neither of us will ever be 'cute' either. Mind you, my sister is a trainee surgeon who plays ice-hockey on the boys' team, as the girls were all too slow/wimpy/she thought she might have to operate on the ice if she ever fell on any of them, so I'm not sure 'cute' is among her desired epithets! :laugh:0 -
I love my 5'2" self, but it took a long time to get here.
Growing up, and even through my marriage, I struggled with self esteem issues as I envied the taller women. I felt like a child, and often heard the "oh, you're so cute" or "adorable". While I know now that people meant nothing by good things by it, hearing that always made me want to run.0 -
Clearly there are physics that attract people (on average) more. (I didn't say average people)5'10", size 2, c-cup was just an arbitrary set of stats - most models seem to be around this sort of physique (maybe not in the bust!)... The point is that any arbitrary physical/visual ideal is fairly pointless in the face of the endless variety around us.
Most people from a particular context/background would agree on who is generally attractive or not.
True, it would be pointless to say this is an absolute "ideal" (i.e. shared by every person, in all societies, at all time in the past and in the future) because it isn't possible.
However, at the scale of our lifetime, to say that there is a physical ideal now and here is true (without however going into the specifics of what constitutes this ideal).
Also, it has been proven that beauty was the average of people's faces, and that symmetry in the face was desirable. Not perfect symmetry however (but general harmony). These basic bricks cannot constitute a step toward an ideal.... Deviating from this makes you "not as ideal".
Please read : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness for more information.
Extracts:
- Age
Cross-cultural data shows that the reproductive success of women is tied to their youth and physical attractiveness.
As men age, they tend to seek a mate who is ever younger. 25% of eHarmony's male customers over the age of 50 request to only be matched with women younger than 40. A 2010 OkCupid study of 200,000 of its male and female users found that female desirability to men peaks at age 21, and falls below the average for all women at 31. After age 26 men have a larger potential dating pool than women; by 48 their pool is almost twice as large. The median 31 years-old male user searches for women aged 22 to 35, while the median 42 years-old male searches for women 27 to 45. The age skew is even greater with messages to other users; the median 30 years-old male messages teenage girls as often as women his own age, while mostly ignoring women a few years older than him. Excluding the most and least beautiful 10% of women, however, women's attractiveness does not change between 18 and 40.
- Facial features
Attractiveness research has attempted to determine which facial aspects communicate attractiveness. Facial symmetry has been shown to be considered attractive in women, and men have been found to prefer full lips, a high forehead, small chin, small nose, a shorter, narrow jaw, high cheekbones clear, smooth skin, and large, clear eyes. The shape of the face in terms of "how everything hangs together" is an important determinant of beauty. A University of Toronto study found correlations between facial measurements and attractiveness; researchers varied the distance between eyes, and between eyes and mouth, in different drawings of the same female face, and had the drawings evaluated; they found there were ideal proportions perceived as attractive (see photo). These proportions (46% and 36%) were close to the average of all female profiles. Women with thick, dark limbal rings in their eyes have also been found to be more attractive. The explanation given is that because the ring tends to fade with age and medical problems, a prominent limbal ring gives an honest indicator of youth.
Conclusion: Yes, there is a physical ideal. It's not my fault, it just is like that.0 -
FlimFlam - there's a difference between a scientific/statistical 'ideal' and a personal 'ideal'. You yourself said that you're looking for someone "ideal for (you)". The idea is that it might be worth actually figuring out what's ideal to you, rather than uncritically accepting an 'ideal' that is pushed and promoted by the marketing machines that surround us. Self-awareness is much more likely to land you with someone ideal for you than aspiring to 5'10, size 2 etc, just because that's what is currently idealised or fashionable as a definition of beauty.0
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Not enough effort, or was your talent not sufficient to get you to the ATP in the first place?
A little from Column A, and a little from Column B would be accurate. I didn't play tennis full time until I was 12. That's really late if your goal is to play pro. Youth tennis is an interesting subculture. It is a good idea to be swinging a tennis racquet a day or two after birth if you want to play pro.Being tall as a women isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me. I'm 5'11 and a size 4 and I don't have flocks of men lined up in my backyard...LOL
Do you turn your nose up at men who are 5’11” or 6’0”? Are they not appealing due to lack of height relative to your own? Even taller women like men who make them feel smaller.the median 30 years-old male messages teenage girls as often as women his own age, while mostly ignoring women a few years older than him. Excluding the most and least beautiful 10% of women, however, women's attractiveness does not change between 18 and 40.
In recent forays in online dating, my focus has been messaging women 1-7 years younger. The ideal for me is about 2-5 years younger.
Based on your quote, there’s no reason to feel sorry for the typical 30 year old woman getting ignored by 30 year old men. The 30 year old woman would likely reject the 30 year old man, instead focusing her efforts on 33-37 year old men. A good looking 30 year old woman without kids is still going to have plenty of options, especially online. Her inbox will still be full, and all she’ll have to do is pick the best one of many options. That would at least be the common perception amongst men.0 -
Being tall as a women isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me. I'm 5'11 and a size 4 and I don't have flocks of men lined up in my backyard...LOL
There are days where I'd love to be 5'2, petite and cute. I'll never be cute. When your nicknames are "Amazon" and "Xena", life isn't that awesome!
Xena is a great compliment. Lucy Lawless is a babe!
I couldn't agree more! Xena and Amazon women were powerful, strong and beautiful! It's an ultra compliment, I think!0 -
This whole "physical ideal" stuff cracks me up. I know men that think I'm the bees knees (funny, smart, attractive, etc) but won't date me because of my height. It intimidates them. So all those 5'10, size 2, C cup models out there probably have the same issues at some point in their lives. And really, women are "supposed" to be petite. Or at least that is the "Ideal" that I've always known. Women aren't supposed to be tall. Which is why many of us taller women complain about feeling "manly". And I'm talking about women over 5'10. I consider 5'7-5'9 the norm any more. Like 5'3-5'5 was the norm when my Mom was in her 20's and 30's.
I feel that sometimes the reason women insist on dating a taller man is because women are taught all their lives they should be "small". Every women on here will admit that we like tall men because they make us feel small and protected. We don't need protected, but society has told us that is the norm. Every shape and height out there is beautiful, you just have to embrace it.
Women 5'10 and over are physical outliers, not the "ideal"0 -
Not enough effort, or was your talent not sufficient to get you to the ATP in the first place?
A little from Column A, and a little from Column B would be accurate. I didn't play tennis full time until I was 12. That's really late if your goal is to play pro. Youth tennis is an interesting subculture. It is a good idea to be swinging a tennis racquet a day or two after birth if you want to play pro.
Sounds a bit like the violin and piano - only the extraordinarily talented with virtuosic potential can afford to start much later than 6 or 7, and even then may never catch up to those who started as soon as they could sit upright. I'm very glad my dominant musical talent is in an instrument that demands physical maturity, and mostly develops in adulthood, even if playing the waiting game gets tedious at times!0 -
This whole "physical ideal" stuff cracks me up. I know men that think I'm the bees knees (funny, smart, attractive, etc) but won't date me because of my height. It intimidates them.
I am 5'10" and this is the exact opposite reaction I get. Most guys that want to date me - both taller and shorter - really like that I'm tall and think it's sexy. Then again, I'm secure with my height. Perhaps you only see the reaction you anticipate as opposed to the one the men are truly giving off?0 -
My ideal partner is someone who is goofy and keeps me laughing, enjoys spending time outdoors, makes me a priority in their life, is affectionate, passionate, a great smile, Someone who has strong values and in family oriented. Someone who still wants kids. It was be nice if we were of the same faith Catholic, but not a deal breaker. (no addictions....been there done with that) Age really isn’t an issue for me I have gone out with 29 to 44 in the last few months. Being musically inclined gets major brownie points.
Any takers LOL :blushing: :blushing:
:flowerforyou: :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile: LOL
I think I am catch 5'2 curvy cutie with a big smile and loves to laugh.0 -
I think that there's beauty to be found regardless of how tall you are, or what your frame is. As long as you are a healthy individual that's what ultimately matters. I am average height, average bone structure and, when I don't bother with physical prep, average looks. But I've grown to love these things about me - I am a clean slate and in an almost artistic sense I can do what I want with my body. Since I've started lifting heavier weights I am shaping my body for strength and function. Since I started running my favorite body part has gone to my (admittedly, now slightly deflated) breasts, to my shapely and practical legs. I like that when I want to fade into the background I can be a wallflower at the grocery store, or when I want to stand out a little eyeliner has men buying me drinks at the karaoke bar.
Everyone has this ability, everyone can take the bits of themselves that they like and enhance it, or downplay the less flattering aspects (we all have them, I am not particularly fond of my nose but I know how to hide it in photographs and it certainly doesn't dominate my thoughts). Everyone can have up days and down days.
I understand that physical attraction can be important, I do. There's a reason when I go trolling for men I get trussed up - to get attention, to open the door that will ultimately win him over with my personality (which, call me an egotist, is one of my best attributes) so that we develop a relationship where it doesn't matter if we do chill at home in sweatpants sometimes.
There are certainly people on this board that rate physical appearance as the most important thing in a partner. That's fine. I have no interest in dictating what one person wants. I do have a problem when that expectation is then projected on the rest of the people posting in the board. I think beauty is something that can be controlled and manipulated by those who care enough - but just because a woman cuts her own hair instead of getting a team of stylists to give an opinion, or if a man opts out of getting a fake and bake doesn't mean they don't care about their looks and it certainly doesn't make them undateable. It's okay to have more in life than checking your hair in every and any reflective surface to maintain optimum attractiveness.
So while I agree that attractiveness is important, I want it to be more and deeper than how I look. I want to wake up next to a man that doesn't make me brush my teeth before a good morning kiss. I want to be in a relationship that relishes getting caught in thunder storms and splashing through muddy puddles. I want to be with the person that thinks I'm cute when I get giddy about researching a new animal study. I want him to get excited when I'm wearing mascara and a garter belt. I want him to get excited when I've pulled my hair back in a ponytail, I've just scrubbed my face and I'm wearing an oversized pajama tshirt. I want the complete package and I can't have that if it's someone who can't get a hard on because my tan lines are uneven from running outside.
So while it's all well and good for others to focus on the physical in their personal pursuits, please please please stop talking like a woman is only worth as much as her reflection. There are plenty of quality matches that don't measure a woman by her cup size and weight.0 -
Based on your quote, there’s no reason to feel sorry for the typical 30 year old woman getting ignored by 30 year old men. The 30 year old woman would likely reject the 30 year old man, instead focusing her efforts on 33-37 year old men. A good looking 30 year old woman without kids is still going to have plenty of options, especially online. Her inbox will still be full, and all she’ll have to do is pick the best one of many options. That would at least be the common perception amongst men.
Age is the biggest advantage a woman has when it comes to selecting her life partner. I cannot even begin to describe how much of an advantage a 22 year old has over a 35 year old woman in the dating game. It's just another one of those pesky biological preferences that us men have.
However, this is why I have zero sympathy for older women who say men are ageist and only want to date younger women. In my experience, women who have this attitude either squandered their youth by dating jerks with no future or just didn't focus on dating at time of their life. Either way, they essentially wasting some of the best years of their lives. Before everyone jumps on me, I'm sure there are exceptions to this.
But, I look at my female friends and most of them had many opportunities to date when they were younger. Most could have been out with a different guy every night of the week. Knowing this, a lot of them became incredibly jaded and picky and wouldn't give most decent guys the time of day. As the years go on, the men get fewer and fewer. Until one day, they go months and months without getting much male attention.
Then I have the (dis)pleasure of listening to them complain about how all men only go for younger women. Unreal.0 -
This whole "physical ideal" stuff cracks me up. I know men that think I'm the bees knees (funny, smart, attractive, etc) but won't date me because of my height. It intimidates them.
I am 5'10" and this is the exact opposite reaction I get. Most guys that want to date me - both taller and shorter - really like that I'm tall and think it's sexy. Then again, I'm secure with my height. Perhaps you only see the reaction you anticipate as opposed to the one the men are truly giving off?
I'm secure with my height. It doesn't bother me (it did when I was growing up, but after the age of 22 I realized it was part of what made me, me). But what bothers me is people assuming that tall women are more "desired". They aren't.
My current beau thinks my height and what comes with my height is WONDERFUL. He wants me to wear 4" heals and be taller than him when we go out, stand out in crowd so he can "show me off". I guess it's all about finding the right guy that is secure with himself!0 -
This whole "physical ideal" stuff cracks me up. I know men that think I'm the bees knees (funny, smart, attractive, etc) but won't date me because of my height. It intimidates them.
I am 5'10" and this is the exact opposite reaction I get. Most guys that want to date me - both taller and shorter - really like that I'm tall and think it's sexy. Then again, I'm secure with my height. Perhaps you only see the reaction you anticipate as opposed to the one the men are truly giving off?
I'm 5'9 and I have never had my height bother a guy before. Tall or short they all seem to like it. I think alot of it has to due with how you carry yourself. I see lots of tall women who slouch or wear baggin clothes in an attempt to make themselves shorter. It just makes them look selfconsous.0 -
The 30 year old woman would likely reject the 30 year old man, instead focusing her efforts on 33-37 year old men.
Many (not all) men go for younger women, but I find very few women who get hung up on a partner's age unless it is significantly different from their own. So, why do men assume women want the same things they want (i.e. the guy wants younger, so the woman MUST want older...)? Huh?0
