5/3/1 Support Thread

JNick77
JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
Ladies and Gentlemen, the purpose of this thread is to create one spot where people that have bought Jim's book and want to discuss 5/3/1 in more detail, whether it's to ask questions or share experiences and learnings. Let's keep this thread positive and on-topic.

I practiced 5/3/1 for quite a while before switching to a different training system. Although I'm not currently practicing it, I am extremely familiar with the program and am willing to help answer questions. I will be reading 5/3/1 Beyond very soon and hope to become more knowledgeable in some of Jim's newer teachings.
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Replies

  • Frank_Just_Frank
    Frank_Just_Frank Posts: 454 Member
    Good idea. I'm looking forward to reading his new book as well, curious if there're any new ideas he hadn't blogged about.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    bump
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Okay, so I broke down today and bought the book. Holy crap is there some cool stuff in there. I'm will need to read this book about 5 times I think before I get a good handle on everything.

    It's ironic that we started talking about this and I got the book today because my bench is still in the toilet. I was going back through some of my training logs that I keep in Excel and my bench was at it's best when I was on 5/3/1. I actually rep'd 225lbs for 10 reps at one point and today I can rep it twice, ****ing pathetic. I really hate to change-up programs but man my bench is not going anywhere I don't think my bench strength is advanced enough for what I've been doing, though the Cube has been amazing for my DL and Squat.

    I've only had a cursory read, so I need to read it literally 3 to 4 more time for sure but something about the 5/3/1 SVR speaks to me.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Good idea. I'm looking forward to reading his new book as well, curious if there're any new ideas he hadn't blogged about.

    There are some things in here that he wrote on T-Nation or blogs about that the average person may have missed (aka. 5/3/1 Pyramid sets). The Pyramid sets is actually an older take on 5/3/1 that he talked about probably 2 to 3 years ago. Of course the newer concepts are just awesome. I
  • ChrisLindsay9
    ChrisLindsay9 Posts: 837 Member
    Someone at my gym told me that Wendler has incorporated some aspects of Cube into a 5/3/1. Is that accurate?
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Again, I'm still pretty new, only lifting for 9 months, but am I missing something when I figure I could use 5/3/1 for my strength training forever? I mean, it's graduated, slow progress, solid system from a reputable source... why do guys change from systems like this after a few years?
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Someone at my gym told me that Wendler has incorporated some aspects of Cube into a 5/3/1. Is that accurate?

    Not what I can tell. The Cube it pretty different from 5/3/1, even with the updates I think. Now in the book Jim does discuss going for heavy singles and stuff which, Brandon does also support in his book. I guess Jim does cover adding Dynamic Effort work into your workouts but that programming is different from Brandon's in that you don't do DE work every week for each lift, only once every three weeks basically.
    Again, I'm still pretty new, only lifting for 9 months, but am I missing something when I figure I could use 5/3/1 for my strength training forever? I mean, it's graduated, slow progress, solid system from a reputable source... why do guys change from systems like this after a few years?

    With Jim's updates to 5/3/1 I would say that you could potentially use it forever. He covers many different ways to effectively change your training while keeping the core of 5/3/1 in-tact. He also addresses advanced lifters that are benching 2x + their bodyweight and stuff like that. When I was doing 5/3/1 I hit a definite wall to where I could progress any further and that combined with me always wanting to learn more I tried Westside and eventually the Cube. I think with the new additions, particularly working up to a heavy single and AMRAP of your TM; I think that would address some of the issues I had. Basically, I'd hit the wall, reset, and then work my way back up. But those first cycle or two after the reset is pretty light still, and I felt like my body needed to feel the heavy weight on it. I think this will help a lot which is why I like the SVR and Last Set concepts.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Does anybody really get the thought behind "Joke" sets? I get the math and the "why", but I don't understand how. For instance, in week 3 you actually start doing sets at 105%, 115%, and 120% of your training max. Putting that into perspective...

    My deadlift 1RM = 405 * .90 = 365

    365 * 105% = 380
    * 115% = 420
    * 120% = 437

    Umm... yeah I fail to see how I can do that? Has anybody tried yet? Obviously the point is to get there but to plan that in seems a little aggressive. I kind of like the concept with the SVR to just plan in heavy singles.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    I put together a new plan using the Strength Phase and Last Set First w/ Paused Reps (non-deadlift days). Here's what I did today:

    a. Deadlift: 3, 3, 3, single, AMRAP @ TM (managed 3 reps)
    b. Snatch Grip Deadlift: 5 x 10
    c. Sumo Good Mornings: 5 x 10
    d. DB Shrugs 5 x 10
    e. Back extensions 1 x 50
    - Abs

    That last set using TM was awesome and yet brutal; I was exhausted after this workout.
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
    Does anybody really get the thought behind "Joke" sets? I get the math and the "why", but I don't understand how. For instance, in week 3 you actually start doing sets at 105%, 115%, and 120% of your training max. Putting that into perspective...

    My deadlift 1RM = 405 * .90 = 365

    365 * 105% = 380
    * 115% = 420
    * 120% = 437

    Umm... yeah I fail to see how I can do that? Has anybody tried yet? Obviously the point is to get there but to plan that in seems a little aggressive. I kind of like the concept with the SVR to just plan in heavy singles.

    don't see how that is possible for any non beginner in 3 weeks?
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Does anybody really get the thought behind "Joke" sets? I get the math and the "why", but I don't understand how. For instance, in week 3 you actually start doing sets at 105%, 115%, and 120% of your training max. Putting that into perspective...

    My deadlift 1RM = 405 * .90 = 365

    365 * 105% = 380
    * 115% = 420
    * 120% = 437

    Umm... yeah I fail to see how I can do that? Has anybody tried yet? Obviously the point is to get there but to plan that in seems a little aggressive. I kind of like the concept with the SVR to just plan in heavy singles.

    don't see how that is possible for any non beginner in 3 weeks?

    Yeah, I don't get it either. Although he does say that a lot of it is how you're feeling and based on how your training is going. The Joke Sets are definitely not something that I can see anybody doing too often. I think the AMRAP @ TM sets in the Strength Phase are probably the most realistic and still no joke.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    The Joker Sets are meant to be like an audible, an ace in your pocket. He calls it "auto-regulation", or programed ways to add to your workout while you're actually in the midst of "playing the game". Although you could attempt them every time, they are meant for you to capitalize on the extra strength/energy you have when you're having a good day at the gym. Giving you more work when you feel like you're up to it. By "definition" then, you will not usually be doing them anyways, although I guess you could if you do away with PR sets.

    Now, he actually contradicts himself in the book. At the beginning when he first mentions Jokers, he suggests making the PR and Jokers sets an "either/or" thing. If you feel like the Jokers would help, do the PR set for required reps then go for broke with Jokers.

    Later on he is less clear, saying always go for broke with PR sets and then do your Jokers... then he also mentions maybe capping your PR set on Joker days... whatever, the main point I think he is getting at is to decide whether or not you feel like doing Jokers would be benefitial that day, and then adjusting elsewhere if need be. If it means you decide not to go for a PR, and instead go for heavier sets, that's cool and it will help you keep things fresh and feeling good. Of course if you can do it all, more power to you.

    About the weight, I had these same problems with Joker sets when I first read them (have not attempted them yet), but when I do I will give myself some slack and do 5% increments to keep it managable and keep the progression steady. So on Wk 3, I would do 100%, 105%, & 110%. That said remember this... those would be singles because the rep scheme for Wk 3 ends in singles (if it were Wk 1 it would be 5s, Wk 2 = 3s), and you can give yourself 5-10 min rest between PR set and Jokers. Also remember the Joker sets are basically till failure (just shy of it), so you might only finish half of the second joker set before calling it a day, and that's ok.

    Does that help?
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    I totally understand the concept behind Joker Sets, I'm just trying to understand "how" the "f" you actually pull it off. Basically, to me it looks like you're basically trying for a new 1RM and just really trying to push the max. Like I've said with other things, you don't know until you try it. LOL. One day I will have to give it a go when I'm feeling good.

    I'm definitely on the track for using the Strength Phase and I've setup my next 6-weeks accordingly. I very much like that AMRAP @ Training Max set after your main work sets and then following-up with some backoff sets (paused first set last). Even with the light weight on the OHP, by the 3rd set it actually started to become a little fatiguing to my shoulders and after my workout I could barely get my arms up to wash my hair. I did other accessory work of course but it was an interesting morning to say the least. LOL. I'm really liking the AMRAP @ TM set right now and the paused sets after should be beneficial.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Crap sorry, re-read your posts. Yeah I share your concern about the 1RM, especially since before it was all about that 90% TM and slowly moving the needle. I guess over time he just got a bit more aggressive with his routine, or maybe he realized that periodically he would have a good day where his 1RM was higher than his true baseline.

    He did say 5-10% though, so I would just move it up by 5% increments instead of 10%. Seems much more doable, and congruent with the rest of the program. Max lift is just shy of 1RM, but with rounding you end up repping your 1RM. And ****, if after that you can keep moving the needle, why not.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Crap sorry, re-read your posts. Yeah I share your concern about the 1RM, especially since before it was all about that 90% TM and slowly moving the needle. I guess over time he just got a bit more aggressive with his routine, or maybe he realized that periodically he would have a good day where his 1RM was higher than his true baseline.

    He did say 5-10% though, so I would just move it up by 5% increments instead of 10%. Seems much more doable, and congruent with the rest of the program. Max lift is just shy of 1RM, but with rounding you end up repping your 1RM. And ****, if after that you can keep moving the needle, why not.

    Yeah, I mean if you feel good and you can do 115% of your TM then friggin' go for it. When I read it in the book it almost felt like it's something that should be part of your regular training. Repping your TM is one thing, but blowing past it at 115% to 120% is a different story. It's probably a rare thing but I'm sure Jim recognizes it which is why he indicates auto-regulation.
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
    aaah these joker sets are up to 115% or so of the TM not actual 1rm? That makes more sense and sounds doable. Especially in the earlier phases of 5/3/1.
  • taso42
    taso42 Posts: 8,980 Member
    tagging.

    p.s., i just purchased beyond 5/3/1, partly because of this thread
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    aaah these joker sets are up to 115% or so of the TM not actual 1rm? That makes more sense and sounds doable. Especially in the earlier phases of 5/3/1.

    Yes, you apply the percentages against your TM, not actual. It's still not something I think people can do regularly. It's most-likely during one of those fantastic sessions where the weight is just moving with tremendous force and everything feels easy.
    p.s., i just purchased beyond 5/3/1, partly because of this thread

    Nice taso! It's well worth the read. I truly feel like Jim filled any holes that were in 5/3/1 with these updates.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Today was my Squat session of 3/3/3 --> TM for reps --> 5sets of 3 paused reps. I hit my TM for a good 3 reps but wasn't feelin' a 4th. I actually intended on doing 5x5 for the paused reps at the end but sitting in the hole for 2 to 3 seconds is brutal and 3 good reps was all I could manage on each set.

    This week I've learned that paused reps can be brutal and that I really need to re-focus my accessory work because this strength phase sucks the life out of you. LOL.
  • ilovedeadlifts
    ilovedeadlifts Posts: 2,923 Member
    paused reps are super brutal. i usually do 1-2 sets on my squat days.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    paused reps are super brutal. i usually do 1-2 sets on my squat days.

    How long do you pause for?
  • ChrisLindsay9
    ChrisLindsay9 Posts: 837 Member
    How does one incorporate speed work into a 5/3/1 program, if it all? It seems like the week to work on speed would be the 5/5/5+ week?
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    I don't know much about speed work, but I imagine it's just lifting while trying to move the weight as quickly as possible during the concentric phase.

    At any rate, why not just do it after your main lifts as accessory work? I mean that's what's great about this program, he does not pick bones about what you do after your main lifts.
  • ChrisLindsay9
    ChrisLindsay9 Posts: 837 Member
    At any rate, why not just do it after your main lifts as accessory work? I mean that's what's great about this program, he does not pick bones about what you do after your main lifts.
    Good suggestion. Thanks!
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    If you get the Beyond 5/3/1 ebook Wendler address Dynamic Effort (speed) work into the mix. If you're talking plyometrics and stuff that can always be done on an off day.
  • ilovedeadlifts
    ilovedeadlifts Posts: 2,923 Member

    How long do you pause for?

    usually 2 seconds or so. depends on the weight, i catch myself coming up quicker with heavy stuff.

    I've taken lighter sets in the 225 area and just sat in the hole as long as I could stand
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    I'm starting my 2nd cycle already of 5/3/1 and I'm feeling better. I've gained about 4lbs so far and I kinda think it might be muscle but I'm not convinced yet. My definition hasn't changed, so it's not fat at least and maybe even improved in certain spots which is why I feel that it could be. It's possible that it's glycogen stores because I've increased my carb intake a little but with the volume I've been doing plus HIIT cardio I'd be surprised if it was. I also feel stronger in all my lifts already. Anywho...

    I pulled off a Joke Set today and didn't even realize it. My Training Max is 365 and I did a rep PR set with 385lbs for 4 reps. I had 385 stuck in my head for some reason and I just went with it.

    With the set / rep scheme with the 5/3/1 Strength Phase approach, I really struggle with doing deadlifts or squats for 5 sets of 10 after the initial main work. I've actually been straining my oblique and my left Lat of all things. If I feel good after the main work I'll do maybe 2 to 3 sets of 10 with the main lift. If not, I just proceed to Accessory work.

    How's 5/3/1 coming along for everybody else? Anybody touch-upon any of his new stuff in Beyond 5/3/1?
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    I still haven't tried the Joker Sets, although I've just started a cutting cycle. I just don't see myself killing it for as long as I am at a deficit, being hungry and lifting is touch business (even with pre-workout and spacing meals, you're just hungrier when you're not bulking or maintaining).

    How did you structure your Joker Sets though? After 5/3/1, you jumped to 385 and did 4 for a PR set, or just hit a PR by doing your jokers?
  • taso42
    taso42 Posts: 8,980 Member
    With the set / rep scheme with the 5/3/1 Strength Phase approach, I really struggle with doing deadlifts or squats for 5 sets of 10 after the initial main work. I've actually been straining my oblique and my left Lat of all things. If I feel good after the main work I'll do maybe 2 to 3 sets of 10 with the main lift. If not, I just proceed to Accessory work.

    I feel ya...

    My latest thinking on this is I'm doing something along the lines of "The Rule of 50"... but I count the joker sets and down sets toward the 50. Then I just make up the slack at the end. Or, in the case of yesterday I just did 1 set of 10 at the end and called it a day.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    I still haven't tried the Joker Sets, although I've just started a cutting cycle. I just don't see myself killing it for as long as I am at a deficit, being hungry and lifting is touch business (even with pre-workout and spacing meals, you're just hungrier when you're not bulking or maintaining).

    How did you structure your Joker Sets though? After 5/3/1, you jumped to 385 and did 4 for a PR set, or just hit a PR by doing your jokers?

    Yeah, cutting is hard with the volume. This was my workout today (after warm-ups of course)...

    1 x 3
    1 x 3
    1 x 3
    1 x 1 @ TM
    1 x AMRAP @ 385 for 4 reps (105% of TM)
    set 2 - 1 x 3+
    set 1 - 1 x 3+

    Good Mornings 5 x 10
    DB Shrugs 5 x 10
    Leg Curls 1 x 50
    Sprinter Situps 1 x 50
    Hanging Leg Raises 1 x 50

    I realize with the Strength Phase plan it was suppose to be my TM @ AMRAP not a Joker Set @ AMRAP but I'm sure Wendler wouldn't call me a dumb *kitten* for this one, cuz I busted my *kitten* on those 4 reps. LOL
    y latest thinking on this is I'm doing something along the lines of "The Rule of 50"... but I count the joker sets and down sets toward the 50. Then I just make up the slack at the end. Or, in the case of yesterday I just did 1 set of 10 at the end and called it a day.

    That's interesting, I haven't tried that approach yet. It's not just that I feel beat afterwards, but my stabilizer muscles are pretty beat too and they're getting f'd up by pushing the reps with another 5x10 of the main movement. Perhaps after another cycle my body will be more use to this style of training and I can increase the volume by doing the main exercise for 5 x 10, but for now it's going to be either nothing or a couple sets of 10 for the main movement and then my main accessory stuff. I'd rather lift smart so I can lift another day than to push myself and be out of commission for a couple weeks.