Dinner date- who pays?
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I just have a problem with the idea that a guy is going to try to avoid spending any money because of the possibility that it might not work out. More often than not, I would imagine, that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the risk you take when you date someone you don't know very well (or at all). Besides, it's one dinner (or coffee or drinks or whatever). I could understand if we were talking about 20-year-old, starving college students. But a grown man with a job who is looking for a quality woman to date should become intimately familiar with the concept of generosity. And that doesn't always mean spending a lot of money (or any). But the courtesy of buying dinner for someone YOU invited to dinner is critical to that concept.
I do understand that differences of opinion have a lot to do with where we're from and what we've been taught. When I was 13, my dad took me to lunch one day, just the two of us. He did all of the things that a gentleman does for a lady, and he said to me "Don't ever date or marry a man who wouldn't treat you the way I would treat you." And that has been seared into my brain ever since. It's difficult, though, in a world full of women whose fathers did not raise them in a similar fashion. Now men are accustomed to dating women who don't think they are special, who expect to be treated like garbage, and who have no idea how to respond with grace and respect and gratitude when a man does treat them well.0 -
I just have a problem with the idea that a guy is going to try to avoid spending any money because of the possibility that it might not work out.
I agree too!0 -
As a guy I am also kind of surprised at how much ladies expect in proportion to how much they consider they need to participate.
The "well you get to go out with me" thing kind of comes off as being a bit full of themselves.
Really do think we all would do well to take an honest reflection of where we are at,what we want and what we consider basic courtesies that should be extended both ways.
Remember,unless you are old friends a guy probably knows very little about your likes or dislikes at the first date (kind of the point of dating) yet I see many ladies here writing as if he should know that and plan the date as they consider his responsibility accordingly.
Another question...a guy you have met a bit asks you out and also asks what you would like to do on the date.
Do you offer suggestions at all?
Get miffed because he didn`t pick up on a signal?
Assume he doesn`t care that much because if he did he would plan something great on his own?0 -
Another question...a guy you have met a bit asks you out and also asks what you would like to do on the date.
Do you offer suggestions at all?
Get miffed because he didn`t pick up on a signal?
Assume he doesn`t care that much because if he did he would plan something great on his own?
I wouldn't think any of those things, and I wouldn't have any problem coming up with a date plan together.0 -
Another question...a guy you have met a bit asks you out and also asks what you would like to do on the date.
Do you offer suggestions at all?
Get miffed because he didn`t pick up on a signal?
Assume he doesn`t care that much because if he did he would plan something great on his own?
I agree with you Carl, the expectation levels here and way beyond what I consider relative to the age of internet dating. I think its kinda different if you're meeting someone you know, someone who traditionally would pick you up from your home and 'take you out'. In this era sometimes guys and girls are planning 2 or 3 meets per week, and most of the time they are not even getting past the first drink before its decided that they're 'not for me'.
Anyway, in answer. I always chip in with a suggestion. Usually its just a pub. I dont feel a first date needs any more planning than that. With a stranger, you're only trying to establish if you have any chemistry/sparks/common ground between you. I always feel bad if a guy has to travel far to meet me, so I would usually suggest meeting up half way if there's a bit of distance involved.
I think someone said that this kind of meet up is more of a 'meet' than a 'date' so I guess there are two approaches that I would take.
Second date, once you know you like each other, then I would more consider the outing to be planned. But again, I wouldnt be miffed if I planned it. Dont get me wrong, its nice to be with an assertive guy, but most guys ask me what I'd like to do and make a couple of suggestions. That's perfect! However, he may not know my area or I may not know his. He has no idea what I like doing, or we might have already established we both like gigs or something........ Hmmm!! Actually too many anomolies to even give a straight answer....:laugh:
But in general, I dont expect the guy to be the leader in all things dating :flowerforyou:0 -
My thoughts are the same as many have already posted...if a man asks me out, then he pays. If we go out for a few drinks, I offer to pay for some of the rounds.If we've been out a few times and things seem to be going well then I either invite him over for a home-cooked meal or offer to take him out. So...he asks/he pays, and if I ask/I pay. I think a guy appreciates it when a lady takes the bull by the horns, so to speak, and plans an evening out for the two. I would never plan an evening out and expect the guy to pay.0
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As a guy I am also kind of surprised at how much ladies expect in proportion to how much they consider they need to participate.
The "well you get to go out with me" thing kind of comes off as being a bit full of themselves.
Really do think we all would do well to take an honest reflection of where we are at,what we want and what we consider basic courtesies that should be extended both ways.
Remember,unless you are old friends a guy probably knows very little about your likes or dislikes at the first date (kind of the point of dating) yet I see many ladies here writing as if he should know that and plan the date as they consider his responsibility accordingly.
Another question...a guy you have met a bit asks you out and also asks what you would like to do on the date.
Do you offer suggestions at all?
Get miffed because he didn`t pick up on a signal?
Assume he doesn`t care that much because if he did he would plan something great on his own?
A lot of women are "full of themselves," to the point that they think all they have to do is show up and that the man should be flattered that she is willing to spend a few hours of her precious time on him. The way I look at it, personally, is not really "I'm so wonderful, and you're lucky I said yes." It's more like, if you ask me out, then I assume that spending time with me is something you want to do, and if that's the case, what else do I need to do to make it worth your while, beyond giving you my full attention, keeping up my end of the conversation, and making a genuine effort to get to know you?
I am naturally a giving person, and I go out of my way to show a man that I appreciate his time and his efforts and the fact that he chose to be with me when he could've been with someone else. But I guess I view asking someone on a date as being basically the same thing as inviting someone to a party at your home. You are the host; it is your responsibility to attend to their needs and to make sure they have a good time. Their job is to show up, to be pleasant company, and to express their gratitude afterward.
So yes, if a guy asked me out and then expected me to decide what we should do, I would be a little irritated. The kind of man I would want to be in a relationship with would have put in the effort to come up with something on his own. He would've felt like that was his responsibility, not mine. I understand some women are incredibly selfish and difficult and would make you feel lousy if you dared to pick a restaurant or an activity that she didn't like. But that's not me. And I don't feel like I should have to settle for whatever ridiculously low standard was set by crappy women you've dated in the past.0 -
I wonder if guys would stop fawning over that type of woman would more ladies stop acting that way.The "well you get to go out with me" thing kind of comes off as being a bit full of themselves.
And, actually, I’ve gone out with guys where it seriously didn’t matter WHAT we did… I just got intrinsic pleasure out of being around them. I guess those are the ones I keep as platonic friends when the romance doesn’t work out. The kind of man I want long term is one who I just plain enjoy *him* and *his presence* (and he, mine).Another question...a guy you have met a bit asks you out and also asks what you would like to do on the date.
Do you offer suggestions at all?
Get miffed because he didn`t pick up on a signal?
Assume he doesn`t care that much because if he did he would plan something great on his own?
I absolutely give an input if asked. And, since I don’t like traditionally date places (bars, clubs, movie theaters) I try to give hints or offer suggestions even if he’s not asking for inputs. This is tough for me, because I’ve been taught to let the man lead, but OTOH, I really, really hate is asking a date to leave somewhere because I don’t enjoy the atmosphere (but I will if it’s too smoky). Won't put a guy in that position if I don’t have to.0 -
But... they aren't special! And certainly not more special than men.Now men are accustomed to dating women who don't think they are special
You're not special, I'm not special, no man is special, no woman is special, nobody is special - initially.
Initially, we're just trying to assess whether we want to become special to each other or not. Initially, I've just noticed the person, so she might become special, but she sincerely is not.
It's like at a job interview, everyone should believe they bring something to the table: you, your skills; the employer, his money and structure.
Nobody is special, unless you consider yourself worthless (in what case, everyone who deign accept a date/job interview with you is special!).
Do you really want an honest answer to this question lazy bum? Because as far as I can tell, your "inviter" must do the exact same things as you (yep, all the things above that come before the '?' the inviter does them, just replace "if you ask me out" by "if you accept my invitation").It's more like, if you ask me out, then I assume that spending time with me is something you want to do, and if that's the case, what else do I need to do to make it worth your while, beyond giving you my full attention, keeping up my end of the conversation, and making a genuine effort to get to know you?
The thing I *cannot* stand is that the only reason why men invite women is because "society said so".
So with a few intellectual shortcuts, you are saying that because "society said so", non special men have to cater for the needs of non special women.
Sorry, the pill is a bit difficult to swallow for me.
Different issue! I will plan the date if I invite, the girl plans if she invites. Inviting for me = I've got an idea of something we can do.So yes, if a guy asked me out and then expected me to decide what we should do0 -
I really think the whole thing gets back to a lack of communication and partly some of the inherent differences in how we view things as men and women.
What I see is ladies going from being asked out on a date from what has been until then a casual acquaintance to believing in their minds that the guy already has strong romantic feelings and thus should act as would be appropriate as if in an established relationship.
That very well may be the case but in the event that it isn`t be careful of pushing him away because of what you have predetermined his feelings are.
He is interested but probably not ready yet to put himself in a position for the sting of personal rejection (I get a sense that many ladies don`t like losing that power but that is a different subject for another time maybe) so is likely to be put off by obvious signs he didn`t measure up to unrealistic,preconceived expectations.0 -
Do any of you think that the area of the country (or being in a different country) or the age range of your dates plays a part in this too?
For example, I'm in my 30s and live in New England. I would never in a million years 'expect' a guy to pay for me on a first date. I always have enough money in my wallet to cover at least my share. Although, I have said before that if I offer to pay my part and he says no, then a simple thank you is enough, I don't want to insult him either.0 -
But... they aren't special! And certainly not more special than men.Now men are accustomed to dating women who don't think they are special
You're not special, I'm not special, no man is special, no woman is special, nobody is special - initially.
Initially, we're just trying to assess whether we want to become special to each other or not. Initially, I've just noticed the person, so she might become special, but she sincerely is not.
It's like at a job interview, everyone should believe they bring something to the table: you, your skills; the employer, his money and structure.
Nobody is special, unless you consider yourself worthless (in what case, everyone who deign accept a date/job interview with you is special!).
Do you really want an honest answer to this question lazy bum? Because as far as I can tell, your "inviter" must do the exact same things as you (yep, all the things above that come before the '?' the inviter does them, just replace "if you ask me out" by "if you accept my invitation").It's more like, if you ask me out, then I assume that spending time with me is something you want to do, and if that's the case, what else do I need to do to make it worth your while, beyond giving you my full attention, keeping up my end of the conversation, and making a genuine effort to get to know you?
The thing I *cannot* stand is that the only reason why men invite women is because "society said so".
So with a few intellectual shortcuts, you are saying that because "society said so", non special men have to cater for the needs of non special women.
Sorry, the pill is a bit difficult to swallow for me.
Different issue! I will plan the date if I invite, the girl plans if she invites. Inviting for me = I've got an idea of something we can do.So yes, if a guy asked me out and then expected me to decide what we should do
I never said men weren't special or that they don't deserve to be treated as such. Why is this a mututally exclusive concept? I absolutely do believe I am special, and I expect any man I'm on a date with to believe HE is special. I don't really care what anyone else thinks. It's not about the people at the next table or the people at work or on some Internet forum. It's about him and me.
I also do not believe it is society that dictates men ask women out. Biology says men are the pursuers and the aggressors. That manifests itself through our social customs. It's not like some great, all-knowing person decided one day that men should ask women out instead of the other way around and everyone just went "Sure, let's go with that."0 -
My kind of woman:
Intelligent, successful, well paying job. I don't want to have to take care of her; I want her to be able to take care of herself. If a woman wants a provider then that isn't going to be me. If you need a provider it probably means that you don't have the financial means to achieve the lifestyle that you're wanting in life and I'm not going to sacrifice everything I've worked for to give it to you. I don't care about being the breadwinner. I want us to be equals. I'm not going to expect her to do my laundry, do my dishes or anything else. I've been doing that for 32 years and don't need any help. Besides, since we're both successful we can just pay someone to do all of those things. If you want a nice pair of shoes then you should have a career to support that. I'd rather be with someone who has the ability to travel to nice places on a whim, not someone who expects me to cover all their expenses because society tells us it's the right thing to do or you were brought up that way. Be your own woman, I'll be my own man. Together we can take those successes and enjoy all the things that life has to offer.
I want to do things for a woman because I want to, not because it is expected. The same holds true on her end. Expectation over time breeds resentment. Ask yourself this ladies, what if the roles were reversed? What if a guy expected you to pay for everything? Would you like it? Paying to have their company and their presence and to make them feel special? Or would you rather to do it because you wanted to; because you care about that person and because you know they're going to appreciate rather than see the bill come and they look at it and slide it to you without a care in the world. I'm not on a pedestal, nor should you be.
The ironic thing these days, and yes I'll say it, is that some women feel entitled to be taken care of. Why don't people realize that the provider scenario is bred out of the woman being the caretaker of the house hold. Women didn't work. They stayed at home being the mother. Cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. It's what equaled the two. Now most women don't want that and I can appreciate that. But then these women still want the provider but they don't want to do anything else. Hell, most women these days can't even cook a pop tart. If I have children, we'll be equals. I work from home; I'll spend time with them and share the effort involved in raising them. I don't expect these things out of her because we're equals.0 -
I really think the whole thing gets back to a lack of communication and partly some of the inherent differences in how we view things as men and women.
What I see is ladies going from being asked out on a date from what has been until then a casual acquaintance to believing in their minds that the guy already has strong romantic feelings and thus should act as would be appropriate as if in an established relationship.
That very well may be the case but in the event that it isn`t be careful of pushing him away because of what you have predetermined his feelings are.
He is interested but probably not ready yet to put himself in a position for the sting of personal rejection (I get a sense that many ladies don`t like losing that power but that is a different subject for another time maybe) so is likely to be put off by obvious signs he didn`t measure up to unrealistic,preconceived expectations.
I don't expect any man to treat me like I'm his girlfriend just because he asked me out. But since when is being a gentleman reserved only for your girlfriend? If you don't treat me like I'm important to you before we get to the relationship stage, we'll never get there.
I just believe, as I've tried to make clear, that when you choose to ask someone on a date, you have certain responsibilities that the person you asked out does not have. If she asks you out, then the same goes for her.
Now, if you're not ready or willing to put forth the effort for a full-blown dinner date because you don't know the woman that well, then ask her out for coffee. You can be in and out in 15 or 20 minutes if it doesn't go well, and then you never have to see her again. But if you decide to call her again and ask her to dinner, I would hope you'd WANT to treat her like she's not still just some random girl you met at the supermarket, even if she's not officially your girlfriend yet.0 -
My kind of woman:
Intelligent, successful, well paying job. I don't want to have to take care of her; I want her to be able to take care of herself. If a woman wants a provider then that isn't going to be me. If you need a provider it probably means that you don't have the financial means to achieve the lifestyle that you're wanting in life and I'm not going to sacrifice everything I've worked for to give it to you. I don't care about being the breadwinner. I want us to be equals. I'm not going to expect her to do my laundry, do my dishes or anything else. I've been doing that for 32 years and don't need any help. Besides, since we're both successful we can just pay someone to do all of those things. If you want a nice pair of shoes then you should have a career to support that. I'd rather be with someone who has the ability to travel to nice places on a whim, not someone who expects me to cover all their expenses because society tells us it's the right thing to do or you were brought up that way. Be your own woman, I'll be my own man. Together we can take those successes and enjoy all the things that life has to offer.
I want to do things for a woman because I want to, not because it is expected. The same holds true on her end. Expectation over time breeds resentment. Ask yourself this ladies, what if the roles were reversed? What if a guy expected you to pay for everything? Would you like it? Paying to have their company and their presence and to make them feel special? Or would you rather to do it because you wanted to; because you care about that person and because you know they're going to appreciate rather than see the bill come and they look at it and slide it to you without a care in the world. I'm not on a pedestal, nor should you be.
The ironic thing these days, and yes I'll say it, is that some women feel entitled to be taken care of. Why don't people realize that the provider scenario is bred out of the woman being the caretaker of the house hold. Women didn't work. They stayed at home being the mother. Cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. It's what equaled the two. Now most women don't want that and I can appreciate that. But then these women still want the provider but they don't want to do anything else. Hell, most women these days can't even cook a pop tart. If I have children, we'll be equals. I work from home; I'll spend time with them and share the effort involved in raising them. I don't expect these things out of her because we're equals.
My kind of man :flowerforyou:
In fact, most relationships I've been in, I earn far more than him, so I guess being an equal would be a treat!! :laugh:0 -
Do any of you think that the area of the country (or being in a different country) or the age range of your dates plays a part in this too?
For example, I'm in my 30s and live in New England. I would never in a million years 'expect' a guy to pay for me on a first date. I always have enough money in my wallet to cover at least my share. Although, I have said before that if I offer to pay my part and he says no, then a simple thank you is enough, I don't want to insult him either.
I think you have a point there! I dont know any woman in my social circle that would expect a guy to pay, be original with the planning AND smell nice all that same time!! :laugh:
j/k
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I absolutely do believe I am special, and I expect any man I'm on a date with to believe HE is special.
Exactly! One unique person with special qualities seeking another unique person with special qualities...who knows he brings as much to the table as I do, not in a cocky way, but in a self-assured, confident way.Biology says men are the pursuers and the aggressors. That manifests itself through our social customs. It's not like some great, all-knowing person decided one day that men should ask women out instead of the other way around and everyone just went "Sure, let's go with that."
And...
<nervous looking around and wondering... if I be blunt again, will anyone still come to hear me teach Sunday School??... lol...>
... most women feel more romantic, more in the mood when they are pursued. It's no different from men feeling more in the mood around a more attractive woman.
Guys tell us not to be surprised when more men want us when we lose weight. So I don’t understand why guys keep acting surprised that taking a woman out is a turn on for many of us. Especially since we have so many guys saying they can't some, they're lonely, no one will go out with them. Um, my guy friends who are willing to do what makes a woman feel cherished don’t have trouble finding dates. Their biggest problem is having so many of us swoon for them that they get picky.0 -
I don't expect any man to treat me like I'm his girlfriend just because he asked me out. But since when is being a gentleman reserved only for your girlfriend? If you don't treat me like I'm important to you before we get to the relationship stage, we'll never get there.
That is kind of the point I am trying to make though.
Him treating her as important is her conception of what he should do without allowing for him to find his own ways and exhibit them.
Case in point that I mentioned yesterday (and either got missed or ignored) how does one say that paying shouldn`t matter to him but then in the next breath say but if he doesn`t he isn`t getting another chance.
That person has assigned an action or monetary value to her company and then has the gall to say he should be ashamed or is not a gentleman/decent person for doing the same.0 -
Intelligent, successful, well paying job.
All three of these things apply to me. As I said earlier in this thread, I have been living on my own and paying my own bills for 11 years, and I am pretty sure I have never dated a man who makes more money than I do. I do not feel entitled to be "taken care of," I have no interest in being anyone's housewife, and one of the bigger motivators for me in wanting to establish myself professionally before settling down was that I didn't want to wake up divorced in 10 years and have no idea how to provide for myself because I'd never had to do it.
That doesn't mean I don't have any reason to think that if a man asks me out on a date, he should pay. That's a completely different thing than "I want you to pay my rent and my car note and buy me shoes and jewelry and take me on expensive vacations." I've got that covered.0 -
I think j4nash brings up a good point. As a matter of fact, the reason I'm not seeing someone right now is precisely because I don't have the financial means to pay for a date, and I sure as hell am not looking for a "provider". That sort of thinking is pretty dated as far as I'm concerned, and I would never in a million years date someone who believes that a woman is meant to stay at home and let him make all the money.
Unfortunately, I think I've seen more than my fair share of terrible marriages precisely because of this concept. It seems that a lot of evangelical Christians (I'm talking about the churches I was raised in; please don't jump on me and say it's different in your church. I'm sure it probably is.) have this idea that as soon as a woman gets married, she stops working. I know several girls who were trained as nurses making decent money who stopped working as soon as they got married, and now they're completely miserable because the family never has enough money. Gee, I wonder why? Women who stay at home and don't have the proper mindset (e.g. the ability to keep themselves busy and industrious) end up being absolutely fatal to any good marriage.
I realize this is just about a dinner date, but in reality, girls, if we're not willing to pay for a date, why should a man think we'll be any different if the relationship progresses to marriage?0
