Why am I so turned off by an educated woman?
Replies
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It has nothing to do with education, everything to do with his/her insecurities. Men have them, too. I'd probably be a bit insecure, myself, if my degree was from the University of Miami... :-)
Nice comment P!
The law school and business school worlds are very similar. In essence, JDs/MBAs from the Ivy League/Top 25 ranked schools are what matter most. Big companies/big law thinks Top 25 school degrees are what matters most in an education.
So you might see someone who comes from outside of a Top 25 JD/MBA with a chip on the shoulder and always feeling like there is something to prove because they often get passed over by the perceived top tier companies.
I don't think P's comment was that deep. I think it was an alum from one ACC school taking a dig at grads from another one.
Heh. That's actually kinda true.
--P0 -
The only problem is that too many times we relate education level to intelligence. I also dated someone who was very book smart and ended up getting her masters in business at an Ivy League school, but socially she would do things like walk into the guys bathroom and could not park a car to save her life. So I never really felt intimidated.
This is a very good point. I could care less what degrees a woman has (or doesn't have). But it's important she's intelligent. And when she doesn't know something, she's generally curious, and wants to know more. Lots of people weren't able to study at university for a variety of reasons: money, life situation, whatever.
Also, many people with degrees are rather dim, to be honest. Too many multiple choice tests at university, graded on a curve.
And of course there are many different types of intelligence: social, emotional, etc.
--P0 -
This is very true! My sister felt like she lived in my shadow since I was so high achieving throughout school, but now as adults, I see that she has much better social intelligence than me. I talked to her about it a couple years ago - and let her know that I envy the success she has had with all the friendships she has built and maintained through her life, which is something I couldn't do. Scholastic achievement is certainly not the only measure of intelligence!And of course there are many different types of intelligence: social, emotional, etc.
--P
I also agree what someone else said earlier (Castadiva, I think) - the women you might encounter at work that throw their credentials in your face are showing you their professional personna. Most people, whether they are aware of it or not, are a different person at work than at home in their leisure time. Don't judge all educated women you could be romantically involved with based on the professional contacts you have had with women! That assessment is way off kilter!0 -
if you think women want to feel controlled, you need to go back to kindergarten. women want to feel safe. they don't want to feel controlled. they might want a CONFIDENT male, but that doesn't translate to CONTROLLING male.
This is pretty much spot on. There's a difference between being in a loving supportive relationship, and being controlled. If you can't tell the difference that's kind of a huge problem.as for the "women want an alpha" comment DMZ made. women want confidence, but a true alpha male typically ends up being too jerky for women to stay with for too long. true alphas usually don't give a rats @ss about what a woman is thinking or feeling, or what her opinion is.
Actually it's the opposite. Y'all seem to be basing your definition of Alpha off the wolf study that was done in the 50's and was disproved in the 70's as being misleading and inaccurate. The true alpha doesn't need to constantly assert authority. The true alpha is confident and laid back and steps in only when necessary. It's the people that are insecure and posturing constantly because they're afraid of losing their titles that are the problem.
I would be lying if I said part of the reason I have spoken so vehemently against Mike in the past is because it's f*cking scary that people with his mentality still exist. It has crossed my mind that he comes across as abusive, but I don't think I'd want to step across and assert that right away.
I think we can all agree that the person that rubs your face in ANYTHING is annoying. Education isn't the only tool that can be annoying, it's just another. The type of person that would do that, would find anything to try and remind you that they think they're better. It is pretty clear though, Mike wants a woman that NEEDS him and won't want to strike out on her own. You can't do that with a woman that knows she's not a slave to a man.
Believe it or not, I take a submissive role in my romantic relationships too (but not my friendships, oddly enough). Even despite all that I remember that I don't NEED that other person, there will be someone else that can fulfill that role of alpha male. So a woman can be submissive, but still be strong and independent. Mike just wants a woman who lacks that last part, and that's the what I find so creepy.0 -
This is very true! My sister felt like she lived in my shadow since I was so high achieving throughout school, but now as adults, I see that she has much better social intelligence than me. I talked to her about it a couple years ago - and let her know that I envy the success she has had with all the friendships she has built and maintained through her life, which is something I couldn't do. Scholastic achievement is certainly not the only measure of intelligence!And of course there are many different types of intelligence: social, emotional, etc.
--P
I also agree what someone else said earlier (Castadiva, I think) - the women you might encounter at work that throw their credentials in your face are showing you their professional personna. Most people, whether they are aware of it or not, are a different person at work than at home in their leisure time. Don't judge all educated women you could be romantically involved with based on the professional contacts you have had with women! That assessment is way off kilter!
So if a guy asserted that it is just his professional persona to be belittling so as to keep an organized hierarchy it would also be okay?
All I ask for is consistency.0 -
^^^^ A man's view for the win, thanks P! :drinker:I genuinely am surprised that men seem to prefer less intelligent women. More surprised some here are open about it. And I guess that's admirable (their openness). Can't really understand why anyone woud want to be in a relationship with someone who is not intelligent. For me, it's like a preference for unattractive people.
Janie has a great point here. Most (none?) of us do not know Mike IRL but if he is 100% honest on the board, he should at least understand how he is perceived. I think this is especially important when someone is so polarizing. A good lesson for all of us.If I were Mike, I would want to know this, as unintentionally giving women this vibe could very well be the reason I'm still single.
I wonder if this goes back to the conversation about areas of the country? The chance that a woman would feel the need to do that here in Boston seems less likely to me. Could it be that women do have more to prove in places where the majority aren't educated or hold certain jobs? Or perhaps they do feel belittled in their career by men in general (and you specifically by her words to you)? This is a question I'm posing, so please note that I am not assuming anything here...She then threw in my face that she graduated top of her class at U. of Miami Law School and asked me what I've accomplished on the academic side. Completely uncalled for and I've ONLY experienced this with female co-workers. I'm sure men do it too, but it hasn't happened to me.
We all have our impressions of people colored by events and interactions in life and I wonder if you are willing to take a step back and listen to what you wrote?
Perhaps it is just me and really am hoping to be constructive here even if you don`t take it that way but my perception,especially of late is that you are embittered to some degree with men due to things you have hinted at as far as personal events in your life.
That may be justified but if it begins to control you what is the gain from it.
Look at your last paragraph...while not accusatory it still insinuates that the lady described might be justified in her actions because of either men in general or Mike personally.
Things don`t always have to be the blame of a male and that is what I see you almost always trying to do.
She could just as easily be miserable person.
I have found that nasty *kitten* people can equally come equipped with a penis or a vagina.
You are probably going to be upset that I say this but it is what I see and in that light the "outrage" at times ironic.
Not trying to be hurtful but honest and hope you can take it that way. :flowerforyou:
Carl, I'm not upset, but I just don't think that you understood that last comment as I meant it (clearly communication is a two way street, so not sure which side the meaning was lost on...). No where did I say that woman was justified in saying what she said. I asked a question if location has anything to do with how or if women feel the need to prove themselves in business (we've had discussions about how areas of the country vary so this to me was a logical carry over from that). I agree that miserable people come in both genders.
I'd also like to address the point you made about me being bitter. Funny, because in real life I am anything but bitter (Katefab is the only Peep who knows me in person but I'm sure she could back me up on that). And there really isn't anything going on in my life currently that would lead me to have become bitter. Unfortunately, I think Single Peeps has done the most to cause any attitude in recent times. Frankly I'm really disappointed with the direction this group has taken. In the beginning I used to learn a lot about all perspectives. Now it's just a bunch of groupies who cater to Mike and DM's opinions (to hear biased, degrading remarks about women??) and to constantly be told the women here are wrong (yes, Carl, even you said Kits was wrong a few weeks ago about something even though most of the women backed her up...I'll try to find that thread...and you wouldn't explain why even after being asked specifically). I am NOT bitter, but I am realizing that this group probably is no longer a good fit for me since my opinions are rarely respected and the two mods who spend the most time here BOTH skew to a male perspective (yes, I am aware that you do not see that about yourself - and that's probably unconsciously why you picked SB as the female mod - but it shines brighter than you know reading both of your posts). Not trying to be a Grinch here, just being honest about what I see from my perspective too. I never wish any ill intent or rudeness, so I hope you understand I'm just trying to be honest about how I feel and see the group progressing. :flowerforyou:0 -
^^^^ A man's view for the win, thanks P! :drinker:I genuinely am surprised that men seem to prefer less intelligent women. More surprised some here are open about it. And I guess that's admirable (their openness). Can't really understand why anyone woud want to be in a relationship with someone who is not intelligent. For me, it's like a preference for unattractive people.
Janie has a great point here. Most (none?) of us do not know Mike IRL but if he is 100% honest on the board, he should at least understand how he is perceived. I think this is especially important when someone is so polarizing. A good lesson for all of us.If I were Mike, I would want to know this, as unintentionally giving women this vibe could very well be the reason I'm still single.
I wonder if this goes back to the conversation about areas of the country? The chance that a woman would feel the need to do that here in Boston seems less likely to me. Could it be that women do have more to prove in places where the majority aren't educated or hold certain jobs? Or perhaps they do feel belittled in their career by men in general (and you specifically by her words to you)? This is a question I'm posing, so please note that I am not assuming anything here...She then threw in my face that she graduated top of her class at U. of Miami Law School and asked me what I've accomplished on the academic side. Completely uncalled for and I've ONLY experienced this with female co-workers. I'm sure men do it too, but it hasn't happened to me.
We all have our impressions of people colored by events and interactions in life and I wonder if you are willing to take a step back and listen to what you wrote?
Perhaps it is just me and really am hoping to be constructive here even if you don`t take it that way but my perception,especially of late is that you are embittered to some degree with men due to things you have hinted at as far as personal events in your life.
That may be justified but if it begins to control you what is the gain from it.
Look at your last paragraph...while not accusatory it still insinuates that the lady described might be justified in her actions because of either men in general or Mike personally.
Things don`t always have to be the blame of a male and that is what I see you almost always trying to do.
She could just as easily be miserable person.
I have found that nasty *kitten* people can equally come equipped with a penis or a vagina.
You are probably going to be upset that I say this but it is what I see and in that light the "outrage" at times ironic.
Not trying to be hurtful but honest and hope you can take it that way. :flowerforyou:
Carl, I'm not upset, but I just don't think that you understood that last comment as I meant it (clearly communication is a two way street, so not sure which side the meaning was lost on...). No where did I say that woman was justified in saying what she said. I asked a question if location has anything to do with how or if women feel the need to prove themselves in business (we've had discussions about how areas of the country vary so this to me was a logical carry over from that). I agree that miserable people come in both genders.
I'd also like to address the point you made about me being bitter. Funny, because in real life I am anything but bitter (Katefab is the only Peep who knows me in person but I'm sure she could back me up on that). And there really isn't anything going on in my life currently that would lead me to have become bitter. Unfortunately, I think Single Peeps has done the most to cause any attitude in recent times. Frankly I'm really disappointed with the direction this group has taken. In the beginning I used to learn a lot about all perspectives. Now it's just a bunch of groupies who cater to Mike and DM's opinions (to hear biased, degrading remarks about women??) and to constantly be told the women here are wrong (yes, Carl, even you said Kits was wrong a few weeks ago about something even though most of the women backed her up...I'll try to find that thread...and you wouldn't explain why even after being asked specifically). I am NOT bitter, but I am realizing that this group probably is no longer a good fit for me since my opinions are rarely respected and the two mods who spend the most time here BOTH skew to a male perspective (yes, I am aware that you do not see that about yourself - and that's probably unconsciously why you picked SB as the female mod - but it shines brighter than you know reading both of your posts). Not trying to be a Grinch here, just being honest about what I see from my perspective too. I never wish any ill intent or rudeness, so I hope you understand I'm just trying to be honest about how I feel and see the group progressing. :flowerforyou:
You see though PJ,you assume that an opinion is inherently right or wrong based on a gender,to insinuate that SB is somehow a traitor just reinforces what I said,you only want an opinion that that assumes a victimization of women.
I have disagreed with Kits at times and agreed as well.
I have disagreed with Mike and also was very clear with my annoyance at some things he posts.
There are only a half a dozen guys at best that post here with any regularity compared to twice or three times that female.
Look up thread where Janie (who I absolutely adore and think she knows that) said that the whatever books writings about abusive men could apply to several prominent posters here how many ladies even noticed what a backhanded hit that was?
We all have gender biases as well as life biases,I accept that in myself and was looking for a lady that also seemed to accept that...a guy is not always right,a lady is not always right.
SB does and I have never ever asked her or told her to be a rubber stamp on any opinion I have.
She deserves an apology.
Yes that part really angers me to have it suggested.0 -
There is some support behind the ideal man actually being a beta w alpha tendencies. Women might initially be attracted to a true alpha, but after a while he's just jerky and too difficult to be around and get
To know. So, males might be better of being confident, comfortable in the decision making role in the beginning and be willing to sit back when the times are hers to lead :-)Huh. All I know is the most abusive, hurtful, damaging, controlling and mean individuals I have ever had the misfortune to be around have ALL been women.
In my current relationship, I think my boyfriend believes he is somewhat alpha and/or possibly a little more decisive and in charge...but I know without a doubt that if I needed or wanted to control any situation, I could extremely easily. This suits me. My strength is seemingly very apparent to all...but in some things I look up to and defer to him. I do this purposely. Not because I am stupid or can't do it on my own...but because I enjoy feeling like a girl, a little taken care of for once and having pride in a protective, masculine partner for a change. It feeds his ego..in a good way, though I am not faking my admiration for him. I guess because I do not lack for confidence, I don't feel the need to have the spotlight, be the smartest or talk about my accomplishments. It comes out anyway. His ego would probably be bruised before mine..and honestly I enjoy making him feel good about himself.
"She stoops to conquer"! Mwah hahahaha
I did call him an elitist snob last night jokingly...we will see how that goes down in future..0 -
Now it's just a bunch of groupies who cater to Mike and DM's opinions
Really? We have groupies? I didn't know that I was a part of Led Zeppelin. This must be an awesome dream! :laugh:
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Wow, we are really using the terms alpha and beta in a serious discussion? Reading those terms being said in a serious manner always makes me cringe.So, males might be better of being confident, comfortable in the decision making role in the beginning and be willing to sit back when the times are hers to lead :-)
This is the exact type of hypocrisy I despise. Some women believe they want "an alpha male" when there are decisions to be made that they don't want to deal with. HOWEVER when they want to intervene in other situations, this is the kind of crap they come up with "sit back when the times are hers to lead". Give me a break, talk about hypocrisy.
I understand that many women prefer a man who takes charge, that being said, if he is taking charge and making all the hard decisions, and you are letting him because it is "easier" for you, then you need to shut your trap when he is taking charge.
THAT BEING SAID, I know a guy in real life where the role is reverse, his wife wears the pants and makes the decisions. Guess what, he shuts his trap when she makes those decisions.
If you don't like taking charge, be consistent. Male or female, if you forfeit the responsibility don't try and take it back when it suits you.
Side Note: Seriously, stop with the alpha beta terms.0 -
^ i was going to say this as well.. human beings are not wolves. we are complex enough to be multiple things at once depending on the situation. if you aren't then personally i wouldnt be announcing that anywhere much less on the interwebz0
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Darlings,
I have absolutely no issue with it being suggested that I side or back a male point of view or that I am a traitor to the female perspective or even that I am a groupie. I represent no one except myself. I will always, always look to maintain balance and to create harmony where possible. That is just me. Mike, in particular knows that I will call him or anyone else on something if I truly feel it was hurtful or innapropriate. I do this privately though, and hopefully gently.
Honestly..I find all these gender battles and issues rather amusing. There are more women than men in the group, and I do want to make sure both "sides" stay represented. But it really isn't about sides..is it? Big picture..we are just a group of strangers..all single and trying to either amuse ourselves or find our way..or somewhere in between.0 -
^^^^ A man's view for the win, thanks P! :drinker:I genuinely am surprised that men seem to prefer less intelligent women. More surprised some here are open about it. And I guess that's admirable (their openness). Can't really understand why anyone woud want to be in a relationship with someone who is not intelligent. For me, it's like a preference for unattractive people.
Janie has a great point here. Most (none?) of us do not know Mike IRL but if he is 100% honest on the board, he should at least understand how he is perceived. I think this is especially important when someone is so polarizing. A good lesson for all of us.If I were Mike, I would want to know this, as unintentionally giving women this vibe could very well be the reason I'm still single.
I wonder if this goes back to the conversation about areas of the country? The chance that a woman would feel the need to do that here in Boston seems less likely to me. Could it be that women do have more to prove in places where the majority aren't educated or hold certain jobs? Or perhaps they do feel belittled in their career by men in general (and you specifically by her words to you)? This is a question I'm posing, so please note that I am not assuming anything here...She then threw in my face that she graduated top of her class at U. of Miami Law School and asked me what I've accomplished on the academic side. Completely uncalled for and I've ONLY experienced this with female co-workers. I'm sure men do it too, but it hasn't happened to me.
We all have our impressions of people colored by events and interactions in life and I wonder if you are willing to take a step back and listen to what you wrote?
Perhaps it is just me and really am hoping to be constructive here even if you don`t take it that way but my perception,especially of late is that you are embittered to some degree with men due to things you have hinted at as far as personal events in your life.
That may be justified but if it begins to control you what is the gain from it.
Look at your last paragraph...while not accusatory it still insinuates that the lady described might be justified in her actions because of either men in general or Mike personally.
Things don`t always have to be the blame of a male and that is what I see you almost always trying to do.
She could just as easily be miserable person.
I have found that nasty *kitten* people can equally come equipped with a penis or a vagina.
You are probably going to be upset that I say this but it is what I see and in that light the "outrage" at times ironic.
Not trying to be hurtful but honest and hope you can take it that way. :flowerforyou:
Carl, I'm not upset, but I just don't think that you understood that last comment as I meant it (clearly communication is a two way street, so not sure which side the meaning was lost on...). No where did I say that woman was justified in saying what she said. I asked a question if location has anything to do with how or if women feel the need to prove themselves in business (we've had discussions about how areas of the country vary so this to me was a logical carry over from that). I agree that miserable people come in both genders.
I'd also like to address the point you made about me being bitter. Funny, because in real life I am anything but bitter (Katefab is the only Peep who knows me in person but I'm sure she could back me up on that). And there really isn't anything going on in my life currently that would lead me to have become bitter. Unfortunately, I think Single Peeps has done the most to cause any attitude in recent times. Frankly I'm really disappointed with the direction this group has taken. In the beginning I used to learn a lot about all perspectives. Now it's just a bunch of groupies who cater to Mike and DM's opinions (to hear biased, degrading remarks about women??) and to constantly be told the women here are wrong (yes, Carl, even you said Kits was wrong a few weeks ago about something even though most of the women backed her up...I'll try to find that thread...and you wouldn't explain why even after being asked specifically). I am NOT bitter, but I am realizing that this group probably is no longer a good fit for me since my opinions are rarely respected and the two mods who spend the most time here BOTH skew to a male perspective (yes, I am aware that you do not see that about yourself - and that's probably unconsciously why you picked SB as the female mod - but it shines brighter than you know reading both of your posts). Not trying to be a Grinch here, just being honest about what I see from my perspective too. I never wish any ill intent or rudeness, so I hope you understand I'm just trying to be honest about how I feel and see the group progressing. :flowerforyou:
I was reading this on my phone, as I'm sick in bed, and was compelled to log on to a computer to respond properly. PJ, you make some excellent points in your original post - a couple I'd intended to make myself this morning, but couldn't be bothered fighting with my phone over. I for one would be very sad to see you leave the Peeps - your perspective is always expressed respectfully and articulately, and your insight is often considerable. I'm really not sure where Carl's response to your last paragraph came from - to me it was very clear, and a very good point. I'm absolutely certain there are geographical areas, as well as fields of work, in which highly-educated women are very much still a minority, and very likely do feel more need to defend or justify their position using the armour at their disposal - their qualifications, for example - than they might do in other locations or fields where their position is less rareified.
Carl - whatever you like to think, discrimination and being diminished for our gender in the workplace is still very much a part of many womens' experience. The fact that so many of the women here have experienced this in one way or another should tell you that we are not pulling this out of thin air. The woman in question may not have handled the situation in the best way possible, but it's possible that situationally, in that specific set of circumstances, it was an understandable reaction. Your posts of late, and especially your responses to some of the more outspoken women here, have increasingly, in my view, taken on a patronising and dismissive tone. I have chosen not to respond to some of the comments directed my way, because, quite frankly, even I get tired of fighting the same battle over and over again, offering my experiences, opinions and impressions to add to the general conversation/discussion, only to be told that they are "nonsense". However, I personally think you owe PJ an apology for the above.
I would be sad to leave the Peeps behind - you all lighten up and enliven my very boring work day, but the blatantly misogynistic tone of many threads recently is becoming disturbing. You all know I enjoy a good verbal battle, but lately, I find myself walking away more often than engaging, because I increasingly feel that we are going round and round in circles.
It's shocking, and disappointing, to me to find such mean-spirited and small-minded attitudes towards women in the educated, professional men of my own generation as I have sometimes seen displayed here. That's not to say that we women are perfect, or that personal preferences and variations of personality should be disallowed, but I do hope that we can move forward allowing that the perspectives of all, informed by their own experiences, are valid, and can be argued over, but should not be dismissed out of hand.
My apologies if anything here is unclear or does not make sense - I'm running a high temperature and the edges of a migraine.
Re. the intelligence issue - my theory, based on my observations, is that most educated women appear to want a partner of roughly equal intellect. Most men of similar educational achievement appear to prefer a partner whose intellect is 10-20 points lower, at least, on the IQ scale than their own. There is a tendency to equate advanced academic qualification with higher IQ, though this is not always an accurate corelation, perhaps leading us back to the OP.0 -
Maybe I'm just really weird then. I don't mind him making dinner Choices, or movie choices, or vacation choices, or chore
Choices, or scheduling choices, etc. But I want my way when it comes to things like how I dress, what color the paint on the walls is, where I shop, etc. If I want to breast feed my kids, I will. I would not be ok w a man telling me I couldn't because he thinks it's weird.
I rarely ever have to have my way, but there are some things I won't give up. Going to church is one. He could tell me he has plans for us during church, well, I'm not gonna go.....
I guess I'm unique in this :-)0 -
I should like to add...if anyone here would like me to step down as moderator and volunteer his/herself in my place, I am absolutely willing if that is the wishes of the collective.
Could I, perhaps should I moderate the sexist and/or male dominated tone right out of the group? I could.
However I really don't need a tiresome and conflict-fraught job. Real life is tough enough. I will gladly step down if that is the expectation. It would be quite boring as only a group of women though.
Perhaps we should all take a little hiatus from the inflamatory topics for a bit...or just for fun...even argue the other "side".
(I do not believe in sides. That might be my problem)0 -
Maybe I'm just really weird then. I don't mind him making dinner Choices, or movie choices, or vacation choices, or chore
Choices, or scheduling choices, etc. But I want my way when it comes to things like how I dress, what color the paint on the walls is, where I shop, etc. If I want to breast feed my kids, I will. I would not be ok w a man telling me I couldn't because he thinks it's weird.
I rarely ever have to have my way, but there are some things I won't give up. Going to church is one. He could tell me he has plans for us during church, well, I'm not gonna go.....
I guess I'm unique in this :-)
You're not alone - and I'd want to be consulted on the first bunch too, in the majority of situations. I'm looking for a partner, not a parent.0 -
Don't you dare go anywhere or change anything!! You are perfect right where you are, doing what you're doing!!!
Grown ups just need to act like grown ups ;-) neither
Gender is superior. And we need each in this world. One cannot continue the human race
Without the other ;-)
Once everyone has their temper tantrum the dust will settle!!
(( hugs))I should like to add...if anyone here would like me to step down as moderator and volunteer his/herself in my place, I am absolutely willing if that is the wishes of the collective.
Could I, perhaps should I moderate the sexist and/or male dominated tone right out of the group? I could.
However I really don't need a tiresome and conflict-fraught job. Real life is tough enough. I will gladly step down if that is the expectation. It would be quite boring as only a group of women though.
Perhaps we should all take a little hiatus from the inflamatory topics for a bit...or just for fun...even argue the other "side".
(I do not believe in sides. That might be my problem)0 -
^^^^ A man's view for the win, thanks P! :drinker:I genuinely am surprised that men seem to prefer less intelligent women. More surprised some here are open about it. And I guess that's admirable (their openness). Can't really understand why anyone woud want to be in a relationship with someone who is not intelligent. For me, it's like a preference for unattractive people.
Janie has a great point here. Most (none?) of us do not know Mike IRL but if he is 100% honest on the board, he should at least understand how he is perceived. I think this is especially important when someone is so polarizing. A good lesson for all of us.If I were Mike, I would want to know this, as unintentionally giving women this vibe could very well be the reason I'm still single.
I wonder if this goes back to the conversation about areas of the country? The chance that a woman would feel the need to do that here in Boston seems less likely to me. Could it be that women do have more to prove in places where the majority aren't educated or hold certain jobs? Or perhaps they do feel belittled in their career by men in general (and you specifically by her words to you)? This is a question I'm posing, so please note that I am not assuming anything here...She then threw in my face that she graduated top of her class at U. of Miami Law School and asked me what I've accomplished on the academic side. Completely uncalled for and I've ONLY experienced this with female co-workers. I'm sure men do it too, but it hasn't happened to me.
We all have our impressions of people colored by events and interactions in life and I wonder if you are willing to take a step back and listen to what you wrote?
Perhaps it is just me and really am hoping to be constructive here even if you don`t take it that way but my perception,especially of late is that you are embittered to some degree with men due to things you have hinted at as far as personal events in your life.
That may be justified but if it begins to control you what is the gain from it.
Look at your last paragraph...while not accusatory it still insinuates that the lady described might be justified in her actions because of either men in general or Mike personally.
Things don`t always have to be the blame of a male and that is what I see you almost always trying to do.
She could just as easily be miserable person.
I have found that nasty *kitten* people can equally come equipped with a penis or a vagina.
You are probably going to be upset that I say this but it is what I see and in that light the "outrage" at times ironic.
Not trying to be hurtful but honest and hope you can take it that way. :flowerforyou:
Carl, I'm not upset, but I just don't think that you understood that last comment as I meant it (clearly communication is a two way street, so not sure which side the meaning was lost on...). No where did I say that woman was justified in saying what she said. I asked a question if location has anything to do with how or if women feel the need to prove themselves in business (we've had discussions about how areas of the country vary so this to me was a logical carry over from that). I agree that miserable people come in both genders.
I'd also like to address the point you made about me being bitter. Funny, because in real life I am anything but bitter (Katefab is the only Peep who knows me in person but I'm sure she could back me up on that). And there really isn't anything going on in my life currently that would lead me to have become bitter. Unfortunately, I think Single Peeps has done the most to cause any attitude in recent times. Frankly I'm really disappointed with the direction this group has taken. In the beginning I used to learn a lot about all perspectives. Now it's just a bunch of groupies who cater to Mike and DM's opinions (to hear biased, degrading remarks about women??) and to constantly be told the women here are wrong (yes, Carl, even you said Kits was wrong a few weeks ago about something even though most of the women backed her up...I'll try to find that thread...and you wouldn't explain why even after being asked specifically). I am NOT bitter, but I am realizing that this group probably is no longer a good fit for me since my opinions are rarely respected and the two mods who spend the most time here BOTH skew to a male perspective (yes, I am aware that you do not see that about yourself - and that's probably unconsciously why you picked SB as the female mod - but it shines brighter than you know reading both of your posts). Not trying to be a Grinch here, just being honest about what I see from my perspective too. I never wish any ill intent or rudeness, so I hope you understand I'm just trying to be honest about how I feel and see the group progressing. :flowerforyou:
I was reading this on my phone, as I'm sick in bed, and was compelled to log on to a computer to respond properly. PJ, you make some excellent points in your original post - a couple I'd intended to make myself this morning, but couldn't be bothered fighting with my phone over. I for one would be very sad to see you leave the Peeps - your perspective is always expressed respectfully and articulately, and your insight is often considerable. I'm really not sure where Carl's response to your last paragraph came from - to me it was very clear, and a very good point. I'm absolutely certain there are geographical areas, as well as fields of work, in which highly-educated women are very much still a minority, and very likely do feel more need to defend or justify their position using the armour at their disposal - their qualifications, for example - than they might do in other locations or fields where their position is less rareified.
Carl - whatever you like to think, discrimination and being diminished for our gender in the workplace is still very much a part of many womens' experience. The fact that so many of the women here have experienced this in one way or another should tell you that we are not pulling this out of thin air. The woman in question may not have handled the situation in the best way possible, but it's possible that situationally, in that specific set of circumstances, it was an understandable reaction. Your posts of late, and especially your responses to some of the more outspoken women here, have increasingly, in my view, taken on a patronising and dismissive tone. I have chosen not to respond to some of the comments directed my way, because, quite frankly, even I get tired of fighting the same battle over and over again, offering my experiences, opinions and impressions to add to the general conversation/discussion, only to be told that they are "nonsense". However, I personally think you owe PJ an apology for the above.
I would be sad to leave the Peeps behind - you all lighten up and enliven my very boring work day, but the blatantly misogynistic tone of many threads recently is becoming disturbing. You all know I enjoy a good verbal battle, but lately, I find myself walking away more often than engaging, because I increasingly feel that we are going round and round in circles.
It's shocking, and disappointing, to me to find such mean-spirited and small-minded attitudes towards women in the educated, professional men of my own generation as I have sometimes seen displayed here. That's not to say that we women are perfect, or that personal preferences and variations of personality should be disallowed, but I do hope that we can move forward allowing that the perspectives of all, informed by their own experiences, are valid, and can be argued over, but should not be dismissed out of hand.
My apologies if anything here is unclear or does not make sense - I'm running a high temperature and the edges of a migraine.
Re. the intelligence issue - my theory, based on my observations, is that most educated women appear to want a partner of roughly equal intellect. Most men of similar educational achievement appear to prefer a partner whose intellect is 10-20 points lower, at least, on the IQ scale than their own. There is a tendency to equate advanced academic qualification with higher IQ, though this is not always an accurate corelation, perhaps leading us back to the OP.
The other day in the thread about a woman deceiving a man about birth control you made the remark regarding if it was okay that you would get back on the matter if it was okay for a woman to nudge a man to "grow up" in this matter.
I am not sure what you meant by that and you never came back to it but as I showed when the situations could be reversed there is absolutely no excuse that can be made for doing such a thing yet your words did suggest a possibility.
Did you intend that to be a way to suggest men could deserve such...I don`t know but it sounded like maybe.
Open your eyes to what is written here by all and understand that all kinds of offenses could be taken or given.
To adamantly state or assume that everything is wrong because of the other gender is self defeating,think about it.
I have learned a lot about ladies here,most times it is a "I never realized that" sort of thing and others I roll my eyes at because it is either foreign to me or because what I see happen in reality does not match.
That does not make it any less a reality though and something one must understand.
Failing to do so,or being resentful of it,like it or not is not going to advance a person in social interactions.0 -
The other day in the thread about a woman deceiving a man about birth control you made the remark regarding if it was okay that you would get back on the matter if it was okay for a woman to nudge a man to "grow up" in this matter.
I am not sure what you meant by that and you never came back to it but as I showed when the situations could be reversed there is absolutely no excuse that can be made for doing such a thing yet your words did suggest a possibility.
Did you intend that to be a way to suggest men could deserve such...I don`t know but it sounded like maybe.
As I recall, I think I said it was too early in the morning for such a complex moral issue (meaning the question in its' entirety), and by the time I came back, the thread had moved on, so I went with the flow, instead of moving backwards. My stance on this, from both sides of the fence, which I started to write in response to your 'situations reversed' post, is that, if pregnancy is not an option for an individual, man or woman, then that person should take personal responsibility for their own protection, rather than relying on their partner. There are numerous non-hormonal forms of birth control the woman you mentioned could use to improve and control her own protection. Had I come back to the specific 'nudging' issue, I suspect I would have said something along the lines of "Not a good or morally-acceptable idea, though the temptation might be understandable in a woman married to an eternal manchild."
If you mean what I think you do, I'm reasonably sure this is something I don't generally do. Aware of the difficulties faced by women? Sure. Aware that some of these difficulties are created by an historically-patriarchal society? Absolutely. Aware that women sometimes create difficulties for themselves and their fellow women? You betcha.Open your eyes to what is written here by all and understand that all kinds of offenses could be taken or given.
To adamantly state or assume that everything is wrong because of the other gender is self defeating,think about it.I have learned a lot about ladies here,most times it is a "I never realized that" sort of thing and others I roll my eyes at because it is either foreign to me or because what I see happen in reality does not match.
That does not make it any less a reality though and something one must understand.
Failing to do so,or being resentful of it,like it or not is not going to advance a person in social interactions.
I'm sorry, I can't figure out what your point is. Would you mind clarifying?0 -
<
Gets popcorn. Waits for the show.
I was wrong. I really think all you people suck!0 -
I should like to add...if anyone here would like me to step down as moderator and volunteer his/herself in my place, I am absolutely willing if that is the wishes of the collective.
Could I, perhaps should I moderate the sexist and/or male dominated tone right out of the group? I could.
However I really don't need a tiresome and conflict-fraught job. Real life is tough enough. I will gladly step down if that is the expectation. It would be quite boring as only a group of women though.
Perhaps we should all take a little hiatus from the inflamatory topics for a bit...or just for fun...even argue the other "side".
(I do not believe in sides. That might be my problem)
I think you should do as little as possible as a moderator. I've been in here over a year and have found this group works itself out... people that can't hack it leave and people that are purposely stupid get bored after awhile and also leave. If it weren't for the controversial topics I'd have left months ago.
As far as you leaving your post, I'll admit I was extremely nervous having a Canadian moderator
, but feel you have done a good job of being neutral. 0 -
You see,you still refuse to condemn the actions in the original hypothesis...really suggesting that the woman in a presumed trusting relationship should not be trusting.
Would you say the same if that had been the op by a lady?
The point is that everyone here for various reasons can have a negative or positive feeling about the other sex.
I have in life met some absolute horrid women...does that at times color my impressions...yes.
Do I let those influence my take on all that don`t act as they do...no.
Does it at times ring a bell when some one does...sure and need to recognize why.
As I said,there are many direct and indirect shots at guys,for the most part we ignore them or do address them civilly.
Do you think that Flams being sarcastic post the other day about there being a world outside of the female dominated MFP one where a mans differing opinion is not rammed down just came from nowhere?
Recognize your own biases is all.
Edit,that was intended to be a response to Castadiva,not sure how I messed up the quote thingie. :ohwell:0 -
You see,you still refuse to condemn the actions in the original hypothesis...really suggesting that the woman in a presumed trusting relationship should not be trusting.
Would you say the same if that had been the op by a lady?
Yes, I would (and I'm fairly sure I stated my disapproval of the rest of the OP in the thread in question). If something is a serious issue for you, then you need to take control of it for yourself. If you really don't want your sexual partner to get pregnant, wear a condom, use spermicide, and if you as a female don't want to get pregnant, make sure you're protected with a form of protection you control. Nothing's 100%, except abstinence or a hysterectomy, but you can, and should, make damn sure you personally are taking responsibility for prevention of pregnancy (not to mention STD transmission) if a child is not an option for you. Use of one method of BC may reduce the chances significantly. Use of two forms - one on each side, if you like - reduces the chances to almost nil - that's as close as you're going to get.The point is that everyone here for various reasons can have a negative or positive feeling about the other sex.
I have in life met some absolute horrid women...does that at times color my impressions...yes.
Do I let those influence my take on all that don`t act as they do...no.
Does it at times ring a bell when some one does...sure and need to recognize why.
As I said,there are many direct and indirect shots at guys,for the most part we ignore them or do address them civilly.
Do you think that Flams being sarcastic post the other day about there being a world outside of the female dominated MFP one where a mans differing opinion is not rammed down just came from nowhere?
Recognize your own biases is all.
Oh, I do. I can never experience being male, as much as I think it would be fascinating, so my opinions are inherently biased by my gender and my experiences as a member of that group. That's not to say though that I can't use my imagination and intellect to extrapolate a reasonable understanding or perspective on the experiences of a man.
Here's a thought re. Flam's post. Do you think the female members of this group would respond as vehemently as they sometimes do to something they didn't feel attacked and belittled by? Would anyone bother getting riled up, let alone spend half an hour composing a response to it, if the content, or the wording, didn't hit a sore spot? If lots of a group are getting upset about something, it seems to me there's likely to be a shared or common reason. Dissenting opinions, expressed pleasantly and with due respect, may provoke argument, but not usually "ramming" attacks. On the other hand, telling a group that their experiences are invalid, and cutting them and their opinions down as 'unrealistic', 'inconsistent' or simply 'past their best', without being a member of that group yourself or even attempting to understand and appreciate the common perspective of that group, is likely to unleash a storm.
Edited to try to fix quoting system. Have I succeeded?0 -
I think you should do as little as possible as a moderator.
As far as you leaving your post, I'll admit I was extremely nervous having a Canadian moderator , but feel you have done a good job of being neutral.
Do as little as possible...finally a job I am perfect for!
Yeah Canadians.. definitely known to be enormous dictators and neutral in nothing! 0 -
You see though PJ,you assume that an opinion is inherently right or wrong based on a gender,to insinuate that SB is somehow a traitor just reinforces what I said,you only want an opinion that that assumes a victimization of women.
I have disagreed with Kits at times and agreed as well.
I have disagreed with Mike and also was very clear with my annoyance at some things he posts.
There are only a half a dozen guys at best that post here with any regularity compared to twice or three times that female.
Look up thread where Janie (who I absolutely adore and think she knows that) said that the whatever books writings about abusive men could apply to several prominent posters here how many ladies even noticed what a backhanded hit that was?
We all have gender biases as well as life biases,I accept that in myself and was looking for a lady that also seemed to accept that...a guy is not always right,a lady is not always right.
SB does and I have never ever asked her or told her to be a rubber stamp on any opinion I have.
She deserves an apology.
Yes that part really angers me to have it suggested.
Carl, You just proved a good portion of my point... no where did I say men and women need to be divided down party lines, that I believe women are victimized, or that SB was a traitor or a bad Mod. That is your negative word and all your assumptions from my post!! What I did say was that you (probably subconsciously...meaning not on purpose) chose her specifically because she often identifies MORE with the male perspective, which is why I used the word skewed. I am not asking her to step down. And I am also not apologizing to anyone for misunderstanding my meaning.
I agree with you that there are people of both genders who say rude, negative, hurtful, etc. things on this board. However, when the going gets rough and discussions get heated, the women are often belittled and patronized and I, for one, don't appreciate it. Again, I do not, and never have felt like a victim because of my gender so please do not put words in my mouth. I'd also like to thank Castadiva for chiming in...she and I have never had any off-thread discussions so I am glad that someone else sees and corroborates what I'm saying. And truthfully, she is much more eloquent than I am, so I appreciate that too. :flowerforyou:
And again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, just calling things like I see them.0 -
You see,you still refuse to condemn the actions in the original hypothesis...really suggesting that the woman in a presumed trusting relationship should not be trusting.
Would you say the same if that had been the op by a lady?
Yes, I would (and I'm fairly sure I stated my disapproval of the rest of the OP in the thread in question). If something is a serious issue for you, then you need to take control of it for yourself. If you really don't want your sexual partner to get pregnant, wear a condom, use spermicide, and if you as a female don't want to get pregnant, make sure you're protected with a form of protection you control. Nothing's 100%, except abstinence or a hysterectomy, but you can, and should, make damn sure you personally are taking responsibility for prevention of pregnancy (not to mention STD transmission) if a child is not an option for you. Use of one method of BC may reduce the chances significantly. Use of two forms - one on each side, if you like - reduces the chances to almost nil - that's as close as you're going to get.The point is that everyone here for various reasons can have a negative or positive feeling about the other sex.
I have in life met some absolute horrid women...does that at times color my impressions...yes.
Do I let those influence my take on all that don`t act as they do...no.
Does it at times ring a bell when some one does...sure and need to recognize why.
As I said,there are many direct and indirect shots at guys,for the most part we ignore them or do address them civilly.
Do you think that Flams being sarcastic post the other day about there being a world outside of the female dominated MFP one where a mans differing opinion is not rammed down just came from nowhere?
Recognize your own biases is all.
Oh, I do. I can never experience being male, as much as I think it would be fascinating, so my opinions are inherently biased by my gender and my experiences as a member of that group. That's not to say though that I can't use my imagination and intellect to extrapolate a reasonable understanding or perspective on the experiences of a man.
Here's a thought re. Flam's post. Do you think the female members of this group would respond as vehemently as they sometimes do to something they didn't feel attacked and belittled by? Would anyone bother getting riled up, let alone spend half an hour composing a response to it, if the content, or the wording, didn't hit a sore spot? If lots of a group are getting upset about something, it seems to me there's likely to be a shared or common reason. Dissenting opinions, expressed pleasantly and with due respect, may provoke argument, but not usually "ramming" attacks. On the other hand, telling a group that their experiences are invalid, and cutting them and their opinions down as 'unrealistic', 'inconsistent' or simply 'past their best', without being a member of that group yourself or even attempting to understand and appreciate the common perspective of that group, is likely to unleash a storm.
Edited to try to fix quoting system. Have I succeeded?
Do you also think that there is at times an over sensitivity or even (my perception to be fair) a desire to be offended.
Life serves us all crap sandwiches,there is no "fairness" inherent in it.
Have women been treated as chattel in the past?
Yes and why it amuses me when they cling to the nice chivalry part of those days as being a romantic trigger.
Is everything fair today?
No,sometimes to the benefit of a guy and others a gal,so be it.
Get by it and live your life,being resentful won`t change anything. :flowerforyou:0 -
You see though PJ,you assume that an opinion is inherently right or wrong based on a gender,to insinuate that SB is somehow a traitor just reinforces what I said,you only want an opinion that that assumes a victimization of women.
I have disagreed with Kits at times and agreed as well.
I have disagreed with Mike and also was very clear with my annoyance at some things he posts.
There are only a half a dozen guys at best that post here with any regularity compared to twice or three times that female.
Look up thread where Janie (who I absolutely adore and think she knows that) said that the whatever books writings about abusive men could apply to several prominent posters here how many ladies even noticed what a backhanded hit that was?
We all have gender biases as well as life biases,I accept that in myself and was looking for a lady that also seemed to accept that...a guy is not always right,a lady is not always right.
SB does and I have never ever asked her or told her to be a rubber stamp on any opinion I have.
She deserves an apology.
Yes that part really angers me to have it suggested.
Carl, You just proved a good portion of my point... no where did I say men and women need to be divided down party lines, that I believe women are victimized, or that SB was a traitor or a bad Mod. That is your negative word and all your assumptions from my post!! What I did say was that you (probably subconsciously...meaning not on purpose) chose her specifically because she often identifies MORE with the male perspective, which is why I used the word skewed. I am not asking her to step down. And I am also not apologizing to anyone for misunderstanding my meaning.
I agree with you that there are people of both genders who say rude, negative, hurtful, etc. things on this board. However, when the going gets rough and discussions get heated, the women are often belittled and patronized and I, for one, don't appreciate it. Again, I do not, and never have felt like a victim because of my gender so please do not put words in my mouth. I'd also like to thank Castadiva for chiming in...she and I have never had any off-thread discussions so I am glad that someone else sees and corroborates what I'm saying. And truthfully, she is much more eloquent than I am, so I appreciate that too. :flowerforyou:
And again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, just calling things like I see them.
Intent or not it was implied and as far as for my reasons was completely wrong.
As noted,I have not jumped on every offensive thing a lady has said,nor do I guys whether I agree or disagree.
I asked SB because what is important is the ability to not take an official action despite ones personal feelings...could you honestly tell me you could?
It pisses me off to no end that one would suggest in any way I wanted a tool,right from the start and in the introduction thread I was clear I wanted a female take on things to make sure gender biases I admit to have did not influence any official actions.
I don`t give a rats *kitten* what anyone wants to think of me,I can walk away in a minute and my life does not change but she did not deserve that and hate that anyone would think I put her in that position.0 -
At any rate, I'm not sure even why it matters to anyone what the moderators' opinions are...
Or do they get a "double vote" because they are "moderators"? No...
Then is it implied that the moderators do not allow men or women to voice their opinions freely? That threads have been closed because they were "anti-men" or "anti-women"?
I've seen threads being discussing unpleasant sides of both men and women, objectifying both men and women, and I've always felt free to disagree with the opinion of the moderators on the said topics, which everyone should have the right to do.
Are the people who think the moderators are "male minded" implying that some topics should have been closed or some people should have been banned? That MFP moderation tools should have been used? If not, then clearly there is no need to use the word "moderator" in any argument.
As for agreeing that the mod team is generally either "gender neutral" or "male oriented", I do... Not that we should care about it anyway (unless they are preventing women to voice their opinion, which I haven't seen happening so far).
What would a "female oriented" moderator achieve? Nothing more and nothing less than is already being done (by what I mean: good moderation is neutral anyway and people shouldn't let their opinion get in the way of it, it has nothing to do with "gender biases" is what I mean :laugh: ).0 -
^^ A great point. I don't actually do anything as a moderator. If someone lodges a complaint I will attempt to resolve it fairly and neutrally...my opinion simply does not matter at that point.
But.. unless I got the job description wrong, moderators do not police threads and take people to task. So it really doesn't matter who I am or what I think, as long as my conflict management skills are solid.
I do find it funny that I am seen as having a "male" perspective. I am very much a female and by simple virtue of that...aren't my thoughts and feelings also?0 -
You see though PJ,you assume that an opinion is inherently right or wrong based on a gender,to insinuate that SB is somehow a traitor just reinforces what I said,you only want an opinion that that assumes a victimization of women.
I have disagreed with Kits at times and agreed as well.
I have disagreed with Mike and also was very clear with my annoyance at some things he posts.
There are only a half a dozen guys at best that post here with any regularity compared to twice or three times that female.
Look up thread where Janie (who I absolutely adore and think she knows that) said that the whatever books writings about abusive men could apply to several prominent posters here how many ladies even noticed what a backhanded hit that was?
We all have gender biases as well as life biases,I accept that in myself and was looking for a lady that also seemed to accept that...a guy is not always right,a lady is not always right.
SB does and I have never ever asked her or told her to be a rubber stamp on any opinion I have.
She deserves an apology.
Yes that part really angers me to have it suggested.
Carl, You just proved a good portion of my point... no where did I say men and women need to be divided down party lines, that I believe women are victimized, or that SB was a traitor or a bad Mod. That is your negative word and all your assumptions from my post!! What I did say was that you (probably subconsciously...meaning not on purpose) chose her specifically because she often identifies MORE with the male perspective, which is why I used the word skewed. I am not asking her to step down. And I am also not apologizing to anyone for misunderstanding my meaning.
I agree with you that there are people of both genders who say rude, negative, hurtful, etc. things on this board. However, when the going gets rough and discussions get heated, the women are often belittled and patronized and I, for one, don't appreciate it. Again, I do not, and never have felt like a victim because of my gender so please do not put words in my mouth. I'd also like to thank Castadiva for chiming in...she and I have never had any off-thread discussions so I am glad that someone else sees and corroborates what I'm saying. And truthfully, she is much more eloquent than I am, so I appreciate that too. :flowerforyou:
And again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, just calling things like I see them.
Intent or not it was implied and as far as for my reasons was completely wrong.
As noted,I have not jumped on every offensive thing a lady has said,nor do I guys whether I agree or disagree.
I asked SB because what is important is the ability to not take an official action despite ones personal feelings...could you honestly tell me you could?
It pisses me off to no end that one would suggest in any way I wanted a tool,right from the start and in the introduction thread I was clear I wanted a female take on things to make sure gender biases I admit to have did not influence any official actions.
I don`t give a rats *kitten* what anyone wants to think of me,I can walk away in a minute and my life does not change but she did not deserve that and hate that anyone would think I put her in that position.
Again, you are completely misunderstanding me here and there is very little point in continuing this conversation. To clarify, I never said SB was a tool (your word) or that you were using her.0
