5/3/1 Support Thread
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I do not want to derail this thread, it's about 5/3/1, but then again this is basically a conversation about assessory work to go with 5/3/1, another kind of template. I really don't want to change my protocol, since I think the foundations are optimal. I hit everything twice a week, and it has both a strength and hypertrophy component. I also look forward to going to the gym 5 days a week, as a general wellness/lifestyle choice.
Keeping that in mind, I do recognize that as the strength portion is getting heavier, I need to make a change. One thing that I took last night to think about is the way I am structuring my assistance work. After my main lifts, I haven't been staggering my rep ranges regardless of whether or not it's been a heavy day (Days 1,2) or a hypertrophy day (Days 3,4,5). I am always doing 12 reps for the same weight, and I think that could be hindering my recovery.
[some exposition, I tried doing fewer reps and higher weight for assessory work like he programs on Day1, 2 but it was making my body ache.]
Bottom line: I'm thinking about reverting back to doing just 6-8 reps on Day 1 & 2, but using the 12 rep weight instead of going havier, kind of like a weekly deload, leaving the hard work to the main lift sets at the beginning which are my focus. It's esentially cutting the work done on Day 1 & 2 in half, which should leave me much fresher for the next part of the week, and more likely to recover.
Of course I would also continue to do a full deload every 6 weeks like usual, and reset my main lifts if needed.0 -
I do not want to derail this thread, it's about 5/3/1, but then again this is basically a conversation about assessory work to go with 5/3/1, another kind of template. I really don't want to change my protocol, since I think the foundations are optimal. I hit everything twice a week, and it has both a strength and hypertrophy component. I also look forward to going to the gym 5 days a week, as a general wellness/lifestyle choice.
Keeping that in mind, I do recognize that as the strength portion is getting heavier, I need to make a change. One thing that I took last night to think about is the way I am structuring my assistance work. After my main lifts, I haven't been staggering my rep ranges regardless of whether or not it's been a heavy day (Days 1,2) or a hypertrophy day (Days 3,4,5). I am always doing 12 reps for the same weight, and I think that could be hindering my recovery.
[some exposition, I tried doing fewer reps and higher weight for assessory work like he programs on Day1, 2 but it was making my body ache.]
Bottom line: I'm thinking about reverting back to doing just 6-8 reps on Day 1 & 2, but using the 12 rep weight instead of going havier, kind of like a weekly deload, leaving the hard work to the main lift sets at the beginning which are my focus. It's esentially cutting the work done on Day 1 & 2 in half, which should leave me much fresher for the next part of the week, and more likely to recover.
Of course I would also continue to do a full deload every 6 weeks like usual, and reset my main lifts if needed.
ChrisDavey is a very accomplished lifter and very well educated, so you should definitely give some consideration to his opinion. Just in case you didn't understand what Chris's statement meant by "gear", he means steroids and other things. Don't forget that when these higher-end bodybuilders are using routines like this, they're shooting some combination of PED's that may include testosterone, clomid, winstrol, decca, HGH etc, etc, in addition they're probably also injecting insulin as well which can really help speed-up recovery. There's a lot more behind the scenes going on than just the standard program. We don't need to de-rail the thread, so I'll say my last piece on this subject. If you're feeling tired and things are really slowing down for you, then you should keep it simple and just stick to one or the other especially if you're doing a cut. I just re-read part of Lyle McDonald's book on the Rapid Fatloss Handbook and he talks a fair amount about exercise while on a cut or deficit. He basically says to keep the intensity low during this time. If you're concerned about your body composition, exercise plays a small part overall and most of your "cut" will come from your diet.
I'm not saying this stuff to be difficult; I just want to see you succeed in hitting your goals. Sometimes it's not about what we do in the gym, but rather what we don't do in the gym.
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Just made 18 reps on my "first set last" today. Bench press 5's week. Was actually going for 20, but pretty satisfied with 18
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Awesome taso!
Jnick. Little days keep the intensity high but reduce the volume so high percentage of 1rm but fewer sets.0 -
Just made 18 reps on my "first set last" today. Bench press 5's week. Was actually going for 20, but pretty satisfied with 18
Woah, that's a lot of reps sir! I'll have to try straight-up max reps one day. I've been doing the paused reps and I generally can't get very many that way. LOL.0 -
I forgot to post my good workout, LOL. Yesterday was 3/3/3 cycle 3 day for OHP. My training max is already part of my worksets now, so I hope I don't stall out soon but so far it felt really good. Yesterday I worked up to a Joker set of 165lbs and rep'd it twice. 145 is my TM for the heaviest set of 3 and on my way back down I rep'd 145 for 6 but I only repped 135 for 4; I guess I was just exhausted after that. The 5 sets of paused reps were brutal after that, used a 3-count for each rep.0
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Looks like you may need to recalculate your 1RM. You're getting into cardio territory with that many reps! Heh!Just made 18 reps on my "first set last" today. Bench press 5's week. Was actually going for 20, but pretty satisfied with 180 -
Looks like you may need to recalculate your 1RM. You're getting into cardio territory with that many reps! Heh!Just made 18 reps on my "first set last" today. Bench press 5's week. Was actually going for 20, but pretty satisfied with 18
Ha! Taso is a crossfitter... LOL, j/k.0 -
Hah. This is just my 2nd cycle after coming back from a long (4 month) hiatus... hence making nice rep records.0
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Looks like you may need to recalculate your 1RM. You're getting into cardio territory with that many reps! Heh!Just made 18 reps on my "first set last" today. Bench press 5's week. Was actually going for 20, but pretty satisfied with 18
Ha! Taso is a crossfitter... LOL, j/k.
I'm not making jokes about CF anymore as a mate of mine has come from 100% crossfit to PL and in his second comp went:
200kg squat
140kg bench
225kg deadlift
at 70kg BW.
Pretty sure he is a freak though
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Looks like you may need to recalculate your 1RM. You're getting into cardio territory with that many reps! Heh!Just made 18 reps on my "first set last" today. Bench press 5's week. Was actually going for 20, but pretty satisfied with 18
Ha! Taso is a crossfitter... LOL, j/k.
I'm not making jokes about CF anymore as a mate of mine has come from 100% crossfit to PL and in his second comp went:
200kg squat
140kg bench
225kg deadlift
at 70kg BW.
Pretty sure he is a freak though
That's nuts! I don't see how somebody can get so strong doing straight CrossFit, the programming just ain't there for it. I didn't even realize that CF folks bench pressed, thought it was all Oly Lifts, Deadlifts, Front Squats...0 -
he learnt to bench press at a PL gym but still just trains CF!
Also his 200kg squat is high bar and no wraps. Farkin crazy hey!0 -
he learnt to bench press at a PL gym but still just trains CF!
Also his 200kg squat is high bar and no wraps. Farkin crazy hey!
That is rather crazy; he is definitely the exception to the rule I think.
Today was cycle 3 - 3/3/3 Squat Day
I got like 4-hours of sleep and absolutely did not feel like working out today but I got my *kitten* out of bed and went anyway. Everything kinda' felt like crap but I managed a Joker Set of 345 for 2 reps (+5lbs) so it wasn't a total loss. I think I noticed today that I feel like my quads are weak and kinda mentioned this last week. Today I did 5 sets of 10 on the Leg Press and really pushed the weight, almost couldn't finish the last rep on sets 4 and 5, so I was happy with that. I'm going to do more leg pressing for the next few weeks and see how my squat strength reacts to that. I did leg pressing while using the Cube and my DL and Squat both increased, hopefully that wasn't a false positive. We'll see...0 -
Alright, so I took the weekend to review my routine, and I think I've hit on something using his BBB Var 2 Template.
Goals: Hit everything twice a week, include more rest (added a rest day), consolidate assessory work into compound movements for efficiency.
Day 1:
Bench 5/3/1
Press 5 sets x (Wk1 65%x10) / (Wk2 70%x8) / (Wk3 75%x6)
Dips
Lateral Raises
Incline BB
Curls
Day 2:
Deadlift 5/3/1
Squat 5 sets x (Wk1 65%x10) / (Wk2 70%x8) / (Wk3 75%x6)
Rows
Lat PD
Shrugs
Abs
--Rest--
Day 3:
Press 5/3/1
Bench 5 sets x (Wk1 65%x10) / (Wk2 70%x8) / (Wk3 75%x6)
Dips
Laterals
Incline BB
Curls
--Rest--
Day 4:
Squat 5/3/1
Deadlift or SL DL 5 sets x (Wk1 65%x10) / (Wk2 70%x8) / (Wk3 75%x6)
Rows
Lat PD
Shrugs
Abs
--Rest--
Only thing I haven't figured out is what rep scheme I want to use for assessory work. I'm thinking 8 reps for the first two days, & 12 for Day 3 & 4. This would also cut down on volume from the straight 12 I was doing before..0 -
Alright, so I took the weekend to review my routine, and I think I've hit on something using his BBB Var 2 Template.
Goals: Hit everything twice a week, include more rest (added a rest day), consolidate assessory work into compound movements for efficiency.
Only thing I haven't figured out is what rep scheme I want to use for assessory work. I'm thinking 8 reps for the first two days, & 12 for Day 3 & 4. This would also cut down on volume from the straight 12 I was doing before..
Nice, this all looks much more reasonable. My only real comments would be on your two lower body days, you need some posterior chain work. Cut the lat pulldowns for something like, Good Mornings, Straight-Leg DL's, Romanian DL's, Back Hyperextensions, Glute Bridges, Pull-Through's, DB / KB Raises, Glute Ham Raises (assumiing gym has bench). Work these in the range of 8-10 for sure, 5 sets is Jim's recommendation. Lily, DeFranco, and Simmons basically make the same recommendations. You get plenty of Lat work in with the Rows. Although with that in mind, if you can do chin-ups you can always superset them with Dips on upper body day. Don't forget that you can ADD volume as needed by pyramiding your main exercise's worksets (i.e. 3/3/3+/ 2nd 3+ / 1st 3+). You may not need to do Shrugs twice a week. Between OHP, OHP as BBB, DL'ing, you're hitting your traps pretty good as-is. Add the Shrugs to your DL workout and cut them from your Squat day perhaps.0 -
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I realized a bit after that I completely neglected calves... not that I want huge calves lol, but they are important as well. So I'm going to hit them on Day 2 & 4.
That means I need to make room, and since DB Rows and Lat PD are *similar*, I decided to either alternate them, doing DB Rows on Day 2 and Lat PD on Day 4, or just drop them all together. I like the idea of supersetting dips/chins.
Lat Pulldowns are a good exercise though, am I going to grow my upper lats by doing just DB Rows?
Otherwise I'm doing 3 sets of each assessory lift like I always have, so I'm going to be doing 8 reps & 12 reps respectively. (main lifts and their varients are at 10 reps).
As for posterior chain, I noticed that too, and I'm def going to be doing the straight leg deadlifts on Day 4. I've got lower back issues, so this might take some messing around, but I don't want to neglect the hamstrings.0 -
To clarify, I meant drop Lat PD not Rows.0
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Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I realized a bit after that I completely neglected calves... not that I want huge calves lol, but they are important as well. So I'm going to hit them on Day 2 & 4.
That means I need to make room, and since DB Rows and Lat PD are *similar*, I decided to either alternate them, doing DB Rows on Day 2 and Lat PD on Day 4, or just drop them all together. I like the idea of supersetting dips/chins.
Lat Pulldowns are a good exercise though, am I going to grow my upper lats by doing just DB Rows?
Otherwise I'm doing 3 sets of each assessory lift like I always have, so I'm going to be doing 8 reps & 12 reps respectively. (main lifts and their varients are at 10 reps).
As for posterior chain, I noticed that too, and I'm def going to be doing the straight leg deadlifts on Day 4. I've got lower back issues, so this might take some messing around, but I don't want to neglect the hamstrings.
My upper lats seem to be at their best when I consistently do pull-ups / chin-ups and do some rowing. I am getting into the habit of making sure to do that and then once a week I do a "lat-blast" and load my weight on a hammer strength pulldown machine and do sets of 10. Basically, pull > hold for a 2-count, 2-to-3 second eccentric for 10 reps. I've noticed that as I maintain strong lats, my bench is good too. Which of course all the big guys say anyway, so it's not a revolutionary discovery on my part or anything. One thing that I like to do with PD's sometimes is to incorporate drop-sets on my last set just to really exhaust them.
I hear ya' on the lower back pain and I've been dealing with a lot of pain lately. One thing that you can do are walking lunges. Take a long stride and make sure your knee touches the ground. These hit the glutes pretty good actually. They look ridiculous but I'm going to try glute bridges too. Luckily when I workout int he morning there aren't many people around. LOL!!!
Once you get in the habit of doing this you'll get to the point where your accessory work isn't always planned. I do have a log written out for the next cycle but I often go just by how I feel and I may add or subtract something within a session or sometimes it is literally "by the book."0 -
So you're proporting alternating? I guess that's the superior option, since both movements are similar. The same group of synergistic muscles will be hit, but with a different target muscle each time. That would effectively hit the same things twice, just differently...
Yeah, I want to keep the workouts simple, and I like knowing exactly what I need to do in the gym, but of course I want a balanced routine too.0 -
So you're proporting alternating?
I don't necessarily alternate between chin's and PD's; if I can only do one I always do chin's and add PD's if time and energy allow. If I feel good after doing chin's I may go do some PD's on the Hammer Strength or cable. I feel like rowing hits the lats and back differently, more rear deltoid and rhomboid activation, so I kind of look at Rows as complete upper back training and chins/PD's as lats. I could be wrong in that view; it's just the feel I get while doing them.0 -
I ran 5/3/1 for about a 1yr with great results. I felt stalled out towards the end. So I gave the Cube Method a try. Ran it twice. (9 week Cycles).... I liked parts of it, but really didn't gain what I wanted from it... back to running 5/3/1, but with a Cube twist..
I'm rotating the 5/3/1 Days so I don't have a week of all 5's or 3's or 1's,... Been using DC Style Rest/Pause for assistence exercises and BB Days. It's a great way of taking a muscle group to close to failure in a short period of time. Allows for faster recovery...Which is important for having two BB days.
My First BB day is Biceps, Forearms and Light triceps.. The second BB day is focusing on Shoulders and weak links.
Also a Deload week my not be needed as often this way. I have been having great results with this version... I'm Calling RAM³
For some reason it's cutting Saturday off... It's an Off Day...0 -
So Sun/Mon was my first block with the new routine, doing the Upper Lower split. Yesterday was Deads and Squat, and it was tough... but it felt amazing. It's been a while since I've felt sore in my legs.
It's still tough to squat and dead, then move on to assessory work, but honestly I think I've hit a good balance here. Much easier to focus on Upper body or lower body/back, rather than doing two big lifts for for each in the same day.0 -
So I've had some crazy sleep issue lately and Monday night I actually didn't even sleep and missed 2 days of training. Today I combined OHP and DL into one session, BRUTAL! Luckily it's my 5/5/5/ week and I actually set PR's in both lifts. I rep'd 335 for 10 reps on the DL and OHP'd 135 for 10 reps. It's weird that I hit 10 reps in both lifts but I'm not one to argue with results. The funny thing is that I was friggin' gassed too because for my DL work I did my 2nd set again for max reps. I was going to do my 1st set again too but I figured I should save some "gas" for the OHP session.
After that I cut it short doing a tri-set of Chin-Ups, Dips, and Glute Bridges. I had never done Glute Bridges before and I was looking for a posterior chain exercise to take some stress off my lower back while still hitting that and my glutes and hammies for 4 sets of 10. It really didn't seem to do much for hammies but I'll wait 'till later to see if any DOM's sneaks in because I've never done that exercise. I want to do a 5th but I was pretty beat and I opt'd for some cardio, doing 10-minutes of interval sprints on the elliptical (10-sec sprint / 30-sec jog).0 -
I ran 5/3/1 for about a 1yr with great results. I felt stalled out towards the end. So I gave the Cube Method a try. Ran it twice. (9 week Cycles).... I liked parts of it, but really didn't gain what I wanted from it... back to running 5/3/1, but with a Cube twist..
I'm rotating the 5/3/1 Days so I don't have a week of all 5's or 3's or 1's,... Been using DC Style Rest/Pause for assistence exercises and BB Days. It's a great way of taking a muscle group to close to failure in a short period of time. Allows for faster recovery...Which is important for having two BB days.
My First BB day is Biceps, Forearms and Light triceps.. The second BB day is focusing on Shoulders and weak links.
Also a Deload week my not be needed as often this way. I have been having great results with this version... I'm Calling RAM³
For some reason it's cutting Saturday off... It's an Off Day...
It looks cool on paper but I guess I don't follow exactly. What would a sample workout look like for each day? I'm just curious. 0 -
So Sun/Mon was my first block with the new routine, doing the Upper Lower split. Yesterday was Deads and Squat, and it was tough... but it felt amazing. It's been a while since I've felt sore in my legs.
It's still tough to squat and dead, then move on to assessory work, but honestly I think I've hit a good balance here. Much easier to focus on Upper body or lower body/back, rather than doing two big lifts for for each in the same day.
Awesome, keep it going.0 -
This week's sleeping issues and social time has really ****ed with my workouts but I still squeeze them in. Today I had to combine my Squat and Bench session. Ugh. My Squat session wasn't bad, got 8 reps on my 5+ set. Unfortunately I wasn't very diligent in recording my reps last cycle so I can't recall if that's a PR, even, change, negative, or what. I set a bit of a PR on my bench today though while doing 190lbs for 15 reps. I was shocked, the weight still felt light after 10-reps and it wasn't really until that 12th rep where I started to feel it. My left elbow didn't react too well today but it's fine.
For accessory work I did a leg superset of Leg Pressing 5x10 and SLDL's @ 5x10. I was fairly drained after that and didn't do any DB bench or back work, hoping to do an accessory work day on Sunday, we'll see.
Happy Friday, happy lifting
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FYI, did stiff legged deadlifts for the first time last Fri. 5x10 at 135. Felt it more in my back at first... the DOMS in my hammies is something fierce lol
Definitely going to keep this up. Much more interesting exercise to do than stupid leg curls, and I feel it bigtime. Very excited about it.0 -
Tagging this to follow.0
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Hey I'm sure this is pretty varied, but what rep ranges do you guys use for your assessory work? Up untill now I've been pretty much doing 3x12 for everything. I'm giving some thought to using the rule of 50 for all my assessory work, though that would mean a good hour and a half in the gym each day.
Thoughts?0 -
I change it up a bit, but I typically do no more than 10 reps of my accessory work (except bodyweight stuff like push-ups, dips, pull-ups, etc.). I pretty much do 4x6 or 4x8 on most. Sometimes I do 3x8 on isolated triceps, but I hit them hard twice a week.Hey I'm sure this is pretty varied, but what rep ranges do you guys use for your assessory work? Up untill now I've been pretty much doing 3x12 for everything. I'm giving some thought to using the rule of 50 for all my assessory work, though that would mean a good hour and a half in the gym each day.
Thoughts?
A few weeks back, I noticed a correlation to increasing my weight on accessory work when I was doing four sets for a few weeks at a certain weight for 8 to 10 reps. Although, I didn't number-crunch to see if my brain was just recognizing a pattern based on this hunch or if it's just coincidence.0
