Thoughts, Epiphanies, Insights, & Quotables
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You have profound visual talent Bella. And amagical way with words.
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I was browsing through a cookbook and I was forcibly struck by this photo:
This is how my husband's plates/dishes/bowls always look when he's finished eating, even if the food is his absolute favourite.
My plate invariably looks like this....
Doesn't even have to be gooey chocolate cake that gets the practically-licked-clean treatment. If it's edible, it's eaten. Every last scrap.
Could this be a clue as to why I've had a lifetime of obesity?
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Right there with you! Not a scrap left behind. Even after losing over 100 lbs., I struggle with leaving behind non-worthwhile food. Also eating way too fast. I’m usually done before anyone else at the table.2
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Also eating way too fast. I’m usually done before anyone else at the table.
Yep, me too.
I went for lunch last week with a friend and she didn’t even pick up her knife and fork until the food had been on the table for ten minutes. When she finally started eating, she’d take a bite, put her cutlery down to continue what she was saying, then not take another forkful for five minutes. I was seething with frustration at having to try to slow down to match her pace. She finished eating (leaving over half her food untouched) a full hour after I did. I told my husband I’m never eating with her again!
She also declined dessert and suggested we hit the authentic Italian gelateria. Great idea. Except by the time we finally got there it was closed. And, get this, she didn’t seem even the slightest bit bothered.
Honestly, sometimes I think I belong to an entirely different species. Homo Insatiabliens.
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Your friend is fired for inhumane treatment of sentient beings and desserts (including gelato). Such
disregard is inconceivable!!!!🤷🏻♂️2 -
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TL/DR
Portion control and expectation management are linked issues I need to work on if I'm to have a hope of maintaining a healthy weight in the long term.
If I go to a party and there's a buffet table, I know intuitively that I'm expected to share the contents of that table with the other guests, rather than hog it all to myself. I may struggle with understanding how much it would be culturally acceptable for me to pile on my plate, but I would at least know that I had to share...
But in other situations, there's a different expectation. For instance, if I go to a restaurant and order a plate of food, I have the ingrained expectation that what gets placed in front of me is all mine, and it's reasonable and appropriate for me to clear my plate.
But, really, that expectation is unreasonable. Because I suspect that restaurant portions cater for the appetites (and calorie budgets) of strapping, hungry males, not 56-year-old five foot females like me.
Which means I ought to be appalled at being presented with a groaning plate of food designed to satisfy and satiate a hungry male. But I'm not appalled; I tuck in with gusto. I may not manage to clear the plate, but I'll have a damn good attempt. Then start looking at the dessert menu.
If I were to spend good money on a restaurant meal, I'd feel cheated and hard-done-by at having to eat the burger without the bun, the fries and the coleslaw. If the guys are having fries, I want fries too, dammit! And beer/wine. And dessert. Not grilled fish and veg, sparkling water and no dessert. It's dispiriting and tedious to live like that forever.
Doggy bags are an option, but not a particularly appealing one. Food is rarely as good when nuked the next day. And it wouldn't stop me feeling hard-done-by while everyone else is tucking in with abandon.
Running a higher deficit on the days preceding and following is another option - but not always feasible if I have several days of restaurant-eating in a row (e.g. on holiday).
Throwing caution to the wind is another option, but can't be done too regularly if I seriously want to maintain my weight loss.
Nicking a few chips off someone else's plate and a spoonful of their tiramisu is another option - but I'd have to have a dinner partner who's willing to share...and it doesn't entirely eradicate feelings of deprivation.
So the only real, long-term solution is to deeply internalise a 'true north' awareness of what an appropriate portion looks like for a person of my gender and stature, and to embed an expectation and inclination to always leave around half of what's placed in front of me - without resentment or discontent - so that clearing my plate becomes unthinkable. That's the only solution that hinges on proclivity and preference, and bypasses the need for iron resolve and tons of motivation.
Boy, that's going to take a lot of hard work, changing a lifetime's habits and mindset. If it's even possible....3 -
When I go out to eat, I try to remember it won’t be the last time in my life that I ever get to go out….I do not have to order everything on the menu!…1
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The portion issue with restaurant meals especially when eating out frequently... is incredibly real.
There are only three solutions I've ever found:
--reduce the amount of restaurant meals (I've definitely gone that route and COVID has "helped")
--order what you know you should order and screw the menu -- yes, I want my chicken breast without the sauce sorry not sorry
--accept that you will be gaining weight if you're eating out every day, right CCCGG??????
CCCGG does employ her own techniques at home: share with the other people at the table (everything ordered in common and don't be the first to attack and secure a bigger than proportionate portion). And the famous "eat once a day" or as per garfield compensate a bit before and after.
The compensate a bit does run its own risks.
There exists no perfect answer especially when the portions are definitely out of whack for the daily needs of most of us.2 -
One technique I’ll add in Pav, is to bring a to-go container along to the restaurant, and plan on leftovers for another meal. So if I was staying at a hotel for a work trip, I’d buy an ala carte dinner and save part of the protein for breakfast, rather than the carb-laden continental breakfast.
I used to travel for work and ate meals away from home frequently. I also picked up a small foldable travel food scale that can fit in a purse/ bag, and they have some that can fit in a pocket but that always seemed a balancing act to me. It was pretty easy to place the dinner plate on the scale and lift each portion, better than an all-out guess.
I also add in “overage” calories when eating out a lot or if I can’t tell what’s in the sauce, etc. I’ll add-in 25-33% of my best guess of the meal, it seems to be pretty accurate. 25% for things I can count (eggs) or estimate well or if I’m weighing the food, 33% if it’s an all-out guesstimate. That system served me well when traveling and losing/ maintaining for a few years.2 -
glass or cup is a "lifter" if often use to balance a plate on and still be able to see a small scale. Weight limit of scale could affect that.
I acknowledge that well trained hamsters may be able to grab go-to containers and separate out food ahead of time!!! or after the fact.
A couple of times my hamsters have even managed the "left-overs" bit... boy was I ever proud of myself for actually bringing some lamb with the lamb bones for the dog from the Greek restaurant... it ain't as if it has happened often! But it is more along the lines of hearing about it being practiced by other people
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I eat out rarely, at this point I'm feeling quite happy about that! Any of my travels were very low budget so food was usually a grocery store trip and a meal of whatever we picked up there - english cucumbers, cherry tomatoes, pita bread & hummus + whatever fruit looked especially good. With the occasional proper meal. If camping was involved, the little camp stove usually cooked up a lentil, potato, carrot stew in the evening and ... for one 6 week trip a few years ago (cycling though so allowances could be made) a daily cinnamon bun and chocolate milk.
Usually carried a knife for those cucumbers...lol...you would think I would grow tired of the pita and hummus, but not yet!
It has been a few years....I guess that is more than a few because it was a few years before the pandemic which doesn't come into my memory calendar it seems.
Next summer I'm dreaming of an adventure filled with cucumbers, tomatoes, pita and hummus!!2 -
I'm trying to discover any research that shows that leptin and ghrelin levels stabilise after X many years of maintenance. It would be nice to think they did, even if it took a few years to manifest. @PAV8888, are you aware of any studies?
I'm mindful of my best friend's dad, who was a recovering alcoholic. On her wedding day, eleven years ago, he had been sober for 8,124 days (i.e. 22 years and 3 months). At the wedding reception, someone pressed him to have a glass of champagne to toast the happy couple. He declined. They pressed some more. He succumbed because, after all, what harm could one small flute of champagne do?
He says that the rest of the day is a total blur. He couldn't focus on the speeches, the food, the dancing. All he could think about was how quickly he could get out of there to get his hands on some proper booze. On the way home he stopped at an alnight grocery store and bought a litre of whisky. Fourteen months later he'd lost his house, his business, his marriage. It took him another eight years to regain his sobriety.
He says there's no such thing as an ex-alcoholic, just an alcoholic in remission.
Is it the same for obesity? Can we ever be formerly-fat people? Or are we doomed to be always fat people in remission, needing to be ever-vigilant to prevent weight regain?
It would be nice to think that the first 5 years of mainenance are the hardest and that after that it gets easier...
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Personally I tend to believe it’s a lifetime thing always having to be a bit cautious. Not that it doesn’t get easier but the specter of regaining is always out there perhaps? The statistics on people regaining are pretty daunting. I know I have taken this journey many times over.
I treat calorie counting as a constant effort. As a reformed smoker (many years ago) I can still see where I could easily slip back into smoking again. Same with crazy overeating and weight gain. An extra cookie, larger portions, bad choices, mindless eating and the slide back begins.2 -
I agree Yoolypr - and I've hunted for research and I don't believe there is anything solid out there, Bella. There are still very few researchers willing to consider the addictive aspect of certain foods! I kinda think that we have decades to go before there will be reliable studies to learn from.
I personally was over 300 pounds a few decades ago, lost 130 lbs, kinda maintained that for 15 years but once things went a bit awry, I lost control of eating in a blink. and was almost up to 300 again in a nanosecond.
It seems there are so many components to the issue. I have my suspicions that in some ways it might even be easier to just give up eating completely - like when you quit smoking/drinking/narcotics.
For me - in a way, I can. I can completely give up the foods that are my triggers. They aren't necessary for survival. But I keep on thinking - what harm would just a little do.
These past two weeks of over eating - especially grain-based foods - have me literally limping around the house. The inflammation is running crazy! I know I don't tolerate it well - and know that they have me craving constantly - but for whatever reason I'm inclined to forget every now and again. Especially when I feel the need for some numbness. They beat alcohol hands down for that.
I have a few days to get it under control so I don't go into surgery in a full out inflammation storm - and come out still under control of the wicked wheat goodies!
There are "independent" researchers covering stuff like this - but most of them also have something to gain - like the books they are marketing, so their research always feel somewhat compromised.2 -
Both the above. Will see about posting from desktop in a bit1
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My own experience is that weight loss is a manageable - and sometimes even enjoyable - process, aided and abetted by the weekly morale boost of a loss on the scale. It has its own impetus, its own rewards, its own compensations.
Once you move into the maintenance phase, it's much, much harder. Take away the weekly morale boost of the loss on the scale (and the pats on the back, the gasps of astonishment from folks who haven't seen you for a while etc.) and all you're left with is your own internal motivation and willpower. When your own body is bombarding you with 'eat! eat! eat!' signals, it can feel like you're under siege.
Personally I've never had difficulty with the weight loss phase, but I've been a 100% failure at maintenance. I have to believe that it IS possible for me to maintain a lower weight, but I've completely lost my former complacency. I know it's going to be hard. I'm trying to prepare myself for it mentally, without making it harder for myself by doom-mongering. After all, SOMEONE has to be in the 5% of people who lose a lot of weight and keep it off...and with the mutual support we get from this group, we all have at least a fighting chance of beating the odds.3 -
That will be us, Bella. We will be that 5% - because we have each other and are slowly learning from past mistakes!
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PS, I agree with Laurie that sometimes complete removal of trigger foods is the best course of action. I have an all-or-nothing type-A personality. Denial is possible for me, but moderation is harder.
I read one poster on the message boards who was seriously contemplating an NG tube if they could persuade a physician to go along with the plan. Now that struck me as over-kill. Banishment of trigger foods is possible - maybe even desirable - but I wouldn't want to give up eating and drinking completely!2 -
I either lose weight or gain weight so I guess the last six months has been some example of victory ….the only thing I have learned is that if I binge then I need to take the pounds back off again….the thought of doing this the rest of my life ( probably between 15 to 20 more years ) is rather sobering!….you do not see many women in their last years of life weighing over 300 lbs out and about!…I guess that is why I want to get the rest of this weight off once and for all….I want to be one of those older ladies out and about at a healthy weight!…0
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That's such a great aim, Connie! With intrinsic motivation like that, and support from your pals here, you can definitely succeed!1
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I've run into some real life issues here so I'm having trouble posting
To begin with and by the sounds of it you're showing a few signs of having drawn things at their speed limits.
Discussed elsewhere this is not weight loss and done it is integrated long-term weight management
I have not found clearcut answer of whether everyone is affected by the increase hunger signals and by adaptive thermogenesis and by changes in hormones and neurotransmitters and how long it takes for these to resolve including if these ever resolve without a period of weight gain
At the same time there are hints and anecdotal evidence
One of the biggest predictors of continuing to maintain is length of maintenance without major regain
Is this self fulfilling? Maybe. But I think that things do resolve after time
The anecdotal information is that immediately following weight loss and let's face it that's whether fast or slow appetite enjoyment of food subconscious hormonally driven signals do get us ready to eat back and regain.
The bounce back may be harder the sharper and longer the loss
Whether luck or design my own path was a year of incredibly slow loss at the end of the faster losses. We are talking less than a pound a month
Which was then followed by another year of very small losses while trying to duplicate the previous and only going down like three or four lbs for the year Almost all of it in the first 4 months
And then if you will the realization that hey pretty much maintaining and should keep going
Throughout this remember I had been playing with what I was eating and f e introduced strategic fats and carbs that I had reduced (potatoes first, noodles but not pasta, etc)
And there's no question that in that time frame especially into the second year let's just say that my quest for the diet brownies severely decreased upon eating a couple of normal ones 😹 (reduction in degree of food ideations caused by deficit)
And realized that by keeping at it the underlying urge had reduced. Assumption hormonal rebound or acceptable equilibrium
Note that even a slow weight reduction in 2020 +we are talking about a measly 4lbs of weight trend+ over 4 months below the levels maintained since 2017 was followed by a distinct seeking everything in sight phase for about 8 months and classic yoyo to 1lb above previous equilibrium before the "urge" subsided
So knowing what to expect.... and it still doesn't work because hormones not conscious
But we seek to regulate with conscious behavior
So the hamster supervision has to continue I would say, conservatively, to the 2 to 5 year mark
And you're applying external regulation to your unconscious urges (hence my reliance on metrics and logging to bring visibility)
And it's easy to be complacent. But primary, I think, this is not weight loss, but long term weight and self management which is very worthwhile to do as we age 👍
And I have to go deal with real life issues!🤷🏻♂️1 -
I’ve maintained my over 100 lb. weight loss for over a year now within +/- 5 lbs. But it was only through constant logging, planning and vigilance. Not obsessive but mindful. I still have the last 25 lbs to go and need to step up my planning.
What I’d love to understand is WHY. Why is food and weight a struggle for me when others can thoughtlessly maintain a reasonable BMI? Hubby, for example, does not gain weight, is not enormously active or careful about eating and snacks all day long. I have two sisters who nibble chocolates and pastry all day without gaining weight.
The best I can deduce is quantity of food, frequency and some internal mechanism that stops them from overeating. I obviously don’t have that nor can hope to acquire it in this lifetime. But I do wish some research could definitively explain WHY.2 -
Although we have a degree of control over our weight and lifestyle, we don’t have control of our height or body sizes and shapes…I am from a long line of robust,strong large framed farm women from mostly Germany on my mothers side…my dads side were smaller framed except for my dad who must have been a surprise to his small in stature parents!…I am always going to be tall, have long legs and big arms!…genetics are so weird!…my mom was tall and had a dark complexion, her only sibling was petite with blue eyes and blonde hair with a fair complexion…and yet her two daughters, my cousins and I are all similar in height and body shapes!…their brother is tiny and petite….we are really screwed up lol1
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Connie: our general shape vs weight is a different story.
It is funny. I was looking for some pics of his house for my dad and the search brought up a series of pictures of me (at that location) in April 2015.
Well into weight loss, just about a full 12 months into "trying to lose some weight" and 16 months after starting the "I've got to move more" process. I just looked up my weight and I would have been between 198 and 195lbs. I ended 2015 at 166. 2016 at 157. 2017 at 155... and stayed around there more or less, though I have to admit to being closer to 157/158 now as opposed to anything else.
Point is not that... point is that when I saw the first pic in the series I saw the same me that I see today except for the angle that was making me look fatter... oh, wait a second, I then realized looking at the rest of the pics that I **WAS** fatter (you could easily see it from the side shots especially but the back and front ones too)... but it was the same body/body type/issues that I do or do not like! (Take a guess which side of the liking fence I'm on!
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Same body... just more stuffed and much less resilient and able to be moved around.2 -
My observations of 'naturally slim' women is that they simply don't eat as much as I do, and they burn more calories.
I used to think they'd just been dealt a better hand than me, and could eat limitless amounts of food and forego all exerise, and remain effortlessly slim. Then I observed them more closely.
My three main 'test subjects' were my mom, my MIL and my best friend. All three have never been overweight a day in their lives, yet they never diet and never do any formal exercise. I've spent countless hours in the company of all three, so I've observed them up close and personal in numerous settings and on multiple occasions.
My secondary test subjects were the 7 women that I shared an office with for six years. Four were 'naturally slim'; three were overweight or obese. We spent 40 hours a week together, so there was ample opportunity to watch the dynamics around food and activity.
My observations?
Eating-wise, the 'naturally slim' women seemed at first glance to eat a lot, but it was deceptive. They actually snacked far less than the overweight/obese women, and the food they snacked on tended to be less calorie dense or more nutrient-rich. Less sweets/biscuits/cakes/crisps, more fruit, nuts etc. They saved most of their eating for actual meal times, and then tended to select nutrient-rich foods. If they chose less healthy food, they tended to eat a smaller amount, and didn't indulge too frequently. It didn't seem to be conscious 'dieting'; it was more a case of being attuned to their bodies' needs. Often they'd say they were hungry, but then still delay eating for an hour or more, until it was an actual meal time. They seemed to have a greater propensity and ability to delay gratification, and to tolerate hunger without it affecting their mood, concentration or performance. Food didn't seem to snag their thoughts and play on their mind - if there were unhealthy snacks available, more often than not they could happily ignore them or just take a little and then seemingly forget about the remainder.
Activity-wise, the 'naturally slim' women in the office were noticeably more active than the overweight/obese women. They fidgeted, they had ants in their pants, they were constantly up out of their chairs at the slightest excuse, as if sitting still was an effort and a challenge. If an errand needed to be run, you could guarantee that one of the slim ones would offer to do it. Anything to avoid sitting still for long. Similarly, my mom, MIL and best friend are on the go from breakfast til bedtime, rarely sitting still for long, always keeping busy with some task or other. They burn a ton of NEAT calories just from constantly moving around, even though they don't formally exercise. They couldn't sit still through a whole movie if their lives depended on it.
None of this is scientific evidence, just my anecdotal observations of 7 'naturally slim' women and three overweight ones. Not a whit of empirical proof. But interesting to me nonetheless, and endlessly thought-provoking.
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But I challenge you whether this was "natural" behaviour vs "I don't mind doing things this way" behaviour vs conscious "management".
My own experiment indicates similar observations but a higher degree of "management" or "rules" among the "naturals".
"I am not hungry so I won't continue eating and finishing this delectable dessert and I don't seem to mind it".... vs ME: what you mean you not eating that dessert? OF course I'm not hungry... but I am not stuffed either to the point of not being able to move! And the dessert tastes good. Surely we won't leave it for another person or another time? Or pick one treat a day? Of course I'm having it... and another... and another! <--- hmmm.... supervisor hamster has to step in here and try to derail the freight train!
[BTW how is derailing a train a good thing now?!?!?!]
Anyway. I think that we do not necessarily give full credit to the degree of weight management other people apply.
AND, even if "they" don't actively spend time and effort managing their weight and we have to... so what?
Forget Disneyland sizing (or hanging upside down in the pirate boat at Expo 86 with the thigh restraint undone and only the shoulder cage holding me inside). At age 48 I turned down a free whitewater rafting trip because I couldn't physically do it. And sort of went... so I am planning to eventually retire and do... what? What exactly given that I'm already curtailing what I do based on my current but potentially controllable with effort physical limitations?
So if there is a higher management effort/price to pay than someone else... oh well. Investing in one's self and all that jazz! 1 -
I agree about genetics and slimmer people able handle food quantities, hunger, movement better. I guess what I still can’t figure out is what makes one go from simply overweight to severe obesity as I did. Why could I not see or stop that from going so far? The pounds kept piling on and somehow I couldn’t stop. Photos and mirrors surely showed me the truth but it didn’t register in my brain. I still can’t really perceive my current size. It’s a true blind spot. So I think there’s a psychological component.2
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Psychological component for sure. Especially for the move from overweight to obese. At least for myself. And I was 100% believing that to NOT be the case. No emotional eating here. Whatsoever. Except when agitated whether anxious/worried, or more often pissed off! as it turns out after some serious self observation!
But after 100lb loss don't be surprised if it takes brain a good year to catch up with your current size. I know that it was at least that long before I stopped checking if my second leg would fit in my pants....1
