Bulking for beginners
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I am going to go ahead and put some information here that I see asked a lot about bulking.
I would also highly recommend that everyone read the below link:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10049766/bulking-a-complete-guide-for-beginners/p1 < it used to be a sticky but I don't know what happened to it.
Clean bulk VS dirty bulk. Please note that a clean bulk has absolutely nothing to do with eating clean. Clean bulk means that you want to minimize fat gains, and are shooting for a 250 calorie surplus, or just about a .5 pound per week gain. Dirty bulk refers to those that want to pack on a lot of weight fast, and do not care so much about fat gain. Typically, this would be about a 500 calorie surplus, and looking for a one to two pound gain per week.
Once the rate of gain has been determined do the following:
1. If you are using TDEE method then just increase your calories by 250, 500, etc, over maintenance and eat to that number. If you are using MFP method then set MFP to gain x amount of weight per week.
2. Take starting measurements of waist, arms, chest, shoulders, and thighs. Also, plan on taking measurements about every two to three weeks to track progress.
3. Marcros should be .6 to .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight; .45 grams of fat per pound of body weight; fill in rest with carbs.
4. Make sure that you meet micronutient needs and eat nutrient dense foods like vegetables, rice, fish, chicken, etc. However, there is nothing wrong with filling in your calories with calorie dense foods like ice cream, cookies, bagels, chips, etc. I mean if you are bulking then you should eat the foods you enjoy, right? Please note that I am NOT saying eat 100% oreos, twinkies, ice cream, and pizza.
5. If you are new to lifting then you should identify a structured lifting program like all pro beginner, strong lifts, new rules of lifting, starting strength, etc, and run said program. If you are not new to lifting then you can run whatever program you have been running, just make sure that it has progressive over load built into it.
6. I would recommend using a food scale and accurately tracking your intake through faithful logging; however, this may not be necessary for all.
7. Note, that just because you increase your calories by 250 that this does not mean that you will immediately start gaining a half pound per week, you may have to keep bumping up calories until you start gaining. Also, as you gain weight you are going to need to bump up your intake, as your TDEE is going to be higher at 175 pounds, then it was at 170 pounds.
8. Fat gain is inevitable (just like judgement day LOL). You need to accept that if you are going to bulk then you are going to gain fat. For most the ratio is about 1:1, so for every ten pounds that you gain then you will gain five pounds of fat and five pounds of muscle. The fat gain ratio is a little higher for females than males, but I don't have an exact number on that..I would assume 1.25:.75 fat gain to muscle for females, but that may be wrong.
This post assumes that you have already determined that your body fat is low enough to bulk. For males it is recommend to bulk at sub 15% body fat; for females that range is about 18-20%. < These are just ranges and everyone is going to be a little different.
I am putting this on here in regards to Mr.M27 who is banned from the forums, and tried to keep the gaining forum "broscience" and "pseudoscience" free….he also taught me a lot about what I know about bulking/cutting/lifting, etc….
Good post NJD. But I would like your opinion, and others, on the bold part. After read the Lean Muscle Diet (Alan Aragon's book), it is was suggested that if you are new to lifting that trying to bulk would not necessarily be very effective as your muscles will essentially not be "primed" for growth but will be "primed" for efficiency. Would you generally recommend for a person to establish a baseline, both with eating (so you know your true maintenance and you rebaseline RMR/BMR post cut/deficit) and lifting (to address the efficiencies gained in the first few months) prior to doing a bulk?
And if you prefer, I can start an entire thread on this if preferred.
yea, now that I think of it, that part probably does not make sense, as those that are new to lifting are more than likely going to want to lose fat and maintain muscle mass.
I think when I wrote that I was seeing a lot of people post on the gaining forum that are either "skinny fat" or recovering from an ED, and I was thinking of those people as the "new to lifting" types that might bulk. But everyone else would probably qualify as an "intermediate lifter"…
Yes, I agree that one should establish a baseline for lifting and eating…..
how did you like aragon's book?
I thought it was very interesting and is definitely solid. If someone is pretty new to this world, it would probably be a great resource to check out. After reading it, it did make make question if one can gain mass while losing fat as Alan suggest you can (outside of a few noob gains). While I agree that you can under certain circumstances (as demonstrated in recomps), I still don't think losing 20 lbs of fat and gain 6 lbs of muscle would be easy (it was an example).
Having said that, he provides a variety of methods of reaching your goals and his programs seem very solid. Because I really enjoyed this book, i started reading the NROL series (started with women, so I can set up a modified program for my wife, post having our child) and am not almost done NROL4L (directed at older people).
I will note, Alan typically recommends a surplus of 500. It is his belief, or at least according to the book, that 250 calories MAY be too low and it is almost like spinning your wheels. But based on experiences here, it seems as a viable solution for some. And honestly, I don't have the knowledge or experience in bulking to side with one position.
I will say, I am enjoying spending more time in the bulking section. I find it more applicable to support my cut.
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In the article from the other thread, it was suggested that those new to lifting should lift for a few months before starting a bulk. I thought this seemed like longer than it should be for those who are just trying to bulk and are not trying to lose fat as well. What are your thoughts on that?I am going to go ahead and put some information here that I see asked a lot about bulking.
I would also highly recommend that everyone read the below link:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10049766/bulking-a-complete-guide-for-beginners/p1 < it used to be a sticky but I don't know what happened to it.
Clean bulk VS dirty bulk. Please note that a clean bulk has absolutely nothing to do with eating clean. Clean bulk means that you want to minimize fat gains, and are shooting for a 250 calorie surplus, or just about a .5 pound per week gain. Dirty bulk refers to those that want to pack on a lot of weight fast, and do not care so much about fat gain. Typically, this would be about a 500 calorie surplus, and looking for a one to two pound gain per week.
Once the rate of gain has been determined do the following:
1. If you are using TDEE method then just increase your calories by 250, 500, etc, over maintenance and eat to that number. If you are using MFP method then set MFP to gain x amount of weight per week.
2. Take starting measurements of waist, arms, chest, shoulders, and thighs. Also, plan on taking measurements about every two to three weeks to track progress.
3. Marcros should be .6 to .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight; .45 grams of fat per pound of body weight; fill in rest with carbs.
4. Make sure that you meet micronutient needs and eat nutrient dense foods like vegetables, rice, fish, chicken, etc. However, there is nothing wrong with filling in your calories with calorie dense foods like ice cream, cookies, bagels, chips, etc. I mean if you are bulking then you should eat the foods you enjoy, right? Please note that I am NOT saying eat 100% oreos, twinkies, ice cream, and pizza.
5. If you are new to lifting then you should identify a structured lifting program like all pro beginner, strong lifts, new rules of lifting, starting strength, etc, and run said program. If you are not new to lifting then you can run whatever program you have been running, just make sure that it has progressive over load built into it.
6. I would recommend using a food scale and accurately tracking your intake through faithful logging; however, this may not be necessary for all.
7. Note, that just because you increase your calories by 250 that this does not mean that you will immediately start gaining a half pound per week, you may have to keep bumping up calories until you start gaining. Also, as you gain weight you are going to need to bump up your intake, as your TDEE is going to be higher at 175 pounds, then it was at 170 pounds.
8. Fat gain is inevitable (just like judgement day LOL). You need to accept that if you are going to bulk then you are going to gain fat. For most the ratio is about 1:1, so for every ten pounds that you gain then you will gain five pounds of fat and five pounds of muscle. The fat gain ratio is a little higher for females than males, but I don't have an exact number on that..I would assume 1.25:.75 fat gain to muscle for females, but that may be wrong.
This post assumes that you have already determined that your body fat is low enough to bulk. For males it is recommend to bulk at sub 15% body fat; for females that range is about 18-20%. < These are just ranges and everyone is going to be a little different.
I am putting this on here in regards to Mr.M27 who is banned from the forums, and tried to keep the gaining forum "broscience" and "pseudoscience" free….he also taught me a lot about what I know about bulking/cutting/lifting, etc….
Good post NJD. But I would like your opinion, and others, on the bold part. After read the Lean Muscle Diet (Alan Aragon's book), it is was suggested that if you are new to lifting that trying to bulk would not necessarily be very effective as your muscles will essentially not be "primed" for growth but will be "primed" for efficiency. Would you generally recommend for a person to establish a baseline, both with eating (so you know your true maintenance and you rebaseline RMR/BMR post cut/deficit) and lifting (to address the efficiencies gained in the first few months) prior to doing a bulk?
And if you prefer, I can start an entire thread on this if preferred.
yea, now that I think of it, that part probably does not make sense, as those that are new to lifting are more than likely going to want to lose fat and maintain muscle mass.
I think when I wrote that I was seeing a lot of people post on the gaining forum that are either "skinny fat" or recovering from an ED, and I was thinking of those people as the "new to lifting" types that might bulk. But everyone else would probably qualify as an "intermediate lifter"…
Yes, I agree that one should establish a baseline for lifting and eating…..
how did you like aragon's book?2 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
In the article from the other thread, it was suggested that those new to lifting should lift for a few months before starting a bulk. I thought this seemed like longer than it should be for those who are just trying to bulk and are not trying to lose fat as well. What are your thoughts on that?I am going to go ahead and put some information here that I see asked a lot about bulking.
I would also highly recommend that everyone read the below link:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10049766/bulking-a-complete-guide-for-beginners/p1 < it used to be a sticky but I don't know what happened to it.
Clean bulk VS dirty bulk. Please note that a clean bulk has absolutely nothing to do with eating clean. Clean bulk means that you want to minimize fat gains, and are shooting for a 250 calorie surplus, or just about a .5 pound per week gain. Dirty bulk refers to those that want to pack on a lot of weight fast, and do not care so much about fat gain. Typically, this would be about a 500 calorie surplus, and looking for a one to two pound gain per week.
Once the rate of gain has been determined do the following:
1. If you are using TDEE method then just increase your calories by 250, 500, etc, over maintenance and eat to that number. If you are using MFP method then set MFP to gain x amount of weight per week.
2. Take starting measurements of waist, arms, chest, shoulders, and thighs. Also, plan on taking measurements about every two to three weeks to track progress.
3. Marcros should be .6 to .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight; .45 grams of fat per pound of body weight; fill in rest with carbs.
4. Make sure that you meet micronutient needs and eat nutrient dense foods like vegetables, rice, fish, chicken, etc. However, there is nothing wrong with filling in your calories with calorie dense foods like ice cream, cookies, bagels, chips, etc. I mean if you are bulking then you should eat the foods you enjoy, right? Please note that I am NOT saying eat 100% oreos, twinkies, ice cream, and pizza.
5. If you are new to lifting then you should identify a structured lifting program like all pro beginner, strong lifts, new rules of lifting, starting strength, etc, and run said program. If you are not new to lifting then you can run whatever program you have been running, just make sure that it has progressive over load built into it.
6. I would recommend using a food scale and accurately tracking your intake through faithful logging; however, this may not be necessary for all.
7. Note, that just because you increase your calories by 250 that this does not mean that you will immediately start gaining a half pound per week, you may have to keep bumping up calories until you start gaining. Also, as you gain weight you are going to need to bump up your intake, as your TDEE is going to be higher at 175 pounds, then it was at 170 pounds.
8. Fat gain is inevitable (just like judgement day LOL). You need to accept that if you are going to bulk then you are going to gain fat. For most the ratio is about 1:1, so for every ten pounds that you gain then you will gain five pounds of fat and five pounds of muscle. The fat gain ratio is a little higher for females than males, but I don't have an exact number on that..I would assume 1.25:.75 fat gain to muscle for females, but that may be wrong.
This post assumes that you have already determined that your body fat is low enough to bulk. For males it is recommend to bulk at sub 15% body fat; for females that range is about 18-20%. < These are just ranges and everyone is going to be a little different.
I am putting this on here in regards to Mr.M27 who is banned from the forums, and tried to keep the gaining forum "broscience" and "pseudoscience" free….he also taught me a lot about what I know about bulking/cutting/lifting, etc….
Good post NJD. But I would like your opinion, and others, on the bold part. After read the Lean Muscle Diet (Alan Aragon's book), it is was suggested that if you are new to lifting that trying to bulk would not necessarily be very effective as your muscles will essentially not be "primed" for growth but will be "primed" for efficiency. Would you generally recommend for a person to establish a baseline, both with eating (so you know your true maintenance and you rebaseline RMR/BMR post cut/deficit) and lifting (to address the efficiencies gained in the first few months) prior to doing a bulk?
And if you prefer, I can start an entire thread on this if preferred.
yea, now that I think of it, that part probably does not make sense, as those that are new to lifting are more than likely going to want to lose fat and maintain muscle mass.
I think when I wrote that I was seeing a lot of people post on the gaining forum that are either "skinny fat" or recovering from an ED, and I was thinking of those people as the "new to lifting" types that might bulk. But everyone else would probably qualify as an "intermediate lifter"…
Yes, I agree that one should establish a baseline for lifting and eating…..
how did you like aragon's book?
Depending on how new you are to lifting will determine when you should bulk. Someone who is brand new has a lot of potential to increase muscle efficiency prior to getting big (at least this is how Alan Aragon put it). And for that new person, it could be months before they start to plateau out and no realize gains. Where as an intermediate lifter can hit some plateaus within a month or two.
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Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.ForecasterJason wrote: »
In the article from the other thread, it was suggested that those new to lifting should lift for a few months before starting a bulk. I thought this seemed like longer than it should be for those who are just trying to bulk and are not trying to lose fat as well. What are your thoughts on that?I am going to go ahead and put some information here that I see asked a lot about bulking.
I would also highly recommend that everyone read the below link:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10049766/bulking-a-complete-guide-for-beginners/p1 < it used to be a sticky but I don't know what happened to it.
Clean bulk VS dirty bulk. Please note that a clean bulk has absolutely nothing to do with eating clean. Clean bulk means that you want to minimize fat gains, and are shooting for a 250 calorie surplus, or just about a .5 pound per week gain. Dirty bulk refers to those that want to pack on a lot of weight fast, and do not care so much about fat gain. Typically, this would be about a 500 calorie surplus, and looking for a one to two pound gain per week.
Once the rate of gain has been determined do the following:
1. If you are using TDEE method then just increase your calories by 250, 500, etc, over maintenance and eat to that number. If you are using MFP method then set MFP to gain x amount of weight per week.
2. Take starting measurements of waist, arms, chest, shoulders, and thighs. Also, plan on taking measurements about every two to three weeks to track progress.
3. Marcros should be .6 to .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight; .45 grams of fat per pound of body weight; fill in rest with carbs.
4. Make sure that you meet micronutient needs and eat nutrient dense foods like vegetables, rice, fish, chicken, etc. However, there is nothing wrong with filling in your calories with calorie dense foods like ice cream, cookies, bagels, chips, etc. I mean if you are bulking then you should eat the foods you enjoy, right? Please note that I am NOT saying eat 100% oreos, twinkies, ice cream, and pizza.
5. If you are new to lifting then you should identify a structured lifting program like all pro beginner, strong lifts, new rules of lifting, starting strength, etc, and run said program. If you are not new to lifting then you can run whatever program you have been running, just make sure that it has progressive over load built into it.
6. I would recommend using a food scale and accurately tracking your intake through faithful logging; however, this may not be necessary for all.
7. Note, that just because you increase your calories by 250 that this does not mean that you will immediately start gaining a half pound per week, you may have to keep bumping up calories until you start gaining. Also, as you gain weight you are going to need to bump up your intake, as your TDEE is going to be higher at 175 pounds, then it was at 170 pounds.
8. Fat gain is inevitable (just like judgement day LOL). You need to accept that if you are going to bulk then you are going to gain fat. For most the ratio is about 1:1, so for every ten pounds that you gain then you will gain five pounds of fat and five pounds of muscle. The fat gain ratio is a little higher for females than males, but I don't have an exact number on that..I would assume 1.25:.75 fat gain to muscle for females, but that may be wrong.
This post assumes that you have already determined that your body fat is low enough to bulk. For males it is recommend to bulk at sub 15% body fat; for females that range is about 18-20%. < These are just ranges and everyone is going to be a little different.
I am putting this on here in regards to Mr.M27 who is banned from the forums, and tried to keep the gaining forum "broscience" and "pseudoscience" free….he also taught me a lot about what I know about bulking/cutting/lifting, etc….
Good post NJD. But I would like your opinion, and others, on the bold part. After read the Lean Muscle Diet (Alan Aragon's book), it is was suggested that if you are new to lifting that trying to bulk would not necessarily be very effective as your muscles will essentially not be "primed" for growth but will be "primed" for efficiency. Would you generally recommend for a person to establish a baseline, both with eating (so you know your true maintenance and you rebaseline RMR/BMR post cut/deficit) and lifting (to address the efficiencies gained in the first few months) prior to doing a bulk?
And if you prefer, I can start an entire thread on this if preferred.
yea, now that I think of it, that part probably does not make sense, as those that are new to lifting are more than likely going to want to lose fat and maintain muscle mass.
I think when I wrote that I was seeing a lot of people post on the gaining forum that are either "skinny fat" or recovering from an ED, and I was thinking of those people as the "new to lifting" types that might bulk. But everyone else would probably qualify as an "intermediate lifter"…
Yes, I agree that one should establish a baseline for lifting and eating…..
how did you like aragon's book?
Depending on how new you are to lifting will determine when you should bulk. Someone who is brand new has a lot of potential to increase muscle efficiency prior to getting big (at least this is how Alan Aragon put it). And for that new person, it could be months before they start to plateau out and no realize gains. Where as an intermediate lifter can hit some plateaus within a month or two.
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bumping, because I can ...0
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I want to get your thoughts on strength vs hypertrophic program during bulks. Will one be more beneficial than the next for muscle growth?1
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Awesome thread
Nominating for a sticky0 -
I want to get your thoughts on strength vs hypertrophic program during bulks. Will one be more beneficial than the next for muscle growth?
From personal experience, i've done best with both. Using a 6 day split I train Push/Pull/Legs the 1st 3 days for strength, taking day 4 off and train Push/Pull/Legs the last 3 days for hypertrophy. If that's too much, you can rotate weeks to make it a 3 day split, or only train legs once (making it a 5 day split) and rotate between strength and hypertrophy leg sessions each week.0 -
I don't get it. When you talk about bulking it seems like the goal is the number on the scales. Why not make the goal to gain muscle? Takes longer than following the scales but at least it's muscle and you will be ripped rather than bulk until you get pudgy and then shred weight by eating basically nothing and training your *kitten* of. Hello head spins and vomiting.2
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I don't get it. When you talk about bulking it seems like the goal is the number on the scales. Why not make the goal to gain muscle? Takes longer than following the scales but at least it's muscle and you will be ripped rather than bulk until you get pudgy and then shred weight by eating basically nothing and training your *kitten* of. Hello head spins and vomiting.
you can't be serious…
I specifically said follow a structured progressive lifting program, hit micros/maros, and shoot for .5 pound gain …or do you not understand that?2 -
I don't get it. When you talk about bulking it seems like the goal is the number on the scales. Why not make the goal to gain muscle? Takes longer than following the scales but at least it's muscle and you will be ripped rather than bulk until you get pudgy and then shred weight by eating basically nothing and training your *kitten* of. Hello head spins and vomiting.
Are you refering to recomp?
That is really really slow. Plus it only allows you to gain a limited amount of muscle.. and some people would like to gain some more muscle than that.
Any other way to gain muscle is by eating a calorie surplus. And if you eat a surplus, you will gain weight, including fat. Just no way to avoid it.1 -
Yeah I understand that. What I don't get is the 500calorie surplus. Last I heard eating too much of anything makes you fat.0
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Yeah I understand that. What I don't get is the 500calorie surplus. Last I heard eating too much of anything makes you fat.
Eating anything above maintenance will make you gain fat.
But I can understand that you find a 500 calorie surplus high. It is called a dirty bulk for a reason.0 -
= They are realzzzzz......... oyyyy 0 -
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Just one such study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714538
I think the jury is still out though based on other studies that have cropped up.
This is an article but has links to more of the studies. http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2015/08/training-to-failure-and-modifying-rest.html?m=1
I would also highlight these sentences from the end (hence, my statement above about the jury still being out).
"Overall, there is still little doubt that the results of the two studies I discussed today support the notion that "going heavy" is still the way to activate a maximal number of muscle fibers. Whether this does also mean that it is necessarily the best way to make those fibers grow and or increase their glucose uptake, however, is still not fully proven. "
One of the reasons I like Wendler's 531 with BBB is I get a heavy day and a light day (5x10). Figure one of them will help me grow/get stronger. (disclosure, I'm actually cutting right now and won't switch back over to a bulk until Oct).1 -
Awesome!0
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