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Nutritional Ketosis and alzheimer's/cancer
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psuLemon
Posts: 38,389 MFP Moderator
in Debate Club
Wanted to start a discussion regarding the use of nutritional ketosis when it comes to alzheimer's and cancer.
Now, let me state that the below video from Biolayne is about Ketosis in general but he discusses some benfits of keto when it comes to the treatment (not prevention of) alzheimer's and cancer (knowing not all cancers are alike). Wanted to see if anyone else had thoughts based on previous reseach.
https://youtu.be/bHXP04ipDx8
Now, let me state that the below video from Biolayne is about Ketosis in general but he discusses some benfits of keto when it comes to the treatment (not prevention of) alzheimer's and cancer (knowing not all cancers are alike). Wanted to see if anyone else had thoughts based on previous reseach.
https://youtu.be/bHXP04ipDx84
Replies
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Cool!1
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There's a lot of stuff about ketogenic diet and I don't get what started it all. I mean there's keto and cancer/alzheimers like you mentioned, keto and weight loss, keto and seizures, etc. The science behind it is debatable, from what I've gathered.1
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Thanks for posting this. I'll have a look.1
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I have also heard of ketogenic diets reversing diabetes. I know someone who was successful. Interesting topic.1
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I have also heard of ketogenic diets reversing diabetes. I know someone who was successful. Interesting topic.
Type 1 or type 2? Because I'd like to see some proof on type 1 reversal. Type 2 can be effectively reversed through weight loss.I haven't done research. But I work with Alzheimers patients, most in the mid to advanced stages of the disease. And, with few exceptions, they don't eat food. With an hour of coaxing, you might be able to get one to down some ice cream, pudding, candy or a milkshake. But that's about it. I'm NOT saying sugary food causes Alzheimers. But that's definitely the food they favor, if they eat at all.
Agreed. Hyper-palatable and easy to consume food is often the only thing you can get into a person with Alzheimers or dementia.3 -
I eat a low carb, often ketogenic diet, so I'd prefer not to give any thoughts (it being woo on MFP and all) but this is what I've read this year. At the end of the second link there's a reference guide with links to 28 studies you might be interested in. Dominic D'Agostino's twitter feed will take you further down the keto rabbit hole as well.
Ketogenic diet's effect being tested on ovarian cancer patients after animal models proved successful.
"During the 12-week trial, 66 participants will be randomized into one of two diets—the ketogenic diet and a diet recommended by the American Cancer Society that emphasizes a need for whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and meats and oils low in saturated fat." Source
Modified Atkins diet in advanced malignancies - final results of a safety and feasibility trial within the Veterans Affairs Pittsburgh Healthcare System
Modified Atkins diets are safe and feasible in advanced cancer. Quality of life was preserved. Patients who lost at least 10 % of their body weight responded the best. Steroid intake affected optimal ketone and glucose levels. Despite this, survival improved in some melanoma and lung cancer patients. Further studies are recommended. Source
NY Times Article: An Old Idea, Revived: Starve Cancer to Death
In the early 20th century, the German biochemist Otto Warburg believed that tumors could be treated by disrupting their source of energy. His idea was dismissed for decades — until now. Link3 -
I have also heard of ketogenic diets reversing diabetes. I know someone who was successful. Interesting topic.
Ketogenetic is one of the options to reverse the symptoms of diabetes II as it regulates blood sugar. Many will not have to get to those levels of carb restriction (depends how progressive you are), but others will. Exercise and weight loss will also support that.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat a low carb, often ketogenic diet, so I'd prefer not to give any thoughts (it being woo on MFP and all) but this is what I've read this year. At the end of the second link there's a reference guide with links to 28 studies you might be interested in. Dominic D'Agostino's twitter feed will take you further down the keto rabbit hole as well.
Ketogenic diet's effect being tested on ovarian cancer patients after animal models proved successful.
"During the 12-week trial, 66 participants will be randomized into one of two diets—the ketogenic diet and a diet recommended by the American Cancer Society that emphasizes a need for whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and meats and oils low in saturated fat." Source
Modified Atkins diet in advanced malignancies - final results of a safety and feasibility trial within the Veterans Affairs Pittsburgh Healthcare System
Modified Atkins diets are safe and feasible in advanced cancer. Quality of life was preserved. Patients who lost at least 10 % of their body weight responded the best. Steroid intake affected optimal ketone and glucose levels. Despite this, survival improved in some melanoma and lung cancer patients. Further studies are recommended. Source
NY Times Article: An Old Idea, Revived: Starve Cancer to Death
In the early 20th century, the German biochemist Otto Warburg believed that tumors could be treated by disrupting their source of energy. His idea was dismissed for decades — until now. Link
Thank you for those links. I will make sure I read the studies. These topics are becoming more of an interest to me considering cancer runs in my family and Alzheimer's runs in my wife's.
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I will look at it.
Just went to a really interesting talk on Alzheimers and the current research from someone involved cutting edge work on in it at U of Chicago. What he said, among other things, was that the best advice for avoidance now is to exercise. There's also lots of research being done on different dietary factors, and they do believe that there's a connection with the gut biome (of course), but that they really don't know yet what dietary factors will have a positive effect. He did not promote low carb or ketosis.3 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat a low carb, often ketogenic diet, so I'd prefer not to give any thoughts (it being woo on MFP and all) but this is what I've read this year. At the end of the second link there's a reference guide with links to 28 studies you might be interested in. Dominic D'Agostino's twitter feed will take you further down the keto rabbit hole as well.
Ketogenic diet's effect being tested on ovarian cancer patients after animal models proved successful.
"During the 12-week trial, 66 participants will be randomized into one of two diets—the ketogenic diet and a diet recommended by the American Cancer Society that emphasizes a need for whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and meats and oils low in saturated fat." Source
Modified Atkins diet in advanced malignancies - final results of a safety and feasibility trial within the Veterans Affairs Pittsburgh Healthcare System
Modified Atkins diets are safe and feasible in advanced cancer. Quality of life was preserved. Patients who lost at least 10 % of their body weight responded the best. Steroid intake affected optimal ketone and glucose levels. Despite this, survival improved in some melanoma and lung cancer patients. Further studies are recommended. Source
NY Times Article: An Old Idea, Revived: Starve Cancer to Death
In the early 20th century, the German biochemist Otto Warburg believed that tumors could be treated by disrupting their source of energy. His idea was dismissed for decades — until now. Link
The problem with thinking that a particular diet is going to treat cancer is that it doesn't work in practice - and this is mentioned in that last article you linked. If you limit one source of nutrients, any cells that rely mainly on that source will die off or slow their growth - but because cancers have unstable genomes, and most tumors are heterogenous (not made of a single type of cell or subtype of cancer) it is practically guaranteed that some of the cells will have acquired mutations that let them thrive on the alternative nutrient source and they continue to grow.
This is the same reason that there is such a problem with many chemotherapies and relapses. Many chemotherapies work really well against against particular subtypes of cancer. But because cancer is rarely just a single subtype, the rest just keep coming. Even better, the rest will often have acquired mutations making them resistant not only to the particular chemotherapy treatment used, but also to others that use similar mechanisms of action.4 -
Most who stick with the ketogenic diet, at least in people I know or on the MFP boards, stick with it because of the health benefits - now and in the future. There are some benefits. They aren't well studied yet but interest is growing. TBH, I don't start posts like this because the research is often shouted down as woo. Mouse studies. Small test groups. Not very well planned studies.... But they seem to have a similar theme: a ketogenic diet can help with some health problems, especially those that have to do with insulin resistance or mitochondrial problems.
Some alzheimer's appears to be caused by insulin resistance in the brain. The video linked in the OP discusses that. If one has IR in the brain, they can't get enough glucose (fuel) to the brain cells and those cells don't function well or are damaged. When one eats a carb heavy diet, the body is used to using glucose in the brain but it doesn't just need glucose. As someone lives on the ketogenic diet, the body becomes fat adapted and the brain's use of liver produced glucose falls. Ketones are used.
When I started on the ketogenic diet, I was shocked by the cognitive improvements that I experienced about 1-2 months into the diet. It was noticeable. My husband noticed. It felt like the difference between 4 hours of sleep and 8 hours. I had more energy but I could think better. I could once again remember where my husband left his keys the day before when he went searching, and easily continue with a mom's multitasking. Clarity was greater.
I do have insulin resistance. I think it came from years of steroid use from autoimmune issues since it developed when I was a normal BMI. Keeping LCHF is my only control of my BG for my prediabetes. The fact that my n=1 shows that I think better on ketones was enough of a scare to keep me LCHF the vast majority of the time.
If anyone makes it to age 80, your chances of getting alzheimer's is 50/50, mine is probably higher since I already have IR, makes using ketones more important. I'm going for prevention of Alzheimer's. If I can reduce my risk I will.
Anyways, Mary Newport is a strong source for using ketones to treat Alzheimers. A ketogenic diet is not always needed but appears to help most. Ketones are the main help. Taking MCT or coconut oil will raise ketones in anyone - even in a moderately high carb diet. MCT's make ketones in everyone. It's an easy way to get ketones into someone, as opposed to keto esthers, which I've heard tastes a lot like rocket fuel. Coconut oil works for alzheimer's patients who want their sugars too. Caregivers can cook with it. Bake with it. Add it to foods instead of butter. Fat bombs with stevia would work well: coconut oil, cocoa, vanilla, stevia, and some nut butter. If you freeze it you have candy. Give then a few a day and cut back on other sweets. Makes sense to me.
Cancer I'm not as sure on. Some cancers appear to benefit hugely, especially brain cancer. I think it's Seyfried who has done a lot of work in this (Warburg effect). TBH, I'd be looking into metformin too to reduce my rate of gluconeogenesis, and add that glass of red wine every evening to my menu to further keep my liver otherwise occuppied. Other cancers (more rare) appear to become more aggressive when their food source is reduced. You'd want to know your cancer's behaviour before relying on a ketogenic diet too much.
I do know that a ketogenic diet helps with chemo. It reduces the horrible side effects and seems to pin point the therapy at the cancer more than it would be otherwise. If I was doing chemo for a cancer, I would look into ketosis or fasting to help the treatment along.
Anyways, interesting video. He's coming from a body building perspective (typically higher protein) which is not relevant to my life, but he seems to agree with much of what I have read about the health benefits of ketosis.
For those with perfect mitochondria and glucose and insulin sensitivity, carry on. If you have a family history of IR problems (NAFLD, T2D, Alzheimer's, PCOS), CAD or cancer, maybe keep an open mind on the topic.15 -
Most who stick with the ketogenic diet, at least in people I know or on the MFP boards, stick with it because of the health benefits - now and in the future. There are some benefits. They aren't well studied yet but interest is growing. TBH, I don't start posts like this because the research is often shouted down as woo. Mouse studies. Small test groups. Not very well planned studies.... But they seem to have a similar theme: a ketogenic diet can help with some health problems, especially those that have to do with insulin resistance or mitochondrial problems.
Some alzheimer's appears to be caused by insulin resistance in the brain. The video linked in the OP discusses that. If one has IR in the brain, they can't get enough glucose (fuel) to the brain cells and those cells don't function well or are damaged. When one eats a carb heavy diet, the body is used to using glucose in the brain but it doesn't just need glucose. As someone lives on the ketogenic diet, the body becomes fat adapted and the brain's use of liver produced glucose falls. Ketones are used.
When I started on the ketogenic diet, I was shocked by the cognitive improvements that I experienced about 1-2 months into the diet. It was noticeable. My husband noticed. It felt like the difference between 4 hours of sleep and 8 hours. I had more energy but I could think better. I could once again remember where my husband left his keys the day before when he went searching, and easily continue with a mom's multitasking. Clarity was greater.
I do have insulin resistance. I think it came from years of steroid use from autoimmune issues since it developed when I was a normal BMI. Keeping LCHF is my only control of my BG for my prediabetes. The fact that my n=1 shows that I think better on ketones was enough of a scare to keep me LCHF the vast majority of the time.
If anyone makes it to age 80, your chances of getting alzheimer's is 50/50, mine is probably higher since I already have IR, makes using ketones more important. I'm going for prevention of Alzheimer's. If I can reduce my risk I will.
Anyways, Mary Newport is a strong source for using ketones to treat Alzheimers. A ketogenic diet is not always needed but appears to help most. Ketones are the main help. Taking MCT or coconut oil will raise ketones in anyone - even in a moderately high carb diet. MCT's make ketones in everyone. It's an easy way to get ketones into someone, as opposed to keto esthers, which I've heard tastes a lot like rocket fuel. Coconut oil works for alzheimer's patients who want their sugars too. Caregivers can cook with it. Bake with it. Add it to foods instead of butter. Fat bombs with stevia would work well: coconut oil, cocoa, vanilla, stevia, and some nut butter. If you freeze it you have candy. Give then a few a day and cut back on other sweets. Makes sense to me.
Cancer I'm not as sure on. Some cancers appear to benefit hugely, especially brain cancer. I think it's Seyfried who has done a lot of work in this (Warburg effect). TBH, I'd be looking into metformin too to reduce my rate of gluconeogenesis, and add that glass of red wine every evening to my menu to further keep my liver otherwise occuppied. Other cancers (more rare) appear to become more aggressive when their food source is reduced. You'd want to know your cancer's behaviour before relying on a ketogenic diet too much.
I do know that a ketogenic diet helps with chemo. It reduces the horrible side effects and seems to pin point the therapy at the cancer more than it would be otherwise. If I was doing chemo for a cancer, I would look into ketosis or fasting to help the treatment along.
Anyways, interesting video. He's coming from a body building perspective (typically higher protein) which is not relevant to my life, but he seems to agree with much of what I have read about the health benefits of ketosis.
For those with perfect mitochondria and glucose and insulin sensitivity, carry on. If you have a family history of IR problems (NAFLD, T2D, Alzheimer's, PCOS), CAD or cancer, maybe keep an open mind on the topic.
One of the reasons why I found the video so interesting is part of this perceptions. Knowing how well respected he is in the body building community, and looking at some of the passed discussions, I found it interesting; at least how it would related to Alzheimer's and some types of cancers. He did note however many of the other benefits commonly touted are also highly correlated towards weight loss.0 -
Yes. Weight loss alone will help some people. No doubt weight loss will help some people with alzheimer's and maybe cancer prevention too. The problem is being sure which group you are in. You can't really know until you find out that getting to a healthy weight wasn't enough because you still have the problem. I've tried to fix health issues after the fact but as I get older, I'm thinking further steps towards prevention is a better way to go.0
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Yes. Weight loss alone will help some people. No doubt weight loss will help some people with alzheimer's and maybe cancer prevention too. The problem is being sure which group you are in. You can't really know until you find out that getting to a healthy weight wasn't enough because you still have the problem. I've tried to fix health issues after the fact but as I get older, I'm thinking further steps towards prevention is a better way to go.
What I found very interesting in the atkins link that @AlabasterVerve provided suggested that those who followed MAD and lost 10% of their body fat saw the greatest results.
And I agree with prevention. It's one of the reasons I started so young. Now I am just working on body composition and continuing to push for a variety of whole foods.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat a low carb, often ketogenic diet, so I'd prefer not to give any thoughts (it being woo on MFP and all) but this is what I've read this year. At the end of the second link there's a reference guide with links to 28 studies you might be interested in. Dominic D'Agostino's twitter feed will take you further down the keto rabbit hole as well.
Ketogenic diet's effect being tested on ovarian cancer patients after animal models proved successful.
"During the 12-week trial, 66 participants will be randomized into one of two diets—the ketogenic diet and a diet recommended by the American Cancer Society that emphasizes a need for whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and meats and oils low in saturated fat." Source
Modified Atkins diet in advanced malignancies - final results of a safety and feasibility trial within the Veterans Affairs Pittsburgh Healthcare System
Modified Atkins diets are safe and feasible in advanced cancer. Quality of life was preserved. Patients who lost at least 10 % of their body weight responded the best. Steroid intake affected optimal ketone and glucose levels. Despite this, survival improved in some melanoma and lung cancer patients. Further studies are recommended. Source
NY Times Article: An Old Idea, Revived: Starve Cancer to Death
In the early 20th century, the German biochemist Otto Warburg believed that tumors could be treated by disrupting their source of energy. His idea was dismissed for decades — until now. Link
The problem with thinking that a particular diet is going to treat cancer is that it doesn't work in practice - and this is mentioned in that last article you linked. If you limit one source of nutrients, any cells that rely mainly on that source will die off or slow their growth - but because cancers have unstable genomes, and most tumors are heterogenous (not made of a single type of cell or subtype of cancer) it is practically guaranteed that some of the cells will have acquired mutations that let them thrive on the alternative nutrient source and they continue to grow.
This is the same reason that there is such a problem with many chemotherapies and relapses. Many chemotherapies work really well against against particular subtypes of cancer. But because cancer is rarely just a single subtype, the rest just keep coming. Even better, the rest will often have acquired mutations making them resistant not only to the particular chemotherapy treatment used, but also to others that use similar mechanisms of action.
I think if you look at some of the science, it would support that this diet, along with traditional diets can cause an improvement to the treatment. It's not suggesting that it would replace chemo but it can reduce the progression of the disease or minimize. I am still not convinced, or at least haven't seen science to suggest that keto will prevent Alzheimer's or types of cancers.0 -
The studies are all over the place. The most positive ones I see* say it may help with mobility, not cognition, and others help with clearing away amyloid (which might help keep the disease from progressing) but don't show actual improvements in the patient in terms of cognition (again). That said, it's something I'd be open to trying or to having a family member participate in a study of, if it came to that, of course, but given the state of the research I think it's far too premature to claim that it actually is a treatment that works. And given that other diets are asserted to work too and that if you pick one you aren't picking another, there's that. I hope it does work and, more to the point, I hope they find a way to prevent it -- and I think the argument that keto diets would do that is much more tenuous still, especially since other things are also thought to be beneficial and again you'd be giving them up.
*Worth noting these were not normal keto diets, but extreme -- around 1% carb.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »The studies are all over the place. The most positive ones I see* say it may help with mobility, not cognition, and others help with clearing away amyloid (which might help keep the disease from progressing) but don't show actual improvements in the patient in terms of cognition (again). That said, it's something I'd be open to trying or to having a family member participate in a study of, if it came to that, of course, but given the state of the research I think it's far too premature to claim that it actually is a treatment that works. And given that other diets are asserted to work too and that if you pick one you aren't picking another, there's that. I hope it does work and, more to the point, I hope they find a way to prevent it -- and I think the argument that keto diets would do that is much more tenuous still, especially since other things are also thought to be beneficial and again you'd be giving them up.
*Worth noting these were not normal keto diets, but extreme -- around 1% carb.
I find this to generally be false. Most prescribed ketogenic diets are not almost no-carb but rather at around 5-10%. And then there are the studies that use ketosis for just a couple of weeks and just go down to close to 50g or carbs (or more) - they end up not being very accurate in what they are testing for.
I do find that the ketogenic diet prescribed for epileptics is quite restrictive (very low carb, low protein and restricted calories to the point where growth is often slowed) but that isn't true for most cancer studies or autoimmune or even CAD trials that I've seen.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat a low carb, often ketogenic diet, so I'd prefer not to give any thoughts (it being woo on MFP and all) but this is what I've read this year. At the end of the second link there's a reference guide with links to 28 studies you might be interested in. Dominic D'Agostino's twitter feed will take you further down the keto rabbit hole as well.
Ketogenic diet's effect being tested on ovarian cancer patients after animal models proved successful.
"During the 12-week trial, 66 participants will be randomized into one of two diets—the ketogenic diet and a diet recommended by the American Cancer Society that emphasizes a need for whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and meats and oils low in saturated fat." Source
Modified Atkins diet in advanced malignancies - final results of a safety and feasibility trial within the Veterans Affairs Pittsburgh Healthcare System
Modified Atkins diets are safe and feasible in advanced cancer. Quality of life was preserved. Patients who lost at least 10 % of their body weight responded the best. Steroid intake affected optimal ketone and glucose levels. Despite this, survival improved in some melanoma and lung cancer patients. Further studies are recommended. Source
NY Times Article: An Old Idea, Revived: Starve Cancer to Death
In the early 20th century, the German biochemist Otto Warburg believed that tumors could be treated by disrupting their source of energy. His idea was dismissed for decades — until now. Link
The problem with thinking that a particular diet is going to treat cancer is that it doesn't work in practice - and this is mentioned in that last article you linked. If you limit one source of nutrients, any cells that rely mainly on that source will die off or slow their growth - but because cancers have unstable genomes, and most tumors are heterogenous (not made of a single type of cell or subtype of cancer) it is practically guaranteed that some of the cells will have acquired mutations that let them thrive on the alternative nutrient source and they continue to grow.
This is the same reason that there is such a problem with many chemotherapies and relapses. Many chemotherapies work really well against against particular subtypes of cancer. But because cancer is rarely just a single subtype, the rest just keep coming. Even better, the rest will often have acquired mutations making them resistant not only to the particular chemotherapy treatment used, but also to others that use similar mechanisms of action.
There aren't many cell types that rely just on glucose. Cancer seems unusual in it's appetite for glucose. Most cancers do not seem able to use other fuels. That's why PET scans work so well for detecting most cancers.... I wonder how much more obvious a cancerous PET scan result would be for someone who is fat adapted?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »The studies are all over the place. The most positive ones I see* say it may help with mobility, not cognition, and others help with clearing away amyloid (which might help keep the disease from progressing) but don't show actual improvements in the patient in terms of cognition (again). That said, it's something I'd be open to trying or to having a family member participate in a study of, if it came to that, of course, but given the state of the research I think it's far too premature to claim that it actually is a treatment that works. And given that other diets are asserted to work too and that if you pick one you aren't picking another, there's that. I hope it does work and, more to the point, I hope they find a way to prevent it -- and I think the argument that keto diets would do that is much more tenuous still, especially since other things are also thought to be beneficial and again you'd be giving them up.
*Worth noting these were not normal keto diets, but extreme -- around 1% carb.
I find this to generally be false. Most prescribed ketogenic diets are not almost no-carb but rather at around 5-10%.
I'm not talking about prescribed diets in general, but the ketogenic diets tested in Alzheimer studies. Of course I can't find the study in particular that I was looking at, but it had under 1% carbs. These are for the studies (and of course a lot of them are rodent studies too, so hard to focus on specific percentages based on that). Anyway, I think it was perfectly clear from my post that I was not talking about the diets prescribed for epilepsy, which is a known benefit (and apparently around 80% fat).And then there are the studies that use ketosis for just a couple of weeks and just go down to close to 50g or carbs (or more) - they end up not being very accurate in what they are testing for.
Depends what they are testing for. Many of them are quite compelling given the specific thing being examined.
For prevention, I think the evidence to date weighs more in favor of something like a Med diet, or just a generally healthful diet with lots of whole plant-based foods. It seems like high fat/not keto may even be negatively implicated. But the research is still in an early stage on a lot of this, so the main thing is not to misrepresent that and suggest that it's known but being hidden or some such. (It's funny since if you read the WFPB stuff, they claim that the very same diseases -- well, not epilepsy, I suppose -- are benefited from their basically opposite diet, and they have studies and reasons that make some sense too.)1
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