How vital are carbs when clean bulking?
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Timbur_Wolf
Posts: 116 Member
As stated I'm trying to put on lean muscle mass while limiting the fat gain (I understand some fat will be inevitable). I was curious if I'll still get good results if my diet is primarily protein? Or should I just stick with the macros the app laid out for me?
I'm not going over my surplus, but most my calories come from protein and fat.
I'm not going over my surplus, but most my calories come from protein and fat.
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Replies
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I'd stick with high protein, low fat with some carbs. Stick with chicken beef pork and you have to go into surplus to gain muscle. For carbs I'd do mashed potato's and maybe some pasta but only once a day. IMO2
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Thats interesting im not eating in surplus and gainung lean muscle1
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That is a lot of calories coming strictly from protein and fat. I think carbs are definitely important when bulking even for leaner gains. For leaner gains, stay closer to maintenance with only a 100-250 calorie surplus. That should limit the fat gain. Carbs provide the energy for your muscles to grow though so I wouldn't neglect them. In a bulk I will typically get about 60-65% of my calories from carbs and that is still getting 1 g/lb bw of protein.2
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Carbs are actually very important during a bulk as they help build muscle, prevent breakdown and give you energy for your workouts.. you definitely do not want to neglect them. As long as you are around 0.8-1g protein per lb lean body mass, any more than that will really not offer any added benefit for muscle building.6
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I think the majority of people will likely experience better gym performance with moderate to high carb intakes. And this likely matters a great deal over extended periods of time.4
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Carbs are actually very important during a bulk as they help build muscle, prevent breakdown and give you energy for your workouts.. you definitely do not want to neglect them. As long as you are around 0.8-1g protein per lb lean body mass, any more than that will really not offer any added benefit for muscle building.
thisI think the majority of people will likely experience better gym performance with moderate to high carb intakes. And this likely matters a great deal over extended periods of time.
and this ..
i will add that what matters during your clean bulk is size of surplus, training consistency, and macro/micro adherence.
Limiting carbs is not going to limit fat loss when in a surplus..
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While you can even do keto bulking (CKD/TKD), they are not going to be as effective as a designed bulk with carbs. Carbs will maximize MPS and prevent protein breakdown.2
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StongerBiggerFaster wrote: »That is a lot of calories coming strictly from protein and fat. I think carbs are definitely important when bulking even for leaner gains. For leaner gains, stay closer to maintenance with only a 100-250 calorie surplus. That should limit the fat gain. Carbs provide the energy for your muscles to grow though so I wouldn't neglect them. In a bulk I will typically get about 60-65% of my calories from carbs and that is still getting 1 g/lb bw of protein.
I thought it might be a little overboard on the fats and protein, I just kept reading different views on how to setup the macros for a lean bulk, but I'll start upping my carb intake, thanks for the info!1 -
Carbs are actually very important during a bulk as they help build muscle, prevent breakdown and give you energy for your workouts.. you definitely do not want to neglect them. As long as you are around 0.8-1g protein per lb lean body mass, any more than that will really not offer any added benefit for muscle building.
Yeah I've been going way above .8-1 but, now that I have a better understanding of the role carbs have in lean bulking, I'll start to up my intake. Just gets a little confusing when I see opinions from two different sides lol. I appreciate the information you've provided, thank you!1 -
While you can even do keto bulking (CKD/TKD), they are not going to be as effective as a designed bulk with carbs. Carbs will maximize MPS and prevent protein breakdown.
I definitely want to be efficient and effective with the lean bulk. After reading people's comments and doing some research, I have a better understanding, and see how important carbs are for bulking.1 -
Timbur_Wolf wrote: »While you can even do keto bulking (CKD/TKD), they are not going to be as effective as a designed bulk with carbs. Carbs will maximize MPS and prevent protein breakdown.
I definitely want to be efficient and effective with the lean bulk. After reading people's comments and doing some research, I have a better understanding, and see how important carbs are for bulking.
In general terms of macros, you can aim for:
.8-1g of pro
.35-.6g of fats
carbs rest.8 -
OP as others have stated carbs can make training energy level higher and therefore optimal.
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Carbs are actually very important during a bulk as they help build muscle, prevent breakdown and give you energy for your workouts.. you definitely do not want to neglect them. As long as you are around 0.8-1g protein per lb lean body mass, any more than that will really not offer any added benefit for muscle building.
This. More protein above the recommended dose, doesn't equate to building more muscle.2 -
Nothing to add here except you've been steered in the right direction. I generally follow 1g/lb protein, 2g/lb carbs, and the rest fat, based on body weight. It's a bit high on the protein, but I find it's a nice balance, easy to remember. It's true more protein isn't better when it comes to muscle gain, but more protein IS better when it comes to appetite control, that's where I find the extra protein comes in handy. I'd go way overboard and dirty bulk if I had more carbs.
I've never played around with carb cycling or nutrient timing (and I know the benefits are < than overall macros and total calories) but it might be something worth looking at. I've been watching a lot of Mike Israetel's youtubes lately and he seems to know what he's talking about. I just don't think I can achieve the nutrient timing thing while eating with the rest of the family, but if you've got the ability it might be worth it.0 -
Carbs are actually very important during a bulk as they help build muscle, prevent breakdown and give you energy for your workouts.. you definitely do not want to neglect them. As long as you are around 0.8-1g protein per lb lean body mass, any more than that will really not offer any added benefit for muscle building.
This. More protein above the recommended dose, doesn't equate to building more muscle.
The variance is age. The older we get and less testosterone we produce, the more protien and better quality at that we do need to achieve muscle synthesis efficiently.0 -
How are you assessing this? Gaining muscle means increasing mass. Increasing mass means increasing weight. That doesn't happen without a surplus.blackcomaro wrote: »Thats interesting im not eating in surplus and gainung lean muscle
Now RECOMP is possible, but that's a LONG LONG progressive regimen and results don't appear just after a couple of weeks or so.
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Ketogenesis refers to the creation of ketone in the liver that occurs when the body is desperate for energy due to low carbohydrate availability. The body has complex sensing mechanisms that respond to energy availability and body weight. For example, mTOR is a powerful signaling pathway that responds to changes in energy, nutrients, and growth factors. Nutrients and growth factors activate mTOR, which promotes muscle protein synthesis. Energy deprivation and ketosis suppresses the pathway. When the body is well fed and growing, mTOR is "turned on;" conversely, when energy (most strongly affected by glucose availability to the cell) is low, mTOR is "turned off." Bodybuilders are most interested in activating mTOR in muscle, as well as turning it off in fat tissue. Unfortunately, the natural signals are generally not tissue-specific, meaning that what increases muscle-building also tends to promote fat gain; the opposite is also true, to increase fat loss, one risks increasing muscle loss. This may account for some degree of the association of muscle loss during dieting. Ketogenic diets restrict carbohydrate intake to 10 to 20 grams per day.
Will following a ketogenic diet reduce muscle gains or promote muscle loss? Sadly, it appears this may be the case, particularly for drug-free bodybuilders. Ketogenic diets cause much lower blood insulin levels than normal. High levels of insulin activate the mTOR pathway and increases muscle growth. Studies in children on ketogenic diets have shown that they experience growth impairments in height and mass.
Very low-carbohydrate diets increase muscle loss in drug-free bodybuilders. The loss of anabolic/anti-catabolic signaling from reduced insulin concentrations, along with increased thyroid hormone activity (a catabolic hormone), and reduced resting testosterone levels, combine to promote muscle loss and inhibit muscle gains.
In recent professional bodybuilding shows, some athletes failed to reach former levels of competitiveness. No names will be mentioned out of respect for the efforts and frustration these men endured. Some of these athletes followed a ketogenic plan. Even for drug-enhanced bodybuilders, a ketogenic diet may produce a minor but significant deficit that can mean the difference between winning and losing.
When dieting, people seek the fastest and most effective way to lose fat. For athletes and bodybuilders, ketogenic dieting is counterproductive. Muscle loss is too high a price to pay for reduced fat.
References
Adam-Perrot A, Clifton P, et al. Low-carbohydrate diets: nutritional and physiological aspects. Obes Rev, 2006 Feb;7(1):49-58.
Bolster DR, Jefferson LS, et al. Regulation of protein synthesis associated with skeletal muscle hypertrophy by insulin-, amino acid- and exercise-induced signalling. Proc Nutr Soc, 2004 May;63(2):351-6.
Langfort JL, Zarzeczny R, et al. The effect of low-carbohydrate diet on the pattern of hormonal changes during incremental, graded exercise in young men. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab, 2001 Jun;11(2):248-57.
Matsakas A, Patel K. Intracellular signalling pathways regulating the adaptation of skeletal muscle to exercise and nutritional changes. Histol Histopathol, 2009 Feb;24(2):209-22.
McCarthy JJ, Esser KA. Anabolic and catabolic pathways regulating skeletal muscle mass. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care, 2010 May;13(3):230-5.
McDaniel SS, Rensing NR, et al. The ketogenic diet inhibits the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) pathway. Epilepsia, 2011 Mar;52(3):e7-e11.
Neal EG, Chaffe HM, et al. Growth of children on classical and medium-chain triglyceride ketogenic diets. Pediatrics, 2008 Aug;122(2):e334-40.
Weinheimer EM, Sands LP, et al. A systematic review of the separate and combined effects of energy restriction and exercise on fat-free mass in middle-aged and older adults: implications for sarcopenic obesity. Nutr Rev, 2010 Jul;68(7):375-88.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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blackcomaro wrote: »Thats interesting im not eating in surplus and gainung lean muscle
What's your secret?0 -
blackcomaro wrote: »Thats interesting im not eating in surplus and gainung lean muscle
What's your secret?
I am thinking Recomp. But it would be interesting to see if they have a dexa.0 -
Carbs are actually very important during a bulk as they help build muscle, prevent breakdown and give you energy for your workouts.. you definitely do not want to neglect them. As long as you are around 0.8-1g protein per lb lean body mass, any more than that will really not offer any added benefit for muscle building.
This. More protein above the recommended dose, doesn't equate to building more muscle.
The variance is age. The older we get and less testosterone we produce, the more protien and better quality at that we do need to achieve muscle synthesis efficiently.
Hence meeting the recommended dose.0
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