Squats

nlwrfa

So my trainer is pissing me off... she has one month to listen to what I want to work on. I have been with her for 3 months... my deadlifts have improved greatly, so has my bench and overhead press. My squat? Yea... I'm still struggling doing box squats with body weight... why? Because we haven't done any squatting in these past 3 months.

Here's my question... I'll be starting with StrongLifts if she fails to listen to me and really work on squats that she has been neglecting, even after telling her multiple times I want to work on them. The overhead press, bench, deadlift and rows I already know what I can do for 5x5 so I was just going to start with those on the program. Since I cannot even squat my *kitten* down to a box for a 3x10 (I do fine up until rep 4 or 5 so I think I can manage a 5x5 with a week or two more).... should I do goblet squats? Is that an effective way to increase weight to a barbell eventually? How different would it be to go from a 40lb dumbbell (when I get to that 40 lb dumb bell eventually that is) to switching to a 45 barbell on my back?

Edit: I also have access to a leg press if that would be more beneficial than a goblet squat... but I can only do about 200 on a leg press (I weigh 295 and trying to lose weight)

jlhflex

Have you ever tried front squats? Similar to goblet squats except the weight is focused across the front shoulders. Great exercise if you start with the bar only or even a light stick. It will help teach form and keeping the back inline and knees from hyperextending.
If you do start with goblet squats, and feel comfortable, you won't have that hard of time switching to shoulder weighted squats. The Dynamics are the same but muscle play is slightly different. This is the same for leg press. I love leg press but not same function as squats. Squats use the entire body while leg press focuses on the legs only. So you will strengthen the legs but not the core. If you do go from leg press to squats, you'll still have to strengthen the core in order to manage the weight on your back. Anyway hope that helps some. Good luck with your trainer.

nlwrfa

@jlhflex unfortunately I think it's a strength issue. I've tried front squats and I just can't get back up. I actually feel worse doing front squats cause I feel like they pull me forward and off balance. I feel fine with form as far as just body weight squats.. don't feel like I have a mobility issue as I can get down and hold as well. I can knock out those first 4-5 squats with really good form actually from what she and others I've asked have said. But add weight and my knees get all wonky. I've tried holding DB's out to my side and that just got in the way of everything and wonderful world of Google and the term "squats" brought up goblet squats.

Should I do both goblet squats then for the core strength of a squat and then leg press for sheer leg strength to get me up?

LiftHeavyThings27105

Also, keep in mind that Front Squats are on a totally different plane from Back Squats and it is really strongly suggested to start doing Front Squats with very light weight. I can Back Squat a good bit, and I did Front Squats with 135lbs on at first and was like "Heck no" and went down to 95lbs.

I will ask - how is your hip flexibility | mobility?

And, what accessory work are you doing for squats? How are your adductors? What are adductors? Your inner thigh. So, yes - you sit in that dreaded device with your legs spread and bring your knees together. That movement is working your adductors. The opposite movement works your abductors.....

How is your form with the Back Squat? I will be honest - I have really great form with Back Squats but that form came at a heavy price. I did just about everything wrong - form-wise - that someone can do. Did the same thing with Dead Lifts.

And, where is the problem with the Back Squat? There are "sticking points" for each movement. Where you are breaking down will tell your trainer EXACTLY where the problem(s) is(are).....just saying.

Bracing - you know this from Dead Lifts - is ALL IMPORTANT with the squat. How are you there?

PowerliftingMom

What shoes are you wearing for squats?

nlwrfa

@PowerliftingMom I normally wear chucks for lifting. I've tried also going barefoot as well. I really just think it's an issue of my legs are to weak to get my heavy *kitten* back up standing again. Its a hard 200 to get on the leg press and I weigh 291 well 290 today

I can get down correctly, butt first followed by just sitting back and down, chest up... I can get down like a toddler and sit there... just don't ask me to get back up. I've been box squatting off a 10 inch box with a 45 plate and a 25 plate stacked on it which gives me a 90 degree in my knee when I do body squats but after the 4th one...my knees get all wonky and form goes to hell

Chieflrg

NoraInMt wrote: »

@PowerliftingMom I normally wear chucks for lifting. I've tried also going barefoot as well. I really just think it's an issue of my legs are to weak to get my heavy *kitten* back up standing again. Its a hard 200 to get on the leg press and I weigh 291 well 290 today

I can get down correctly, butt first followed by just sitting back and down, chest up... I can get down like a toddler and sit there... just don't ask me to get back up. I've been box squatting off a 10 inch box with a 45 plate and a 25 plate stacked on it which gives me a 90 degree in my knee when I do body squats but after the 4th one...my knees get all wonky and form goes to hell

I would ditch box squats and do empty bar ball back squats. You'll get rebound from your hamstrings that will assist your progress of strength. Box squats are not for novices in general. You might also consider doing less sets in the SL program, it has way more volume than needed for adaptation for a novice and three sets will give to faster recovery for your next session.

*Not that squating in Chucks is wrong, but squat shoes will actually make squatting easier in general as it helps with possibly mobility issues and gives you a better lever in your momentum arm. Barefoot is really not the best choice for most, especially in the squat.

nlwrfa

@Chiefrgb i should do them even if I can't get parallel to get back up and then just work on getting parallel with the bar, and then once i can get parallel add weight is what i'm getting? I want nothing more than to be able to do the bar... but I also want to do it correctly.

Packerjohn

I would suggest not adding any weight to squats, until you can own the movement with bodyweight. Goblet squats would be a great start (just pretend you are holding a dumbbell/kettlebell).

Saw this tip on goblet squats from Dan John.

"Most people still don’t Goblet Squat right and looking at the idiocy in most books and magazines, I’m certain we are not going to see much progress. But, do this for me: at the bottom position, take a moment to drive your knees out with your elbows. Ah, feel that stretch. Now, grind back up. Sure, the stretch is good for you, like Mom used to say. But, the pause also stops you from rebounding and it makes you squeeze your way back up."

Also, how is your core strength? Squats require strength in this area. This video, again from Dan John is a nice sequence that will help with mobility as well as core strength.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0_DoicHg2E


Have you asked the trainer why you haven't worked on any form of squats for weeks?
Best of luck.

MikeinNOLA

IMHO if you can't knock out 10-15 perfect air squats, you're not ready to do weighted back squats...even with an empty barbell.

keep working box squats, add some step ups (working towards a 20" step) and keep deadlifting as much as you can.

And remember your trainer works for you. If they can't effectively explain why they aren't working your squat mobility and strength...you probably need a new trainer.

nlwrfa

She said that we weren't working on squats due to the competition I signed up for... which we focused only on what I needed to the competition. So upper body strength and deadlifts only for 4 weeks leading up to the event. Now that it's been a few weeks since that competition, I've told her I really wanted to start focusing on improving my squats multiple times.... yet we are still focusing mostly on upper body with once in awhile a dead lift.

SonyaCele

your trainer might not know how to teach you the barbell squat. which would explain why she hasnt had you do them in 3 months. Is she the local gym personal trainer? Most of them only know how to do basic stuff like circuit training movements. See if you can find a good strength coach. They'll have you squatting the bar on day 1.

nlwrfa

@SonyaCele No she's actually independent trainer at a Highland games, strongman, powerlifting gym (no cardio equipment just lifting).... but now that you mention it she did say she took a year to train herself for a proper squat. She also said that it'd take 2 weeks to get me under a bar... 3 weeks ago... and then she said her clients usually master the squat with a bar around 4 months in... which is magically 2 weeks out from now. Maybe you're right with the training and know how

SonyaCele

NoraInMt wrote: »

@SonyaCele No she's actually independent trainer at a Highland games, strongman, powerlifting gym (no cardio equipment just lifting).... but now that you mention it she did say she took a year to train herself for a proper squat. She also said that it'd take 2 weeks to get me under a bar... 3 weeks ago... and then she said her clients usually master the squat with a bar around 4 months in... which is magically 2 weeks out from now. Maybe you're right with the training and know how

unless you have some physical issues, There is no reason for you to not be under the bar by now, especially if you've already been working with her for 3 months.

nlwrfa

Sounds like she has a month then and I'm calling it. I'm heavy but I'm not outrageous. There are bigger people at the gym doing squats and I don't have any issues to report. I'll look into some shoes to help too if I go it alone so thank you for that suggestion and ty everyone for the help.

Packerjohn

SonyaCele wrote: »

NoraInMt wrote: »

@SonyaCele No she's actually independent trainer at a Highland games, strongman, powerlifting gym (no cardio equipment just lifting).... but now that you mention it she did say she took a year to train herself for a proper squat. She also said that it'd take 2 weeks to get me under a bar... 3 weeks ago... and then she said her clients usually master the squat with a bar around 4 months in... which is magically 2 weeks out from now. Maybe you're right with the training and know how

unless you have some physical issues, There is no reason for you to not be under the bar by now, especially if you've already been working with her for 3 months.

The OP is 290 pounds, unless she is very tall she would be classified as morbidly obese and we don't know her prior exercise history. Very likely to have some mobility issues that need to be addressed before loading a squat.

I would think the trainer would be addressing the mobility issues though.

nlwrfa

I'm 6'2 and was huge into water polo and swimming as well as hiking but it's been about 6 years for the water sports and about 1 year for the hiking (would average 3-4 hikes a week at 5-10 miles a hike)

Packerjohn

NoraInMt wrote: »

I'm 6'2 and was huge into water polo and swimming as well as hiking but it's been about 6 years for the water sports and about 1 year for the hiking (would average 3-4 hikes a week at 5-10 miles a hike)

Sorry for some reason I thought you were a female and therefore most likely shorter. Do you have an office job and/or sit a lot (student, driver, etc). Sitting is really rough on the hip mobility for squats.

nlwrfa

I am a female. I'm just 6'2. They make us tall in Montana I do have a desk job... but our desks raise to a standing position.. I usually stand for 3-4 hours out of my 8 hour day and we also have desk treadmills that I try to get an hour in a day (only have a limited amount of treadmills and most everyone walks on it)

Chieflrg

NoraInMt wrote: »

@Chiefrgb i should do them even if I can't get parallel to get back up and then just work on getting parallel with the bar, and then once i can get parallel add weight is what i'm getting? I want nothing more than to be able to do the bar... but I also want to do it correctly.

With a competent coach, I would be extremely surprised if you can't low bar squat a empty bar especially if your overweight opposed to under weight at parallel with good form. Sometimes a very large stomach will hinder depth, but that can be remedied with a wider stance if needed in most cases.

It's pretty rare thing if you are reasonably healthy...without swollen joints or limitation on your ROM, etc...

Not seeing your squat it's not possible to give you advice other than what has been said, but I would try to get as close to parallel as possible and go from there.

ritzvin

Ankle mobility maybe? Can you do it easily if you are in heels? What about with legs further apart and toes pointed more outward? If that is the case, weightlifting shoes (with a ~0.6" heel) can help (I've also seen suggestions to put plates under the heels). Also- wearing flats (as in 0-drop or negative-drop shoes) that day will help stretch out the PF-Achilles beforehand and help. And a wider stance with more outward pointing toes.